Ranger's animal companion

[Braininthejar2]

A stupid question (haven't considered it before because I didn't care for a ranger animal companion before)

If a wolf gets 2 bonus HD from being an animal companion, does it advance in size as he would through its normal advancement, or does it only get skills and feats? What about a +1 stat for hitting level 4?

[Gruftzwerg]

A stupid question (haven't considered it before because I didn't care for a ranger animal companion before)

If a wolf gets 2 bonus HD from being an animal companion, does it advance in size as he would through its normal advancement, or does it only get skills and feats? What about a +1 stat for hitting level 4?

imho no, cause the animal companion does give bonuses on top of base values and doesn't alter the base value of the stats. If you want an advanced wolf, you have to get one through other means (e.g. get it on later druid lvls, but than there are better options available...^^).

[Kelb_Panthera]

They don't increase in size because they're not "advancing" as an animal but they gain all the other benefits of increasing HD. They're effectively taking levels in an animal companion pseudo-class. However, a GM can, and IMO should, impose logical limitations on what feats can be taken and how the skill points can be spent based on the creature's animal level intelligence.

[Biggus]

Animal companion rules are under the Druid entry, PHB p.36. It says under "bonus HD" that they do get skills and feats for advancing as normal. It doesn't specifically mention the +1 ability score boost every 4 levels, but I think it's fairly safe to assume they get it too.

In the FAQ, again under Druid (p.14) it's stated that animal companions don't increase in size as they gain HD.

[Psyren]

Note that wolf companions do become Large size at 7th level, gaining 8 Str, 4 Con, -2 Dex and +2 natural armor.

[Elkad]

Note that wolf companions do become Large size at 7th level, gaining 8 Str, 4 Con, -2 Dex and +2 natural armor.

Cite?

Or are you swapping it for a Dire Wolf?

[Psyren]

Cite?

Or are you swapping it for a Dire Wolf?

CRB 54 in the Wolf companion entry.

...unless this is for 3.5 rather than Pathfinder, in which case I'll just slip out the back.

[Falontani]

while this seems like it is for 3.5; is there any direct rule citation confirming what we believe to be the case? FAQ is not technically RAW, and does not constitute a direct ruling. Likewise a druid statblock that happens to have a large wolf also would not qualify as statblocks are notoriously incorrect. However bringing them up helps us create a picture of what the RAI is and what the RAW was supposed to be (whether it is or is not).

As far as I know the only rule for the animal companion for this is:

Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice (see the Monster Manual).

nowhere in this text does it prohibit nor make implicit the rule for an animal growing in size. It does not stat that these HD are animal HD, but do not call attention to what they are. They do not call out any sort of ruling on what exactly the HD are, and whether or not the animal keeps them, nor what happens to the animal if the druid is killed, or abandons it.

The animal is neither summoned nor called, so we don't know if the animal just poofs into nonexistence the moment the druid releases an animal companion. Familiars have rules in Tome and Blood, paladin mounts have rules right in the entry, but the druid animal companion has no such rules.

[Gruftzwerg]

nowhere in this text does it prohibit nor make implicit the rule for an animal growing in size. It does not stat that these HD are animal HD, but do not call attention to what they are. They do not call out any sort of ruling on what exactly the HD are, and whether or not the animal keeps them, nor what happens to the animal if the druid is killed, or abandons it.

The animal is neither summoned nor called, so we don't know if the animal just poofs into nonexistence the moment the druid releases an animal companion. Familiars have rules in Tome and Blood, paladin mounts have rules right in the entry, but the druid animal companion has no such rules.

Different types of HD:


Untyped bonus HD != Racial HD

Since they are not the same, you can't apply rules for extra RHD to it and thus no free goodies, sry

[Biggus]

FAQ is not technically RAW, and does not constitute a direct ruling.

Ah, I was waiting for someone to say that. AFAIK, no there's no technically-official ruling on animal companion size, the FAQ is the nearest thing we have in this case.

[liquidformat]

Different types of HD:


Untyped bonus HD != Racial HD

Since they are not the same, you can't apply rules for extra RHD to it and thus no free goodies, sry

Actually it does, there are enough sources that use monster’s Hit Dice in place of racial Hit Dice to conclude that monster’s Hit Dice = Racial Hit Dice. 3.0 commonly used the term monster hit dice instead of racial and 3.5 didn't do a great job of updating nomenclature.

[Gruftzwerg]

Actually it does, there are enough sources that use monster’s Hit Dice in place of racial Hit Dice to conclude that monster’s Hit Dice = Racial Hit Dice. 3.0 commonly used the term monster hit dice instead of racial and 3.5 didn't do a great job of updating nomenclature.

MHD was just renamed to RHD due to the process that monsters did become playable. Doesn't change the fact that AC still get "bonus HD" and that it doesn't give you the "permission" to use it for animal growing.

d&d is a permission based game. If the game doesn't tell you that you may do it, you probably may not do it.

e.g.
Take any true dragon and apply templates with additional RHD:
Does the dragon now get all his other racial bonuses for those extra hd?
BAB, skillpoints, feats yeah, but i doesn't get any of the special bonuses the dragon would get at that RHD lvl (spells, special qualities...).
Otherwise a Dragons would always stack up templates up to their RHD for free and that is not the chase.

When you invest money and buy a BMW car you get BMW car and not a Mercedes..
Likewise if you ordered bonus HD, you don't get racial HD bonuses. That simple.

You may not imply things into text that is not there. And nothing indicates that you have permission for that.

[liquidformat]

MHD was just renamed to RHD due to the process that monsters did become playable. Doesn't change the fact that AC still get "bonus HD" and that it doesn't give you the "permission" to use it for animal growing.

d&d is a permission based game. If the game doesn't tell you that you may do it, you probably may not do it.

e.g.
Take any true dragon and apply templates with additional RHD:
Does the dragon now get all his other racial bonuses for those extra hd?
BAB, skillpoints, feats yeah, but i doesn't get any of the special bonuses the dragon would get at that RHD lvl (spells, special qualities...).
Otherwise a Dragons would always stack up templates up to their RHD for free and that is not the chase.

I am not sure what you are even talking about here but you are wrong, sure the rules on dragons gaining class levels and rhd are very screwy since the time component of their growth doesn't work well with the level growth of players. But there is an entire book that does a deep dive into how they grow and gain CL/RHD.

And no D&D isn't a game of permissions, it is a game of specific over rules general and if there is a gap in the rules then it is up to the dm to decide. If it was a game of permissions we wouldn't have these boards where everyone argues endlessly.

If you instead made a claim of specific trumps general, saying that the Animal Companion rules specify exactly what is gained then I might buy it. However, there is nothing that leads me to believe that this is a case of specific overriding general, the bonus HD entry is simply explaining how animal HD work there are no overriding words like 'only' used instead reminder words like 'remember'.

[ZamielVanWeber]

According to a now difficult to access to Skip William's Rules of the Game animal companions do not increase in size when they have what would normally be enough HD. I have the URL by trying to manipulate it on my phone is annoying as all get out.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you instead made a claim of specific trumps general, saying that the Animal Companion rules specify exactly what is gained then I might buy it. However, there is nothing that leads me to believe that this is a case of specific overriding general, the bonus HD entry is simply explaining how animal HD work there are no overriding words like 'only' used instead reminder words like 'remember'.

1. you need always a permission

even if it does come to "Specific beats General". Because that "specific rule" did give you the permission. Nothing that impacts the game rules works without permission.

2. Where is your specific permission?
You don't have any. You have a specific rule for "Bonus HD" which doesn't alter "Racial HD", it alters your "total HD". Unless you imply (homebrew) permissions that are not given by the text it doesn't work out.


It's clear if you apply the rules. There is nothing to debate about unless you can provide specific permissions.

[liquidformat]

1. you need always a permission

even if it does come to "Specific beats General". Because that "specific rule" did give you the permission. Nothing that impacts the game rules works without permission.

2. Where is your specific permission?
You don't have any. You have a specific rule for "Bonus HD" which doesn't alter "Racial HD", it alters your "total HD". Unless you imply (homebrew) permissions that are not given by the text it doesn't work out.


It's clear if you apply the rules. There is nothing to debate about unless you can provide specific permissions.

Sorry but no, you use general rules unless told otherwise by specific rules, that is the way the game works. If the game worked how you claim then every class and prc would need to tell you specifically that you get a feat at level 1 and every 3 levels after or you wouldn't get those feats. Similarly every class/prc entry would have to explicitly say you get bonus stat point every 4 levels and give a breakdown of wealth inside of every entry or you would get them. General rules are there to be general and only change when a more specific rule tells you otherwise. That is how the game works and what you are claiming throws the game on its head.

General rule says you gain a bonus stat point every four levels, monster entry says you gain size with x number of rhd, that is the general rule, you are to use the general rule unless told otherwise.

Furthermore, my hard copy Monster Manual which was one of the early 3.5 printings still uses the term Monster hit dice so I think it is safe to make the small leap saying the monster hit dice specifically called out inside of Animal Companion Bonus HD of my equally old PHB can be used interchangeably with racial hit dice. Animal Companion bonus hd uses soft language throughout 'remember that' and 'as normal' no where does it switch to things like 'may only' or 'except for' which are commonplace inside of specific rules; furthermore, the phb specifically needs to give enough information so that it can be used independently of other rulebooks hence why it redefines what animal monster/racial hit dice give you. Given all that I don't see a reason to exclude size changes and stat bonuses that go along with increased rhd...

[Gruftzwerg]

Sorry but no, you use general rules unless told otherwise by specific rules, that is the way the game works. If the game worked how you claim then every class and prc would need to tell you specifically that you get a feat at level 1 and every 3 levels after or you wouldn't get those feats. Similarly every class/prc entry would have to explicitly say you get bonus stat point every 4 levels and give a breakdown of wealth inside of every entry or you would get them. General rules are there to be general and only change when a more specific rule tells you otherwise. That is how the game works and what you are claiming throws the game on its head.
I don't get what you are reading into my post? I never implied anything like that.


General rule says you gain a bonus stat point every four levels, monster entry says you gain size with x number of rhd, that is the general rule, you are to use the general rule unless told otherwise.
Yeah the general rule do give you permissions in the first place that you can gain X if you have enough "RHD", not any kind of HD


Furthermore, my hard copy Monster Manual which was one of the early 3.5 printings still uses the term Monster hit dice so I think it is safe to make the small leap saying the monster hit dice specifically called out inside of Animal Companion Bonus HD of my equally old PHB can be used interchangeably with racial hit dice. Animal Companion bonus hd uses soft language throughout 'remember that' and 'as normal' no where does it switch to things like 'may only' or 'except for' which are commonplace inside of specific rules; furthermore, the phb specifically needs to give enough information so that it can be used independently of other rulebooks hence why it redefines what animal monster/racial hit dice give you. Given all that I don't see a reason to exclude size changes and stat bonuses that go along with increased rhd...

I'm not picking on 3.0>3.5 thinks like MHD and RHD which is obvious if you know the transition between them. I am talking about two different type of HD defined in the game, namely Racial Hit Dice and Bonus Hit Dice. Two different things. You can't add both together and claim it to be Racial Hit Dice. The Animal Companion feat doesn't tell you to treat the bonus HD as Racial Hit Dice so you do not have any permission to do so.

You are always avoiding my points while reading things into my post that are not there. pls read more carefully..



When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or ranger’s) animal companion as the master’s level goes up, does the animal get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in the MM, an “advanced” wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large?



An animal companion doesn’t get bigger when it adds extra Hit Dice for the master’s levels. The advancement entries for creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds


everything tells you, NO.
PS: I hope I don't sound rude. Not my intention. I'm just a lil upset cause you read thing into my post that I didn't claimed at all ;)

[Falontani]

snip

I am neither agreeing with nor disagreeing with your above post; merely pointing out (again) that the FAQ that you linked is not RAW. It might be RAI.

[liquidformat]

I don't get what you are reading into my post? I never implied anything like that.


Yeah the general rule do give you permissions in the first place that you can gain X if you have enough "RHD", not any kind of HD



I'm not picking on 3.0>3.5 thinks like MHD and RHD which is obvious if you know the transition between them. I am talking about two different type of HD defined in the game, namely Racial Hit Dice and Bonus Hit Dice. Two different things. You can't add both together and claim it to be Racial Hit Dice. The Animal Companion feat doesn't tell you to treat the bonus HD as Racial Hit Dice so you do not have any permission to do so.

You are always avoiding my points while reading things into my post that are not there. pls read more carefully..


everything tells you, NO.
PS: I hope I don't sound rude. Not my intention. I'm just a lil upset cause you read thing into my post that I didn't claimed at all ;)

What I have been saying this whole time is Animal Companion Bonus HD are RHD because of the last words in the text calling them monster hit dice. If it just said hit dice I would agree with you 100%, however, when I am finding rules referencing creature hit dice, monster hit dice or racial hit dice they are all refering to the same thing unless you can point to a source that says otherwise the animal companion bonus Hit Dice is in fact giving RHD not merely unnamed hd.

[Gruftzwerg]

What I have been saying this whole time is Animal Companion Bonus HD are RHD because of the last words in the text calling them monster hit dice. If it just said hit dice I would agree with you 100%, however, when I am finding rules referencing creature hit dice, monster hit dice or racial hit dice they are all refering to the same thing unless you can point to a source that says otherwise the animal companion bonus Hit Dice is in fact giving RHD not merely unnamed hd.

k, lets try to break this down..



Bonus HD

Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

Gives you the permission to give your Animal Companion additional "base attack & save bonuses, skill points and feats" for those "Bonus HD" as if they where Monster Hit Dice. Nowhere does it mention that you treat Bonus HD as MHD "for all purposes" (a term used in 3.5 for such situation as example).

Further, where is the rule stand that wolfs get bigger with additional HD? If I look up Wolf (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm) I don't see anything indicating that they would increase in size with additional HD.

I hope you are not referring to:

Increased Hit Dice

Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.

"usually" implies that is not a general rule. Maybe common, but not anything that is automatically given for having extra HD, nor a requirement.

"bigger" != increase in size category
What does "bigger" mean? Bigger doesn't have to be always height. I can be just muscle mass that makes you bigger than others. We are not talking about being "being taller" here. Just bigger. Further, nothing that indicates a size category change. While there are creatures like Dragons, who have exceptional rules, explicitly noting when they get size category changes due to more RHD.


If you want, sure your animal companion may get "bigger" if you really want to. A few inch maybe, but no size category change unless you can provide rules to back it up.

Try quoting the rules you are referring to pls. It's a headache to guess which rule passage in which book/SRD passage you might be talking about.

[liquidformat]

Further, where is the rule stand that wolfs get bigger with additional HD? If I look up Wolf (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm) I don't see anything indicating that they would increase in size with additional HD.


Please see advancement section of your link for wolf size increase...



A creature may become larger when its Hit Dice are increased (the new size is noted parenthetically in the monster’s Advancement entry).

A size increase affects any special ability the creature has that is affected by size. Increased size also affects a creature’s ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage values as indicated on the tables below.

Hum to be honest it has been a while since I last read the size increase rule, taking a look at that I question whether any increase in HD at all increases the monster's size and not just racial/monster/creature hit dice. It is clearly talking about hit dice in general and not monster, racial, or creature hit dice...

[Gruftzwerg]

Please see advancement section of your link for wolf size increase...

Thx, missed the info so far..


Hum to be honest it has been a while since I last read the size increase rule, taking a look at that I question whether any increase in HD at all increases the monster's size and not just racial/monster/creature hit dice. It is clearly talking about hit dice in general and not monster, racial, or creature hit dice...

"Increased Hit Dice" is described at the top of the page (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm).


Increased Hit Dice

Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.

Imho the creature needs to increase its HD itself and not for another source. It doesn't say "can advance when their Hit Dice is increased". "By increasing their" implies for me that it has to do it on its own. But your Animal Companion isn't increasing anything by itself. You/The owner does give the bonus HD. Increased HD is defined in this way.

[liquidformat]

Thx, missed the info so far..



"Increased Hit Dice" is described at the top of the page (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm).


Imho the creature needs to increase its HD itself and not for another source. It doesn't say "can advance when their Hit Dice is increased". "By increasing their" implies for me that it has to do it on its own. But your Animal Companion isn't increasing anything by itself. You/The owner does give the bonus HD. Increased HD is defined in this way.

I am really not seeing much of a difference between "when their Hit Dice is increased" and "By increasing their Hit Dice" neither is specific enough to have a meaningful difference, if said 'can advance by increasing their racial/creature/monster Hit Dice' sure I would give it to you but it does not.

The way the rules are setup animal companions receive no experience for their contribution to the group, instead they are given an ability through their owners class feature in order to advance their hit dice. It is kind of a catch 22 you say they must advance their hit dice on their own to be able to take advantage of their standard 'advancement' and ability score increases but they are made incapable of doing so by being a companion and are instead advanced as a class feature. I am not seeing a meaningful difference between the two advancement modes.

[Gruftzwerg]

I am really not seeing much of a difference between "when their Hit Dice is increased" and "By increasing their Hit Dice" neither is specific enough to have a meaningful difference, if said 'can advance by increasing their racial/creature/monster Hit Dice' sure I would give it to you but it does not.
One requires the subject to be active itself/self responsible, the other would not. And gaining bonuses from a druid is passive and not active from the Animal Companions POV.


The way the rules are setup animal companions receive no experience for their contribution to the group, instead they are given an ability through their owners class feature in order to advance their hit dice. It is kind of a catch 22 you say they must advance their hit dice on their own to be able to take advantage of their standard 'advancement' and ability score increases but they are made incapable of doing so by being a companion and are instead advanced as a class feature. I am not seeing a meaningful difference between the two advancement modes.

Let you ask you similar question. When a Bard uses Inspire Greatness to give a normal player character Bonus HD, does he gain all the things associated with extra lvl or only those thing mentioned in the text ?
(Inspire Greatness: "..a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant. ")
You only get what the text mentions.

Druid AC Bonus HD says:

Bonus HD

Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.
The ability explains what the bonus HD gives you. And the last sentence "skill points and feats as normal for advancing a monster's Hit Dice": It doesn't say to treat/count the Bonus HD as Monster Hit Dice, it only says that your get the bonus (skill points and feats) like a normally advancing a monsters Hit Dice would do. Nowhere is mentioned that you get all the goodies associated with "Increased Hit Dice". You only get the things mentioned in the ability.