Fighter Build question. Shooting a hand crossbow from shield hand?

[Nikushimi]

So. Here's a bit of a weird question, but maybe not that weird, but first I hope I put the right prefix on this since it is technically a rules question, but yeah...

Anyways, so I had a character concept in the first stages. Basically designing them.

They are a fighter who uses typical sword and board mechanics in a sort of fluid style (was thinking on making them a Battle Master or something), but anyways my thought was this.

In one on ones they would use their sword and shield to basically attack and bash them with the shield. Almost like dual wielding their sword and shield in tandem as they fight their opponent.

So they use their sword and shield for close range, but then fire their hand crossbow to an enemy in the distance.

The scenario I am imagining is this.

They are fighting an enemy and they finish them off with a sword strike. An enemy is off in the distance or running away. They move past or through the enemy they were fighting in melee (in a sort of moving strike motion) and then reach to their side for their hand crossbow and draw, aim, and shoot at the fleeing/distant enemy.

Or even turn around to shoot at someone who is off behind them after the sword strike.

Sort of dual wielding the sword and hand crossbow in tandem, but the problem with this is that in melee they would have a shield strapped to one arm.

Can they, with the shield arm, grab the hand crossbow and shoot it or is it impossible via rules and I would have to drop the shield or put the shield away?

I ask cause there are some shields in real life that you CAN in fact still grip things with your hand cause the strap itself doesn't really stop you from grabbing things, and I remember, but my memory could be ****, that some shields allowed you to have it equipped to gain the benefit of the AC boost as well as grab things still with it, but I am unsure if this is still possible in 5e.

Please let me know. I'd appreciate it.

I'd also appreciate any advice on how to build such a character.

Would dual wielding feats benefit this character concept, would crossbow expert, or some kind of shield feat? Let me know. Thank you.

They will most likely be a human for race if that matters, and probably the variant to get a feat at level 1.

[RogueJK]

A shield ties up that hand. You can't use that hand to fire a hand crossbow. You also cannot use that hand to load a hand crossbow either, since crossbows have the "Ammunition" property, which states that you must have a free hand to load a hand crossbow.

A better option would be to use a one-handed thrown weapon instead, like a dagger, javelin, spear, etc. In the scenario you described, if you have two attacks, you could make one melee attack that finishes off the first enemy, then drop your melee weapon for free, use your one free Object Interaction to draw your thrown weapon, and use your second attack to throw it at the ranged enemy.


As for "bashing" with a shield, the Shield Master feat allows you to shove a creature with your shield as a bonus action.

Otherwise, there's not a standard option that would allow you to "dual wield" a shield and make offhand "shield bash" attacks with it, like there was in earlier editions. In order to do so in 5E, you'd have to convince your DM to allow you to treat the shield as an improvised weapon, in which case it would do 1d4 damage. You'd also have to convince your DM to allow it to be considered a "Light" weapon too, unless you invest in the Dual Wielder feat.

[JackPhoenix]

If your hand wields a shield, it's not free to wield a weapon (or cast spells, or do whatever).

Doffing a shield takes an action, so you can't drop it either. You can drop the sword, but you'll still need free hand to load the crossbow, so...

[MeeposFire]

You can get around the reloading issue by having an artificer use an infusion that allows you to fire without ammo and without reloading. You will still need to use your weapon hand to fire though as the shield still uses your other hand.

[Nikushimi]

Hmm, that's disappointing to hear. I would think that if you had a small enough shield. Like a round medium or buckler type shield you'd be able to still grip something like in previous editions.

Maybe I can get one of my DM's (I have two 5e dm's) to approve such thing, but maybe not.

I also thought I read somewhere that you could "dual wield" per se with a sword and shield using the shield as a type of weapon, but maybe I read that somewhere else that wasn't 5e.

Thanks.

One other question that is probably up to a DM. Is it possible to get a crossbow, or a mechanism that shoots, built into a shield and or gauntlet? Might be possible then. I'll have to think about it.

Thanks for the help!

[Addaran]

In 5ed, all shields are +2 AC and prevent you from using the hand. The buckler letting you use your hand was a 3/3.5 thing. (maybe 4ed too, haven't played much )

You can dual wield a sword and a hand-crossbow, but after the first shot, you don't have a free hand to reload it. RAW, there's no ranged weapon that can be fully used with only one hand. For that, you need thrown weapon, but they usually have either shorter range and/or smaller damage dice.

[MeeposFire]

In 5ed, all shields are +2 AC and prevent you from using the hand. The buckler letting you use your hand was a 3/3.5 thing. (maybe 4ed too, haven't played much )

You can dual wield a sword and a hand-crossbow, but after the first shot, you don't have a free hand to reload it. RAW, there's no ranged weapon that can be fully used with only one hand. For that, you need thrown weapon, but they usually have either shorter range and/or smaller damage dice.

4e had a light shield that would let you use the hand but you still could not wield a weapon in it (not counting the shield itself if it was a spiked shield) but it also had only a +1 to AC rather than the +2 the heavy shield had.

AD&D had numerous kind of shields and some would allow you to hold weapons and bucklers could be used with bows.

D&D also had different sized shields though each had the same defensive value though they were all different sizes and the smaller ones would allow more uses for your hand.

[da newt]

In order to get a mechanic in 5e that is similar to the buckler of old, you can take the dual wielder feat to gain +1AC while wielding 2 weapons. Utilizing a weapon that can be thrown, and you are pretty much where you want to be - a sword in one hand, +1 AC, and a thrown weapon too (javelin, spear, axe, dagger, ...) but with no shield.

If you are OK with sacrificing your ST/DEX bonus from damage with your 'offhand' weapon attack, you can take defensive fighting style for +1 AC and end up with the same AC that a shield would provide.

You can build around DEX or ST depending on weapon choices.

Dual wielding is thematically cool, but mechanically PAM + shield + spear + dueling FS is superior.

[Nikushimi]

Appreciate the info and suggestions.

I may have to rethink the idea then since I had wanted to have a character with this design, but it seems by the rules that it wouldn't work unless I dropped/sheathed my sword to draw the crossbow as well as take off the shield.

I had imagined there was some rule or feat that may have allowed for such a thing, but that's a shame.

I could always just dual wield with a Sword and Hand Crossbow. Though no feat or martial type helps that since Dueling only works if you have no other weapon in your other hand, and since a Hand Crossbow is technically a weapon I wouldn't gain the benefit. Same with Dual Wielding feat since they have to be both melee weapons.

I don't really want a thrown weapon, though I have contemplated seeing how a knife throwing character would work, but from my search on the internet...they wouldn't.

Once my two DM's get more comfortable with 5e I may be able to see if they would be willing to work with me to create custom feats, or to adjust the Dual Wielding feat to accommodate that fighting style, but we'll see. Since one has only been DM'ing for roughly a year in 5e, and took several months break from it, and the other has maybe half a year of DM'ing 5e.

I would imagine something custom would be.

Bolt and Blade
You have trained to wield a one handed weapon and a hand crossbow in unison, gaining the following benefits.
-You can draw or stow both your one handed weapon and hand crossbow when you would normally only be able to draw or stow one.
-You have learned to reload your hand crossbow with one hand.
-When you take the attack action on your turn you may, as a bonus action, attack with your hand crossbow on the same or different target.
-Firing in melee with your hand crossbow does not impose disadvantage.

Now, this may be a bit strong and might need to be broken up, but feats are pretty strong.

Another one may be

Agile Shield
You have learned and adapted to the use of your shield, gaining the following benefits.
-You have learned how to adjust your grip in order to grab things with your shield arm. The object grabbed must be able to be gripped with one hand such as a one handed weapon or and object that can fit into your hand. I.e. a potion or stone/rock.
-Shields you use, except Tower Shields, have the Finesse property.
-As part of your attack action when you make a melee attack with your weapon you may also make an attack with your shield. The damage done is equal to 1d6 + either your STR or DEX modifier. This damage increases to 2d6 at 10th level and 3d6 at 17th level. You may only use this attack once per turn. If you have the extra attack feature that means you must choose which attack to use this with. It cannot be used with all of the extra attacks.

Just some quick feats. Probably overpowered, but just to get a feel for what might be useful in accomplishing this build? Would any of you homebrew something similar or no? Do you think something like being able to draw a one handed weapon with a shield, or reload with one hand or an occupied hand is too much? Maybe something like a roll to see if you do it right?

Sorry if I'm rambling. I'm also extremely tired so I could be talking out of my ass at the moment, lol.

[ProsecutorGodot]

snip

Bolt and Blade is just a slapping together of Dual Wielder and Crossbow Expert. Not much else to say other than I don't like the idea of taking your favorite parts out of two features and slapping them together to lower the cost associated with them.

Agile Shield could be interesting but not exactly balanced, the cost/benefit of having the +2 AC from a shield is a pretty large design point as far as balance goes. The second bullet point is problematic for two reasons, (1) Shields have no size categories, a shield is a shield (2) giving it the finesse property does nothing else other than allowing Rogues to use this attack for sneak attacks, which in itself has two issues because the attack you gain with the feat specifies that you can use strength or dex anyway and Rogues don't start with proficiency in shields. It doesn't need cantrip scaling either, it probably shouldn't even do more than 1d4 damage considering the feat all on its own allows you to use TWF and a Shield.

You're better off asking your DM for custom items in my opinion. My DM has allowed the crafting of a light crossbow made of mithril that is able to be wielded with one hand due to its extremely light weight and what is essentially a wrist strapped guard (calling it a shield or even a buckler is giving it too much credit) that can be used as a parrying tool with a weapon in hand, imagine it's a +1 to ac that doesn't occupy your hand but it takes your reaction to guard the attack. Seems a bit on the weaker side, but this is a relatively simple and inexpensive piece of equipment to make.

[Nikushimi]

Bolt and Blade is just a slapping together of Dual Wielder and Crossbow Expert. Not much else to say other than I don't like the idea of taking your favorite parts out of two features and slapping them together to lower the cost associated with them.

Agile Shield could be interesting but not exactly balanced, the cost/benefit of having the +2 AC from a shield is a pretty large design point as far as balance goes. The second bullet point is problematic for two reasons, (1) Shields have no size categories, a shield is a shield (2) giving it the finesse property does nothing else other than allowing Rogues to use this attack for sneak attacks, which in itself has two issues because the attack you gain with the feat specifies that you can use strength or dex anyway and Rogues don't start with proficiency in shields. It doesn't need cantrip scaling either, it probably shouldn't even do more than 1d4 damage considering the feat all on its own allows you to use TWF and a Shield.

You're better off asking your DM for custom items in my opinion. My DM has allowed the crafting of a light crossbow made of mithril that is able to be wielded with one hand due to its extremely light weight and what is essentially a wrist strapped guard (calling it a shield or even a buckler is giving it too much credit) that can be used as a parrying tool with a weapon in hand, imagine it's a +1 to ac that doesn't occupy your hand but it takes your reaction to guard the attack. Seems a bit on the weaker side, but this is a relatively simple and inexpensive piece of equipment to make.

Well, it was just a rough draft off the top of my head while I am extremely exhausted while my mind is running like a thousand gerbils on tiny little gerbil/hamster wheels. So, I may be running on fumes atm.

Mainly just spitballing.

As for shield size...while you're right and there isn't really "Size" for shields I find it hard to believe that all shields are the same in terms of appearance and use, but fair enough. Though it's a bit weird to have a buckler that's just as useful as a tower shield. Even though shields are just "shield" in the equipment section it's just a bit weird.

So those feats were mainly just quickly made on a tired mind. Balance wasn't really ironed out for them. If I was on more than just fumes I could have done better. It was mainly for an idea to see what people thought and how they would change them to make them doable to get the feel I was going for since I believe that there are those out there in this forum who may be better apt at creating things than I am, but yeah.

Oh, and for the finesse property. I mainly added that because the fighting style can be more about precision and hitting the right spot than just brute strength. Since finesse weapons allow you to use either strength or dexterity I added the part of "your str or dex modifier" and in fact is meant to be a fluid type fighting style rather than a brute force one.

[Aimeryan]

Did not read all of the thread, however, have you considered just fluffing that the character has an arm-attached buckler/heavily-armoured vambrace and uses that as part of their defence? Like, you don't get the +2 AC of an actual shield (since that is balanced* against being wielded with a 2H weapon), but you are getting the fantasy still.

*I'm not sure I would actually say 1H+Shield is balanced against 2H when feats come into play, but...

[saucerhead]

I can't see any version of this getting approved unless it is debilitating. The average DM will just say no, and the exception would probably say you'd have disadvantage to hit with the hand crossbow and once you've shot it, can't count your shield towards your AC for the next three rounds. Stick with the shield and let someone else in the party deal with the missile weapons.

[Nikushimi]

Did not read all of the thread, however, have you considered just fluffing that the character has an arm-attached buckler/heavily-armoured vambrace and uses that as part of their defence? Like, you don't get the +2 AC of an actual shield (since that is balanced* against being wielded with a 2H weapon), but you are getting the fantasy still.

*I'm not sure I would actually say 1H+Shield is balanced against 2H when feats come into play, but...

Well, that was an idea I put up above is building the hand crossbow into a shield or something. Might be a possibility, but something my character would have to work towards, not start with.


I can't see any version of this getting approved unless it is debilitating. The average DM will just say no, and the exception would probably say you'd have disadvantage to hit with the hand crossbow and once you've shot it, can't count your shield towards your AC for the next three rounds. Stick with the shield and let someone else in the party deal with the missile weapons.

If you are referring to those "feats" I made up when I was exhausted and on the spot...well, I didn't exactly think them through that hard and just put an extremely rough idea out there for something and see what people may change about them to make them viable. Feats are strong, but I don't want them broken. Thus, I was hoping some people on here with more knowledge than me may grant some insight in ways to change them or create a feat that might work with this character concept.

I imagine I am going to start out with a sword and shield character, and then later on see about getting a slit built into a shield that can shoot a bolt out of it with an auto reload process. I'm sure it could get customized and built. Gnomes exist for a reason, lol. Same with Dwarves. Crafty bastards. Lol.

But anyways, jokes aside, I may simply do that. Have something built into a shield and see where to go from there.

It's mainly just about theme. Since I have this character pictures in my head. I am not trying to be super op or anything, but just thematic.

[Quoz]

One relatively easy solution to some of the problems would be to get a shield with the cast off armor enchantment (away from book, but I believe it was one of the common magic items in Xanthar's) which would let you drop the shield without taking a whole action. Switching to a primary weapon with the thrown quality like a spear or trident could also allow for more fluid mixing of range and melee fighting as well.

Or if your stats would support it, take a small dip as a spell caster or magic initiate to grab a ranged cantrip. Most still require a free hand, but you can drop your weapon as a free action, cast the spell, then use your item interaction to pick it back up.

[JackPhoenix]

One relatively easy solution to some of the problems would be to get a shield with the cast off armor enchantment (away from book, but I believe it was one of the common magic items in Xanthar's) which would let you drop the shield without taking a whole action. Switching to a primary weapon with the thrown quality like a spear or trident could also allow for more fluid mixing of range and melee fighting as well.

Cast-off armor: You can doff this armor as an action.

It doesn't solve anything, unfortunately. And that's assuming it works on a shield in a first place, shields are.... weird. They are semi-separated form the rest of the armors in some ways (they are not worn, but wielded, they do not set your AC but give you a bonus, they occupy your hand, are a separate category for the purpose of magic items...)

[stoutstien]

Cast-off armor: You can doff this armor as an action.

It doesn't solve anything, unfortunately. And that's assuming it works on a shield in a first place, shields are.... weird. They are semi-separated form the rest of the armors in some ways (they are not worn, but wielded, they do not set your AC but give you a bonus, they occupy your hand, are a separate category for the purpose of magic items...)

I ended up labeling shields as adventuring gear to clean up understanding.

As far as OP question the artificer 2 lv dip is probably the easiest way to pull this off.