Is There A Pathfinder Version Of The Blood War Lore

[Bartmanhomer]

I just thought of something about the Blood War Lore, I know the Blood War Lore is in D&D 3.5. So I want to know is there's a Pathfinder version of the Blood War Lore?

[Psyren]

There's no huge philosophical or contractual conflict between devils and demons in Golarion. This is for a couple of reasons:

1) The Blood War is trademarked by WotC and is part of several of their published settings, so Paizo including an official version of it might invite lawsuits.

2) It's not really needed in Golarion (see below.)

The purpose of the Blood War in D&D is twofold: (a) it explains why, despite the fact that demons are infinite and the most numerous outsider, they haven't overrun the material and upper planes, and (b) it provides an in-universe reason why do-gooders would work alongside devils, thus giving them the chance to do what they do best, i.e. tempt mortals into falling.

In Golarion, rather than being opposed primarily or exclusively by devils, demons just fight everyone (including each other.) Their chaotic, short-sighted and self-destructive nature thus undermines their numerical advantage and keeps them from getting anything meaningful done without needing a Blood War. In addition, there are numerous types of fiend beyond the big three (demons, daemons, devils) as well, all with subtly or overtly conflicting goals and methods - asura, oni, demodands, divs, kytons, oni, qlippoths and rakshasas all have their own agendas and every single one can and has come into conflict with demons now and in the past. Demons are still the most numerous (the Abyss being the biggest plane in the cosmology and surrounding all the others) but that doesn't make them the most powerful or the most effective. Indeed, Daemons are actually a bigger threat due to their desire for utter annihilation, and more often you'll see devils and demons teaming up to take them on and keep them from eating the River of Souls that every afterlife needs, than you'll see devils and demons fighting one another.

Lastly, on Golarion itself, the Law/Chaos axis conflict tends to be more important than Good/Evil like it is in D&D. For example, Asmodeus (LE) and Iomedae (LG) get along better than he does with Calistria (CN) or Lamashtu (CE), to the point that Iomedans can worship openly in Cheliax while Calistrians can't, and Hellknights can be found among the worshipers of both.

[Eldonauran]

***snip**
Good stuff right there. +1000

The only thing I will add to what Psyren has already said is this: The Abyss is the largest plane, surrounding all others and having hidden pathways into all of them, save for Heaven (LG plane). It is effectively a barrier between the order of the outer sphere and the unknown realms beyond, which harbor all sorts of unimaginable entities eager to reach inside of it. This is my personal take on the matter, but I get the impressions of bubbles within bubbles that lead on to greater realities. To what end? I have no idea.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The purpose of the Blood War in D&D is twofold: [...] (b) it provides an in-universe reason why do-gooders would work alongside devils, thus giving them the chance to do what they do best, i.e. tempt mortals into falling.
[...]
Lastly, on Golarion itself, the Law/Chaos axis conflict tends to be more important than Good/Evil like it is in D&D. For example, Asmodeus (LE) and Iomedae (LG) get along better than he does with Calistria (CN) or Lamashtu (CE), to the point that Iomedans can worship openly in Cheliax while Calistrians can't, and Hellknights can be found among the worshipers of both.

Law vs. Chaos is the bigger deal in D&D as well. The Blood War is a continuation of the War of Law and Chaos that decided/solidified the state and arrangement of the multiverse, a War during which the tanar'ri had tenuous alliances with the eladrin on the Chaos side and the forces of Law were unified regardless of Good or Evil affiliation, and it's mostly a Lower Planes thing now because celestials are more willing to let bygones be bygones and the yugoloths are playing both sides to keep things going. Asmodeus and the rest of the Nine hate Demon Princes much more than any Upper Planar lords, to the point that they've never launched any concerted attack on any Upper Plane or group of celestials except in retaliation for an attack on Baator. And so on; pretty much everything in Planescape is more about Law vs. Chaos, really.

On Oerth, when a Far Realm incursion happened waaay back when, Pelor and Nerull were happy to team up to deal with it when they "had yet to form allegiances to Good or Evil in those days; they were most interested in maintaining the balance between Law and Chaos," and the Circle of Eight keep Good and Evil from being at each others' throats all the time. On Krynn, while everyone focuses on the supposed Good vs. Evil conflict, the Good, Neutral, and Evil gods actually get along okay (the three G/N/E moon gods of magic are siblings on good terms) while the real conflict is between the High God (a force of Law, with all the other gods falling in line beneath him) vs. the incarnation of Chaos and both Good and Evil forces lean heavily Lawful (both have authoritarian wizard orders, both have mirrored paladin and anti-paladin knightly orders, the gods have strict role divisions and numerical balance, etc.). On Eberron the whole Good-Evil alignment axis takes a backseat in a world where Evil priests can serve Good religions and vice-versa, while on Athas no one cares because they're too busy surviving.

The only setting that really seems to care about Good and Evil on the face of things is Forgotten Realms, with the Selûne vs. Shar creation myth, lots of stories about adventuring do-gooders vs. mustache-twirling villains, and all that, but at a godly level the Ao vs. Cyric conflict in the Avatar Crisis seemed a lot more Law vs. Chaos (much like the High God conflict in Dragonlance) than Good vs. Evil...and at a mortal level this is the setting that gave us hundreds of intrinsically-evil drow turning against their vile people to make the world a better place, after all. :smallamused:


(a) it explains why, despite the fact that demons are infinite and the most numerous outsider, they haven't overrun the material and upper planes,
[...]
In Golarion, rather than being opposed primarily or exclusively by devils, demons just fight everyone (including each other.) Their chaotic, short-sighted and self-destructive nature thus undermines their numerical advantage and keeps them from getting anything meaningful done without needing a Blood War. In addition, there are numerous types of fiend beyond the big three (demons, daemons, devils) as well, all with subtly or overtly conflicting goals and methods - asura, oni, demodands, divs, kytons, oni, qlippoths and rakshasas all have their own agendas and every single one can and has come into conflict with demons now and in the past. Demons are still the most numerous (the Abyss being the biggest plane in the cosmology and surrounding all the others) but that doesn't make them the most powerful or the most effective. Indeed, Daemons are actually a bigger threat due to their desire for utter annihilation, and more often you'll see devils and demons teaming up to take them on and keep them from eating the River of Souls that every afterlife needs, than you'll see devils and demons fighting one another.

This is all quite similar to Planescape as well, intentionally or not. The Abyss is full of Demon Princes fighting one another for supremacy despite the Blood War, and the demons would be even more impaired by infighting without a common foe to face. Rakshasas, demodands, and kytons are small but significant fiendish factions (in roughly that order of prominence), and going by the PF wiki asuras and qlippoths are essentially reflavored ancient Baatorians and obyriths, respectively. Daemons seem to be a badass-ified versions of yugoloths (Evil without Law or Chaos, check; live in a blasted wasteland, check; devils and demons occasionally uniting to deal with NE-related weirdness on Abaddon/Hades, check; big connection to Greco-Christian myth, with their leaders borrowing from Styx ferrymen and disease bringers, check and check), which all makes sense since yugoloths were called "daemons" in AD&D.

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The point of all that is not to "Well actually..." at Psyren's PF loredump, but to point out that once you look past the proper nouns, the lore around alignment, the planes, fiends, and all that is actually incredibly similar between D&D and PF; heck, they even both have a "near-immortal Lawful Neutral elemental-themed race from far in the past that went around mucking with lots of Prime worlds and leaving ruins around" equivalent, D&D's air-themed Vaati and PF's earth-themed Xiomorns.

The one big exception to all this is, of course, that PF lacks a Blood War--I'd speculate that a major in-setting reason for the difference is that in PF Rovagug was imprisoned while in D&D the Demon Queen of Chaos was beaten but able to flee, so she's kept sulking and stirring things up from her Abyssal layer/lair where Rovagug can't really do the same--but you can easily use D&D lore in PF by turning any Blood War battle-related fluff into the actions of certain devil or demon lords in isolation and vice versa for using PF lore in D&D, and by converting any Vaati/Demon Queen/Rod of Seven Parts/etc. references to equivalent Xiomorn/Rovagug/Dead Vault/etc. references.

[Buufreak]

1) The Blood War is trademarked by WotC and is part of several of their published settings, so Paizo including an official version of it might invite lawsuits.

This. Wotc is one of the most proficient companies at putting out a c&d, second only to disney. Thinking paizo, having worked with them in the past, wouldn't know that and being willing to push it isn't foolish, it's outright stupid.