Fun question: How would you make a first edition bard on the third edition?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Draco_Wolfgand
[In] the first edition…they were meant to be closer from their historical counterparts…. They were basically a prestige class before prestige classes were a thing….

I remember when the bard first came out. In a game where single-class progression was the rule, the bard was downright flabbergasting. I don’t recall the druidic aspect, though, just the fighter/rogue combination. Quite a heady concept for the day.


Originally Posted by Draco_Wolfgand
Or would you go through the simpler, more historically accurate path and make then just a druid/bard multiclass…?

I’d be sure to include Green Whisperer, because an obscure PrC that advances both druid and bard spellcasting is too much fun to pass up.

[Biggus]

I've often heard it said that the Fochlucan Lyrist prestige class (CAdv p.47) is an attempt to recreate the 1E Bard for 3E. It requires both Bard and Druid levels, and also evasion (so probably Rogue). If you've got any spare levels Green Whisperer (Dragon #311) is good as Palanan says, and maybe Arcane Hierophant (RotW p.108) too if you're going to epic.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I don’t recall the druidic aspect, though, just the fighter/rogue combination.


I've often heard it said that the Fochlucan Lyrist prestige class (CAdv p.47) is an attempt to recreate the 1E Bard for 3E. It requires both Bard and Druid levels, and also evasion (so probably Rogue).

Yep, the Fochlucan Lyrist is basically the 1e bard in PrC form. Fochlucan Lyrists have to be 10th-level neutral-aligned bard/rogue/druids (barring entry shenanigans), and the 1e bard was, well...


Bards begin play as fighters, and they must remain exclusively fighters until they have achieved at least the 5th level of experience. Anytime thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must change their class to that of thieves. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th level of ability, bards must leave off thieving and begin clerical studies as druids; but at this time they are actually bards and under druidical tutelage. Bards must fulfill the requirements in all the above classes before progressing to Bards Table 1. They must always remain neutral, but can be chaotic evil, good or lawful neutral if they wish.

...a minimum-10th-level neutral-aligned fighter/thief/druid, with bards of 1st through 3rd level being said to belong to the Fochlucan college.

[Palanan]

Aha, thanks for that quote. I had completely forgotten about the druidic aspect, but I think at the time I was hung up on the fighter/thief transition.

The Fochlucan lyrist makes a lot more sense now, since it had always felt a bit arbitrary. Makes me want to revisit that PrC.

Out of curiosity, what’s the date on your 1E PHB?

[ZamielVanWeber]

The Fochlucan lyrist makes a lot more sense now, since it had always felt a bit arbitrary. Makes me want to revisit that PrC.

I had a build for that I nicknamed the "bard/bard" since it was advancing divine bard/sublime chord casting. I can try to recreate/dig it up if you care.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Out of curiosity, what’s the date on your 1E PHB?

I have copies of both the '78 printing with the efreeti cover and the '83 printing with the wizard cover.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber
I had a build for that I nicknamed the "bard/bard" since it was advancing divine bard/sublime chord casting. I can try to recreate/dig it up if you care.

I wouldn’t mind taking a look if you have that handy.


Originally Posted by PairO’Dice Lost
I have copies of both the '78 printing with the efreeti cover and the '83 printing with the wizard cover.

Thanks. I think I hate you a little. :smalltongue:

[ZamielVanWeber]

I wouldn’t mind taking a look if you have that handy.

You get evasion from a ring and druidic from any of the races that get it as an automatic language, such as grippli. The ugly reqs out of the way IIRC, it was:
(any human subtyped race); divine bard 6/lyric thaumaturge 4/sublime chord 2/fohlucan lyrist 8, advancing sublime chord and divine bard.

You need Southern Magician to get into lyric thaumaturge and sublime chord and the mental stat demands are immense, needing 16 Int, 16 Wis, and 19+ Cha and you end up with this bizarre glut of mid level spells. For the fun of it I often take the flaw that exchanges your highest level slot for a bonus lower one and a feat (it also leaves open more race choices). You don't need lyric thaumaturge, but you need most of what it requires and Melodic Casting helps deal with your brutal skill reqs and it is thematic.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber
You get…druidic from any of the races that get it as an automatic language, such as grippli.

I didn’t know any races had Druidic as a bonus language.

Where are you seeing that for the grippli? Looking at the article in Dragon 324, the grippli have two automatic languages, Common and Grippli, and several bonus languages, none of which is Druidic. The Pathfinder grippli is the same in terms of language options, so no Druidic there either.

Is there another version of grippli out there with automatic Druidic? And is there any other race that receives it automatically?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I didn’t know any races had Druidic as a bonus language.

Where are you seeing that for the grippli? Looking at the article in Dragon 324, the grippli have two automatic languages, Common and Grippli, and several bonus languages, none of which is Druidic. The Pathfinder grippli is the same in terms of language options, so no Druidic there either.

Is there another version of grippli out there with automatic Druidic? And is there any other race that receives it automatically?

Lemme go hunt down my notes; I thought it was Grippli... Also having a wizard friend Mindrape a druid works, but will have deep alignment consequences. as will learning it from a Blighter. Lemme see if I can find who learns it.

Edit: Bas-Lag's vodyanoi from Dragon 352! They get druidic as a bonus language without being druids.

[Palanan]

Interesting, thanks. I may have glanced through that article years ago, but didn't recall the vodyanoi.

Also, since they're specific to one rather obscure campaign setting, that would probably be a hard sell for a lot of DMs.

[radthemad4]

I've often heard it said that the Fochlucan Lyrist prestige class (CAdv p.47) is an attempt to recreate the 1E Bard for 3E. It requires both Bard and Druid levels, and also evasion (so probably Rogue). If you've got any spare levels Green Whisperer (Dragon #311) is good as Palanan says, and maybe Arcane Hierophant (RotW p.108) too if you're going to epic.Bard 1/Druid 4/Green Whisperer 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 10? For evasion, you could buy a Ring of Evasion, or take Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra on Impulse Boots. The Chaos Music feat (Dragon #326, but hey, Green Whisperer is already Dragon) is like Practiced Spellcaster for Bardic Music so you could have full Bardic Music and almost full Druid casting.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Interesting, thanks. I may have glanced through that article years ago, but didn't recall the vodyanoi.

Also, since they're specific to one rather obscure campaign setting, that would probably be a hard sell for a lot of DMs.

Indeed. Thia is definitely not a universal build, but it works decently and if a funny way to advanced bard casting twice.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Thanks. I think I hate you a little. :smalltongue:

You're welcome. :smallcool: If you're trying to complete your collection, you can always try to find a used copy through eBay or a friend's collection or something, that's how I got one of them.

[Biggus]

Bard 1/Druid 4/Green Whisperer 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 10? For evasion, you could buy a Ring of Evasion, or take Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra on Impulse Boots.

As far as I know, there's no official answer as to whether magic items can qualify you for prestige classes, so whether this works depends on your DM.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

As far as I know, there's no official answer as to whether magic items can qualify you for prestige classes, so whether this works depends on your DM.

As per Complete Warrior:


It’s possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.

Emphasis mine. So qualifying via magic items is not just RAW but also RAI .

[ThanatosZero]

Using either the ring or the incarnum feats, one can use this build to gain both 9th level spells in sublime chord and druid.

Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

You get 15 BAB, 10/10 (CL 17) Sublime Chord spellcasting and 17/20 Druid Spellcasting.
If Unearthed Arcana's Fractional BAB rules are utilised, you get 17 BAB instead.

The downside is, you will need to invest during character creation most of your points in charisma and wisdom to get it to work without manuals, tomes or wishes. But for the physical stats atleast, we have polymorph/wildshape and natural spell.
Also IIRC you can start with a PC in a higher age category (middle aged, old or venerable), which gives further boni to your mental stats for the price of reducing your physical stats in your natural form.
I recommed here middle aged with human as race.

32 point buy

---------- MidA -- O -- V
Str: 11 -> 10 -> 8 -> 5
Dex: 11 -> 10 -> 8 -> 5
Con: 11 -> 10 -> 8 -> 5
Int: 11 -> 12 -> 13 -> 14
Wis: 16 -> 17 -> 18 -> 19
Cha: 16 -> 17 -> 18 -> 19