Unearthed Arcana: Is a Hulk Buster build any good?

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Take 3 leves of Artificer to get the UA Armorer subclass and pick the Guardian Power Armor. Then that 3 levels of fighter, snagging the Two Weapon Fighting Style, and go with the Rune Knight subclass. Presto you have a Hulk Buster. Is it any good? Is it too good? I think Armorer 3 Rune Knight 17 Warforged could be the best tank in the game, literally.

***I mean to say that it is a good Tank because it can have a decent AC, but more importantly impose disadvantage on enemy attacks against your friends every time you hit AND deal pretty good damage. See me post below***

[Yakk]

I doubt it would be the "best tank in the game literally", because 5e classes are not very convex. So almost always it is better to convert the last X levels of your "major" class to an X level dip for some value X. That is something I'd assert with most "level 17 + level 3" builds blind.

Let's look at details.

The Fighter breakpoints are level 5 (extra attack), level 6/8 (ASI), level 11 (extra attack), 17 (second action surge), 20 (extra attack x2), plus the subclass levels sometimes (3, 7, 10, 15, 18). So level 17 is at least at a breakpoint, but it is a strong one?

Is 6 levels in *every other class* worth some ASIs, the 15th level Rune knight feature, action surge, and indomidable upgrade? Usually not.

Level 3 Bear for resistance to all damage for 2 encounters/rest? Probably a better tank. Or level 6 rogue for reaction resistance on the few attacks that get through? Or grabbing more spell slots to get shield / absorb elements casts?

While we are at it, is the extra attack at level 11 worth it? We are talking a tank. Maybe we should stop earlier -- at 10, or 6, or 7, depending on features, and get more tank more often.

Is it "any good"? Fighter 17 is "good" all by itself. Is it worth losing 4th attack and an ASI and Rune Knight 18 for artificer 3? Well, it sure seems fun to have power armor.

[Misterwhisper]

Supertank:

Barbarian 1/ Ancients Paladin 7/ Artificer armorer 12

Resistance to just about everything
Lots of HP
12 THP each round
Great heal spells
Plate + Shield + Defensive style = great AC
You can still smite while raging because it is not casting.
People have to target you or take major penalties.
Take Sentinel when you can.

[CheddarChampion]

HP + resistance =/= best tanking, there are other forms of tanking and other hings to consider.
The general consensus is that prevention is better than reduction/healing.
Conquest Paladin, for example, gets high AC, high saves, and the aura of conquest.
Life Cleric has high AC, good self healing, and the spirit guardians + spiritual weapon/sanctuary + dodge/heal combo.


Plate + Shield + Defensive style = great AC

Basic rage does not give you benefits while wearing heavy armor. You can go half plate, though, and if you have 14 Dex to spare...

[Deathtongue]

You absolutely need to have good saving throws as a tank after around level 8 or so, which I think is a big hole in your build. It's still fixable (you have room for Resilient: Wisdom) but I feel you should definitely look into ways into shoring up that area. I would never play a spellcaster or a tank that didn't have at least CON and WIS saving throw proficiency or at least something to add some spice to it, like Aura of Protection or Elegant Courtier.

The big downside with your build is that Rage gets in the way of the defensive options a Paladin and Artificer have. Paladin isn't a melee god because of smites, it's a melee god because of options like Protection from Evil and Good, Bless, Shield of Faith -- and since you're rolling Oath of Ancients, Misty Step. Not to mention the great spells you get from this specific build of Artificer (Heat Metal, Sanctuary, Shield).

I'd get rid of the Barbarian level entirely TBH. Between your spells you have more than enough ablative defense.

[Misterwhisper]

HP + resistance =/= best tanking, there are other forms of tanking and other hings to consider.
The general consensus is that prevention is better than reduction/healing.
Conquest Paladin, for example, gets high AC, high saves, and the aura of conquest.
Life Cleric has high AC, good self healing, and the spirit guardians + spiritual weapon/sanctuary + dodge/heal combo.



Basic rage does not give you benefits while wearing heavy armor. You can go half plate, though, and if you have 14 Dex to spare...

Yeah, but armorer has to be heavy so just drop barbarian and take 7 paladin 13 armorer or 8/12 if you really want another feat.

Might could just go all artificer and take resilient wisdom.

Would be much better on stats, and 20THP per turn is amazing.

Offense will just be ok, but with the drawing attacks from the first attacks many magical items and their own resilience from
Spending an attunement they should be fine.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

I'm sorry I think I may have misspoken, I didn't mean to say that the Hulk Buster would have the best AC. What I meant is that it has the best means to keep enemies attacking it rather than its squishy friends.

The Guardian Armorer gets two gauntlets that deal 1d8 thunder damage, but also cause disadvantage on attacks against anything that's not the Armorer. No saves, it just happens if you hit. You can attack twice (with your action and bonus action) since the other fist is in your other hand. So that's two enemies you could impose disadvantage on in one round, 3 after extra attack. Going Rune Knight gives you an extra 1d6 (eventually 1d8) damage on each hit after you've enlarged, and you can gain resistance to some weapon damage or grant yourself advantage depending on what Runes you take.

So let's say you see your wizard in the back about to get squashed, you can cast Expeditious Retreat (bonus points if you have the Mobil Feat) and thwack everyone between you and him dealing 1d8+1d6+6 (conservatively) with every hit. That will interpose you between the Wizard and the threat and impose disadvantage on those determined to go for the Wizard anyway.

[djreynolds]

It sounds really cool

[stoutstien]

All artificers make surprisingly solid tanks as far as survivability and mitigation go and the armorer (armor smith is better) ablity to apply disadvantage on attacks roll against anyone other than you is up there as far as making sure they want to attack you.

The question becomes how many levels of artificer you could spare and when to grab them. If there was even half a chance I'd see lv 20 I wouldn't leave the class at all. +8 to all saves thanks to the bonus infusions and maybe one more from wand sheath is bonkers. Toss on flash of genius and make paladins envious of your saves.

If the campaign was only going to 10-15 I could see dipping out but still I would wait for SSI.

Now if you want to build a grapple suit and make Alien references....

[AgenderArcee]

Sounds fun! Worth noting that the Artificer already learns Enlarge/Reduce on its own. Rune Knight definitely provides some great options, though, so that could just be a backup.

[stoutstien]

Sounds fun! Worth noting that the Artificer already learns Enlarge/Reduce on its own. Rune Knight definitely provides some great options, though, so that could just be a backup.

The general idea is that the rune knight can become large with giant might and then you can stack enlarge on top of that.
It will never see life outside of of UA. But for now, gogo giant mech suit!

[Quoz]

This gives me some great/horrible ideas to change my gnome artificer. With rune knight I can skip medium and go straight to large, and with armorer I can get an infusion to use int instead of str for checks and saves. Which means that I can make a totally viable gnome grappler, capable of grappling any size opponent (cast Enlarge after Giant Might to become huge sized, which can grapple gargantuan.)

So instead of iron man you get ant man, capable of appearing at any size from tiny to huge. Dishing out two fisted justice with punches so loud they get their own sound effects. Between your ridiculous AC, hill rune for damage resistance and guardian armor's defensive field for temp HP you can trade blows with impunity.

This could come online from level 6, but you will probably want to rush straight to 5 in single class for extra attack before multiclassing. I think the build will get more from artificer than fighter, so probably stop fighter at 3 (or 4 if you need the feat). Perhaps drop in one level of rogue for expertise in athletics to become a truly ridiculous grappler.

[Quietus]

Somehow, all this thread has done its make me think about how to go for maximum number of attacks, alongside lots of first level spell slots, and the Sanctuary spell. Punch a bunch of things once time each to give them disadvantage to hit your party, then huddles up with sanctuary on yourself.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

The general idea is that the rune knight can become large with giant might and then you can stack enlarge on top of that.
It will never see life outside of of UA. But for now, gogo giant mech suit!

Or they can just add the sentence "When you use this ability you are immune to spells that would alter your size, such as Enlarge/Reduce"

I really don't think being Huge for one minute is that powerful. It would still only give 1d4 bonus to damage. You'd also have to be outside or in a VERY large room or the spell won't take effect. Sure you could overcome some obstacles outside of combat, but you'd be burning resources and only have a minute to do it