Paladin Steed & Gear

[Necrosnoop110]

So I am currently running a gnome paladin 7/sorcerer 1. I hope this is the right spot for simple questions, couldn't find a sticky post, so I hope this is ok here.

(1) Gear: what happens to the gear on my steed, such as armor, bags, etc. when my mount is killed or dismissed?

(1a) If the gear goes with the steed as it disappears when I recast the spell does he have the gear still on him? What if I summon a different mount?

(1b) If the gear just drops on the ground. Really? So now I have to schlep all my mounts gear around all day or until I summon him again?

(2) Lance: I'd like to employ a lance while mounted. Where can I store this thing? Do I have to carry it around all day when not in use? Can I stow it on my mount?

Thanks,
Necro

[Dark.Revenant]

Strictly speaking, worn items are kept by the creature wearing them unless otherwise specified, so all your stuff indeed disappears. If you recast Find Steed, you get the same steed back, meaning all the items that it was carrying return with it. Unless, of course, you release your original steed (such as to get a new animal form to appear)... then your items are gone for good if it's still wearing them.

A common ruling is that you can choose the form of the steed each time it is summoned, and it's the same "spirit", in which case it's unclear how your items get rearranged when it shapeshifts offscreen.

[CheddarChampion]

Yeah much of it is in "ask your DM" territory.

[Zanthy1]

I've always ruled it is the same spirit, just taking different shapes. This means that when its dismissed, it still has whatever it held, and when you resummon it those items will remain, even if you change the shape (like horse to griffin).

[DwarfDM]

As for the saddle, if you try to get a saddle of the cavalier it should adjust to the wearer. Because magic items adjust to the user.

[Necrosnoop110]

I realize they are different spells despite sharing lineage. But the spell Find Greater Steed says, that the mount "leaves behind any objects it was wearing or carrying."

This is so dumb. Like crazy dumb. Like would it have broken the game if both spells would have said something to the effect of the steed carries with it any saddles, tack, harness, or barding. If the steed is permanently dismissed it leaves behind any objects it was wearing or carrying. If the designers were so worried about exploits give the spells a number of item and/or weight limit. Done.

I'm picturing...

My 13th level paladin, casts the 4th level spell Find Greater Steed, saves the princess, returns her to the king and out of the his awareness of social graces temporally dismisses his mount, and all the tack, harnesses, saddle, bags, barding, weapons, sand stowed gear, treasure, and the handkerchief that the princesses gave me, the greatest paladin of his age's faithfull steed's gear all comically falls to ground with multiple clanging sounds (yes even the handkerchief clangs). And then he has to carry all his steeds gear all around while he accepts the kings blessings and thanks and tour of the castle.

Meanwhile the party's 13th level wizards turns ethereal, creates and extradimensional mansion, reverses gravity, takes the princess handkerchief from me and places it in his summoned secret chest and then planes shifts to another dimension.

[Necrosnoop110]

Sage Advice (Jeremy Crawford (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/05/13/party-wanted-to-attach-a-chest-to-paladins-horse-then-dismiss-mount-to-hide-item-possible/))
Find Steed. The steed is meant to disappear the way it appeared: naked. The idea is that it would leave gear behind.

So lame.

In 3E the gear would remain.

"Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed."
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

Q: Why did they think a gear drop was the better move?

[Jerrykhor]

And Druids get to choose whether to absorb their gear when Wildshape, let them fall to the ground, or worn by the beast form. But we know only one of them gets chosen all the time.

Magic is supposed to be convenient, so i'd guess that people would design their spells to be convenient for them.

[diplomancer]

This is a problem that I believe requires DM adjudication.

If the steed can take ANYTHING and come back with it, the spell becomes too powerful. It's effectively a Leomund's Tiny Chest on top of everything else it does.

On the other hand, having basic things like saddles, saddlebags, reins, stirrups and barding just fall to the ground when the steed disappears is very inconvenient.

Problem is easily solved on the table if both sides are reasonable, but I can see why the designers decided to make RAW more restrictive, while encouraging DMs to be generous.

[Sigreid]

I realize they are different spells despite sharing lineage. But the spell Find Greater Steed says, that the mount "leaves behind any objects it was wearing or carrying."

This is so dumb. Like crazy dumb. Like would it have broken the game if both spells would have said something to the effect of the steed carries with it any saddles, tack, harness, or barding. If the steed is permanently dismissed it leaves behind any objects it was wearing or carrying. If the designers were so worried about exploits give the spells a number of item and/or weight limit. Done.

I'm picturing...

My 13th level paladin, casts the 4th level spell Find Greater Steed, saves the princess, returns her to the king and out of the his awareness of social graces temporally dismisses his mount, and all the tack, harnesses, saddle, bags, barding, weapons, sand stowed gear, treasure, and the handkerchief that the princesses gave me, the greatest paladin of his age's faithfull steed's gear all comically falls to ground with multiple clanging sounds (yes even the handkerchief clangs). And then he has to carry all his steeds gear all around while he accepts the kings blessings and thanks and tour of the castle.

Meanwhile the party's 13th level wizards turns ethereal, creates and extradimensional mansion, reverses gravity, takes the princess handkerchief from me and places it in his summoned secret chest and then planes shifts to another dimension.

It's an intelligent creature you have a bond with. I'd just ask it to hang out outside the city and meeting me in x amount of time.

[Necrosnoop110]

It's an intelligent creature you have a bond with. I'd just ask it to hang out outside the city and meeting me in x amount of time.

There is always options and this doesn't break anything for me I just find it to be a very poor design decision. I admit it is a minor issue but I'm just hung up on it for now. It will pass. :smallannoyed:

If they were so afraid of abuse why couldn't they say something to the effect of, the dismissed/killed steed may only take with him barding, saddle, tack, etc. anything additional does a gear drop. And even if the steed could take gear up to the limits of its encumbrance is it really that op?

[Necrosnoop110]

If the steed can take ANYTHING and come back with it, the spell becomes too powerful. It's effectively a Leomund's Tiny Chest on top of everything else it does.

Wizard 7th level = Secret Chest (12 cubic feet, no weight limit)

Paladin 5th level = Find Steed (limit of what the steed can carry, no opposable thumbs)
Warhorse = strongest standard steed with 18 STR: 18*5 = 90lbs, max 18*10 = 180lbs

That's really too powerful?

[Sigreid]

There is always options and this doesn't break anything for me I just find it to be a very poor design decision. I admit it is a minor issue but I'm just hung up on it for now. It will pass. :smallannoyed:

If they were so afraid of abuse why couldn't they say something to the effect of, the dismissed/killed steed may only take with him barding, saddle, tack, etc. anything additional does a gear drop. And even if the steed could take gear up to the limits of its encumbrance is it really that op?

Maybe I don't think about it too much because it used to be you had to do a holy quest for a real animal blessed by the gods.

[Necrosnoop110]

Maybe I don't think about it too much because it used to be you had to do a holy quest for a real animal blessed by the gods.


AD&D 1E = Paladin 4th level @ automatic class feature "it will magically appear" [No quest]
AD&D 2e = Paladin 4th level @ call for warhorse "character must find his war horse in some memorable way, most frequently by a specific quest" [Quest an option]
D&D 3e = Paladin 5th level @ automatic class feature [No quest]
D&D 4e = ???
D&D 5e = Paladin 5th level @ Spell [No quest]


I only see one edition, 2E, as having a quest as an option, all other editions seem to have it as an automatic/class feature/spell of some sort?

[Sigreid]

AD&D 1E = Paladin 4th level @ automatic class feature "it will magically appear" [No quest]
AD&D 2e = Paladin 4th level @ call for warhorse "character must find his war horse in some memorable way, most frequently by a specific quest" [Quest an option]
D&D 3e = Paladin 5th level @ automatic class feature [No quest]
D&D 4e = ???
D&D 5e = Paladin 5th level @ Spell [No quest]


I only see one edition, 2E, as having a quest as an option, all other editions seem to have it as an automatic/class feature/spell of some sort?

1E you received a vision of the steed and had to go after it. It could be as easy or as challenging as the DM wished. I know the process well. Did it a couple of times.

[Necrosnoop110]

1E you received a vision of the steed and had to go after it. It could be as easy or as challenging as the DM wished. I know the process well. Did it a couple of times.
You are correct. I stand corrected. F-ing Gygax. This is what is in the Players Handbook:


AD&D Players Handbook (Page 22)
At 4th level - or at any time thereafter - the paladin may
call for his warhorse; this creature is an intelligent heavy
warhorse, with 5 +5 hit dice (5d8 plus 5 hit points), AC 5, and
the speed of a medium warhorse (18"); it will magically
appear, but only one such animal is available every ten years,
so that if the first is lost the paladin must wait until the end of
the period for another.

That seems clear enough, that it just magical comes to you. Nope. Fool player! muahaha


AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide (Page 18)
The Paladin’s Warhorse:
When the paladin reaches 4th or higher level, he or she will eventually
call for a warhorse (as detailed in the PLAYERS HANDBOOK). It will
magically appear, but not in actual physical form. The paladin will
magically “see” his or her faithful destrier* in whatever locale it is currently
in, and it is thereafter up to the paladin to journey to the place and gain
the steed. As a rule of thumb, this journey will not be beyond 7 days ride,
and gaining the mount will not be an impossible task. The creature might
be wild and necessitate capturing, or it might be guarded by an evil fighter
of the same level as the paladin, and the latter will then have to overcome
the former in mortal combat in order to win the warhorse. In short, the
gaining of the destrier is a task of some small difficulty which will take a
number of days, possibly 2 or more weeks, and will certainly test the
mettle of the paladin. Once captured or won, the warhorse knows its role
and relationship to the paladin, and it will faithfully serve thereafter for 10
years. Thereafter, the paladin must seek another mount, as the former one
will be too old to be useful.


:yuk:

Also: destrier (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destrier)*

[Man_Over_Game]

That is some horse sh**.

Just to rub salt in the wound:

...it is thereafter up to the paladin to journey to the place and gain
the steed. As a rule of thumb, this journey will not be beyond 7 days ride...

That moment when you have to buy a horse to chase after your horse, since your "Summon Steed" spell was nerfed to "See Steed".

What does make me laugh is monitoring when 9 1/2 years happens, so you can have your current steed find its replacement before you trade it in for glue, just to make sure you don't have to buy another god-damn horse to get another horse.

[diplomancer]

Wizard 7th level = Secret Chest (12 cubic feet, no weight limit)

Paladin 5th level = Find Steed (limit of what the steed can carry, no opposable thumbs)
Warhorse = strongest standard steed with 18 STR: 18*5 = 90lbs, max 18*10 = 180lbs

That's really too powerful?

Your numbers are wrong. Its 18×60 (encumbrance is x15, x2 for maximum capacity, large creature is another x2), which is 1080, which is 2 bags of holding (which is 64 cubic feet each, so presumably a LOT more than a tiny chest)

Give a player the capacity to carry around 1080 pounds in a pocket dimension (even more with find greater steed, giant elk is huge) to be summonned as needed is something he will find ways to use and abuse.

And, more to the point, it's not what the spell is supposed to do. It's to give you a mount, NOt a secret chest.

[Man_Over_Game]

Don't forget, Find Steed doesn't have a duration.

All the complaints you're having with this magical horse are the same exact problems you'd have with a normal one.


Cavalier: "Tell me more about how you have to cast a level 2 spell to not carry your stuff"

Now I want to make a First-World-Problems meme on this.

[Samayu]

I conjure a horse out of thin air, it's gonna have a saddle.

[diplomancer]

Don't forget, Find Steed doesn't have a duration.

All the complaints you're having with this magical horse are the same exact problems you'd have with a normal one.


Cavalier: "Tell me more about how you have to cast a level 2 spell to not carry your stuff"

Now I want to make a First-World-Problems meme on this.

A normal horse can't be called to my side at my convenience, it is not a smuggler's dream. Also, a normal horse can barely move around if it's carrying 1080 pounds of gear, while the found steed "moves" with you.

[Sigreid]

You are correct. I stand corrected. F-ing Gygax. This is what is in the Players Handbook:



That seems clear enough, that it just magical comes to you. Nope. Fool player! muahaha



:yuk:

Also: destrier (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destrier)*

Interesting (to me) note. This is a pretty good description of how the Lone Ranger got Silver in the old radio drama The Lone Ranger.

[Necrosnoop110]

Interesting (to me) note. This is a pretty good description of how the Lone Ranger got Silver in the old radio drama The Lone Ranger.
Sorry, don't follow.

[Necrosnoop110]

Your numbers are wrong. Its 18×60 (encumbrance is x15, x2 for maximum capacity, large creature is another x2), which is 1080, which is 2 bags of holding (which is 64 cubic feet each, so presumably a LOT more than a tiny chest)

Give a player the capacity to carry around 1080 pounds in a pocket dimension (even more with find greater steed, giant elk is huge) to be summonned as needed is something he will find ways to use and abuse.

And, more to the point, it's not what the spell is supposed to do. It's to give you a mount, NOt a secret chest.
Fully concede that I had the numbers wrong.

However, can't the spell just read, the mount can carry a single set of barding, saddle, tack, along with it during this discorporation and re-materializing but no other gear? Or something to that effect. I'm not looking to hack a bag of holding, I just want my gallant, noble, paladin to not have his gear drop to the ground as if he was some kind of stooge. Lets be real here in most campaigns only 1/3 of the time is mounted combat practical or desired the other times it would be fitting if he could shunt his mount to a pocket dimension without having to drag along a wagon load of gear.

The Pact of the Chain warlock (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Warlock#toc_8) can pocket dimension a Sprite (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Sprite#h-Sprite) in-and-out which has gear on its person?

[diplomancer]

Fully concede that I had the numbers wrong.

However, can't the spell just read, the mount can carry a single set of barding, saddle, tack, along with it during this discorporation and re-materializing but no other gear? Or something to that effect. I'm not looking to hack a bag of holding, I just want my gallant, noble, paladin to not have his gear drop to the ground as if he was some kind of stooge. Lets be real here in most campaigns only 1/3 of the time is mounted combat practical or desired the other times it would be fitting if he could shunt his mount to a pocket dimension without having to drag along a wagon load of gear.

The Pact of the Chain warlock (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Warlock#toc_8) can pocket dimension a Sprite (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Sprite#h-Sprite) in-and-out which has gear on its person?

I agree with you. I think the addition to Find Greater Steed was a mistake, it should not be clarified one way or another, but left to the DM's adjudication (I actually think find greater steed was a mistake; find steed should either be simply upcastable or, if you don't want the bard stealing the Paladin's thunder, find steed should be a scalable class ability)

[Sigreid]

Sorry, don't follow.

I've listened to some old radio shows on the internet. One of the Lone Ranger episodes was all bout how he got Silver, capturing a glimpse of the magnificent steed that was untamable. If I remember right (been a while) The Lone Ranger saved the horse and it immediately became his loyal steed. Very paladiny for a very paladin like fictional cowboy. That's all.

[Citadel97501]

Wizard 7th level = Secret Chest (12 cubic feet, no weight limit)

Paladin 5th level = Find Steed (limit of what the steed can carry, no opposable thumbs)
Warhorse = strongest standard steed with 18 STR: 18*5 = 90lbs, max 18*10 = 180lbs

That's really too powerful?

Just a note, that weight capacity is incorrect :)
-page 156 of the PHB for 5th edition...

Warhorse: 540 lbs of carrying capacity
-Strength of 18 x 30 since its large.
-Using the Optional Encumberance rules (I don't suggest this for mounts as it makes them worthless...): 180 lbs with a Speed 50 instead of 60, and 360 lbs with a speed of 40 and disadvantage on saves, ability check, and attacks....