On Sorcerers and Wizards

[Daphne]

Most people will tell you there's no reason to play a Sorcerer over a Wizard. Metamagic in 5e is very restrictive and Sorcerers can only know a few handful of spells, while Wizards get more spells and rituals.

[AvvyR]

The tiny number of spells known is pretty crippling for Sorcerers, and 5e's more lenient spell preparation system for Wizards cuts deep into sorcerer's advantage. Sorcerer is good if you want to hyper focus on casting the same few spells slightly better, or developing one or two neat metamagic gimmicks that you try to use as often as possible.

In most games, versatility is going to serve you better in the long run, but it's not like sorcerer is broken, or can't be fun.

[Man_Over_Game]

So, here is something that is bugging me( I pinned this thread under "Player help" because every instinct of mine says this is a noob question and the mere fact I am asking it says I am not plaiyng wizards right, but I just got to ask it anyway ): Is there any meaningfull advantage to plaiyng a wizard over a sorcerer on 5.0? On the third edition, as you all know, wizards were much better then sorcerers at metamagy, but now that sorcerers are the-Only-Class with metamagy...

Metamagic is helpful, but it comes at the cost of having the most limited number of known spells.

In terms of tools, you have a modular screwdriver who's bits you can swap out, but he has a basic screwdriver and pliers. Who's gonna solve more problems?

Most would say that playing a Sorcerer is pretty friggin' hard. You have to choose spells that both are usable in-and-out of combat (Catapult over Chromatic Orb), or you'll find yourself useless in one of those two facets. As opposed to a Wizard, who's hard decision is whether he wants to spend a spell slot or not.

Don't get me wrong, Sorcerers have their benefits, but I find that they only surpass Wizards when they utilize their bloodline traits around their spells, and then they're generally only better at that one thing (for example, Divine Soul Sorcerer is a great Concentration caster).

[Lavaeolus]

As far as advantages in spellcasting go, Wizards will have a larger amount of spells known. The amount of spells a Sorcerer knows varies based on level, capping out at 15 at Sorcerer 17. A Wizard, meanwhile, can add two Wizard spells to their spellbook every time they gain a level. They start with six spells, so by level 20 a Wizard will know 44 spells. (Obviously you might not get all the way to 20, but said advantage will be there throughout the game; for comparison, a Sorcerer starts with two spells!) They can, DM and campaign dependent, also copy other Wizard spells into their spellbook freely, if they have the opportunity.

Note that a Wizard, however, can't choose between all their spells at once. After long-resting, they select a number of spells, equal to their Wizard level + their Intelligence modifier, that they can cast. The usual absolute max, then, is that at level 20 the Wizard can choose between 25 spells at any given moment, assuming they've put 20 in Intelligence. The important takeaway is that they'll still probably have a larger array of spells at any given moment than the Sorcerer.

In principle, this means that a Wizard should be more versatile and adaptable than a Sorcerer. As mentioned, the Wizard also gets ritual casting for free. I don't really hope to answer whether Wizard or Sorcerer is better here, but hopefully that shines a light on why someone might want to be a Wizard.

Of course, in terms of other obvious differences both classes get different subclasses and their spellcasting stat is different. Which skill-checks are better could depend on DM, but Charisma does have the obvious advantage in that it multiclasses a lot better: Paladin, Bard and Warlock are all Charisma-based, while the only other class Intelligence governs is Artificer.

[SociopathFriend]

So, here is something that is bugging me( I pinned this thread under "Player help" because every instinct of mine says this is a noob question and the mere fact I am asking it says I am not plaiyng wizards right, but I just got to ask it anyway ): Is there any meaningfull advantage to plaiyng a wizard over a sorcerer on 5.0? On the third edition, as you all know, wizards were much better then sorcerers at metamagy, but now that sorcerers are the-Only-Class with metamagy...

As with a lot of D&D questions- there's context involved.
Which is better? Fighter or Barbarian? Depends on the context for what you'll deal with in the campaign.
Same applies to Wizard and Sorcerer. There's advantages and disadvantages.

One major advantage for the Wizard is the wider spell list as I believe a Wizard outright has more possible spells to learn compared to the Sorcerer.
If I go to DnDBeyond and select Sorcerer spells- I get only 10 pages of results.
I get 17 for Wizard.
That's just raw math there. I frankly didn't think the disparity was that high but there you go. Numbers don't lie.

Which leads to the next point that has already been mentioned- tools for the job.
A Sorcerer if they don't know any spell related to flight for example isn't going to fly. End of story.
A Wizard if they don't have the spell prepared but still knows it can take some time and prepare it. He can fly.

That's a simpler example but a valid one. Just last session I had a Sorcerer player stuck in a trap pitfall and absolutely no way out. 11th level Sorcerer btw.
I have a 9th level Wizard (1 level of Cleric too) in the same campaign. But here's the difference- had I fallen down there and had no spell available to get me out (I do prepare Levitate mind you) I could consult my spellbook.
And if it happened to have a spell that would save me- Long Rest and then cast it. I would escape.
The Sorcerer meanwhile could've been stuck down there forever. Because no matter how powerful his Fireball is- he can't climb a wall with it.

You can swap out whatever scenario you want: stuck on another plane, stuck with a cursed item, needing the ability to magically scout or learn information, etc.
The thing about a Wizard is theoretically changing the scenario is only ever a temporary setback as opposed to a full-on roadblock for a Sorcerer.

[bendking]

Unless you want to be either the best buffer or the best social manipulator in the game, the Wizard will most likely be stronger for whatever you're trying to achieve.

[Chronos]

Wizards are about always having the right tool for the job. Sorcerers are about having a hammer, and everything looking like a nail.

And wizards are definitely better for damage (if that's what you want to go for), combos, and buffs.

[Man_Over_Game]

Wizards are about always having the right tool for the job. Sorcerers are about having a hammer, and everything looking like a nail.

And wizards are definitely better for damage (if that's what you want to go for), combos, and buffs.

I guess the more complicated question is, what are Sorcerers better at?

[Misterwhisper]

I guess the more complicated question is, what are Sorcerers better at?

Making Paladins better.

Social skills.

Personally the only reason I will ever play a sorcerer is if I want subtle spell.

[ZorroGames]

I strongly disagree.

Please provide examples/evidence.

[ZorroGames]

Sorcerer level 6.
Action: Radiant Consumption : 9 extra damage.
Bonus action: Quicken Empowered Fireball for 35 average damage. Elemental afinity for +5 damage.
49 damage.
It's instant kill against a wizard level 6 with 16 con.
Reaction: Empowered hellish rebuke lvl 4 for 5d10 +5 Elemental afinity for = 39 avg damage. Also, Instant kill.

Wizard 6.
action Fireball for 28 damage.
Wiz reaction 4d10 = 22 fire damage.


Sorcerer 88 vs 50 Wizard damage

Nice cherry pick, another please.

And there is more than damage in D&D so perhaps some versatility elements too?

[Deathtongue]

Evoker Wizards can absolutely keep up in the damage race with pure sorcerer, especially at higher levels. They have Arcane Recovery, they have Melf's Minute Meteors, they have Overchannel + Bigby's + Contingency, they have Crown of Stars, they have friggin' SIMULACRUM. Just the fact that Evoker Wizards can drop a Dawn or a Sickening Radiance right in the middle of the melee frontliners and then spend the rest of their actions doing anything else makes their damage output the envy of Sorcerers. Even if we're comparing Evoker Wizards to Sorlocks, an Evoker Wizard with a level of Hexblade can drop the bomb with Contingency: Melf's Minute Meteors + Hexblade's Curse + Fireball for 12d6+5 damage to a group, 12d6+20 to a single target. And then do it again next round to wipe the board.

[Deathtongue]

Tanking and damaging combo:
Casting Polymorph on yourself for the purpose of tanking is a terrible idea. Every time you take a hit, no matter how small the damage is, you will face a 25% chance of losing concentration. You're much better off casting it on someone else. It's great casted (especially with Twin Spell) on a flagging frontline and is itself worth the price of entry, but if you're looking to make yourself look personally awesome this is a poor use of it.


Versatility: Ritual caster feat and spells know solves the problem.This is not a trivial fix to the problem. First of all, this costs a precious ASI. You'd be much better off spending that ASI, if not on a +2 to CHA, on something like Resilient: Wisdom, Elemental Adept, or even Warcaster. When are you grabbing this feat?

Secondly, it requires an INT or a WIS of 13. Sorcerers want decent scores in CON, CHA, and DEX. Where are they making room for these stats?

Third of all, this is reliant on spellbook drops or scroll drops. Have you actually looked at the spellbooks of wizards in the monster manuals, like the Lich in the MM1 or the Diviner Volo's? Not a lot of rituals. I've played three wizards up to at least level 10 in Adventurer's League, and getting rituals from monster spellbook drops is very difficult. Guess how many monsters have Tiny Hut?

[Deathtongue]

Rare guys plays high levels. But you have sure about fighting high level sorcerer? I bealive that is not a good idea.Wizards can grab Simulacrum and Sorcerer's can't without a Wish spell. The damage race contest is over at level 13. And even when Sorcerers get Wish, the Wizard has True Polymorph, Shapechange, Astral Projection, and Prismatic Wall -- the latter of which does way more damage than Meteor Swarm if you cheese it.

Sorcerers do their best in the damage race at around levels 5-8, when they have enough sorcery points for Quicken Spell + Empower Spell spam to make it a reliable tactic. Until then, they're about equal. But Evoker Wizards then drop the hammer with Dawn, Contingency + Bigby's/MMM, then Simulacrum, then Overchannel and the Sorcerer never catches up. And even at levels 5-8, Sculpt Spells and Arcane Recovery is just too damn good to let them fall behind too much.

[Deathtongue]

Whatever, a Wizard can't quicken or twin it.The wizard doesn't have to quicken anything to keep up in the damage race. They can use their bonus action for Melf's Minute Meteors / Dawn repositioning / Animate Objects / Crown of Stars. Quicken is still a very good metamagic, don't get me wrong, but if you're relying on it for damage (instead of utility) it falls behind later on as non-Sorlock spellcasters get better options for their bonus actions than quickening cantrips.


Twin Polymorph is alone enough argument that the Sorcerer deals more damaga than a wizard. It's +9 12d10 +18 potential damage per turn for 1 hours.Which is why I said that Sorcerers are at their best from levels 5 - 9. But past that level Polymorph falls off of a cliff in usefulness. If your melee damage dealers are halfway competent, turning them into a Giant Ape at level 10 is a nerf their damage. Not to mention their survivability; the Giant Ape's saves really, really suck. It's still a good tactic even later on when the frontline is struggling and needs a wad of 150-300 hit points, but if what you're looking for is damage and tankiness past that point you're better off Twin Spelling Greater Invis.

[SociopathFriend]

You'd think at some point people would remember exactly what forum member is famous for making ideal examples of Sorcerers... particularly when a Sorcerer King comment was already removed from the thread.

[Deathtongue]

You can't kill the Divine Soul because It regains 1 hp each turn for 1 hour, back to life every turn.FYI, most PC spellcasters can absolutely kill the Divine Soul even with this regeneration. One blast of Scorching Ray upcast to level 3 or higher can do the trick (that's down to 0 plus three death saving throws). Or Animate Objects. This screwed me over when I was trying to keep up a party with Mass Healing Word.

[Deathtongue]

You'd think at some point people would remember exactly what forum member is famous for making ideal examples of Sorcerers... particularly when a Sorcerer King comment was already removed from the thread.My bad, won't happen again. In my defense, I've been away from this forum for awhile.

[Jerrykhor]

If sorcerer is so good, why does he need Aasimar racials?

[JNAProductions]

Sorcerer is a good class-it has nifty abilities that other casters don't have. It is, assuming you have someone to help you with spell selection, a good beginner class (though if you're picking your own spells, I'd consider it much harder to do as a beginner and much easier to mess up). And at high-op, there are some cool combos you can do. But, it won't have the versatility of a Wizard, and is matched by the Wizard in lots of ways.

[AvatarVecna]

Zero abs. Zero stars.

[SociopathFriend]

Sorcerer is a good class-it has nifty abilities that other casters don't have. It is, assuming you have someone to help you with spell selection, a good beginner class (though if you're picking your own spells, I'd consider it much harder to do as a beginner and much easier to mess up). And at high-op, there are some cool combos you can do. But, it won't have the versatility of a Wizard, and is matched by the Wizard in lots of ways.

Relevant example- the player I referred to before as a Sorcerer without flight? He's relatively newer and younger- been playing for over two years, still in high school, and knows some of the tricks but not how to use them.
I know he looks up builds online to be powerful but he doesn't always understand the basics which is why he's put himself in bad situations. One of which is his spell selection.

As a Sorcerer you have more limited methods to learn spells and you learn less of them to boot. He's taken almost exclusively fire spells because he's Draconic so of course he wants spells that work with his bonus- except it's very common for higher CR creatures to resist fire. When we encountered a simple Fire Elemental he almost had to full retreat because while on paper it sounds awesome for all of your spells to get damage increases- it's the exact opposite when you're without viable means to hurt a given enemy.

A Wizard that picks the wrong spells to learn per level can always fix it by paying gold and learning new spells. A Sorcerer can't.

He also doesn't have any spells related to dungeon-delving such as Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Knock, See Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Water Walk, Dimension Door, Wall of Stone, the list goes on.
Which is an issue when he's in a dungeon. If he finds the enemy then sure he can blast them but his methods for finding them are basically ordinary sight and nothing else.

[Jerrykhor]

Relevant example- the player I referred to before as a Sorcerer without flight? He's relatively newer and younger- been playing for over two years, still in high school, and knows some of the tricks but not how to use them.
I know he looks up builds online to be powerful but he doesn't always understand the basics which is why he's put himself in bad situations. One of which is his spell selection.

As a Sorcerer you have more limited methods to learn spells and you learn less of them to boot. He's taken almost exclusively fire spells because he's Draconic so of course he wants spells that work with his bonus- except it's very common for higher CR creatures to resist fire. When we encountered a simple Fire Elemental he almost had to full retreat because while on paper it sounds awesome for all of your spells to get damage increases- it's the exact opposite when you're without viable means to hurt a given enemy.

A Wizard that picks the wrong spells to learn per level can always fix it by paying gold and learning new spells. A Sorcerer can't.

He also doesn't have any spells related to dungeon-delving such as Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Knock, See Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Water Walk, Dimension Door, Wall of Stone, the list goes on.
Which is an issue when he's in a dungeon. If he finds the enemy then sure he can blast them but his methods for finding them are basically ordinary sight and nothing else.

{Scrubbed}

[LudicSavant]

Is there any meaningfull advantage to plaiyng a wizard over a sorcerer on 5.0?

Here's a few.

- A vastly superior spell list. Access to stuff like Find Familiar, Contingency, and Simulacrum is a big deal.

- Far more spells known and prepared. A Sorcerer maxes out at 15 spells that they're stuck with. A Wizard maxes out at 27 prepared plus all their rituals, plus being able to prepare new spells tomorrow.

- Wizards have a version of Ritual Casting superior to everyone but Book of Ancient Secrets Warlocks. Unlike most full spellcasters, Sorcerers have no ritual casting at all.

- Arcane Recovery gets you about as many spell slots as spending all of your metamagic resources on creating spell slots would. This means that if the Sorcerer is using any metamagic at all, the Wizard has more spell slots per day.

- Wizards get access to some very powerful subclass features, like Illusory Reality. Some of these are actually rather like metamagics in their own right. For example, an Enchanter can effectively Twin as many enchantment spells as they want, and an Evoker can Sculpt every enchantment spell they cast (which is straight up better than Careful Spell for evocations). A Diviner's portent can be thought of as a better version of Heightened Spell.

[Deathtongue]

As a Sorcerer you have more limited methods to learn spells and you learn less of them to boot. He's taken almost exclusively fire spells because he's Draconic so of course he wants spells that work with his bonus- except it's very common for higher CR creatures to resist fire. When we encountered a simple Fire Elemental he almost had to full retreat because while on paper it sounds awesome for all of your spells to get damage increases- it's the exact opposite when you're without viable means to hurt a given enemy.This is kind of what I was getting at when I said that Evoker is better than Draconic Sorcerer at dealing damage past level 10 or so. You can patch that hole with Elemental Adept, of course, but you still need ASIs and Resilient: Wisdom. If you're a Variant Human, we're talking level 12.

And the spells known issue is very much a big deal. Sorcerer spell acquisition really slows down after level 11 and you will really feel the pinch from then on out. I mean, over the next 9 levels you get FOUR new known spells. So once you get settled with your sub level-5 spells, you will only know one spell per level. Unless you want to devote TWO of your post-level 5 spells known to one spell slot. Or go without an upgrade. It really, really hurts and it's one of the reason why I'm still salty about the nerf to the Divine Soul sorcerer years later.

Finally, the Sorcerer list is missing a couple of spells that really makes the Evoker OMG good as a blaster, especially post-Xanathar's. Not having Find Familiar + Dragon's Breath, Summon Greater Demon/Infernal Calling, Conjure Elemental, Dawn, Contingency, and especially Simulacrum just straight-up sucks for their long-term damage output.

[Son of A Lich!]

It has always baffled me that Bards get to discover spells from any spell list...

But Wild Magic Sorcerers, whose very blood is infused with Magic itself, can never cast off of their spell list.

Just... Why? How is that balanced for Bards and not Sorcerers?

---

What ultimately makes and breaks Wizards over other classes is extended options for casting.

Spells are allotted the ability to reach above the power curve at the expense of limited uses. Sure, a Sorcerer can cast fireball and out damage the Fighter, but it's only one time at 5th level and has strict rules to how it is used. The variety of options available to a wizard are immense and that is, in part, what makes them initially difficult to play.

The problem arises with experience in the class. Any MTG player can tell you that if you top deck a card and wish you didn't draw it, cut it from your deck and put in what you wish you would have drawn instead. If I, as a Wizard, look at my spells prepared and go "Geez, this Witchbolt spell is practically useless" then tomorrow, I'm not going to prepare it. I'm going to prepare whatever spell I wish I had access to instead.

This is compounded by the fact that Magic typically is the only thing that beats Magic. In Critical Role, for example, you can note the number of times that Grog (Goliath Barbarian) is taken down by sheer damage, and compare it to the number of times that he is removed from the battlefield (ala Maze or Planeshift or Feeblemind or what have you), and his healthy stack of Hit Points and blistering damage reduction is made moot by liberal use of magic or magic effects.

Couple this with the fact that cantrips are often better damage then multiple attacks, with rarely resisted damage types (with the ability to decide which cantrip you use on any given enemy) and having inherent "Magic" typing for overcoming anything with Resists - NonMagic damage and you have a player that always has an option at their disposal.

Wizards always get to choose the best spells for the occasion (the ones with the most utility) all keyed to a single stat that they are very likely to have higher or matching their opponents saves and the game quickly becomes "Deliver the Wizard".

*Sigh* I hate wizards so much some times...

/rant.

[Chronic]

Subtle is so powerful and versatile a metamagic that in my opinion a wizard will always be behind. Also I love how peoples always speak of the versatility of wizard, but in my experience 80% of the time the players I play with are like "ohhh I don't have *insert random useful spell name*, I can do it tomorrow." while tomorrow is most of the time way too late. To be honest I guess the same can be said about sorcerers who learn ****ty/redundant/useless spells. On the plus side if the sorcerer choose versatile spells, the added metamagic makes him versatile, and usually more powerful. Empower will makes him a consistantly better striker, quicken will give him combo options the wizard lack, and subtle... Well subtle is the most broken feature available to any class in 5e. Makes conterspell useless, provide perfect anonymity for spellcasting (you have to use an arcane focus if the spell has material comp), godlike in social situation, very good in combat situation (ambush, looking non threatening etc...). I like wizards, they are nice and have their use, but I've made the switch and discovered the subtle metamagic, and now have 0 intention to ever play a wizard over a sorcerer again.

However, sorcerers are hard to play, choosing the proper spells require thinking and research, you have to consider each spell through the prism of each metamagic, you must consider the scaling and the versatility of spells, etc. At the end it's very hard, but very rewarding for players who invest time and reflexion in the building of their character.
Or you can play with the UA variant cless features and break all semblance of balance in the game.

[Chronic]

Oh I wanted to speak of simulacrum, I really like this spell but using it for offense on a regular basis... It takes time to prepare, gold, and never gets it's spell slot back, all of that makes it situational, so taking simulacrum to prove that the wizard is the better striker is... A novelty I guess. Empower if taken at level one and used regularly will probably generate more damage between 1-15 level than you'll get from simulacrum during 15-20 level (it's probably an exagération, but the idea is here).

[Chronos]

Sure, part of the wizard's versatility comes from "I can do that tomorrow". But even if you just look at the versatility they have today, they're still ahead. A wizard has more spells prepared at any given time than a sorcerer knows, total. And they can use a lot of their spells even without preparing them, thanks to their superior ritual casting. And they can choose more versatile spells to begin with, because their spell list includes almost the entire sorcerer spell list, plus a lot more.

Nobody's saying that sorcerers are useless. Metamagic (such as Subtle Spell) is useful, no doubt about it. And it gives the sorcerer some measure of versatility that the wizard lacks. But overall, versatility isn't what makes sorcerers useful, since the wizard has more of it.

[Zhorn]

in 'general' terms; sorcerer for when you want a cannon, wizard when you want a toolbox.
You can make a support/utility sorcerer, and you can make a high damage wizard, but the other class will always serve well in the opposite role without needing as much build commitment.

[Chronic]

Oh I agree with you, wizard are more versatile than sorcerer, but I do think wizard versatility is a bit overrated and the sorcerer's one a bit underrated.

[ImproperJustice]

And can we all take a moment and recognize that it’s awesome that Sorcerors have built in proficiency with Com saves which makes them better at maintaining concentration than Wizards.

That seems to fly under the radar a lot.

Sure, Wizards can take resilient: Con or Warcaster, but then Sorcerors can grab ritual caster and suddenly both classes start looking similar but different. And that’s ok.

I have played both from levels 1-15.
They both feel very different. What I usually found is that I missed features from the one I wasn’t playing at the time: (Gee, I wish my wizard could subtle/empower/ quicken this right now, or burn all these silly level 2 slots into another 5th level blast right now, like right now before that Dragon blasts us again in two turns) vs. Hey, as a Wizard it’s sure nice to completely change my role today based on the party’s needs by swapping around my spells, and I like rocking the various lore checks.

I really feel firmly that both classes do work fine as is and neither is superior.
One is an apple and another is an orange and they both are tasty arcane flavored fruit.

[Deathtongue]

Sure, Wizards can take resilient: Con or Warcaster, but then Sorcerors can grab ritual caster and suddenly both classes start looking similar but different.
It's been my experience that past level 8 or so, you need both CON and WIS saving throw proficiency. It's not negotiable. WIS is a very common save to make and the consequences for failing them tend be really bad. You absolutely need to find a way to fit Resilient: WIS in your build unless your DM is being nice. Even if it means delaying maxing out Charisma.

This isn't too big of a deal, since every full-caster except for Bard (so, Cleric, Druid, Warlock, Sorcerer, and Wizard) gets one or the other. But it isn't a feat advantage Sorcerers have over Wizard. It is one they have over Bards, though.

Also, Ritual Caster kind of chews in practice unless your DM is being nice with drops or has a Magic Item Mart where you can copy spellbooks or scrolls. In actual play, spellbooks of published monsters have very few rituals in them, mostly because published monsters tend to only have combat spells. Seriously, check out the rituals of Volo's. Diviner is the best you're going to get until very high level. And I don't know about you, but I'm not exactly excited to fight a CR8 monster with level 8 spells.

[Anymage]

The thing that bogs sorcerers down is that they can be built around one cool trick (often involving Twinning a key concentration spell/high level buff, or Subtle shenanigans), but fifteen spells and four metamagics known leaves little flexibility outside of that. They may be best served sacrificing their lower level spells known on level up and cannibalizing those slots for metamagic or higher level slots, but there are a lot of very nice low level spells you don't want to find yourself without.

Which is the crux of the matter. Having one cool trick you perform over and over can get boring quickly, and being able to nova hard means you run out of resources and wind up plinking with cantrips if the day lasts more than fifteen minutes. Both of which sound like they'll wear thin as you play the character over the long haul.

[Deathtongue]

Which is the crux of the matter. Having one cool trick you perform over and over can get boring quickly, and being able to nova hard means you run out of resources and wind up plinking with cantrips if the day lasts more than fifteen minutes. Both of which sound like they'll wear thin as you play the character over the long haul.

At around level 11 -- so for about where 90% of games end -- the wizard has 16 spells prepared, the sorcerer has 12, 13 if they're a Divine Soul Sorcerer. I've played lots of full wizards and while the extra spells prepared is a definite advantage it's not all THAT painful.

The real problem is that the best Sorcerers tend to be multiclassed in a way that stretches out their spell slots. Sorlock and Sorceradin are two of the best builds in the game, and that's because they can settle on a go-to trick (Eldritch Blast or melee damage) and use the rest of their spells for versatility. I've played a Sorceradin in AL to level 14 and I've never felt the pinch of spells known because I've never needed to invest in a wide array of damaging spells; a lot of times I kind of feel like I'm powergaming because I have so many tricks compared to other melee buttkickers that it feels unfair.

I haven't played a Sorlock, but I imagine it's much the same way. If you have Eldritch Blast and Fireball, what additional CC spells do you actually need?

Compare this to a straight Sorcerer, who is best served by going full control with an occasional side of damage (like Animate Objects) because trying to keep up with the damage race is too hard on both their spell slots and spells known.

[ImproperJustice]

It's been my experience that past level 8 or so, you need both CON and WIS saving throw proficiency. It's not negotiable. WIS is a very common save to make and the consequences for failing them tend be really bad. You absolutely need to find a way to fit Resilient: WIS in your build unless your DM is being nice. Even if it means delaying maxing out Charisma.

This isn't too big of a deal, since every full-caster except for Bard (so, Cleric, Druid, Warlock, Sorcerer, and Wizard) gets one or the other. But it isn't a feat advantage Sorcerers have over Wizard. It is one they have over Bards, though.

Also, Ritual Caster kind of chews in practice unless your DM is being nice with drops or has a Magic Item Mart where you can copy spellbooks or scrolls. In actual play, spellbooks of published monsters have very few rituals in them, mostly because published monsters tend to only have combat spells. Seriously, check out the rituals of Volo's. Diviner is the best you're going to get until very high level. And I don't know about you, but I'm not exactly excited to fight a CR8 monster with level 8 spells.

We may have differing set of experiences. In a lot of games at the level you describe there is either a Paladin or Cleric boosting people’s saves or granting flat out immunity to various wisdom based effects, or everyone is munching on a Heroes Feast.

It is actually a bigger threat when we face Con saves and Charisma saves, because there are very few class based defenses that apply to some of those.
A Rogue can evade a Fireball but not a Cone of Cold (although than can Uncanny Dodge).
And Banishment and Plane Shift are not affected by fear/ charm immunity.
And we do have downtime, and Mages Guilds and such where players can easily purchase access to ritual spells.

But I fully acknowledge the strength of your argument is that a DM drives the challenges a party faces and the resources they can access. And so two classes can operate very differently in two different campaigns.

[LudicSavant]

Sure, Wizards can take resilient: Con or Warcaster, but then Sorcerors can grab ritual caster and suddenly both classes start looking similar but different. And that’s ok.

All you did with the feats here is shift the Sorcerer's disadvantage from "doesn't have access to Ritual casting" to "has one less save proficiency, and an important one at that."

[AvatarVecna]

1) Wizards effectively have every ritual in their spellbook as a bonus cantrip with a very long casting time. These are almost exclusively utility spells in nature, but being not inherently useful for the combat pillar doesn't make them useless. Sorcerers, meanwhile, can't do ritual casting at all unless they spend a feat for it.

2) Wizards can switch out their spells prepared for other spells prepared from their spellbook; their spellbook contains at least (4+twice class level) spells, and at most contains "all non-cantrip wizard spells" (so maximum is 200 + cantrips). Wizards can switch out their entire spells prepared list with a new list every single day; sorcerers can switch out a single spell known per level. Except it's even worse than that because...

3) There are 223 spells on either the sorcerer or wizard list. Of those, 216 are wizard spells, and 129 are sorcerer spells. To be clear, that is 7 spells on the sorcerer list that are not on the wizard list, and 94 spells on the wizard list that are not on the sorcerer list. The only spell level where sorcerers have equal access is cantrips - and at that spell level, sorcerers have the advantage because sorcerers get one more cantrip than wizards do at every class level. This difference gets more and more pronounced as levels increase.



Spell
Level
Sorcerer?
Wizard?


Acid Splash
0
Y
Y


Blade Ward
0
Y
Y


Chill Touch
0
Y
Y


Dancing Lights
0
Y
Y


Fire Bolt
0
Y
Y


Friends
0
Y
Y


Light
0
Y
Y


Mage Hand
0
Y
Y


Mending
0
Y
Y


Message
0
Y
Y


Minor Illusion
0
Y
Y


Poison Spray
0
Y
Y


Prestidigitation
0
Y
Y


Ray Of Frost
0
Y
Y


Shocking Grasp
0
Y
Y


True Strike
0
Y
Y


0th
16
16
16








Alarm
1

Y


Burning Hands
1
Y
Y


Charm Person
1
Y
Y


Chromatic Orb
1
Y
Y


Color Spray
1
Y
Y


Comprehend Languages
1
Y
Y


Detect Magic
1
Y
Y


Disguise Self
1
Y
Y


Expeditious Retreat
1
Y
Y


False Life
1
Y
Y


Feather Fall
1
Y
Y


Find Familiar
1

Y


Fog Cloud
1
Y
Y


Grease
1

Y


Identify
1

Y


Illusory Script
1

Y


Jump
1
Y
Y


Longstrider
1

Y


Mage Armor
1
Y
Y


Magic Missile
1
Y
Y


Protection From Evil And Good
1

Y


Ray Of Sickness
1
Y
Y


Shield
1
Y
Y


Silent Image
1
Y
Y


Sleep
1
Y
Y


Tasha's Hideous Laughter
1

Y


Tenser's Floating Disk
1

Y


Thunderwave
1
Y
Y


Unseen Servant
1

Y


Witch Bolt
1
Y
Y


1st
30
20
30








Alter Self
2
Y
Y


Arcane Lock
2

Y


Blindness/Deafness
2
Y
Y


Blur
2
Y
Y


Cloud Of Daggers
2
Y
Y


Continual Flame
2

Y


Crown Of Madness
2
Y
Y


Darkness
2
Y
Y


Darkvision
2
Y
Y


Detect Thoughts
2
Y
Y


Enhance Ability
2
Y



Enlarge/Reduce
2
Y
Y


Flaming Sphere
2

Y


Gentle Repose
2

Y


Gust Of Wind
2
Y
Y


Hold Person
2
Y
Y


Invisibility
2
Y
Y


Knock
2
Y
Y


Levitate
2
Y
Y


Locate Object
2

Y


Magic Mouth
2

Y


Magic Weapon
2

Y


Melf's Acid Arrow
2

Y


Mirror Image
2
Y
Y


Misty Step
2
Y
Y


Nystul's Magic Aura
2

Y


Phantasmal Force
2
Y
Y


Ray Of Enfeeblement
2

Y


Rope Trick
2

Y


Scorching Ray
2
Y
Y


See Invisibility
2
Y
Y


Shatter
2
Y
Y


Spider Climb
2
Y
Y


Suggestion
2
Y
Y


Web
2
Y
Y


2nd
35
24
34








Animate Dead
3

Y


Bestow Curse
3

Y


Blink
3
Y
Y


Clairvoyance
3
Y
Y


Counterspell
3
Y
Y


Daylight
3
Y



Dispel Magic
3
Y
Y


Fear
3
Y
Y


Feign Death
3

Y


Fireball
3
Y
Y


Fly
3
Y
Y


Gaseous Form
3
Y
Y


Glyph Of Warding
3

Y


Haste
3
Y
Y


Hypnotic Pattern
3
Y
Y


Leomund's Tiny Hut
3

Y


Lightning Bolt
3
Y
Y


Magic Circle
3

Y


Major Image
3
Y
Y


Nondetection
3

Y


Phantom Steed
3

Y


Protection From Energy
3
Y
Y


Remove Curse
3

Y


Sending
3

Y


Sleet Storm
3
Y
Y


Slow
3
Y
Y


Stinking Cloud
3
Y
Y


Tongues
3
Y
Y


Vampiric Touch
3

Y


Water Breathing
3
Y
Y


Water Walk
3
Y



3rd
31
20
29








Arcane Eye
4

Y


Banishment
4
Y
Y


Blight
4
Y
Y


Confusion
4
Y
Y


Conjure Minor Elementals
4

Y


Control Water
4

Y


Dimension Door
4
Y
Y


Dominate Beast
4
Y



Evard's Black Tentacles
4

Y


Fabricate
4

Y


Fire Shield
4

Y


Greater Invisibility
4
Y
Y


Hallucinatory Terrain
4

Y


Ice Storm
4
Y
Y


Leomund's Secret Chest
4

Y


Locate Creature
4

Y


Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
4

Y


Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
4

Y


Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
4

Y


Phantasmal Killer
4

Y


Polymorph
4
Y
Y


Stone Shape
4

Y


Stoneskin
4
Y
Y


Wall Of Fire
4
Y
Y


4th
24
10
23








Animate Objects
5
Y
Y


Bigby's Hand
5

Y


Cloudkill
5
Y
Y


Cone Of Cold
5
Y
Y


Conjure Elemental
5

Y


Contact Other Plane
5

Y


Creation
5
Y
Y


Dominate Person
5
Y
Y


Dream
5

Y


Geas
5

Y


Hold Monster
5
Y
Y


Insect Plageu
5
Y



Legend Lore
5

Y


Mislead
5

Y


Modify Memory
5

Y


Passwall
5

Y


Planar Binding
5

Y


Rary's Telepathic Bond
5

Y


Scrying
5

Y


Seeming
5
Y
Y


Telekinesis
5
Y
Y


Teleportation Circle
5
Y
Y


Wall Of Force
5

Y


Wall Of Stone
5
Y
Y


5th
24
11
23








Arcane Gate
6
Y
Y


Chain Lightning
6
Y
Y


Circle Of Death
6
Y
Y


Contingency
6

Y


Create Undead
6

Y


Disintegrate
6
Y
Y


Drawmij's Instant Summons
6

Y


Eyebite
6
Y
Y


Flesh To Stone
6

Y


Globe Of Invulnerability
6
Y
Y


Guards And Wards
6

Y


Magic Jar
6

Y


Mass Suggestion
6
Y
Y


Move Earth
6
Y
Y


Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
6

Y


Otto's Irresistible Dance
6

Y


Programmed Illusion
6

Y


Sunbeam
6
Y
Y


True Seeing
6
Y
Y


Wall Of Ice
6

Y


6th
20
10
20








Delayed Blast Fireball
7
Y
Y


Etherealness
7
Y
Y


Finger Of Death
7
Y
Y


Fire Storm
7
Y



Forcecage
7

Y


Mirage Arcane
7

Y


Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
7

Y


Mordenkainen's Sword
7

Y


Plane Shift
7
Y
Y


Prismatic Spray
7
Y
Y


Project Image
7

Y


Reverse Gravity
7
Y
Y


Sequester
7

Y


Simulacrum
7

Y


Symbol
7

Y


Teleport
7
Y
Y


7th
16
8
15








Antimagic Field
8

Y


Antipathy/Sympathy
8

Y


Clone
8

Y


Control Weather
8

Y


Demiplane
8

Y


Dominate Monster
8
Y
Y


Earthquake
8
Y



Feeblemind
8

Y


Incendiary Cloud
8
Y
Y


Maze
8

Y


Mind Blank
8

Y


Power Word Stun
8
Y
Y


Sunburst
8
Y
Y


Telepathy
8

Y


Trap The Soul
8

Y


8th
15
5
14








Astral Projection
9

Y


Foresight
9

Y


Gate
9
Y
Y


Imprisonment
9

Y


Meteor Swarm
9
Y
Y


Power Word Kill
9
Y
Y


Prismatic Wall
9

Y


Shapechange
9

Y


Time Stop
9
Y
Y


True Polymorph
9

Y


Weird
9

Y


Wish
9
Y
Y


9th
12
5
12




4) Even a wizard with no ritual spells in his spellbook, who only ever prepares the exact same spells all the time, will have a wider variety of spells ready to cast than a sorcerer of the same level. A wizard with Int 12 and a sorcerer will have the same number of spells ready to cast up until lvl 12, at which point the low-Int wizard begins pulling ahead. If the wizard's Int starts higher, the wizard has more available at any given time than the sorcerer starting from 1st lvl, and the gap widens every time their Int mod improves (and widens further starting at lvl 12). If you level the wizard's Int fairly normally, you can generally expect that a wizard will have half again as many spells available at any given time (and again, this is assuming no ritual casting). Combine this with how basically the whole sorcerer list is available to wizards, and you could very well have a wizard who "plays down" and pretends to be an Int-based sorcerer.

5) Wizard, uniquely among all the classes, can turn money into versatility of power. Generally, learning every spell in the game you don't get for free from wizard levels (besides cantrips, which I think can't be learned?) is gonna cost you somewhere around 30,000 gp (a good bit less if a significant portion of those are from your specialty school). Now that's a lot of money - most wizards will only pick up a couple extra options at every spell level rather than "all of them", I'd wager - but it's not like money has a lot of competition in this edition. What else are you gonna buy, if you come into a fortune? Can't be magic items unless your DM's doing something weird. Probably not full plate, you're not proficient, and even if you were it's a pittance by comparison.



None of this is to say that sorcerer is useless compared to wizard in this edition, but it can't be argued that they're more versatile just because they have metamagic. Having metamagic or extra spells slots (important note: can't have both, at least not significant amounts of both in the same day) helps make up for the fact that the sorcerer list is 60% of the wizard list, that the sorcerer spells known is 67% of the wizard's spells prepared, that the sorcerer can't use ritual magic while the wizard can use any ritual in his spellbook without having to prepare them. And yes this gets better if you include non-core material - books where sorcerers and wizards get about the same number of new spells on their list, UAs where sorcerer subclasses get bonus spells, things like that - but the default way of playing is, sorcerers get to do slight twists on spells, or get slightly more spells per day, in exchange for (comparatively) sharply limited versatility per day, per week, and per level.

[LudicSavant]

3) There are 223 spells on either the sorcerer or wizard list. Of those, 216 are wizard spells, and 129 are sorcerer spells. To be clear, that is 7 spells on the sorcerer list that are not on the wizard list, and 94 spells on the wizard list that are not on the sorcerer list. The only spell level where sorcerers have equal access is cantrips - and at that spell level, sorcerers have the advantage because sorcerers get one more cantrip than wizards do at every class level. This difference gets more and more pronounced as levels increase.

Extra data:
When we add supplements to the equation, the figure is 302 Wizard spells, 189 Sorcerer spells. And for "spells that the other doesn't have" it's 121 Wizard spells, 8 Sorcerer spells.

It's also worth noting that the spell lists have a difference not only of quantity but also quality; the Sorcerer's uniques are things that don't really help your power curve like Daylight and Chaos Bolt, while the Wizard's are things like Simulacrum, Wall of Force, Contingency, Animate Dead, Freezing Sphere, and so on and so forth.

[Deathtongue]

We may have differing set of experiences. In a lot of games at the level you describe there is either a Paladin or Cleric boosting people’s saves or granting flat out immunity to various wisdom based effects, or everyone is munching on a Heroes Feast.Protection from Evil and Good, while amazing, is not foolproof. Crucially, it won't protect you against enemy humanoid spellcasters, which Volo's and MtF introduced a buttload of. Also only one person can be protected at a time (unless you're a Sorcerer) and it requires concentration. I love it on my AL 15 Sorceradin; Twinning that spell is awesome, especially with my +12 bonus to Wisdom saving throws, but I would not use it as my only line of defense against Wisdom saving throws.

While I agree that Hero's Feast is much more viable layer of protection and is IMO almost mandatory at higher levels: the problem is that if you're relying on it as your first line of defense you still need a decent Wisdom Saving throw. CR11 monsters have about a spell save DC of 16, higher if we're using MtF or Volo's. With a +2 bonus to wisdom saving throws and advantage, you have a ~55% of making the save. That's not good, considering how nasty those effects can be. But if it's bumped up to +6, you have an 80% chance of making it. Much better.


It is actually a bigger threat when we face Con saves and Charisma saves, because there are very few class based defenses that apply to some of those.Charisma saves are much rarer than other saving throws. They're not as rare as Intelligence-based ones, but aside from Banishment (which is easier to circumvent, because it's a save) you don't need to worry about it too much. In the MM SRD, the only monster that natively inflicts a Charisma saving throw is the Ghost. The rest of them are spells, with the only ones you really have to worry about are Banishment, Symbol, Plane Shift, and Forcecage.

[JackPhoenix]

1) Wizards effectively have every ritual in their spellbook as a bonus cantrip with a very long casting time. These are almost exclusively utility spells in nature, but being not inherently useful for the combat pillar doesn't make them useless. Sorcerers, meanwhile, can't do ritual casting at all unless they spend a feat for it.

2) Wizards can switch out their spells prepared for other spells prepared from their spellbook; their spellbook contains at least (4+twice class level) spells, and at most contains "all non-cantrip wizard spells" (so maximum is 200 + cantrips). Wizards can switch out their entire spells prepared list with a new list every single day; sorcerers can switch out a single spell known per level. Except it's even worse than that because...

5) Wizard, uniquely among all the classes, can turn money into versatility of power. Generally, learning every spell in the game you don't get for free from wizard levels (besides cantrips, which I think can't be learned?) is gonna cost you somewhere around 30,000 gp (a good bit less if a significant portion of those are from your specialty school). Now that's a lot of money - most wizards will only pick up a couple extra options at every spell level rather than "all of them", I'd wager - but it's not like money has a lot of competition in this edition. What else are you gonna buy, if you come into a fortune? Can't be magic items unless your DM's doing something weird. Probably not full plate, you're not proficient, and even if you were it's a pittance by comparison.

If you can't buy magic items, you can't buy the scrolls to copy into your spellbook either, as those are... you know.... magic items. And that 30k figure is only for copying spells, if you *can* buy scrolls, each one is between 10-150 000 gp per XGtE pricings. Minimal cost for a single level 9 scroll is 25k gp.

Wizards are more versatile, true, but you're vastly overestimating how much spells will they be able to learn outside those they pick on leveling up. Unless you play in a really weird game, you won't have access to anything close to the full wizard list. Even if you count on stealing enemy spellbooks (in the few cases they have one, and have it somewhere where you can get it), you'll see a lot of redundancy. And then there's the time required to copy the spells....

[Deathtongue]

Wizards are more versatile, true, but you're vastly overestimating how much spells will they be able to learn outside those they pick on leveling up. Unless you play in a really weird game, you won't have access to anything close to the full wizard list. Even if you count on stealing enemy spellbooks (in the few cases they have one, and have it somewhere where you can get it), you'll see a lot of redundancy. And then there's the time required to copy the spells....

While stealing spellbooks is awesome and one of the best features in the game, using it for rituals is dicey. I've played every hardcover but Saltmarsh and Dragonheist and ran several AL Modules. Filling out your ritual count through monster drops is very difficult, because most monsters don't take rituals on their spell list. The only real exception is the Diviner from Volo's, but other than that? You definitely want to talk to your DM about the feasibility of visiting a Mage's Guild.

[Drascin]

While stealing spellbooks is awesome and one of the best features in the game, using it for rituals is dicey. I've played every hardcover but Saltmarsh and Dragonheist and ran several AL Modules. Filling out your ritual count through monster drops is very difficult, because most monsters don't take rituals on their spell list. The only real exception is the Diviner from Volo's, but other than that? You definitely want to talk to your DM about the feasibility of visiting a Mage's Guild.

The advantage is that, unlike magic items, which can be rare as balls depending on campaign, you can be sure every wizard has a spellbook, so you can often negotiate with NPCs with either gold or favors to get the chance to copy stuff from their spellbook.

And in parties I've been in, people wll straight up put up money from their share towards the negotiating fund, too. It's in everyone's interest to keep your wizard well-oiled and in the loaded position.

[AvatarVecna]

Extra data:
When we add supplements to the equation, the figure is 302 Wizard spells, 189 Sorcerer spells. And for "spells that the other doesn't have" it's 121 Wizard spells, 8 Sorcerer spells.

It's also worth noting that the spell lists have a difference not only of quantity but also quality; the Sorcerer's uniques are things that don't really help your power curve like Daylight and Chaos Bolt, while the Wizard's are things like Simulacrum, Wall of Force, Contingency, Animate Dead, Freezing Sphere, and so on and so forth.

I figured it'd be way different depending on what sources were used. I stuck to PH just cuz that's what all games definitely use, while supplements and UAs are more YMMV, but that's still very useful information for the point being made. Just glancing over my findings, the only two sorcerer-only spells that I really wish Wizard had were Enhance Ability (which they got in a recent-ish UA) and Insect Plague. Fire Storm is decent area but poor damage for a 7th lvl blasting spell, Earthquake is cinematic but way worse to buildings than people, Daylight is kinda niche combat spell (albeit overpowered in very particular circumstances), and Dominate Beast...why is this a thing?


If you can't buy magic items, you can't buy the scrolls to copy into your spellbook either, as those are... you know.... magic items. And that 30k figure is only for copying spells, if you *can* buy scrolls, each one is between 10-150 000 gp per XGtE pricings. Minimal cost for a single level 9 scroll is 25k gp.

Wizards are more versatile, true, but you're vastly overestimating how much spells will they be able to learn outside those they pick on leveling up. Unless you play in a really weird game, you won't have access to anything close to the full wizard list. Even if you count on stealing enemy spellbooks (in the few cases they have one, and have it somewhere where you can get it), you'll see a lot of redundancy. And then there's the time required to copy the spells....

1) I didn't mention buying scrolls, that's something you made up to tear down "my" point. I was talking about the Player's Handbook rules for copying out of spellbooks.

2) Enemy spellbooks are hardly the only ones in existence. Court wizards, mage guilds, wizarding academies...access to spells you don't current know can be purchased or worked for in a number of ways, and when you have piles of money with nothing else that expensive you can really buy besides like...housing, why not buy spell access? Heck, it won't happen in every group, but I've had groups with two wizards a few times, and once a group with three wizards, and you can bet they were coordinating their spellbooks with each other.

3) Redundancy means that every spellbook you randomly find isn't going to be an immediate doubling of your spellbook spells, sure. I never said otherwise. But of the 216/302 that are out there, you get 6-44 for free from class levels (depending on just how high level you are); even if every spellbook you ever have access to is 90% spells you already have, even at low levels, just a few spellbooks can still be a dozen spells you didn't know before.

4) Yes, scribing every spell would also take time - for each individual spells, this would be two hours per level. Learning every spell in existence you don't have would take ~1300 hours of scribing over your adventuring career. But this is mostly a problem if you're running a campaign that goes at a breakneck speed with no real downtime; a week of downtime could be 28 spell levels worth of scribing, a month could be 100.

I'm aware of the limitations on the wizard's abilities, I'm not overestimating what they're worth. It's not "wizards are objectively 10 times as good as sorcerers at casting", and certainly while wizards are far better for utility than sorcerers, sorcerers are far superior for social intrigue.

But when one class has half-again as many spells prepared as the other class has spells known...

..when one class has thrice as many spellbook spells as the other has spells known without spending a single copper piece...

...when one has half-again as many class list spells as the other does...

...when one can change out all their spells prepared every day and the other can change out one spell known every level...

...when one class can spend their piles of murderhobo blood money on more spells known and the other objectively cannot do that in any capacity...

...it's disingenuous to discount all that, to claim that what sorcerer gets is making up for all of it.

[Deathtongue]

The thing is, there aren't any rules for spell drops. You're dependent on the DM to say there's an appropriate spellcaster nearby. Which is incredibly dicey; the hardcovers don't have a lot of convenient wizards with helpful spells for you to copy, for example. You'll run into a LOT of Mages, but they only have Detect Magic as a ritual. Same deal for Gynosphinxes, Liches, and Archsages. And of course the NPCs who can be assumed to have spellbooks, i.e. they cast with Intelligence, tend to not have useful rituals. Even if they're like CR15+. You can't rely on it. Poaching them from spellcaster monsters, while still reliant on DM cooperation, has a lot higher success rate but based off of the published monsters they don't have a lot of rituals.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to find spellbooks to copy rituals from, but I also don't think it'd be unreasonable for a DM to give you no chances at all depending on the campaign. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

It happened to me while playing Tomb of Annihilation. While it was reasonable to expect to find SOME spellcaster in Port Nyanzaru (the departure location) past that you had no chances. There are two named NPCs with spellbooks, neither of them have rituals. Yes, that includes Acerak. You can encounter Mages in random encounters, but aside from Detect Magic? No rituals.

[ImproperJustice]

Protection from Evil and Good, while amazing, is not foolproof. Crucially, it won't protect you against enemy humanoid spellcasters, which Volo's and MtF introduced a buttload of. Also only one person can be protected at a time (unless you're a Sorcerer) and it requires concentration. I love it on my AL 15 Sorceradin; Twinning that spell is awesome, especially with my +12 bonus to Wisdom saving throws, but I would not use it as my only line of defense against Wisdom saving throws.

While I agree that Hero's Feast is much more viable layer of protection and is IMO almost mandatory at higher levels: the problem is that if you're relying on it as your first line of defense you still need a decent Wisdom Saving throw. CR11 monsters have about a spell save DC of 16, higher if we're using MtF or Volo's. With a +2 bonus to wisdom saving throws and advantage, you have a ~55% of making the save. That's not good, considering how nasty those effects can be. But if it's bumped up to +6, you have an 80% chance of making it. Much better.

Charisma saves are much rarer than other saving throws. They're not as rare as Intelligence-based ones, but aside from Banishment (which is easier to circumvent, because it's a save) you don't need to worry about it too much. In the MM SRD, the only monster that natively inflicts a Charisma saving throw is the Ghost. The rest of them are spells, with the only ones you really have to worry about are Banishment, Symbol, Plane Shift, and Forcecage.

We might be going in Circles, but regarding wisdom save effects:
If your Paladins and Clerics are only protecting the party with Protection from Evil, than yeah. That fails hard.

But 1 devotion Pally stops fear and charm effects just by standing there for multiple allies and adds a +3-4 bonus to team saves, the same as having the Resilient Feat.

Heroes Feast just stops fear effects full stop.
And honestly, most of the wisdom effects of hold or otherwise are usually over in a round or two following a good save.


But as far as I know, there isn’t anything as easily avialable that grants immunity to the effects you listed above like Banishment, Forecage, etc that is equally if not more incapacitating.


But I digress: Con save has the dual function of saving you from awful poison / death effects AND helps with concentration checks (a vital part of any Caster’s livelihood).

Whereas wisdom save is nice, but not nearly as essential due to the higher number of safeguards available in higher level play.

That may not be a popular opinion, but I am willing to argue that Con saves have a superior value to casters than Wisdom save proficiency. And is therefore one small pro for the Sorceror.

[Deathtongue]

But 1 devotion Pally stops fear and charm effects just by standing there for multiple allies and adds a +3-4 bonus to team saves, the same as having the Resilient Feat.I'll give you Hero's Feast, since there are multiple ways to get that spell (and I think it's reasonable to assume 75% of parties have a cleric, druid, divine soul sorcerer, or bard in them), but I don't accept the tactic of having a Devotion Paladin. Until very high level, you have to stay close to the paladin, which is not feasible. And of course not every party has a paladin, let alone a devotion paladin. Unless you're playing said paladin, you need another layer of defense.


But as far as I know, there isn’t anything as easily avialable that grants immunity to the effects you listed above like Banishment, Forecage, etc that is equally if not more incapacitating.But they're also RARE, is the point. Going by the basic Monster Manual there are, without exaggeration, 10 times as many unique incapacitating effects that aren't fear-based but still require a Wisdom saving throw than a Charisma saving throw. It's quite possible, especially if you're just playing in the midrange of levels, to never have to make a Charisma saving throw as a PC. This is not the case for Wisdom. You need a good score.


That may not be a popular opinion, but I am willing to argue that Con saves have a superior value to casters than Wisdom save proficiency.It's like arguing that you need the ability to make a fire more in a survival situation than the ability to construct a shelter. While true in a reductionist sense, you need both in the short and long term.

[Chronos]

NPC rituals might be hard to come by, but that's only a real problem for characters with the Ritual Caster feat, not for wizards. If the only spells you're looting are combat spells, then just use your free level-up spells on rituals, and get your combat spells from loot. Even if you really want, say, Fireball, you don't need to gain it on level up, because you're almost guaranteed to get that from the next spellbook you find.

Heroes' Feast gives a lot of good buffs, but it's probably not a good choice to rely on it, because even with nothing else to spend money on, 1000 GP per day adds up really quickly.

But I'll agree that the sorcerer's Con save proficiency is probably better than the wizard's Wis. Not only is concentration a thing, but enemies aren't likely to be targeting a spellcaster with Wis saves, because they probably can't tell right away which kind of caster is which, and most spellcasters have good Wis (and poor Con, by default).

[Drascin]

The thing is, there aren't any rules for spell drops. You're dependent on the DM to say there's an appropriate spellcaster nearby. Which is incredibly dicey; the hardcovers don't have a lot of convenient wizards with helpful spells for you to copy, for example. You'll run into a LOT of Mages, but they only have Detect Magic as a ritual. Same deal for Gynosphinxes, Liches, and Archsages. And of course the NPCs who can be assumed to have spellbooks, i.e. they cast with Intelligence, tend to not have useful rituals. Even if they're like CR15+. You can't rely on it. Poaching them from spellcaster monsters, while still reliant on DM cooperation, has a lot higher success rate but based off of the published monsters they don't have a lot of rituals.
.[/SPOILER]

Thing is, as has been mentioned, even in the extremely uncommon case that you get absolutely zero spell drops, never meet a single wizard npc, and never run into a scroll (what the heck are you playing, a single-dungeon module?), a Wizard at any level still has more spells known and accessible at any point than the sorcerer and can even shuffle some of them around because he has more picks than he can memorize despite his memorization slots already being more spells than the sorcerer's spells known as it is. So every spell drop on top is not so much creating a gap as just widening it.

That said, in general I've always felt that the Wizard's general existence is kind of a design mistake that really strangles spellcasting in D&D, but people grumble at me when I say that.

[Man_Over_Game]

For reference on Wizard spell totals:


Level 1: 36
Level 2: 46
Level 3: 42
Level 4: 31
Level 5: 36
Level 6: 29
Level 7: 18
Level 8: 17
Level 9: 15



Total: 270

A Wizard knows, at least, 2 spells per level + 4 spells.

At level 1, he knows at least 6 spells.

At level 20, he knows at least 44 spells.

You can use these numbers to determine how you want to chop it up. Do you want to give a number of spells equal to 50 of the Wizard's base (22, or about 1 spell per level). Do you want your Wizard to have 50% of all Wizard spells (135-44, or about 4.5 spells per level)?

It's a shame that the Sorcerer doesn't have a means of copying spells, like watching someone cast a spell relevant to their Bloodline. I think that'd be an interesting feature to include.

[Deathtongue]

NPC rituals might be hard to come by, but that's only a real problem for characters with the Ritual Caster feat, not for wizards. If the only spells you're looting are combat spells, then just use your free level-up spells on rituals, and get your combat spells from loot. Even if you really want, say, Fireball, you don't need to gain it on level up, because you're almost guaranteed to get that from the next spellbook you find.That's what I did in Adventurer's League when Xanathar's first came out and I was playing in a smaller town. I still wanted spells like Fireball and Fly, but since practically every spellbook caster has those spells in their spells known, I just picked newer or more situational spells. I moved to a big city and don't need to do that anymore, but it is an option if you're playing single-group hardcover.


But I'll agree that the sorcerer's Con save proficiency is probably better than the wizard's Wis. Not only is concentration a thing, but enemies aren't likely to be targeting a spellcaster with Wis saves, because they probably can't tell right away which kind of caster is which, and most spellcasters have good Wis (and poor Con, by default).You want both CON and WIS saving throw proficiency past level 8 or at most 12. This isn't a big deal, since every half or higher spellcaster but the bard and non-Gloomstalker Ranger (but why be any other kind of ranger?) can get one or the other. CON saving throw proficiency is slightly more useful than WIS saving throw proficiency, but in the medium-run it doesn't matter. By the time you really start needing both proficiencies you can have it.

[LudicSavant]

Total: 270

I'm counting 273 from supplements (AI, XGtE, EE, SCAG, PHB), excluding cantrips (302 with cantrips).

Where is this 270 number coming from?

[Theaitetos]

When it comes to WIS saves, I became a small fanboy of the Kalashtar race; they get +2WIS & +1CHA which is enough to be able to max out CHA, but more importantly, they have advantage on all WIS saves. When playing a Kalashtar sorcerer, the telepathy is shattering the language-barrier of the sorcerer's natural party face ability.

The new Mind Sliver cantrip (psionic) of bards, sorcs, and wizards also makes good early CON saves more necessary, as it immediately requires a concentration save with penalty (unless you pass your INT save).

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm counting 273 from supplements (AI, XGtE, EE, SCAG, PHB), excluding cantrips (302 with cantrips).

Where is this 270 number coming from?

Probably just a miscount. My bad.

[Deathtongue]

The new Mind Sliver cantrip (psionic) of bards, sorcs, and wizards also makes good early CON saves more necessary, as it immediately requires a concentration save with penalty (unless you pass your INT save).I gotta say, I don't really care much for the trend of making INT saving throws more common sense Xanathar's. INT saving throws used to be very rare, but they were uniformly catastrophic to fail. Now they're getting more common AND the penalty for failing them is still as hardcore as it was at the beginning of the game. Which really blows as INT is a dump stat for the vast majority of characters and the characters who don't treat it as a dump stat have proficiency in it as well.

That said, it's a very welcome power-up for control Sorcerers, so I guess I should stop complaining.

[AvatarVecna]

It's a shame that the Sorcerer doesn't have a means of copying spells, like watching someone cast a spell relevant to their Bloodline. I think that'd be an interesting feature to include.

Probably not a popular opinion, but I honestly think sorcerer should be able to draw spells from any list. Have subclasses be for generic power sources like some of them are now, and then you can just say that your particular blood manifests in a talent for such and such styles of magic. Wanna be a dragon sorcerer with a healing specialty? I'm sure there's some obscure positive-energy-dragon you could have in your family tree. Wanna say your father was a minor demigod of farmlands or something? Pick up a bunch of plant and animal spells. Wanna just be part of a big family of mages, who has no talent for learning magic the traditional way, but has always had an innate sense for how it flows around us? Pick up tons of classic wizard spells and call it a day.

The limited spells known would allow people to keep on a tight theme if they wanted, but would also make it really popular for putting together weird spell-focused builds.

[Mercurias]

The extreme short-hand on this is that I believe both classes are highly versatile, but they're versatile in different ways. Sorcerers aren't anywhere near as smart as Wizards, but they have much better people skills and have an easier time expanding into skills like lockpicking or stealth. Wizards make people unsettled or possibly bored, but when it comes to arcane knowledge and utility they're unmatched.

[JackPhoenix]

The extreme short-hand on this is that I believe both classes are highly versatile, but they're versatile in different ways. Sorcerers aren't anywhere near as smart as Wizards, but they have much better people skills and have an easier time expanding into skills like lockpicking or stealth. Wizards make people unsettled or possibly bored, but when it comes to arcane knowledge and utility they're unmatched.

Except wizards and sorcerers have the exact same access to Stealth or thieves' tools proficiency (i.e. multiclass or background), and rogues, bards or (knowledge) clerics are potentially better at Arcane. You're right about sorcerers being generally better at social skills, due to both having them on their class list, and better Cha.

[Waazraath]

Except wizards and sorcerers have the exact same access to Stealth or thieves' tools proficiency (i.e. multiclass or background), and rogues, bards or (knowledge) clerics are potentially better at Arcane. You're right about sorcerers being generally better at social skills, due to both having them on their class list, and better Cha.

If "stealth" also includes 'casting a spell without making a lot of noise, or even without being able to be detected', I would say sorcereres with the right metamagic have the upper hand here. On the other hand, there's something to say for stealth by proxy (sending your rat familiar out to scout instead of going yourself).

[djreynolds]

Twinning haste on the party fighter and barbarian and just sitting back and throwing firebolt or counterspell is quite nice.

IMO it's party dependent. If you have a cleric well they can cover down on some adequate choices for ritual casting. A well made rogue can do what many spells can.

In early play firebolt and a quickened firebolt might end the fight really quickly.

They're really... two... different classes

[Galithar]

Except wizards and sorcerers have the exact same access to Stealth or thieves' tools proficiency (i.e. multiclass or background), and rogues, bards or (knowledge) clerics are potentially better at Arcane. You're right about sorcerers being generally better at social skills, due to both having them on their class list, and better Cha.

Seeing as how those classes will usually have a below average intelligence, expertise would in most cases leave them a point or so behind or at best equal. (Edit: This paragraph is on the assumption of more normal stats, aka a 12 or less intelligence for the non-wizard, not what I actually used in comparison below)

Assume 14 INT for non wizards which is generous as hell, but to make them look as good as possible that's what I'll go with.

Level 1-3
Expertise +6
Wizard +5 (16 int)

Level 4
Expertise +6
Wizard +6 (18 int)

Level 5-7
Expertise +8
Wizard +7

Level 8
Expertise +8
Wizard +8 (maxed Int)

Level 9-12
Expertise +10
Wizard +9

Level 13-16
Expertise +12
Wizard +10

Level 17+
Expertise +14
Wizard +11

So at extremely high levels (and stats strongly, and often unrealistically, supporting the classes with expertise) the Wizard falls a little behind on an Arcana skill check, but still out performs on any other Int check. Use more likely stats for those classes with typical point buy strategies and Expertise is behind for the majority of the time.

So yes "potentially" better at Wizards for Arcana checks. But if they are better then a Wizard at Arcana checks, then they are likely lacking somewhere else. Most probably in Con or Dex since those are the stats that they would want high In addition to their main stat. Rogues have a slightly higher chance of not feeling lacking with only really needing Dex and a little Con, but they often want Cha or Wis. (Perception, or Social skills) adding an attempt to be better at Arcana then a Wizard makes every one of these classes a bit MAD.

[Garfunion]

Sorcerers aren't anywhere near as smart as Wizards, but they have much better people skills and have an easier time expanding into skills like lockpicking or stealth.
But you are forgetting about the Bard which has the same or better people skills and can pick up more skills than the sorcerer.

Let’s face it, the sorcerer got the short end of the stick. They have a primary class feature that was probably originally supposed to be feats or a subclass for the wizard (look at the battle master as an example). Which is why the sorcerer has become the multiclass class.

[Anymage]

Twinning haste on the party fighter and barbarian and just sitting back and throwing firebolt or counterspell is quite nice.

Twinning a buff to get around limits on high level spell slots and/or concentration is nice. Subtle Spell is nice. Nobody is arguing against either of those points.

If the sorcerer's niche is supposed to be metamagic, though, why does he only get two for basically half his career? Metamagics are already limited by needing to power them with sorcery points, tightly limiting the available picks feels unnecessary. It's another place where options feel tighter than they need to be.

[Misterwhisper]

But you are forgetting about the Bard which has the same or better people skills and can pick up more skills than the sorcerer.

Let’s face it, the sorcerer got the short end of the stick. They have a primary class feature that was probably originally supposed to be feats or a subclass for the wizard (look at the battle master as an example). Which is why the sorcerer has become the multiclass class.

Warlock is the multi class class, almost nobody takes it for more than 3 levels. The short rest spells mean almost nothing considering sorcerer can do it better, and wizard can do it a little. Even land druids get a little back.

Sorcerer just needs better subclasses, the base sorcery points are fine but adding another meta magic at level 7 and publishing the UA meta choices will greatly help.

Their subclasses need more help.

Draconic is damage but only one element and gets wings.
Wild is just for people who want to be chaotic and the DMs work with it.
Storm actually gets no help to thunder and lightning damage, and gets to fly later.
Divine gets to pick cleric spells and wait... gets to fly later.
Shadow is not that bad, but the hound needs to last longer if it is going to cost 3SP.

Sorcerer is for people who want to be a wizard but would rather not have to pick spells every day, not deal with book keeping as much, and want charisma skill over knowledge.
Wizard subclasses are for the most part pretty great. Sorcerer about half the time I forget which one I was.

[Garfunion]

Warlock is the multi class class, almost nobody takes it for more than 3 levels. The short rest spells mean almost nothing considering sorcerer can do it better, and wizard can do it a little. Even land druids get a little back.
You are right the warlock is also a multiclass class especially if you multiclass with the sorcerer to give the sorcerers their level 20-ish ability earlier.


Sorcerer just needs better subclasses, the base sorcery points are fine but adding another meta magic at level 7 and publishing the UA meta choices will greatly help.
I also definitely agree with this. Many of the subclasses should provide additional ways to spend sorcery points.


Sorcerer is for people who want to be a wizard but would rather not have to pick spells every day, not deal with book keeping as much, and want charisma skill over knowledge.
Wizard subclasses are for the most part pretty great. Sorcerer about half the time I forget which one I was. Again the Bard exists. But you’re right the sorcerer tends to have less bookkeeping but it is definitely not for beginners. If you want to create a unique spellcasting anime character, the sorcerer is probably your best option. If you want to create a more forgiving spellcaster the wizard is a better option. Because you don’t really need to carry around a spellbook or re-prepare spells each morning for the wizard, you simply maintain the spells list you currently have memorized/prepared.

[LudicSavant]

The consequences of having a Twinned Haste interrupted are severe; in addition to the investment of spell slot, sorcery points, action and concentration, two teammates lose their turns. It is for this reason that I regard it as risky when using it, and as an opportunity when playing against it.

[Theaitetos]

The consequences of having a Twinned Haste interrupted are severe; in addition to the investment of spell slot, sorcery points, action and concentration, two teammates lose their turns. It is for this reason that I regard it as risky when using it, and as an opportunity when playing against it.

By the time you get Haste, even an unusually weak sorcerer has at least a +5 on concentration saves (+3 proficiency, +2 from CON); more likely it is 2-3 points higher due to buffs (Bless, ...), magic items (Ring of Protection +1), or an ASI effect (CON 16, Warcaster). You'd need to hit a sorcerer with >21 damage to increase the DC to levels that aren't easily saved against - and when you can get that kind of damage past a sorcerer's defenses (Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, ...) at second tier levels, you could just as easily kill the sorcerer instead.

And since blaster sorcs (Draconic, Storm) tend to choose Empower & Quicken over Twinned, your Haste-twinning sorcerer is very likely a Divine Soul who can use Favored by the Gods to add ~5 (2d4) to such an important save.

So overall it's unlikely you can break his concentration.

[LudicSavant]

By the time you get Haste, even an unusually weak sorcerer has at least a +5 on concentration saves (+3 proficiency, +2 from CON); more likely it is 2-3 points higher due to buffs (Bless, ...), magic items (Ring of Protection +1), or an ASI effect (CON 16, Warcaster). You'd need to hit a sorcerer with >21 damage to increase the DC to levels that aren't easily saved against - and when you can get that kind of damage past a sorcerer's defenses (Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, ...) at second tier levels, you could just as easily kill the sorcerer instead.

And since blaster sorcs (Draconic, Storm) tend to choose Empower & Quicken over Twinned, your Haste-twinning sorcerer is very likely a Divine Soul who can use Favored by the Gods to add ~5 (2d4) to such an important save.

So overall it's unlikely you can break his concentration.

I agree that a buff sorcerer should have a good Con save.

However, failing a Con save is not the only way to interrupt a spell. You could fail a Wisdom save. You could get dispelled. You could get bursted to 0. And so on.

There's also the issue of iterative probability to consider. I would consider Twinned Haste to have a meaningful risk at a high-op table even if I only had a 5% chance of failing the save.

Having a high Con save helps, but doesn't straight up remove the risk that goes with that reward.


you could just as easily kill the sorcerer instead.

And I often do. But then I still have to deal with the rest of the party (who might very well be able to pop them back up).

If you are in a position to reduce the Sorc to zero hp, you not only drop the Sorcerer, but also disable two of their teammates.

One character going down is a lot easier to recover from than 1 character going down and 2 other characters being unable to act. The latter is much easier to snowball into a TPK situation.

[AHF]

It is bizarre to me that WOTC chose to do all of the following in 5.0:

* Give the Sorcerer's ability to use a spell slot for any spell on their prepared (or known list for casters who don't prepare) to all other casters, taking away perhaps the most significant advantage of Sorcerers and other spontaneous casters;

* Give the Sorcerer a materially smaller number of spells known than Wizards can prepare (assuming 16 INT at level 1, it will generally be a 4 spell advantage at low levels and eventually extend to a 10 spell advantage) when both are now spontaneous casters and the Wizard has a much deeper pool of spells known;

* Give the Sorcerer and Wizard the same number of spells slots and very little differentiation in their ability to create or recover new slots (i.e., a 10th level Sorcerer can create 1 5th level spell slot and 1 2nd level spell slot if they forego any use of metamagic by spending all sorcery points on creating slots while a 10th level Wizard can create a 5th level slot and still fully use their subclass features); AND

* Give the Sorcerer's a notably worse list of spells they can learn than Wizards (Wizards have all significant spells from the Sorcerer list while Sorcerers are missing several very significant spells from the Wizard list).

Seems like an obviously poor design choice to give the best distinguishing feature from spontaneous casters to all casters and then not give the spontaneous casters more material boosts to their spellcasting abilities. Giving Sorcerers significantly fewer spells known made sense as a tradeoff in prior editions when Sorcerers were distinct from Wizards in their ability to spontaneously cast any spell from their list and/or had more spell slots but seems entirely unnecessary when all casters can spontaneously cast any spells prepared. The combination of worse spell list to choose from, fewer spells known versus prepared, and a more restrictive mechanic for spells known just tilts the table too hard towards Wizards.

[JumboWheat01]

Simulacrum spends 1500 gold, long prep time, requires high levels, never regain spells slots, half-hp. It's high situational and obscenely overrated.
But, Does someone notices that the Sorcerer level 17 can just Twin Simulacrum????
A sorcerer Simulacrum + a Mother Matron Drow (CR 20 humanoid) simulacrum is avaiable for sorcerers?

Last I knew, Sorcerers didn't have access to Simulacrum, so no Twinning shenanigans with it.

[Deathtongue]

Obsession with Distant Spell and flying... is this the spammer who got banned earlier in the thread?

[JNAProductions]

Obsession with Distant Spell and flying... is this the spammer who got banned earlier in the thread?

In a word? Yes.

[Lille]

Obsession with Distant Spell and flying... is this the spammer who got banned earlier in the thread?

I mean, he's been banned a bit more often than just earlier in this thread, but yeah.

[LudicSavant]

Wait, did the *original poster of this thread* get banned/deleted too? I'm seeing Daphne's reply as the #1 post.

[JNAProductions]

Wait, did the *original poster of this thread* get banned/deleted too? I'm seeing Daphne's reply as the #1 post.

Yes, they did.

[JumboWheat01]

Ya know, I never think of Distant Spell when I'm making a Sorcerer. Distance just never seems to be much of a major advantage or necessity. Twin Spell, on the other hand, yes, that I almost always go for. Breaking the Concentration rules, even slightly, is definitely one of the Sorcerer's best perks. If only you could pair it with Extend Spell for more spell slot efficiency on your controls/debuffs/buffs. Alas, only Empower Spell can be paired with other Metamagics.

[Chronic]

Warlock is the multi class class, almost nobody takes it for more than 3 levels. The short rest spells mean almost nothing considering sorcerer can do it better, and wizard can do it a little. Even land druids get a little back.

Sorcerer just needs better subclasses, the base sorcery points are fine but adding another meta magic at level 7 and publishing the UA meta choices will greatly help.

Their subclasses need more help.

Draconic is damage but only one element and gets wings.
Wild is just for people who want to be chaotic and the DMs work with it.
Storm actually gets no help to thunder and lightning damage, and gets to fly later.
Divine gets to pick cleric spells and wait... gets to fly later.
Shadow is not that bad, but the hound needs to last longer if it is going to cost 3SP.

Sorcerer is for people who want to be a wizard but would rather not have to pick spells every day, not deal with book keeping as much, and want charisma skill over knowledge.
Wizard subclasses are for the most part pretty great. Sorcerer about half the time I forget which one I was.

I play sorcerer because I can get more out of them than I do of wizard. My campaign features a lot of social encounters and reward out the box thinking. I can do more of that with subtle spell than with any additional spells playing a wizard would give me. I'm of the opinion than the sorcerer is one if not the most powerful class of the game (with bards, those guys are dope too), not necessarily in terms of pure damage but in effectiveness. Playing a sorcerer to me is feeling very much in control in pretty much any situation. I need to blast? I'm great at it. I need to resolve a social situation? Well if I can't solve it my teammates pro ably won't either. Need to **** around? spread mayhem? Forward my evil schemes? I can do that and more. And more importantly, I can do that Today, not tomorrow.

I guess it's very dm dependant but I have another wizard constantly complaining about having exactly the spells he doesn't need at this moment, because my gm love to throw the same day very different situations at us, with little to no prep time.

[JNAProductions]

Ya know, I never think of Distant Spell when I'm making a Sorcerer. Distance just never seems to be much of a major advantage or necessity. Twin Spell, on the other hand, yes, that I almost always go for. Breaking the Concentration rules, even slightly, is definitely one of the Sorcerer's best perks. If only you could pair it with Extend Spell for more spell slot efficiency on your controls/debuffs/buffs. Alas, only Empower Spell can be paired with other Metamagics.

That’s because distant isn’t very good. It requires excessive distance to actually be useful, which doesn’t happen very often.

[SociopathFriend]

That’s because distant isn’t very good. It requires excessive distance to actually be useful, which doesn’t happen very often.

Who would of thought a game called Dungeons and Dragons takes place primarily in various dungeons?
I don't think I've been in a room of the Mad Mage Dungeon more than 200 feet long yet and we've been playing that campaign for over a year now.

[JumboWheat01]

Who would of thought a game called Dungeons and Dragons takes place primarily in various dungeons?

In that case, where are all my dragons!

I guess, now that I think about it, it might be more useful for safely casting Touch-range spells, so it might be of greater use to a Divine Soul than other Sorcerers. (Cure Wounds comes instantly to mind.)

[djreynolds]

Twinning a buff to get around limits on high level spell slots and/or concentration is nice. Subtle Spell is nice. Nobody is arguing against either of those points.

If the sorcerer's niche is supposed to be metamagic, though, why does he only get two for basically half his career? Metamagics are already limited by needing to power them with sorcery points, tightly limiting the available picks feels unnecessary. It's another place where options feel tighter than they need to be.

I let players switch out metamagic on a long rest.... why not? I could argue even on a short rest. Wizard's get arcane recovery.

Why not? I want to see careful or heightened in actual play.

I only see twinned and quickened.

It gives sorcerers something akin to wizards that they can at least plan their day... like wizard does when preparing spells.

But that said. Quickened cantrips are great. Twinned buffs are great.

Being able to cast blur as bonus action and still cast a cantrip can change a battle. Vs a wizard losing a whole turn casting blur.

Sacred weapon is awesome but it's an action. Vs vow of enmity which is bonus action. It's why players choose OoV over OoD.... It's not just hunters mark

Combat is so quick in 5E that losing out on a turn to cast a defensive buff or offensive buff may not be worth it.

Now that little goblin has shot your wizard twice... the sorcerer may have killed three with a twinned firebolt followed by a quickened firebolt.

[Amechra]

Honestly, I wonder how much things would change if you swapped things around so that Warlocks and Sorcerers both got Magical Secrets just like a Bard does.

Because one of the things that hurts the Sorcerer is that it gets 7 fewer spells known than the Bard over the course of the game, despite the Sorcerer (arguably) being more focused on spellcasting than Bards are.

---

Honestly, spellcasters are hurt by the fact that they have to use the same mechanics as Wizards. Using specific, defined spells makes sense for Wizards - when it comes to something like a Sorcerer (whose magic is entirely instinctive), it makes less sense that their powers are so defined.

[Chronic]

I see people constantly speaking of twinned and quicken, but as a long time sorcerer players they aren't priority to me. Subtle is always my first pick (however I've already talked a lot about it so I will just add the fact that it's cheap), then it's usually Empower, rerolling bad dice for 1 point (so After seeing the result) is a very safe and very cheap way to enhance your damages. Meanwhile using quicken to squeeze another cantrip for 2 points is expensive, can miss, not very powerful (it's still cantrip damage), and my personal opinion: boring. I'd rather use it to dash, total defense or disengage at low level. At high level I use it to combo a spell and it's use of a bonus action.

And for twinned, well it's nice, it's also expensive and very situational. Blasting with it is often meh (too much limitations) buffing is better but you are not inured to a loss of concentration, so better be careful.
That's why when I take those metamagic I take them later, because my pool of sorcery point will accommodate their usage better. I mean without sorcery point a sorcerer is just a bad wizard let's be honest.

Another note, something I rarely see is the unique possibility for the sorcerer to spam their high level spells by converting spells to sorcery points. It's expensive to do so but still, spells are often balanced at the level you get them around the idea that they can be cast once or twice, a sorcerer can usually do it 4/5/6 times a day. As I said, situational, but very handy in some situation.

[JackPhoenix]

Honestly, spellcasters are hurt by the fact that they have to use the same mechanics as Wizards. Using specific, defined spells makes sense for Wizards - when it comes to something like a Sorcerer (whose magic is entirely instinctive), it makes less sense that their powers are so defined.

So much this. Having metamagic be sorcerer-exclusive is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't go far enough, IMO. Sorcerers should have some sort of mechanic where they can build their own magic effect on fly, though I suspect that would've been too complex for what 5e was supposed to be. On the same note, clerics should've used magic system similar to warlocks: their spells come from the deity, so it would make sense to have them automatically scale as the cleric can handle channeling more of the power, but the gods don't like to be bothered too often, thus fewer spells that refresh on short rest rather than slew of spell slots of different levels.

[Theaitetos]

Last I knew, Sorcerers didn't have access to Simulacrum, so no Twinning shenanigans with it.

He said "a level 17 sorcerer", i.e. 9th-level spells. Sorcerers can use Twinned on Wish and thereby twin Simulacrum.


I let players switch out metamagic on a long rest.... why not? I could argue even on a short rest. Wizard's get arcane recovery.

Afaik that's what WotC already plans to do, at least Jeremy Crawford said so in an interview about the Class Feature Variants.


I see people constantly speaking of twinned and quicken, but as a long time sorcerer players they aren't priority to me. Subtle is always my first pick (however I've already talked a lot about it so I will just add the fact that it's cheap), then it's usually Empower, rerolling bad dice for 1 point (so After seeing the result) is a very safe and very cheap way to enhance your damages. Meanwhile using quicken to squeeze another cantrip for 2 points is expensive, can miss, not very powerful (it's still cantrip damage), and my personal opinion: boring. ...

I agree, Quicken is very expensive and Twinned is only worth it for spells of level 1-2 (maybe 3) and 7-9; to cast twinned Wish or twinned Foresight is just very, very powerful.

Empower is great because you have to use it so rarely: Only if you roll below average and have bad dice ("1"s and "2"s); double powerful on a Divine Soul. And when you use Empower you make efficient use of your spell slot; you don't want to spend a high-level slot on a spell that merely tingles the enemy because of a bad roll.

Subtle is an all-rounder, allowing secret/social magic, imitating Warcaster (use both hands), and making your spells Counterspell-proof.

Extended is good for Divine Souls, who can use it effectively with buffs like Death Ward or DoT spells like Spirit Guardians.

Similarly, Distant is good to turn Touch-range spells into long-range spells and to enhance the radius of a select few AoE spells. Word of Radiance with Distant spell and while under the effect of Enlarge/Reduce is a poor man's Spirit Guardians.

[JackPhoenix]

He said "a level 17 sorcerer", i.e. 9th-level spells. Sorcerers can use Twinned on Wish and thereby twin Simulacrum.

Wish can't be twinned, as it has a range of self. That remains true even if you use it to duplicate the effect of another spell.


Empower is great because you have to use it so rarely: Only if you roll below average and have bad dice ("1"s and "2"s); double powerful on a Divine Soul. And when you use Empower you make efficient use of your spell slot; you don't want to spend a high-level slot on a spell that merely tingles the enemy because of a bad roll.

If you use it so rarely, it's not worth to use the very limited number of metamagic picks for it.

[Theaitetos]

Wish can't be twinned, as it has a range of self. That remains true even if you use it to duplicate the effect of another spell.

https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf


Can my sorcerer use Twinned Spell on a spell duplicated by the casting of a wish spell? And if so, how many sorcery points does it cost?
Yes, you can. It costs the number of sorcery points appropriate for the level of the spell you’re duplicating.


If you use it so rarely, it's not worth to use the very limited number of metamagic picks for it.

On the contrary. The only thing limiting metamagic is the very limited amount of sorcery points, which means that you have to manage your SP very carefully; Empowered is an extremely powerful metamagic, as it can turn an otherwise wasted high-level spell-slot into an effectively used spell-slot for 1 SP; the rare use means you can use your other metamagics more often. Choosing several frequent-use metamagics is a complete waste, as you can't use them frequently anyway due to SP shortage.

[Deathtongue]

https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdfOn the contrary. The only thing limiting metamagic is the very limited amount of sorcery points, which means that you have to manage your SP very carefully; Empowered is an extremely powerful metamagic, as it can turn an otherwise wasted high-level spell-slot into an effectively used spell-slot for 1 SP; the rare use means you can use your other metamagics more often. Choosing several frequent-use metamagics is a complete waste, as you can't use them frequently anyway due to SP shortage.
My problem with Empower Spell is that until level 10, you only get two metamagics. You're bumping up against Careful, Quicken, Heighten, Subtle, Twin, and for some builds Extend. Making a Fireball shoot up from 28 damage to 36 damage for 1 Sorcery Point sounds and is great. But it comes at a major cost of versatility and Sorcerers are already struggling against 'why didn't you pick Light Cleric/Wizard/Sorlock/Artificer instead?'

Sorcerers should either get more metamagic or should be able to switch them around after a short rest, IMO.

[Nagog]

As far as advantages in spellcasting go, Wizards will have a larger amount of spells known. The amount of spells a Sorcerer knows varies based on level, capping out at 15 at Sorcerer 17. A Wizard, meanwhile, can add two Wizard spells to their spellbook every time they gain a level. They start with six spells, so by level 20 a Wizard will know 44 spells. (Obviously you might not get all the way to 20, but said advantage will be there throughout the game; for comparison, a Sorcerer starts with two spells!) They can, DM and campaign dependent, also copy other Wizard spells into their spellbook freely, if they have the opportunity.


Just a quick correction, don't Wizards only get one spell added to their spellbook per level? If I'm wrong and you're right, I need to update my necromancer's character sheet XD


I guess the more complicated question is, what are Sorcerers better at?
From what I've seen, Sorcerers have some pretty flexible abilities that are typically best when combined with other abilities. SorLock can spam Eldritch Blast like no other, Sorcadin can Smite like a mother all day long, Coffeelocks are pretty broken when built properly (and completely RAW). Overall, there isn't all that much a straight Sorcerer can do that another class or a Sorcerer Multiclass can't do better. I had some hopes that the Class Feature Varients UA a while back would both address the issues and give them something unique and give them a more solid standing among the classes, but it failed to do so.

[Chronic]

It's not so much as you use empower rarely, it's that you use it only when it matters, making it hard to beat cost/effect wise.
on a d6 you rerolls 1 and 2, 1 to 3 on d8, 1 to 4 or 5 on d12, and you only use it when it's a lower than average roll.

[AvatarVecna]

Welcome back! :smallsmile:

[Tharkun]

Just a quick correction, don't Wizards only get one spell added to their spellbook per level? If I'm wrong and you're right, I need to update my necromancer's character sheet XD

Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free.

[LudicSavant]

Quick tip:
It's very easy to calculate the expected value of an Empower Spell for any given roll in your head, even if you're not a math nerd like me. It's just the difference between the dice you're rerolling, and the average of that die size.

So for example, if you're rolling d8s (average 4.5) and rerolling a 1, a 2, and a 3, spending 1 SP on Empower Spell in that situation has an expected value of (4.5-1)+(4.5-2)+(4.5-3) damage.

To put it another way, rerolling a 1 on a d8 is worth an average of 3.5 damage, rerolling a 2 on a d8 is worth 2.5 damage, rerolling a 5 on a d8 is worth -0.5 damage (so generally don't do that), etc.

[Nagog]

Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free.

Well *scrubbed* in a box and call it Tuesday, I have a spellbook to update. XD

[Natteregn]

I LOVE playing a sorcerror!

We ahve went all the way to level.. 13 (I have two levels in fighter too)
And it is just lovely to be able to do stuff in fights!
I have never really been playing a wizard, so I can't compare the two, but I have played a warlock to level 10 and I dislike the limits of the warlock compared to sorceror.

it is a wild magic sorcs, and we have homebrewed stuff to make it more fun (like wild magic happens on a 5 and lower instead on nat 1s)

In combat, it is just nice to haste two of your peoble or polymorph two enemies (it is a problem in our game, our Gm has to throw so many monsters at us because we are 3 who can poly, and I can do it to two targets)

Quick spells is fun and lets you do stuff with my bonus action.

[Theaitetos]

My problem with Empower Spell is that until level 10, you only get two metamagics. You're bumping up against Careful, Quicken, Heighten, Subtle, Twin, and for some builds Extend. Making a Fireball shoot up from 28 damage to 36 damage for 1 Sorcery Point sounds and is great. But it comes at a major cost of versatility and Sorcerers are already struggling against 'why didn't you pick Light Cleric/Wizard/Sorlock/Artificer instead?'

Yes, you only have 2 metamagics until level 10 -- but you also have very few sorcery points. Without cannibalizing your spell-slots, how often can you Quicken at level 5? 2 times. How often can you Heigthen? Just once. Careful is crap and Extend is for Divine Souls only. At early levels you're investing all your sorcery points in Twinned, because boosting 1st- & 2nd-level spells is amazingly powerful in tier 1, and only later you're going for Subtle due to Counterspell and more difficult social encounters.

So with pretty much all your sorcery points already allocated to a powerful metamagic, you just don't have the resources to make regular use of a 2nd metamagic anyway. That's why Empower is great, because in those few situations that you need it, it is really powerful, and in the regular situations, where you don't need it, you have a better use for your sorcery points anyway.

It's as Chronic said, you use Empower only when it matters.


Sorcerers should either get more metamagic or should be able to switch them around after a short rest, IMO.

Yes, to both.

[Chronos]

If a wizard is facing an archer at 300' range, then she just stays behind one of the five stone walls between her and the archer, because when was the last time you saw a dungeon room bigger than 60'?. Or if she's outside, she gets behind a tree, or goes in a building. Or if, somehow, she's in a featureless plain with no cover at all over 300' distances, then she casts Invisibility and then does whatever the heck she wants (closing with the archer to use other spells, escaping, sitting down and eating lunch while ignoring the archer, whatever).

[RSP]

In my opinion, the Sorcerer suffers from a few design flaws, the first is that, to do what makes a Sorcerer unique (metamagic), they need to sacrifice their Spell casting. It’s very similar to the design flaw of the 4 Elements Monk (you either use your Ki to do 4 Elements stuff, or you use it to do monk stuff, not both; the other Monk subclasses work with the main chassis rather than competing with it, much like other full casters’ abilities work with their spell casting).

Bards and Wizards don’t suffer from this. Their class abilities work in tandem with their Spell casting. Bards can cast all day and use their Inspiration. Wizards can cast all day and use their Arcane Recovery, Ritual Casting, etc.

The Sorc has to choose: either use their Sorcerer Points to cast their spells or use them to fuel metamagic.

Sorcerers can cast as much as a Wizard who uses Arcane Recovery, but then they get no metamagic, while the Wizard can cast all their slots and still has more spells known, prepared, a better list, Ritual Casting, Spell Mastery and Signature Spell.

This is bad design in my opinion and makes the Wizard and Bard each at least a step above the Sorc.

Next, metamagic only really has 4 solid choices: Subtle, Quicken, Twin and Empower. Extend and Distant aren’t that great as most Sorc spells are fine with out them (Extend is better on a Divine Soul as the Cleric list has spells that can benefit significantly from it). Heighten, in my opinion, is a trap in that it costs too much to make good use of it at lower levels, and at higher levels the creatures you’d want to hit with your save or suck spells a) have great rolls to pass the save with Disadv, and b) have Legendary Resistances even if they fail. So you either waste 3 Sorc Points and the BBEG passes the save anyway; or you use that save or suck on a non-BBEG type and don’t need to use Heighten. Careful doesn’t do enough to protect those you’d not want to affect.

Out of those four metamagics, you can only really build around either Twin or Quicken d/t the lack of spells known and limited Sorc points at lower to mid levels.

So while the Sorc has a neat trick or two, the Wizard just blows them away with what they get out of their spell list and features. Find Familiar, Resilient Sphere, Dream, Scrying, Tensors Transformation, Contingency, etc are all fantastic spells with a ridiculous amount of versatility that a Sorc can only duplicate with Wish.

Simulacrum by itself dwarfs any metamagic (and in essence can duplicate or better the effects of them as well).

At lower levels, the Sorc suffers from limited resources to do what they’d like (outside of 1 encounter work days) and at higher levels the Wizard (and to a lesser extent the Bard) just can do way more: when a Sorc gets their 4th metamagic, the Wizard has Shield and Misty Step (or whatever) for free, all day.

The Sorcerer only shines in nova damage (if built that way and which naturally sacrifices options in a full work day), and in using Subtle, which is fantastic, but it’s necessity is very niche and usually can be worked around, campaign dependent.

For as cool as metamagic seems, it’s never really lived up to expectations, at least in my experience/how I see it. I feel a large part of this is that the Sorc, by design, has to choose between casting their full allotment of spells or using metamagic. A lesser part is their spell list (I don’t actually mind the Spells Known limitation if they had the Wizard’s list), which is excessively limited; and the lack of effectiveness in metamagic choices.

[KorvinStarmast]

In that case, where are all my dragons!
At the moment, they are playing busily in Hearthstone games. :smallbiggrin:

I suspect that would've been too complex for what 5e was supposed to be. Yep. We tried over the years a variety of variations on "how magic works" and added complexity rarely paid off in satisfying game play.

Yes, to both. Only need to be able to swap out, but I've bene advocating for one more at around level 7ever since the class became one I tried to play (2016)

In my opinion, the Sorcerer suffers from a few design flaws, the first is that, to do what makes a Sorcerer unique (metamagic), they need to sacrifice their Spell casting. It’s very similar to the design flaw of the 4 Elements Monk

Bards and Wizards don’t suffer from this. Their class abilities work in tandem with their Spell casting. Bards can cast all day and use their Inspiration. Wizards can cast all day and use their Arcane Recovery, Ritual Casting, etc.

For as cool as metamagic seems, it’s never really lived up to expectations, at least in my experience/how I see it. If the sorce got to use more of them, it would be helpful.

[Bardon]

The Sorcerer only shines in nova damage (if built that way and which naturally sacrifices options in a full work day), and in using Subtle, which is fantastic, but it’s necessity is very niche and usually can be worked around, campaign dependent.


I just wanted to address the issue of Subtle, and your statement that it's "very niche". Social situations are not really what I'd consider Niche and Subtle Suggestion is an amazingly effective way to move things forward in non-combat situations, for one example.

The other fantastic element of Subtle is of course that you don't need to do the Verbal or Somatic aspects of a spell, which makes being bound & gagged a trivial situation (admittedly niche there) or one of the very best aspects of Subtle: It makes your spell immune to Counterspell! That alone, especially at higher levels, is an extremely potent ability for a single Sorcery point! You can even Subtle Counterspell an enemy wizard's spells and they can't counter your Counterspell.

So I would respectfully disagree with your categorisation of Subtle as "very niche and usually can be worked around".

[JackPhoenix]

https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf


Can my sorcerer use Twinned Spell on a spell duplicated by the casting of a wish spell? And if so, how many sorcery points does it cost?
Yes, you can. It costs the number of sorcery points appropriate for the level of the spell you’re duplicating.

I don't know how he got that ruling, but he's patently wrong by RAW.

Twinned Spell: "When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self..."
Wish: "Range: Self"


On the contrary. The only thing limiting metamagic is the very limited amount of sorcery points, which means that you have to manage your SP very carefully; Empowered is an extremely powerful metamagic, as it can turn an otherwise wasted high-level spell-slot into an effectively used spell-slot for 1 SP; the rare use means you can use your other metamagics more often. Choosing several frequent-use metamagics is a complete waste, as you can't use them frequently anyway due to SP shortage.

Metamagic has a number of limitation. The amount of sorcery points available is one of them, but it's a limitation that can be easily circumvented by various means: flexible casting, capstone, or warlock multiclass. The number of picks available is the main limitation, and it's a limitation with no way around.

It's more of a waste to use one of those limited picks on Empowered, and then spend those "very limited" sorcery points on it. Another problem with Empowered is that all it does is increasing the damage a bit. Unless you're looking for numbers to brag about on a forum, few extra points of damage are rarely worth the investment. Everyone does damage in combat, sometimes you roll low, sometimes you roll high, it'll all averages out in the end, and you can't ensure Empowered will make a difference when you need it. Which is yet another problem with Empowered: It relies too much on random chance. If you're unlucky, you may end up wasting those SPs to *lose* damage, even when the propability is on your side, and even if it works, it may not be enough to end the encounter, which is the reason why you're using it in the first place (and if not, you shouldn't be using it). The only other metamagic that does something similar is Heightened... as the target could've failed the save even without it.... but even then, forcing a disadvantage on save usually has bigger impact than few extra points of damage. All other metamagic can be used strategically, it does its thing whenever you need it without relying on circumstances outside your control.

[RSP]

I just wanted to address the issue of Subtle, and your statement that it's "very niche".
...
So I would respectfully disagree with your categorisation of Subtle as "very niche and usually can be worked around".

Actually, I said it’s “necessity is very niche,” as in it’s nice to have for those social situations, but if it’s not an option, there will be plenty of ways to work that situation out another way (persuasion check perhaps, or just RPing). It will be niche to have “the only option to be successful here is Subtle.” And if that does happen, it’s the DM specifically wanting the Subtle Sorc to shine.

It’s likewise usually fairly easy to get around Counterspell, either through the 60’ range limit or just by ducking out of sight while you cast. In the current campaign I’m in, both the DM and myself practice this whether we think there’s a Counterspeller around or not (as any caster who’s familiar with the spell would in-game) and it’s been pretty easy to manage.

That said, I believe I stated multiple times that I do love Subtle.

[Son of A Lich!]

I think three different things could greatly improve the game play of Sorcerers while keeping the raw magic feel of their class;

1) More Unique Spells -

It makes sense that Sorcerers don't have a great number of spells for themselves, due to how "New" the class is to the D&D mythos, but they ought to have more that behave... differently. I completely understand that Fireball is a classic, but IMO that should be largely a Wizard only spell. If there were unique sorcerer spells tied to each magical origin or bloodline that behave in line with the blood line's MO (Like a Dragon's breath, Wall of Thunder, Butterflies of Discord or what have you) that were expected to be cast frequently (to maintain balance), Sorcerers wouldn't feel like hindered wizards. They would be a raw, torrent of spell casting that feels a bit undefined but could be sculpted out with Metamagic to make unique to the situation at hand.

2) Sorcery points independant of spell slots/more spell slots -

I like the idea of burning unused spell slots into sorcery points, but if that is the only way to get a consistant stream of them going and you lose them when you take a long rest, it encourages players to not cast spells... which is the whole point of the class. I really like the idea of Sorcerers getting two additional slots at each level tied to a class feature. This way, you can multi-class into other 9th level spell casting classes and not gain additional slots or stick to sorcerers and get a boat load of spell casting slots at the cost of spells known. So, something like "Unbridled Power - At level 1, you gain two additional level 1 spell slots. at level 3 of sorcerer, you gain two additional spell slots of 2nd level." etc. This would allow you to burn your extras (as you weren't likely to need all of them) while keeping a few in reserve for big plays.

I also thought of just simply awarding more spell points to sorcerer levels, but I think that would be a pain to balance effectively.

3) Meta Magic tied to Subclasses/Overhaul of Subclasses -

I like the idea of wild mages being able to change damage types of spells. Dragon sorcerers should be able to choose a cone in place of the other spell shapes, I think Shadow and Subtle dovetail together very smoothly. Like Skills, you should be able to choose your meta magics early and be able to acquire new ones as the class progresses and replace ones that you knew already.

That is just the first idea that popped into my head when first reading over the class when 5e came out.

Maybe have a few meta magic options that are specifically tied to a bloodline, but over all, the subclasses really really need some quality loving. If we give them a list of spells like a domain to help with the starvation of fewer spells known, add some defining features to make them more akin to choosing a role in the party, and let the subclasses flex a bit and get some spiffy things no one else gets, you'd be well on your way to having Sorcerers being more then a dip for Paladins/Warlocks.

....

That's my opinion.

[SociopathFriend]

I think three different things could greatly improve the game play of Sorcerers while keeping the raw magic feel of their class;

3) Meta Magic tied to Subclasses/Overhaul of Subclasses -

I like the idea of wild mages being able to change damage types of spells. Dragon sorcerers should be able to choose a cone in place of the other spell shapes, I think Shadow and Subtle dovetail together very smoothly. Like Skills, you should be able to choose your meta magics early and be able to acquire new ones as the class progresses and replace ones that you knew already.

That is just the first idea that popped into my head when first reading over the class when 5e came out.

Maybe have a few meta magic options that are specifically tied to a bloodline, but over all, the subclasses really really need some quality loving. If we give them a list of spells like a domain to help with the starvation of fewer spells known, add some defining features to make them more akin to choosing a role in the party, and let the subclasses flex a bit and get some spiffy things no one else gets, you'd be well on your way to having Sorcerers being more then a dip for Paladins/Warlocks.

That's my opinion.

I do agree Sorcerers could use some tinkering but I'd personally say what I personally would enjoy would be the Subclasses feeling more unique.
Look at Draconic for a moment:
More hp and scales
Extra damage for your element, resistance to the same
Wings
Dragon fear
Fully half of that is just stats.

In comparison I'll pull on the Abyssal Bloodline from Pathfinder because I love it:
Bonus skill
Bonus spells
Bonus feat access
Buff to summoned creatures
Claws, resistances, stat buffs, more summoning buffs
All of the above but better

You had a lot that showed your bloodline mattered. Unfortunately while the best solution it's also the one that requires the most work and so is the least likely to happen. Instead you've got stuff like the suggestion that Sorcerers get to change the damage of their spells... because nothing says, "I draw my powers from the gold dragon blood in my veins!" like turning your fire into acid.

[Zetakya]

They should really have made Sorcerer work entirely on Spell Points, no defined Spell Slots at all, just "spend an amount of SP equal to the level of the spell you are casting, plus the cost of any Metamagics you are using"

[Deathtongue]

Without cannibalizing your spell-slots, how often can you Quicken at level 5? 2 times. How often can you Heigthen? Just once.In my opinion, your comparison is too focused around the very low levels: Empower Spell is powerful as hell when you first get one of FB/LB, which a lot of Sorcerers will pick. But you're stuck with it for seven levels, so unless your campaign is ending in the very low levels, you have to think about the long term. And there are some quirks of Fireball/LB, or more specifically Sorcerer spellcasting, that make it and thus Empower Spell drop off in power later on.

For example, let's take a look at Empower Spell: it start's to sag in in the long term. You're spending a sorcery point to, if you're using a hard-hitter like Fireball, improve your damage by 4-8 points. Quite good. But a Warlock 2 / Sorcerer 4 Sorlock would be looking at spending two points to improve their damage by 24-26 points with either Hexblade's Curse or Hex. You can use Empower Spell more often, sure, but you get less bang for your buck. But what really hurts (but not ruins) Empower Spell's long-term usefulness is because for most sorcerers, Fireball/Lightning Bolt is going to be their damaging mainstay. Remember, at level 8 you have NINE spells known, and they're going to be tied up with Absorb Elements, Shield, Polymorph, and Counterspell. Your cantrips do two dice of damage. Picking more than 2 damaging spells eligible for Empower Spell is not going to fly.

Heighten Spell: Not all that great when you first get it. In fact it will take you until you're around level 7 or so. But by then, Heightening a Fear or a Suggestion or a Banishment is a game-changer.


Careful is crap
Again, this to me reflects a low-level mentality. Careful is never one of my picks, because I can only get two picks, but Careful lets you get more targets into your Hypnotic Pattern, Web, Fear, and Watery Sphere. I strongly considered it for my Sorceradin at level 9.


and only later you're going for Subtle due to Counterspell and more difficult social encounters.
Like I said: Subtle Spell is so utterly dominating later on that if you're going to be stuck with just two metamagics for the next seven levels you may as well pay for slightly less power now for much more power later. Aside from how most 5E battlefields are not goat pastures, many of the spells you want to use have a range of 60 feet or less. Or how if you're just standing at the border of enemy spellcaster movement (rather than getting as close as you can without exposing yourself) they can dart out of your Counterspell range as well. And of course blocking a Counter-Counterspell is VERY powerful once stronger spellcasting enemies like the Hobgoblin Devastator and the Necromancer show up. And I think you are way underestimating the ability to use spells in social encounters. Subtle Spell: Guidance (if DS), Hex (if Sorlock), Suggestion, and Enhance Ability make Subtle Spell worth it when you get it IMMEDIATELY, as opposed to Empower Spell which requires you to get Fireball or Lightning Bolt before it gets good.


So with pretty much all your sorcery points already allocated to a powerful metamagic, you just don't have the resources to make regular use of a 2nd metamagic anyway. That's why Empower is great, because in those few situations that you need it, it is really powerful, and in the regular situations, where you don't need it, you have a better use for your sorcery points anyway.As a Fire Emblem Player, I understand the concept of 'much more power now for slightly less power later'; hell, I play an Evoker and am going to release a guide today and I strongly recommend for Evokers to take a level of Hexblade Warlock.

But it's not like Empower Spell is going to do much for you in your pre-Fireball/LB existence anyway. What spells, exactly, are you planning to use Empower on at levels 3 and 4? Planning to use it on Shatter when you roll a 1 and a 3 on two of the dice for an extra 3-4 damage?

[Chronic]

I don't know how he got that ruling, but he's patently wrong by RAW.

Twinned Spell: "When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self..."
Wish: "Range: Self"



Metamagic has a number of limitation. The amount of sorcery points available is one of them, but it's a limitation that can be easily circumvented by various means: flexible casting, capstone, or warlock multiclass. The number of picks available is the main limitation, and it's a limitation with no way around.

It's more of a waste to use one of those limited picks on Empowered, and then spend those "very limited" sorcery points on it. Another problem with Empowered is that all it does is increasing the damage a bit. Unless you're looking for numbers to brag about on a forum, few extra points of damage are rarely worth the investment. Everyone does damage in combat, sometimes you roll low, sometimes you roll high, it'll all averages out in the end, and you can't ensure Empowered will make a difference when you need it. Which is yet another problem with Empowered: It relies too much on random chance. If you're unlucky, you may end up wasting those SPs to *lose* damage, even when the propability is on your side, and even if it works, it may not be enough to end the encounter, which is the reason why you're using it in the first place (and if not, you shouldn't be using it). The only other metamagic that does something similar is Heightened... as the target could've failed the save even without it.... but even then, forcing a disadvantage on save usually has bigger impact than few extra points of damage. All other metamagic can be used strategically, it does its thing whenever you need it without relying on circumstances outside your control.

I'm sorry to say it bluntly but you are wrong. Damage is everything in fights in this edition. It's not random, its entire purpose is to reduce randomness and you roll only when your previous rolls are low, second it allows you to roll MORE (the more you roll, the closer you are to average) , and the lower the rolls the higher the chance you will roll better. It's cheap, this is literally the cheapest option available. So you can spam it.
On top of that it scales really well since it scales on the number of dice rolled, so it's useful during the entire leveling. The "you may lose damage" is incredibly rare if you follow a simple guideline. And the more dice you throw for a spell, the less likely it will happens.
All of this makes empower the most reliable and cheap option in fights. I use it constantly, and not only does it increase my damages mathematically, it prevents the frustration coming from bad rolls at crucial moments.

[Zetakya]

The crucial point with Empower is that unlike all the other Metamagics you don't decide on using it until after you've cast the spell.

All of the others are "when you cast a spell", but Empowered is "when you roll damage for a spell".

So unless it's likely to give you more extra damage than whatever threshold you set yourself you don't need to spend the SP.

[JumboWheat01]

They should really have made Sorcerer work entirely on Spell Points, no defined Spell Slots at all, just "spend an amount of SP equal to the level of the spell you are casting, plus the cost of any Metamagics you are using"

I think I remember a thread on here somewhere/somewhen about doing just that as an experiment. I don't remember how the experiment went on, though.

And that is a thing about Sorcery Points, they're woefully inefficient if you want to make more Spell Slots (hey, sometimes you do.) Even a First level slot takes two Sorcery Points, which could instead go to two Metamagics. Twinning a spell (when you can) is actually a much more efficient way of casting a spell multiple times and it doesn't even have the slot level cap that creating a Spell Slot does. Unfortunately, you can't always Twin a spell, and some that you do you're stuck with the same effect (such as Twin Enlarge/Reduce, you have to either Enlarge two things or Reduce two things, can't do one of each.)

[Zetakya]

I think I remember a thread on here somewhere/somewhen about doing just that as an experiment. I don't remember how the experiment went on, though.

And that is a thing about Sorcery Points, they're woefully inefficient if you want to make more Spell Slots (hey, sometimes you do.)

I would be interested to read that thread, if you happen to find it.

I think the main reasons that slot creation doesn't get used are the SP > slot inefficiency and the Action economy of requiring the Bonus Action both to liquidate slots to SP and create a slot from SP.

One of the other issues with Sorcerer is that almost all of the subclasses amount to "one of my ancestors had nookie with a supernatural creature" and tend to result in damage type lock and are all pretty restrictive in terms of limiting characterisation. Bluntly, more than any other class the Sorcerer limits the character background to being a Sorcerer.

[LudicSavant]

Again, this to me reflects a low-level mentality. Careful is never one of my picks, because I can only get two picks, but Careful lets you get more targets into your Hypnotic Pattern, Web, Fear, and Watery Sphere. I strongly considered it for my Sorceradin at level 9.

Careful doesn't actually work with some of those spells (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/06/06/can-careful-spell-be-used-with-cloudkill/).

Careful's wording is actually quite restrictive (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47423/can-a-sorcerer-protect-their-friend-from-web-by-using-careful-spell).

[Deathtongue]

Careful doesn't actually work with some of those spells (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/06/06/can-careful-spell-be-used-with-cloudkill/).EDIT: Jeremy Crawford is just making stuff up. Nothing in the option says anything about 'first turn you use it'. Neither does the errata.

[LudicSavant]

It does for the first round, which so long as the melee frontline aren't a bunch of goldfish is really all you need. If your melee frontline doesn't move 5 feet to the side out of the borders of a Web or Watery Sphere spell after their first free round, that's on their head.


It does for the first round

No, it doesn't actually. It does not affect spells like Web at all (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47423/can-a-sorcerer-protect-their-friend-from-web-by-using-careful-spell).

Edit: The post I replied to got edited after I replied.

[Deathtongue]

No, it doesn't actually. It does not affect spells like Web at all (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47423/can-a-sorcerer-protect-their-friend-from-web-by-using-careful-spell).
I'm glad I looked at your link. I saw this:

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/140221/with-the-2019-sage-advice-compendium-release-are-jeremy-crawfords-tweets-consi

Thank God we can put this Jeremy Crawford crap to rest.

[LudicSavant]

I'm glad I looked at your link. I saw this:

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/140221/with-the-2019-sage-advice-compendium-release-are-jeremy-crawfords-tweets-consi

Thank God we can put this Jeremy Crawford crap to rest.

It's not the rule because Jeremy Crawford said it. It's the rule because it says that on page 102 of the Player's Handbook.

[Deathtongue]

It's not the rule because Jeremy Crawford said it. It's the rule because it says that on page 102 of the Player's Handbook.

"When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell's full force. To do so, you spend 1 sorcery point and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell."

What am I missing here? Web forces you to make a saving throw. Not right away, but if you move into a square the Web covers you don't have the option not not making a saving throw.

[LudicSavant]

"When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell's full force. To do so, you spend 1 sorcery point and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell."

What am I missing here? Web forces you to make a saving throw. Not right away, but if you move into a square the Web covers you don't have the option not not making a saving throw.

There's an explanation of it in the link here: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47423/can-a-sorcerer-protect-their-friend-from-web-by-using-careful-spell.

As for ragging on JC, it's worth noting that people were reading the rule this way literally years before JC's tweet about it.

[Deathtongue]

There's an explanation of it in the link here: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47423/can-a-sorcerer-protect-their-friend-from-web-by-using-careful-spellYes, I saw that. "When it does it: When the spell is cast, and they are making a saving throw." And I claim that premise is unsupported by anything in the PHB. Why does it only work when the spell is cast? As far as I can tell, the writer is showing confusion between 'casting a spell', which is not atomic, and the 'Cast a Spell' Action, which is.


As for ragging on JC, it's worth noting that people were reading the rule this way literally years before JC's tweet about it.So?

[Theaitetos]

In my opinion, your comparison is too focused around the very low levels: Empower Spell is powerful as hell when you first get one of FB/LB, which a lot of Sorcerers will pick.

Most games never progress to these high levels. That makes Fireball one of the best damage spell for most of the actual game.


For example, let's take a look at Empower Spell: it start's to sag in in the long term. You're spending a sorcery point to, if you're using a hard-hitter like Fireball, improve your damage by 4-8 points. Quite good. But a Warlock 2 / Sorcerer 4 Sorlock would be looking at spending two points to improve their damage by 24-26 points with either Hexblade's Curse or Hex.

I don't know how you reach those numbers? What are you calculating/saying? Hex is a single-target spell, Fireball is a big AoE.


Remember, at level 8 you have NINE spells known, and they're going to be tied up with Absorb Elements, Shield, Polymorph, and Counterspell. Your cantrips do two dice of damage. Picking more than 2 damaging spells eligible for Empower Spell is not going to fly.

So?


Heighten Spell: Not all that great when you first get it. In fact it will take you until you're around level 7 or so. But by then, Heightening a Fear or a Suggestion or a Banishment is a game-changer.

Heightened is only worth it on very high-level, i.e. save-or-suck, spells. It's literally a waste on Suggestion: if your spell fails, use 3 sorcery points to make another 2nd-level spell-slot and cast it again; that's a higher chance of success than using Heightened. Fear is not a spell a sorcerer would take, and Banishment competes with your concentration, so you'd use it only on targets where you're likely to succeed anyway.



Like I said: Subtle Spell is so utterly dominating later on that if you're going to be stuck with just two metamagics for the next seven levels you may as well pay for slightly less power now for much more power later. Aside from how most 5E battlefields are not goat pastures, many of the spells you want to use have a range of 60 feet or less. Or how if you're just standing at the border of enemy spellcaster movement (rather than getting as close as you can without exposing yourself) they can dart out of your Counterspell range as well.

What has range got to do with Subtle?


And of course blocking a Counter-Counterspell is VERY powerful once stronger spellcasting enemies like the Hobgoblin Devastator and the Necromancer show up. And I think you are way underestimating the ability to use spells in social encounters. Subtle Spell: Guidance (if DS), Hex (if Sorlock), Suggestion, and Enhance Ability make Subtle Spell worth it when you get it IMMEDIATELY, as opposed to Empower Spell which requires you to get Fireball or Lightning Bolt before it gets good.

Nobody says Subtle is a bad metamagic.


But it's not like Empower Spell is going to do much for you in your pre-Fireball/LB existence anyway. What spells, exactly, are you planning to use Empower on at levels 3 and 4? Planning to use it on Shatter when you roll a 1 and a 3 on two of the dice for an extra 3-4 damage?

What spells, exactly, are you planning to use Heightened on at levels 3 and 4?
Wait, I'm sorry, at levels 3 and 4 you only have enough sorcery points to use Heightened once, so let me cut out the plural from that question: What spell, exactly, are you planning to use Heightened on at levels 3 and 4?

[Deathtongue]

Most games never progress to these high levels. That makes Fireball one of the best damage spell for most of the actual game.What do you mean, most of the actual game? What level do you think most games end at? If you think most games end at level 5, Twin Spell is in fact the best metamagic option because Twin Protection from Evil and Good or Suggestion or Phantasmal Force is encounter crushing as soon as you get it, instead of making you wait two more levels to get any real use out of it like Empower.


I don't know how you reach those numbers? What are you calculating/saying? Hex is a single-target spell, Fireball is a big AoE.Both a Quicked Hex + EB and an Empowered Fireball are gated by Sorcery Points. If the argument for Empowered Fireball over Quickened Hex + EB is that Fireball is more efficient on points, we need to explain why for 2 Sorcery Points that combo does more than twice as much damage.


Heightened is only worth it on very high-level, i.e. save-or-suck, spells. It's literally a waste on Suggestion: if your spell fails, use 3 sorcery points to make another 2nd-level spell-slot and cast it again; that's a higher chance of success than using Heightened.Here's the thing: you don't get a lot of spells as a sorcerer. At level 7, you have one 4th-level slot, two 3rd-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and four 1st-level slots. And may be using your higher-level slots for things, such as Counterspell or Fly. If the effect is sufficiently strong, like Phantasmal Force or Suggestion, 'wasting' Heightened Spell in this way is absolutely a valid choice.


Fear is not a spell a sorcerer would take,Why not? Fear is encounter-crushing is used correctly. Monsters drop their held objects, draw OAs, waste their actions, and don't even get a save until they've been ejected from the battlefield for at least a round. Unless you're fighting a lot of fear immune enemies (which are much rarer in 5E than in 3E or even 4E D&D) it's one of the best spells for its level in the game, especially when you first get it.


and Banishment competes with your concentration, so you'd use it only on targets where you're likely to succeed anyway.Charisma save proficiency is more common than one would think, especially in the mid levels. It's still a good save to target, but there are a surprising number of enemies that have protection against it like Frost and Fire Giants. +4 isn't insurmountable against a DC of 15-16, but I don't like those odds.


What has range got to do with Subtle?Because you can cast spells within 60' of other spellcasters without getting Counterspell-blocked. If you don't have it, you'll have to withdraw to outside that area if you don't want to risk a Counterspell, which is undesirable for a number of reasons.


Wait, I'm sorry, at levels 3 and 4 you only have enough sorcery points to use Heightened once, so let me cut out the plural from that question: What spell, exactly, are you planning to use Heightened on at levels 3 and 4?Heightened isn't very good at level 3 or 4; it takes until around level 6 or so, when spells like Hypnotic Pattern and Fear show up, to really get some use out of it.

That makes its availability worse than Twin Spell and for some builds Quickened Spell, which are good as soon as you get them. But it's availability is only slightly worse than Empower Spell, taking 3 levels to be at full usability instead of 2.

[RSP]

Both a Quicked Hex + EB and an Empowered Fireball are gated by Sorcery Points. If the argument for Empowered Fireball over Quickened Hex + EB is that Fireball is more efficient on points, we need to explain why for 2 Sorcery Points that combo does more than twice as much damage.

Are you basing your comparison of how much damage they do on only a single target, because that’s what your argument sounds like (or reads like, in this case). If you Empowered a fireball and increase it’s damage by ~10 points, but have 4 targets, that’s 40 more HP of damage you did, not 10.

[Theaitetos]

Both a Quicked Hex + EB and an Empowered Fireball are gated by Sorcery Points. If the argument for Empowered Fireball over Quickened Hex + EB is that Fireball is more efficient on points, we need to explain why for 2 Sorcery Points that combo does more than twice as much damage.

Single-target spell vs AoE spell. Your comparison is worthless.


Here's the thing: you don't get a lot of spells as a sorcerer. At level 7, you have one 4th-level slot, two 3rd-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and four 1st-level slots. And may be using your higher-level slots for things, such as Counterspell or Fly. If the effect is sufficiently strong, like Phantasmal Force or Suggestion, 'wasting' Heightened Spell in this way is absolutely a valid choice.

Heightened gives disadvantage once on 1 single saving throw for 1 creature, at a cost of 3 sorcery points, and you have to use it in advance, i.e. before you know if it even makes a difference (because the enemy would have failed or saved either way).

For the same amount of those 3 sorcery points, Empowered can be used on 3 Fireballs, after seeing that they do under-average damage, and turn them into 3 above-average damage Fireballs.


Why not? Fear is encounter-crushing is used correctly. Monsters drop their held objects, draw OAs, waste their actions, and don't even get a save until they've been ejected from the battlefield for at least a round. Unless you're fighting a lot of fear immune enemies (which are much rarer in 5E than in 3E or even 4E D&D) it's one of the best spells for its level in the game, especially when you first get it.

Charisma save proficiency is more common than one would think, especially in the mid levels. It's still a good save to target, but there are a surprising number of enemies that have protection against it like Frost and Fire Giants. +4 isn't insurmountable against a DC of 15-16, but I don't like those odds.

Heightened isn't very good at level 3 or 4; it takes until around level 6 or so, when spells like Hypnotic Pattern and Fear show up, to really get some use out of it.

Heightened works only on 1 target, not all the targets of Fear or Hypnotic Pattern. Using 3 sorcery points to give disadvantage on 1 save for 1 creature is an absolute waste for low-level spells like Fear.

I'd say 3 empowered Fireballs are much more encounter-crushing...


Because you can cast spells within 60' of other spellcasters without getting Counterspell-blocked. If you don't have it, you'll have to withdraw to outside that area if you don't want to risk a Counterspell, which is undesirable for a number of reasons.

Or you cast Counterspell yourself.

Again: Nobody says Subtle is a bad metamagic.

[Deathtongue]

Are you basing your comparison of how much damage they do on only a single target, because that’s what your argument sounds like (or reads like, in this case). If you Empowered a fireball and increase it’s damage by ~10 points, but have 4 targets, that’s 40 more HP of damage you did, not 10.Critical existence failure combined with the way D&D scales monster hit points (there's a HUGE leap between CR1 and CR3) doesn't make 10-25% increases to AoE damage all that amazing. Sometimes it'll just take things right to the threshold of viability for a follow-up attack, but as time goes on getting in multiple attacks, even if single target, has a bigger impact than increasing AoE damage.

[Deathtongue]

Heightened gives disadvantage once on 1 single saving throw for 1 creature, at a cost of 3 sorcery points, and you have to use it in advance, i.e. before you know if it even makes a difference (because the enemy would have failed or saved either way).

For the same amount of those 3 sorcery points, Empowered can be used on 3 Fireballs, after seeing that they do under-average damage, and turn them into 3 above-average damage Fireballs.You don't even get three above-average damage fireballs at level 5, not unless you convert all of your sorcery points.

Two: I don't really care much about specific, retroactives regret when making my choices. I care more about the averages. I don't sweat it when Heighten Spell or whatever turns out to be pointless (both d20s would've caused it to fail or succeed), because the averages are on my side.


Heightened works only on 1 target, not all the targets of Fear or Hypnotic Pattern. Using 3 sorcery points to give disadvantage on 1 save for 1 creature is an absolute waste for low-level spells like Fear.What do you mean, a waste? 5E D&D isn't like 3E D&D or 4E D&D. Low-level spells retain viability for much longer in this edition than high-level ones. I've played several wizards up past level 12 (a Bladesinger, an Illusionist, and an Evoker) and Fear is one of my favorite spells. I'd give up any of my class features, even heavy-hitters like Overchannel or Illusory Reality, to have just two shots of Heighten. Even if it could only be used on spells of 3rd level or below.


I'd say 3 empowered Fireballs are much more encounter-crushing...
Yes, at low level, when you get it. But Fireballs get worse and worse as an encounter clearer as the game goes on. Fireball will clean-sweep a Deadly encounter at level 5, especially if you Empower it. At level 9? Not so much.


Again: Nobody says Subtle is a bad metamagic.
The point is: Subtle isn't all that good when you first get it. So long as people aren't screwing you with Xanathar's material component visibility rules, you can use it for stuff like Enhance Ability in social situations, but where it really shines is its interactions with Counterspell and, if you're a Divine Soul Sorcerer, Silence.

[Theaitetos]

You don't even get three above-average damage fireballs at level 5, not unless you convert all of your sorcery points.

At level 5, you have two 3rd-level spell-slots & five sorcery points (turned into another 3rd-level spell-slot). Result: 3 Fireballs. Zero spell-slots converted.


Two: I don't really care much about specific, retroactives regret when making my choices. I care more about the averages. I don't sweat it when Heighten Spell or whatever turns out to be pointless (both d20s would've caused it to fail or succeed), because the averages are on my side.

Empowered is useful in 100% of used cases.
Heightened is useful in ~15% of used cases.
But the average is on your side?
Are you trying to outdo Brian Williams on math...? :smallconfused:

[Zetakya]

The point with Empowered - at the risk of repeating myself - is that you decide after you see the damage roll.

At low levels, it might be worth is to re-roll a single one on a damage roll.

At high levels, you don't want to be using it unless you've got 2 or even 3 dice that have a big chance of being improved by the re-roll.

It also intrinsically likes big dice. It's way more valuable on D12s than D4s

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Most people will tell you there's no reason to play a Sorcerer over a Wizard. Metamagic in 5e is very restrictive and Sorcerers can only know a few handful of spells, while Wizards get more spells and rituals.

Sorcerers are the better designed class, even if wizards are more powerful.

Sorcerers get class features! Like, more than one or two, and they're really good class features!

I prefer Sorcerers over Wizards for many reasons, you have plenty of options and those options can be dynamic. Many people like to say the Sorcerer is the dumber of the two options, but you can play a Sorcerer with just as much or more tactics than a Wizard.

Sorcerers are like Rogues and Barbarians, they have tactics built into their class that many overlook.

My biggest gripe with the Sorcerer is that they didn't flesh out metamagic and don't of magic very well. I think they feared the Sorcerer being broken but the Homebrew I've seen makes the Sorcerer about on par with the wizard.

Subclasses are rather meh for the Sorcerer, but the core class makes up for the meh ones.

Sorcerers make better controllers than Wizards. Wizards have to watch where drop a spell like Hypnotic Pattern, the Sorcerer with Careful spell just drops it like it's hot.

The Sorcerer design is kind of a mess, but what is there is amazing in all three legs of the game, so I can give it a pass. They should have had a base d8 hit die tho.


Metamagics

Subtle, Careful, Heighten, Quicken, Twin (for buffs), and Empower (combo this with Elemental Adept) are all top tier choices.

Divine Sorcerers get Silence. You can wreck an enemy caster with silence, a party member with grapple, and then some subtle spells.

Careful Hypnotic Pattern.

Heighten at later levels, pass at lower levels.

Quicken or Twin can be used for damage but I actually love it as a way to get off buffs or debuffs. Hell, at the right levels a Twin spell is essentially getting a extra level out of the spell. Hold Person at 2nd level can be twinned to duplicate a 3rd level spell! Enlarge/Reduce is another favorite of mine with twin. I hardly ever use these for direct damage.

Side note, I now want to make a Sorcerer that converts all spells into SP and uses them on cantrips. Maybe make a subclass around this idea...

Edit 2

One more thing. If you want to be a damage dealer at low levels, grab some Dex and a crossbow. Use your action to shoot the crossbow and Quicken to cast a spell. You can grab non-firebolt cantrips for the special effects and grab firebolt later on for direct damage.

Quicken a spell like Hold Person. Move within 5'. Shoot said target for a critical hit. Move away. The paralyzed target is incapacitated (can't take actions or reactions) so you don't have to worry about problems with firing too close or AO. Your Allies then get to attack too... Fun times.

[RSP]

Critical existence failure combined with the way D&D scales monster hit points (there's a HUGE leap between CR1 and CR3) doesn't make 10-25% increases to AoE damage all that amazing. Sometimes it'll just take things right to the threshold of viability for a follow-up attack, but as time goes on getting in multiple attacks, even if single target, has a bigger impact than increasing AoE damage.

1 Sorc Point to turn that 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6 Fireball (the 1’s and 2’s are from an actual fireball roll our last session - don’t remember what the other dice were), into 5, 4, 3, 6, 1, 3, 4, 6, for an increase of 12; on 7 targets, is well worth it. And yes, this could absolutely be the difference to end an encounter, vs those 7 targets getting at least one more round of actions.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

1 Sorc Point to turn that 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6 Fireball (the 1’s and 2’s are from an actual fireball roll our last session - don’t remember what the other dice were), into 5, 4, 3, 6, 1, 3, 4, 6, for an increase of 12; on 7 targets, is well worth it. And yes, this could absolutely be the difference to end an encounter, vs those 7 targets getting at least one more round of actions.

Abyss yeah, brotha!

One of the best things about empower isn't the white room numbers, but feeling awesome when you hurt the enemy just a bit more than expected.

Besides, team game, you don't need to kill the enemy, just set them up to be killed.

[Chronic]

Honestly hearing people speaking of quicken to squizz an attack or a cantrip hurt me a little more every time. Considering the cost of the metamagic and the fact that the attack will need to hit after, the average damage per sorcery point is abysmal.

[Amechra]

Honestly, I wonder how the Sorcerer would play if you eliminated sorcery points, gave the Sorcerer Arcane Recovery, then refactored metamagic to be free.

The only metamagics I can really see being an issue being at-will are Quickened and Twinned. Maybe Distant as well (or, at least, the bit where it turns touch spells into ranged spells)?

[Garfunion]

Honestly, I wonder how the Sorcerer would play if you eliminated sorcery points, gave the Sorcerer Arcane Recovery, then refactored metamagic to be free.

The only metamagics I can really see being an issue being at-will are Quickened and Twinned. Maybe Distant as well (or, at least, the bit where it turns touch spells into ranged spells)?

I would have Quicken only affect cantrips. As for Twinned; you must spend a spell slot equal to or greater than the spell you are casting.

[RSP]

Honestly, I wonder how the Sorcerer would play if you eliminated sorcery points, gave the Sorcerer Arcane Recovery, then refactored metamagic to be free.

The only metamagics I can really see being an issue being at-will are Quickened and Twinned. Maybe Distant as well (or, at least, the bit where it turns touch spells into ranged spells)?

It probably works to model it after Bard’s Inspiration, if you want to mess with it. Cha mod uses of metamagic per day; at 5th level cha mod uses per SR.

[CapnWildefyr]

Two comments and one question:

1. Wizards do not get 2 spells "for free" each level, as has been implied -- nothing on p114 of the PH says "free," you still have to spend money and time to copy them into your spellbook. It also requires time and practice: "for each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it." So while a sorcerer can gain new spells in the middle of a dungeon level, a wizard cannot (unless traveling with Leomund's Tiny Laboratory :smallbiggrin:).

2. There is an optional rule in the DMG p288 for spell points; never tried it, it does make it harder to cast higher spells at any rate different than the PHB tables (I only checked sorcerer @ level 15 - 94 spell points = the same # of "slots x levels"). It could add flavor if applied only to sorcerers.

Question: In anyone's experiences, have you ever been at risk of losing your spell book after failing a save, for example, vs. dragon breath or fireball. Nothing in RAW that I can see, just wondering how everyone plays. Similarly, does anyone ever get captured and lose everything? Fall into a river and find 20 pages of the spell book look like tie-dye now? The spell book is the great versatility of the wizard but does not often seem to be a risk. Just curious.

[Vorpalchicken]

Two comments and one question:

1. Wizards do not get 2 spells "for free" each level, as has been implied -- nothing on p114 of the PH says "free," you still have to spend money and time to copy them into your spellbook. It also requires time and practice: "for each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it." So while a sorcerer can gain new spells in the middle of a dungeon level, a wizard cannot (unless traveling with Leomund's Tiny Laboratory :smallbiggrin:).

Nope they are freebies. You only have to pay to copy found spells.


"The spells that you add to your spellbook as you gain levels reflect the arcane research you conduct on your own, as well as intellectual breakthroughs you have had about the nature of the multiverse. You might find other spells during your adventures. You could discover a spell recorded on a scroll in an evil wizard's chest, for example, or in a dusty tome in an ancient library.

Copying a Spell into the Book

When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a level for which you have spell slots and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it."

[HPisBS]

Way to much to respond to, so I'll just pick out some things that stood out to me.


And the spells known issue is very much a big deal. Sorcerer spell acquisition really slows down after level 11 and you will really feel the pinch from then on out. I mean, over the next 9 levels you get FOUR new known spells. So once you get settled with your sub level-5 spells, you will only know one spell per level. Unless you want to devote TWO of your post-level 5 spells known to one spell slot. Or go without an upgrade. It really, really hurts and it's one of the reason why I'm still salty about the nerf to the Divine Soul sorcerer years later.

Finally, the Sorcerer list is missing a couple of spells that really makes the Evoker OMG good as a blaster, especially post-Xanathar's. Not having Find Familiar + Dragon's Breath, Summon Greater Demon/Infernal Calling, Conjure Elemental, Dawn, Contingency, and especially Simulacrum just straight-up sucks for their long-term damage output.

This is why, ever since the original UA Storm Sorc, I've believed each origin should get a few select bonus spells. 4, to be exact. They should all be thematic, come from other classes' lists where possible, and ~ half should be non-damaging (like Gust of Wind for Storm Sorc). Otherwise, you're liable to wind up with sorcerers that barely have any spells tied to their origin.

- I mean, how lame is it that a Storm Sorcerer can't Call Lighting by RAW?!?


I'm just not sure if sorcerers should get them at lvls 1,3,5,7 or 1,6,14,18. If it's the former, then it's too front-loaded, but if it's the latter, then the 4th level spell isn't gained until you've long since outgrown it. Maybe somewhere in between? :shrug:


It has always baffled me that Bards get to discover spells from any spell list...

But Wild Magic Sorcerers, whose very blood is infused with Magic itself, can never cast off of their spell list.

Just... Why? How is that balanced for Bards and not Sorcerers?

To fit with the above, it'd be cool if they got a few bonus spells that change every long rest. Roll a d6 for each to determine which full-caster (or Warlock) spell list it'll come from, then pick which spell you want of that level. (Or roll again for the specific spell.)



Sadly, such things will only ever exist in homebrew and house rules 😞

[JNAProductions]

Not to mention, literally no other class needs to pay to level up. (Yes, Wizards would still get HP, (sub)class features, hit dice, etc. Even higher level slots-but without good spells to fill them with, they'd be trash.) It's ridiculous to charge Wizards a premium and no one else.

If you implemented training rules for EVERYONE, requiring a period of downtime to benefit from a level up, that'd be reasonable, maybe.

[CapnWildefyr]

You only have to pay to copy found spells."

Previous posts could have been read to imply there was zero cost, as in, the spells magically (pun intended) appear in your spell book. I was only trying to remind everyone that you at least have to pay for the ink.

Sorry for the edit--i misread vorpalchicken's response. RAW does NOT say you get them for no cost, only that "you can add" them to your spellbook. You don't have to buy the spells but it doesn't say "free" anywhere. Didn't see that in SA either. Maybe no one plays that way, but still...

[JNAProductions]

That is what I said. Previous posts could have been read to imply there was zero cost, as in, the spells magically (pun intended) appear in your spell book. I was only trying to remind everyone that you at least have to pay for the ink.

No, you said they have to pay for their level up spells.

Which they don't.

[RSP]

That is what I said. Previous posts could have been read to imply there was zero cost, as in, the spells magically (pun intended) appear in your spell book. I was only trying to remind everyone that you at least have to pay for the ink.

No, it’s not what you said. You said “Wizards do not get 2 spells "for free" each level...” And, this is incorrect.

The spells absolutely appear in your spellbook at no cost: “Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free.”

[CapnWildefyr]

No, it’s not what you said. You said “Wizards do not get 2 spells "for free" each level...” And, this is incorrect.

The spells absolutely appear in your spellbook at no cost: “Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free.”

Please cite the page. You know the spells, yes. But technically it does not say you can avoid the cost of writing them down. I was surprised when I re-read that too. I guess it depends on how you interpret "you can add."

Also, again sorry I misread the one post-- i also clarified my earlier response.

[RSP]

Please cite the page. You know the spells, yes. But technically it does not say you can avoid the cost of writing them down. I was surprised when I re-read that too. I guess it depends on how you interpret "you can add."

Also, again sorry I misread the one post-- i also clarified my earlier response.

“Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spell- book (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar).”

From the Wizard section of classes (this is specifically copied from the Basic Rules pg. 33)

[Misterwhisper]

Please cite the page. You know the spells, yes. But technically it does not say you can avoid the cost of writing them down. I was surprised when I re-read that too. I guess it depends on how you interpret "you can add."

Also, again sorry I misread the one post-- i also clarified my earlier response.

How do you somehow interpret can add for free to mean costing multiple gold?

The more interesting thing is, do they have to be spells you have heard or at least seen?

Say I am a wizard who has never even heard of the spell Scorching Ray for some reason, never seen anyone cast it, never seen it in a scroll, or in someone’s spell book, can I add it, or do I have to find the spell first and copying it is free?

[Ertwin]

Question: In anyone's experiences, have you ever been at risk of losing your spell book after failing a save, for example, vs. dragon breath or fireball. Nothing in RAW that I can see, just wondering how everyone plays. Similarly, does anyone ever get captured and lose everything? Fall into a river and find 20 pages of the spell book look like tie-dye now? The spell book is the great versatility of the wizard but does not often seem to be a risk. Just curious.


That's why I tend to gravitate towards sorcerers and monks. I want a character that can hold their own even if they wake up naked in a dungeon.

DMs should definitely put wizard spellbooks in at least as much risk as any other equipment. A disarming attack on a wizard should cause him/her to drop the book etc

Part of the buy-in for a sorcerer is that your power comes from within, and cannot be taken from you.

[Misterwhisper]

That's why I tend to gravitate towards sorcerers and monks. I want a character that can hold their own even if they wake up naked in a dungeon.

DMs should definitely put wizard spellbooks in at least as much risk as any other equipment. A disarming attack on a wizard should cause him/her to drop the book etc

Part of the buy-in for a sorcerer is that your power comes from within, and cannot be taken from you.

Disarming then if the book won’t do anything, they don’t have to have it in hand to cast.

Most dms I have ever seen do not allow for disarming of a spell component pouch because it would be “unfair” but disarming a weapon “makes sense”.

Rule of DND: casters can do anything because magic does it, martials can only do something if it makes sense.

[RSP]

That's why I tend to gravitate towards sorcerers and monks. I want a character that can hold their own even if they wake up naked in a dungeon.

DMs should definitely put wizard spellbooks in at least as much risk as any other equipment. A disarming attack on a wizard should cause him/her to drop the book etc

Part of the buy-in for a sorcerer is that your power comes from within, and cannot be taken from you.

First, why is a Wizard holding their spellbook in hand during combat?

Second, losing your spellbook does not mean the Wizard cannot regain spell slots, or loses their prepared spells. It only means they cannot prepare different spells at the end of a long rest.

[RSP]

How do you somehow interpret can add for free to mean costing multiple gold?

The more interesting thing is, do they have to be spells you have heard or at least seen?

Say I am a wizard who has never even heard of the spell Scorching Ray for some reason, never seen anyone cast it, never seen it in a scroll, or in someone’s spell book, can I add it, or do I have to find the spell first and copying it is free?

RAW it’s any Wizard spell.

It’s similar to a Battlemaster just knowing how to disarm or parry, or whatever maneuver they select, at level 3. Nothing says the BM had to have learned any techniques, seen it done previously, etc.; they just now know it.

[CapnWildefyr]

“Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table. On your adventures, you might find other spells that you can add to your spell- book (see the “Your Spellbook” sidebar).”

From the Wizard section of classes (this is specifically copied from the Basic Rules pg. 33)

Thanks. I dont have my PHB in front of me--i had to head out from home--but I really did not see 'for free' in that section. I reread it several times. But I just checked Dnd beyond, and there it is. Maybe its an errata thing? Might have been added after my PHB was printed? If Im bored maybe I'll look it up . : )

[Zetakya]

Disarming then if the book won’t do anything, they don’t have to have it in hand to cast.

Most dms I have ever seen do not allow for disarming of a spell component pouch because it would be “unfair” but disarming a weapon “makes sense”.

Rule of DND: casters can do anything because magic does it, martials can only do something if it makes sense.

It's actually got easier to argue for disarming Foci since Harry Potter had the title character do it as a major part of his combat technique.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

How do you somehow interpret can add for free to mean costing multiple gold?

The more interesting thing is, do they have to be spells you have heard or at least seen?

Say I am a wizard who has never even heard of the spell Scorching Ray for some reason, never seen anyone cast it, never seen it in a scroll, or in someone’s spell book, can I add it, or do I have to find the spell first and copying it is free?

I 110% believe that the wizard should be a "build a spell" class.

So while your scorching spray may be fire, mine may be acid... Which all this lead me to give the wizard metamagic...

Spellcraft

Beginning at 3rd level, you learn to craft spells of your specialization. You can add one of the following options, called a spellcraft, to a spell you know. You may craft a number of spells each long rest in this way equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). You can not craft spells of a higher level than you can cast.

You make this decision during a long rest. Each spellcraft increases the spell slot needed to cast the spell by 1 level. This does not increase the number of spells you know and you can still cast the spell unmodified.

Careful Spell
When you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell's full force. To do so, you choose a number of those creatures up to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.

Distant Spell
When you cast a spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can double the range of the spell. When you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can make the range of the spell 30 feet.

Empowered Spell
When you roll damage for a spell, you can reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one). You must use the new rolls. The spell only takes up a higher slot if you decide to use the reroll feature.

Extended Spell
When you cast a spell that has a duration of 1 minute or longer, you can double its duration, to a maximum duration of 24 hours.

Subtle Spell
When you cast a spell, you can cast it without any somatic or verbal components.

Note

As a note, this is just first attempt, different metamagics will be added to give more diversity to spells you craft. Elemental Spell would allow you to change the element of a spell, for example. Will add in some +2 spell level metamagics. Also, my groups levels only go to level 10 and they have a couple more low level slots but spell slots only go up to 4th level. So far this has worked rather well. Icould see this applying to a full 1 -20 class.

[JumboWheat01]

It's actually got easier to argue for disarming Foci since Harry Potter had the title character do it as a major part of his combat technique.

Coming from a player, I think that would be an interesting thing to deal with, and would encourage me to have a few non-material spells on hand just in case I lose my focus, or have a component pouch on my belt just in case as well. Like, you should never have a single weapon as a martial character, why should you not have a back-up way of casting spells?

[CapnWildefyr]

Thanks. I dont have my PHB in front of me--i had to head out from home--but I really did not see 'for free' in that section. I reread it several times. But I just checked Dnd beyond, and there it is. Maybe its an errata thing? Might have been added after my PHB was printed? If Im bored maybe I'll look it up . : )

Turns our we are both correct, for what its worth. My PHB does NOT include "for free" and the errata I checked does not add it. But it's in the basic rules. Sigh. (I'd add a photo but I dont know how.) PHB p114 in my edition, first printing Aug 2014. Maybe more recent printings are different.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Turns our we are both correct, for what its worth. My PHB does NOT include "for free" and the errata I checked does not add it. But it's in the basic rules. Sigh. (I'd add a photo but I dont know how.) PHB p114 in my edition, first printing Aug 2014. Maybe more recent printings are different.

Don't feel too bad, there's actually two different printings of the original PHB and they have slight differences.

Most notable is the Dragonborn breath weapon recharging on a short rest or long rest versus recharging on a long rest.

[CapnWildefyr]

Don't feel too bad, there's actually two different printings of the original PHB and they have slight differences.

Most notable is the Dragonborn breath weapon recharging on a short rest or long rest versus recharging on a long rest.

It's also possible that it's different for basic vs PHB, that is, the PHB cost is more 'advanced' or whatever.

The funny thing is, my group almost never cares about this, I was only bringing it up because I saw some people do care about the cost for writing spells down!

[SociopathFriend]

It's also possible that it's different for basic vs PHB, that is, the PHB cost is more 'advanced' or whatever.

The funny thing is, my group almost never cares about this, I was only bringing it up because I saw some people do care about the cost for writing spells down!

I mean... when I play a Wizard I definitely care that I end up spending thousands on learning spells.
If I had to spend the gold to learn the ones every level too it would be... frankly really expensive to be a Wizard.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

If a Wizard fights against an Archer enemy. Well, good lucky but, the Wizard is dead, the Wizard spells are limited to 150ft range, But, Sorcerers can just quicken empowered Insect Plague at 300ft applying difficult terrain and ignore cover and cast Blade Ward and falls prone to apply disadvantage against ranged attacks.. Also, Sorcerer's Insect Plague is a death sentense casted against a spellcaster like a wizard.

Or Quicken Polymorph into a Giant Ape and use its action to smash a melee enemy and still absorb damage on his turn.

On mage duels, your always win counterspell battles with subtle metamagic. The winner is obvious.

Sneaky Sorcerer with Prodigy feat (Stealth) and Subtle Metamagic is just insane, casting freely spells without reveal himself.

Defeat an Enemy/NPC with Subtle Mind Spike with IMPUNITY is golden

Solving problems, Subtle Dominate Person and Ritual caster feat can solve everything. "Will make the Wizard jealous"

About blasting the Dragon Sorcerer level 7 can do more than 120 avg damage that ignores resistence and cover in a single turn. The Wizard can't compete with it.

The Sorcerer can TWIN Polymorph and Twin Simulacrum via Wish that dominates low levels and high levels!!
Can you look how powerful is turning the frontliners into 2 Giant Ape or T-rex at level 7, Is IT INSANE? Or creating a Simulacrum of yourself and a Mother Matron Drow (legendary humanoid monster)?

Quicken a spell + Blade ward turns more tanky than a fighter and can save your day multiples time, the sorcerer has proficiency on concentration and still halves the damage. It's GREAT. Quicken a spell + Minor Illusion can save your ass multiple times. The wizard lacks.


Well, lets be honest.

First off, you're being biased.

Most Sorcerers are not taking distant spell. Spell Sniper is a more likely pick up, for either.

If the Sorcerer is being built to be a blaster, so is the wizard. The wizard would be an evocation subclass and the wizard is going to win pure damage, or at the very least not lose too badly. The wizard will also have a more diverse array of spells.

The Sorcerer is an good blaster, but the Sorcerer does not excel at blasting in the way it excels at other aspects at being a caster.

The Sorcerer is the best buffer in the game. Sorcerers have access to Cleric spells and can quicken or twin them.

Sorcerers excel at social situations where magic can be used. Subtle spell is down right broken and I love that people don't get that. So many people think an encounter has to be a battle to be won... There is more than one way to pluck an Owlbear.

Sorcerers are good at debuffs, though I would say divination wizard is equal or better. People sleep on careful Hypnotic Pattern though, and they're crazy for that.

Polymorph has a little problem with mental scores that I don't like dealing with. Polymorph is a great debuff tho! I rather Twin Enlarge than turn my allies into potential party killers (or a waste of a spell).

I vastly prefer Sorcerers to Wizards, but i don't think you're being fair.

[Misterwhisper]

First off, you're being biased.

Most Sorcerers are not taking distant spell. Spell Sniper is a more likely pick up, for either.

If the Sorcerer is being built to be a blaster, so is the wizard. The wizard would be an evocation subclass and the wizard is going to win pure damage, or at the very least not lose too badly. The wizard will also have a more diverse array of spells.

The Sorcerer is an good blaster, but the Sorcerer does not excel at blasting in the way it excels at other aspects at being a caster.

The Sorcerer is the best buffer in the game. Sorcerers have access to Cleric spells and can quicken or twin them.

Sorcerers excel at social situations where magic can be used. Subtle spell is down right broken and I love that people don't get that. So many people think an encounter has to be a battle to be won... There is more than one way to pluck an Owlbear.

Sorcerers are good at debuffs, though I would say divination wizard is equal or better. People sleep on careful Hypnotic Pattern though, and they're crazy for that.

Polymorph has a little problem with mental scores that I don't like dealing with. Polymorph is a great debuff tho! I rather Twin Enlarge than turn my allies into potential party killers (or a waste of a spell).

I vastly prefer Sorcerers to Wizards, but i don't think you're being fair.

It is just Drako again, ignore him, he will be banned again in about an hour.

[SociopathFriend]

It is just Drako again, ignore him, he will be banned again in about an hour.

Perks of reporting someone on-sight, they tend to be dealt with rather quickly.



Most Sorcerers are not taking distant spell. Spell Sniper is a more likely pick up, for either.

This however I will definitely say is the untarnished truth or as close as you can get to something like that. There have been very, very few scenarios in my several years of 5e playing where an enemy has been more than 100-150 feet away at max. Because DMs generally don't make scenarios where primarily-melee martials are pointless and don't get to play and that's where extending the range of your spells would really shine.

In fact the ONLY example that comes to mind where enemies/allies were hundreds of feet apart was a prolonged chase in the Underdark where both the enemy and myself were covering in excess of 100+ feet per turn due to their mounts and the buffs I'd cast on my own. On that occasion people were absolutely trying to fight at 300+ foot ranges but otherwise... I don't think it's ever happened to me.
Even in that scenario I don't think the DM actually expected me to be able to move that fast after them in the first place so it likely wasn't the intended result anyways.

[LudicSavant]

So did some quick calculations to try to give at least a rough idea of how things shake out.

Seems like 5-10 damage per target on an empower isn't a bad deal, even if we're looking at high levels. For comparison, a bog standard level 20 quicken Fire Bolt vs AC 19 is only adding about ~8 damage per sorcery point, ~9 if you're a dragon sorc (and requires your bonus action at a level where there's a lot of nice things to do with your bonus action whether you have Quicken or not). And that'll be spread over 20 Sorcery points, plus whatever you get from the capstone or spell conversions.

If we're instead talking about Hex/EB the comparison gets a little more complicated, because there's opportunity cost to account for. First of all, Hex/Quicken has a spinup time that limits its ability to burst enemies down (since you gotta use your bonus action on the first round of attacking a new target), and it eats your Concentration (and I think it's frequently not worth it at high levels on that alone). And we're evidently multiclassing for that combo, maybe something like War 3/Sor17, so we're down a 5th, 6th, and 7th level slot, 3 base SP, the level 18+ sorc features, and a feat. And we're up some invocations and warlock features and level 1 slots, most of which go to augmenting Eldritch Blast.

Even if we lowball the value of those spell slots to their lossy SP conversion value, they're worth 21 SP, so already you basically want to be doing double the value per sorcery point with your quickens if you're going for resource efficiency, and that's before we consider the Concentration and spinup time and such (I'll leave it to you guys to eyeball that, I'm only here for a few minutes). And sure enough, your value per sorcery point is... a little over double the basic Fire Bolt, at ~19 damage to a single target per sorcery point. But Empower'll generally do that much against multiple targets, has a good bell curve, doesn't have a spinup time or bonus action or Concentration requirement, and can stack with other metamagics (including quicken).

[Luccan]

On the subject of targeting spellbooks and foci:

People don't do it because somewhere, at some point, a DM (probably several, but probably fewer than you'd think) abused it. Burning thousands of gold worth of spells away, with no recourse for a poor magic-user. Players refused to play with such DMs (reasonably), DMs became wary of accidentally going too far (understandably), now spellcasters are largely ignored by anything short of other spellcasters (regretably).

Meanwhile, it's remained ok to trip-up the warriors. Honestly, the only way to even it out is to get DMs that are just willing to target the squishy's stuff without singling them out all the time.

[LudicSavant]

On the subject of targeting spellbooks and foci:

People don't do it because somewhere, at some point, a DM (probably several, but probably fewer than you'd think) abused it. Burning thousands of gold worth of spells away, with no recourse for a poor magic-user. Players refused to play with such DMs (reasonably), DMs became wary of accidentally going too far (understandably), now spellcasters are largely ignored by anything short of other spellcasters (regretably).

Meanwhile, it's remained ok to trip-up the warriors. Honestly, the only way to even it out is to get DMs that are just willing to target the squishy's stuff without singling them out all the time.

I always found it kinda funny that some people on the internet think it's an unimaginable disaster if a DM *gasp* targets a Wizard's spellbook sometimes! For shame, an enemy trying to sabotage you! Why would the people who want you dead do such a thing? (Probably the same reason I occasionally steal NPCs' spellbooks when I'm a PC).

All you gotta do if you're in the sort of game where a DM isn't afraid to go after your spellbook is make backups (they're hugely discounted from the first time you learn a spell), take some precautionary measures to make sure not every ol' pickpocket can get your book, and even if somehow you lose your book and your backup you still get to keep your prepped spells to tide you over (which seems merciful to an oldster like me).

Getting upset about having your focus targeted is even weirder to me. I always keep at least one extra. They're dirt cheap and don't take an action to draw.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I always found it kinda funny that some people on the internet think it's an unimaginable disaster if a DM *gasp* targets a Wizard's spellbook sometimes! For shame, an enemy trying to sabotage you! Why would the people who want you dead do such a thing? (Probably the same reason I occasionally steal NPCs' spellbooks when I'm a PC).

All you gotta do if you're in the sort of game where a DM isn't afraid to go after your spellbook is make backups (they're hugely discounted from the first time you learn a spell), take some precautionary measures to make sure not every ol' pickpocket can get your book, and even if somehow you lose your book and your backup you still get to keep your prepped spells to tide you over (which seems merciful to an oldster like me).

Getting upset about having your focus targeted is even weirder to me. I always keep at least one extra. They're dirt cheap and don't take an action to draw.

Keen Mind feat is absolutely amazing. I'm not 100% sure you need a spell book if you have that feat.

Take the feat, write down the spells in a new spell book within a month, rinse and repeat?

[Luccan]

I always found it kinda funny that some people on the internet think it's an unimaginable disaster if a DM *gasp* targets a Wizard's spellbook sometimes! For shame, an enemy trying to sabotage you! Why would the people who want you dead do such a thing? (Probably the same reason I occasionally steal NPCs' spellbooks when I'm a PC).

All you gotta do if you're in the sort of game where a DM isn't afraid to go after your spellbook is make backups (they're hugely discounted from the first time you learn a spell), take some precautionary measures to make sure not every ol' pickpocket can get your book, and even if somehow you lose your book and your backup you still get to keep your prepped spells to tide you over (which seems merciful to an oldster like me).

Getting upset about having your focus targeted is even weirder to me. I always keep at least one extra. They're dirt cheap and don't take an action to draw.

I think the focus just gets spill over from the spellbook. A number of things we bemoan seem to come from the days before people realized Gygax was a lot more fair than he pretended to be in the books and articles (sometimes). DMs today have been humbled, but I think it swung a little far in the other direction, particularly in 3rd edition. Things seem to be middling out, especially with the OSR becoming a thing.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I think the focus just gets spill over from the spellbook. A number of things we bemoan seem to come from the days before people realized Gygax was a lot more fair than he pretended to be in the books and articles (sometimes). DMs today have been humbled, but I think it swung a little far in the other direction, particularly in 3rd edition. Things seem to be middling out, especially with the OSR becoming a thing.

3e was a lot of people's "first" and it got real, real, bad.

4e is where I saw things mellow out because all the classes had their own ways to contribute and the DMs didn't have to target things like a foci to mess with the casters. There was a lot of HP and the DM could mess with the casters just like they did the martials.

[Nagog]

First off, you're being biased.

Most Sorcerers are not taking distant spell. Spell Sniper is a more likely pick up, for either.

If the Sorcerer is being built to be a blaster, so is the wizard. The wizard would be an evocation subclass and the wizard is going to win pure damage, or at the very least not lose too badly. The wizard will also have a more diverse array of spells.

The Sorcerer is an good blaster, but the Sorcerer does not excel at blasting in the way it excels at other aspects at being a caster.

The Sorcerer is the best buffer in the game. Sorcerers have access to Cleric spells and can quicken or twin them.

Sorcerers excel at social situations where magic can be used. Subtle spell is down right broken and I love that people don't get that. So many people think an encounter has to be a battle to be won... There is more than one way to pluck an Owlbear.

Sorcerers are good at debuffs, though I would say divination wizard is equal or better. People sleep on careful Hypnotic Pattern though, and they're crazy for that.

Polymorph has a little problem with mental scores that I don't like dealing with. Polymorph is a great debuff tho! I rather Twin Enlarge than turn my allies into potential party killers (or a waste of a spell).

I vastly prefer Sorcerers to Wizards, but i don't think you're being fair.

I agree with your assessment here. If we are focusing only on the base class, Wizards and Sorcerers are fairly even in the immediacy of use, and Wizards pulling far ahead in the long game, between learning new spells from books and scrolls and being able to swap entire spell lists daily. But then if you add in subclasses, Wizards win by a long shot. Sorcerer subclasses typically have one, maybe two shining features, with the rest being mediocre (examples include an extra hitpoint per level and unarmored AC vs. telepathy). Wizard subclasses, on the other hand, grant a great deal, as much of the meat and potatoes of how you play your wizard is contained there. Everything from insane AC calculations (bladesinger) to constant, concentration-free buffs (Transmutation) to permanent, powerful minions (Necromancy) to the awesome might that is a Diviner's Divine Portent. Wizards take the cake on this one, no questions asked.


If we're instead talking about Hex/EB the comparison gets a little more complicated, because there's opportunity cost to account for. First of all, Hex/Quicken has a spinup time that limits its ability to burst enemies down (since you gotta use your bonus action on the first round of attacking a new target), and it eats your Concentration (and I think it's frequently not worth it at high levels on that alone). And we're evidently multiclassing for that combo, maybe something like War 3/Sor17, so we're down a 5th, 6th, and 7th level slot, 3 base SP, the level 18+ sorc features, and a feat. And we're up some invocations and warlock features and level 1 slots, most of which go to augmenting Eldritch Blast.


Actually, by level 17 you'll have access to every level of spell at least once! While you won't have as many slots for some of them, you will have at least 1 and therefore the ability to (in the case of the sorcerer) know one spell.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I agree with your assessment here. If we are focusing only on the base class, Wizards and Sorcerers are fairly even in the immediacy of use, and Wizards pulling far ahead in the long game, between learning new spells from books and scrolls and being able to swap entire spell lists daily. But then if you add in subclasses, Wizards win by a long shot. Sorcerer subclasses typically have one, maybe two shining features, with the rest being mediocre (examples include an extra hitpoint per level and unarmored AC vs. telepathy). Wizard subclasses, on the other hand, grant a great deal, as much of the meat and potatoes of how you play your wizard is contained there. Everything from insane AC calculations (bladesinger) to constant, concentration-free buffs (Transmutation) to permanent, powerful minions (Necromancy) to the awesome might that is a Diviner's Divine Portent. Wizards take the cake on this one, no questions asked.



Actually, by level 17 you'll have access to every level of spell at least once! While you won't have as many slots for some of them, you will have at least 1 and therefore the ability to (in the case of the sorcerer) know one spell.

The problem with wizards in 5e is the same as 3e, they have too many options. Abyss, look at how many subclasses the wizard gets in the PHB compared to say the Sorcerer! Absolutely disgraceful.

[LudicSavant]

Actually, by level 17 you'll have access to every level of spell at least once! While you won't have as many slots for some of them, you will have at least 1 and therefore the ability to (in the case of the sorcerer) know one spell.

Yes. Which is exactly what the post you quoted just told you. So what's with this "actually" business?

Specifically, your highest level slot will be 9, but you'll have one less 5th, 6th, and 7th level slot compared to straightclass Sorc.

[Nagog]

The problem with wizards in 5e is the same as 3e, they have too many options. Abyss, look at how many subclasses the wizard gets in the PHB compared to say the Sorcerer! Absolutely disgraceful.
As a counterpoint, I'd say that Wizards have just enough options, and Sorcerers do not have nearly enough. For contrast, including UA, Wizards have 15 subclasses, 10 of which are official, while Sorcerers have 12 total, with 6 being official. As in the base classes, WotC needs to give more options to the Sorcerer.
As far as the PHB goes, I understand the imbalance. The subclasses given to wizards there correspond to the various schools of magic. Imagine if they included only Evocation and Abjuration. It would limit the Wizard (for those who don't own other books) to being either a blaster or a protector, nothing else. As I stated, the subclass for a Wizard heavily defines their playstyle, while the Sorcerer doesn't have such specialization. Wizards also have more subclasses available in the PHB than any other class listed there, and to my knowledge, they have more subclasses than any other class (the only possible contender would be Cleric).


Yes. Which is exactly what the post you quoted just told you. So what's with this "actually" business?

Apologies, I somehow missed the word "Slot" in the post I quoted.

[LudicSavant]

Apologies, I somehow missed the word "Slot" in the post I quoted.
NP. Thanks for the apology :smallsmile:

[SpawnOfMorbo]

As a counterpoint, I'd say that Wizards have just enough options, and Sorcerers do not have nearly enough. For contrast, including UA, Wizards have 15 subclasses, 10 of which are official, while Sorcerers have 12 total, with 6 being official. As in the base classes, WotC needs to give more options to the Sorcerer.
As far as the PHB goes, I understand the imbalance. The subclasses given to wizards there correspond to the various schools of magic. Imagine if they included only Evocation and Abjuration. It would limit the Wizard (for those who don't own other books) to being either a blaster or a protector, nothing else. As I stated, the subclass for a Wizard heavily defines their playstyle, while the Sorcerer doesn't have such specialization. Wizards also have more subclasses available in the PHB than any other class listed there, and to my knowledge, they have more subclasses than any other class (the only possible contender would be Cleric).



Apologies, I somehow missed the word "Slot" in the post I quoted.

Wizards have vastly more options than anyone else, the only one close is the cleric and the warlock (warlock less so). Between spells and subclasses, the wizard is just absurd.

Wizards need a restriction, a base fighter can only know ONE fighting style but a wizard can prepare from every spell school? Seriously?

This would also fix my biggest problem with the wizard, they don't have any class features! Like, dang, give them something other than spell casting and getting spells back! I'm working on a wizard that works under my groups that has Ritual Instructor (reduce ritual times with multiple people helping), Acedemic Advisor (give advantage on Int checks), and Tedious Lecturer (exhaust a target by talking their ear off). A wizard should be a nerd, give them nerd features.

[SociopathFriend]

Wizards have vastly more options than anyone else, the only one close is the cleric and the warlock (warlock less so). Between spells and subclasses, the wizard is just absurd.

Wizards need a restriction, a base fighter can only know ONE fighting style but a wizard can prepare from every spell school? Seriously?

This would also fix my biggest problem with the wizard, they don't have any class features! Like, dang, give them something other than spell casting and getting spells back! I'm working on a wizard that works under my groups that has Ritual Instructor (reduce ritual times with multiple people helping), Acedemic Advisor (give advantage on Int checks), and Tedious Lecturer (exhaust a target by talking their ear off). A wizard should be a nerd, give them nerd features.

Wizards have too much and need restrictions... so the solution is to get the Subclasses more features? The base Wizard being stacked enough is the REASON the subclasses mostly just buff the spells of your given school at least in the PHB.

A Wizard only knows ONE spellcasting style just like a Fighter only knows ONE Fighting Style- nothing whatsoever prevents a Fighter from taking up a bow, a spear, a net, a lance, etc to have their own variety.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Wizards have too much and need restrictions... so the solution is to get the Subclasses more features? The base Wizard being stacked enough is the REASON the subclasses mostly just buff the spells of your given school at least in the PHB.

A Wizard only knows ONE spellcasting style just like a Fighter only knows ONE Fighting Style- nothing whatsoever prevents a Fighter from taking up a bow, a spear, a net, a lance, etc to have their own variety.

The wizard knows how to cast Abjuration, Conjuration, Evocation, etc... Those are the "fighting styles" of the wizard. Something that comes from the base class.

Then the wizard knows multiple options within each of their styles (schools) whereas the fighter gets 1 option within their styles. The wizard can even change their styles, which school their spells come from, and the fighter is stuck with the same fighting style. The Wizard is even allowed to use Int for all their styles while the fighter needs to choose Str or Dex.

Then subclasses come to play to expand what they chose from above.

The additional class features are paired with less schools to choose from and less slots. So far it has been a hit as it gives the wizard an identity. You still are a caster, a damn good one, but you have actual class features to back up the idea that you are a wizard (as opposed to a Sorcerer or Warlock who are casting pretty much the same spells).

There should be 4 arcane classes. Wizard (evocation + 2 schools), Witch (enchantment + 2 schools), Sorcerer (any three schools), Summoner (Conjuration + 2 schools). I would make the warlock a subclass of the arcane classes and the rogue as it fits the themes and stereotypes of the classes well.

Less generic options and more flavorful class features. The wizard would still have a ton of generic options in the spells, but would actually be a real class.


But anyways...

One of the things that makes the Sorcerer better than the Wizard is that the Sorcerer actually has class features that shows "yo, I'm a Sorcerer" and they are not only full of flavor but mechanically awesome.

[Zetakya]

The lack of flexibility in Fighter fighting styles is a problem, but not one for this thread.

Sorcerer subclasses run into the problem quite hard that they are almost all actually a race thing, and race is selected separately elsewhere. The "Double Dragon" race/subclass combo being the most obvious example.

Most of them are also very restrictive. Bonus to an element damage type sounds both good and balanced, but not all damage types are created equally; between different spell availability and the variation in frequency of resists to different elements they vary in comparison to each other wildly at different levels.

In addition, if a subclass is being balanced around a damage bonus to one element, it follows that it's weak when using all the others...

[Farkon]

Sorcerers just need a buff to make them feel more about power and have more resources available in exchange for versatility, but that didn't really happen.

I remember in Baldur's gate 2, a sorc at level 9 could cast 6 fireballs.

5e I can't even cast more then 3 at the same level without cannibalizing my points.

There's not even a maximized metamagic yet. Sorcs got gimped hard this edition

[HiveStriker]

Most people will tell you there's no reason to play a Sorcerer over a Wizard. Metamagic in 5e is very restrictive and Sorcerers can only know a few handful of spells, while Wizards get more spells and rituals.
Then I'd say "most people" don't have a clue about what they are talking about. :)


The thing that bogs sorcerers down is that they can be built around one cool trick (often involving Twinning a key concentration spell/high level buff, or Subtle shenanigans), but fifteen spells and four metamagics known leaves little flexibility outside of that. They may be best served sacrificing their lower level spells known on level up and cannibalizing those slots for metamagic or higher level slots, but there are a lot of very nice low level spells you don't want to find yourself without.

Which is the crux of the matter. Having one cool trick you perform over and over can get boring quickly, and being able to nova hard means you run out of resources and wind up plinking with cantrips if the day lasts more than fifteen minutes. Both of which sound like they'll wear thin as you play the character over the long haul.
On the bolded part: I have a different experience actually: I like eating a 5th or so slot so I can recharge my 1st level slots for Shield on perilous days, or Enhance Ability / Invisibility on exploring days.
Of course, I'd prefer multiclassing into Warlock usually to be a god outside combat, but not every DM is okay with that. ^^

On the italic part: I disagree. If you pick ONLY focused utility spells, or ONLY damage spells, or ONLY single-target spells, yeah, you'll feel like a one-trick pony.
BUT...
- some "one-trick ponies" are still versatile enough to be great: Enhance Ability and Polymorph especially are spells you'll always find some use for, about whatever non-combat situation you may face, and sometimes combat situations too.
- You can diversify by grabbing one or two popularly acclaimed spells to cater one specific use-case..
For example, Sorcerer has access to many great single-target control spells, but it would be a bad idea to try and cover every attribute and use-case, unless you want it to be your single focus. However, just learning Phantasmal Force (targeting INT) and/or Banishment (targeting CHA) usually works enough. Especially if you pair it with a class feature. My main gripe with it though it that's it's clearly metagaming (it could technically NOT be, but I never encountered a player telling me all downtime is spent studying creatures to find their weaknesses).
You could instead decide you pick just one or two critically-acclaimed control spells, that target multiple creatures, so that you're sure when you use a slot on it you'll have some success (Slow, Hypnotic Pattern, Fear).

It's really all about how much versatile and optimized you want to be for your party.

And can we all take a moment and recognize that it’s awesome that Sorcerors have built in proficiency with Com saves which makes them better at maintaining concentration than Wizards.

That seems to fly under the radar a lot.

Sure, Wizards can take resilient: Con or Warcaster, but then Sorcerors can grab ritual caster and suddenly both classes start looking similar but different. And that’s ok.

Very true.

Wizards are about always having the right tool for the job. Sorcerers are about having a hammer, and everything looking like a nail.

And wizards are definitely better for damage (if that's what you want to go for), combos, and buffs.
That's by far the biggest misconception born from distorsion between theory and practice, in my (and those of my friends around) experience.

Any "optimized" Wizard will necessarily learn at least the following: Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Find Familiar, Mirror Image, Blur, Misty Step, Invisibility, Rope Trick (often), Phantasmal Force (often), Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Fly (usually), Polymorph, Banishment...
And possibly Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Unseen Servant, Magic Mouth, Phantom Steed Glyph of Warding, Dimension Door.

List made from everything I ever read on this forum about "best spells" (in general) and direct experience of players around, so I'm pretty confident at least the first part you'd find in 95% of "optimization" builds.
That means at the minimum, for a level 9 Wizard, >50% of all "leveling learning" spells "locked", and at least 5 of them "lock prepared" (Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Mirror Image, Misty Step).

When in the world are those Wizards gonna decide they should invest time and gold into more niche spells ??
You know, ones such as Comprehend Languages (I personally think it's a gold standard but most people overlook it), Floating Disk (same), Charm Person (sometimes useful at low levels, useless after), Sleep (same), Jump (same), Continual Flame (great in some niche), Earthbind (great against flyers, but higher spells will provide other means later), Knock (great against magic locks, for mundane you'll usually have someone with proficiency), Skywrite (cool way to message large groups of people or set up mass manipulation), Clairvoyance (great when you get it, although in many situations an Invisible familiar would fare enough, later you have better ways), Nondetection (every Wizard should get it imo, yet many don't care about), etc...

Yeah, Wizard has potentially access to a great lot of spells.

But the number of people I know, who would prefer learning niche spells because it fits their rp instead of grabbing the same old 40 spells, I can count on a single hand.
Because a large part of this available spellist includes somewhere close to a hundred of spells that are marginally better than others similar in a few circumstances, or provided "dumbed down" effects compared to higher level ones you'll probably get eventually. Plus a dozen or so spells that nearly nobody wants to learn because generally viewed as not worth the effort anyways (like Witch Bolt).

So the true versatility of Wizard essentially relies on DM giving him a) chances to learn extra spells and b) spells being either at least minimally useful to the party or some Wizard was interested into in the first place. Which means in practice, Wizards DON'T actually have "the best tool for the situation (or even just one for that matter)". And if even, by chance, they happened to get a scroll of that right spell, it would still take them one or several days to write it down then prepare it.

The only caster that can truely be deemed versatile without external intervention is Druid: all kind of spells, only 8 hour required to completely change everything ready to cast. That's factual. :)


The advantage is that, unlike magic items, which can be rare as balls depending on campaign, you can be sure every wizard has a spellbook, so you can often negotiate with NPCs with either gold or favors to get the chance to copy stuff from their spellbook.

And in parties I've been in, people wll straight up put up money from their share towards the negotiating fund, too. It's in everyone's interest to keep your wizard well-oiled and in the loaded position.
Very true. :)
It can also bring interesting "side-quests" (negotiation is an option, stealing is another XD), or even some crafty&bold tactics in combat (like buffing a Rogue to try and help him grab enemy Wizard's spellbook. Not often viable, I did try it a few times with friends. We only managed it once, but even on a fail we created some chaos we took advantage of, Wizard being surprised he was suddenly threatened in close range XD).


Twinning a buff to get around limits on high level spell slots and/or concentration is nice. Subtle Spell is nice. Nobody is arguing against either of those points.

If the sorcerer's niche is supposed to be metamagic, though, why does he only get two for basically half his career? Metamagics are already limited by needing to power them with sorcery points, tightly limiting the available picks feels unnecessary. It's another place where options feel tighter than they need to be.
That I find quite pertinent. :)
My guess is that they were afraid that Sorcerers would feel too similar from one another if they gave access to too many metamagics, or because they were afraid of multiclassing power?
Although the first point could be easily coped by pushing further the concept of metamagic (like they did a bit with the UA, but really there are many ideas to explore)...
And the second point can be easily circumvented with level gating.

From my plays, I'd be glad if they made just those two changes...
- Allow to swap metamagic for another when leveling up.
- Give one more metamagic at around level 6-7 (if needed push the lvl 10 metamagic to 12 to even out progression).

OR, allow to swap one metamagic every long rest at the cost of reducing your total number of Sorcery points for the day by a small amount (like 2).

[Chronos]

Farkon, that's a spellcaster nerf, not a sorcerer nerf. In earlier editions, all spellcasters got more spells per day than they do now.

As for a lost spellbook, yet another option is to be a Conjurer. Now you don't even need to make a copy in advance: If it gets lost or stolen, just conjure up a copy. It's certainly an object you've seen before, after all. Minor Conjuration gets way underestimated as a class feature.

Spell foci, yeah, just carry a few spares of those. Or hang it as a pendant from a choker that's not easily removed. Or both. My rogue has only once been able to completely shut down a caster by stealing a focus, and that was against a very inexperienced caster, where the expectation was for us to find a way to nonviolently end the encounter. There's no reason it shouldn't be just as hard to shut down a PC that way.

[Chronic]

There is no way I would as a gm allow you to create a spellbook that include the spells. You aren't smart enough to remember the spells from day to day, you gonna tell me you can remember every single detail on dozens of spells just like that? And that Is just an rp reasons, for balance I would simply say no to you.

[JackPhoenix]

There is no way I would as a gm allow you to create a spellbook that include the spells. You aren't smart enough to remember the spells from day to day, you gonna tell me you can remember every single detail on dozens of spells just like that? And that Is just an rp reasons, for balance I would simply say no to you.

That "rp reason" doesn't matter, because the conjurer doesn't need to remember anything, just to see the object in question either. Even if you rule that the character has to remember stuff, there's an easy solution: Keen Mind feat and browse through the whole thing once a month. Considering Conjuration is hardly the most powerful subclass, "balance" argument also doesn't hold water.

[Zetakya]

One thing that it occurs to me (having gone and refreshed my memory of the class features) that is in the wrong class is the Wizards Spell Mastery feature.

Having a signature spell ties to their theme would be a much better fit for a Sorcerer, and would get them back towards their status from older editions of having a narrower selection of spells but more ability to use them freely.

[HiveStriker]

They should really have made Sorcerer work entirely on Spell Points, no defined Spell Slots at all, just "spend an amount of SP equal to the level of the spell you are casting, plus the cost of any Metamagics you are using"
Well, you can already as long as you get your DM to use the Spell Point variant and fuse Sorcery points in it.
The big problem of that is balance.

And that is a BIG problem.
Consider this.
At level 10, a Wizard can cast 4 Shield. Provided a short rest, he could "recharge" all his 1st level slots for 4 more Shield.
Alternatively, he could throw 3 Fireball, then 1 more (5-3 = 2, not enough "recovery slot").

Same level Sorcerer with PHB rules (let's consider he uses the basic allocation of SP for that, and will hereafter convert one high level slot if needed for actual use of metamagic).
4 Shield + (2*5) = 9 Shield.
3 Fireball or (5*2) = 5 Fireball.

That's balanced, because Sorcerer can get a little more power than Wizard by consuming resources.

Now, take the same Sorcerer, with spell points variants.
Without even taking into account a "fusion" of Sorcery points, at level 10, Sorcerer has 4*2+3*3+3*5+3*6+2*7 = (I don't have DMG at the moment, so converting using the conversion rules since it's identical rates) = 54 points.
This means that technically, he could cast 27 Shield in the day... Or Healing Words if he's Divine Soul.

In days where you fight only one big encounter, you won't feel any difference since you'll want to blow powerful spells anyways.
However, whenever you'll have usual days with several encounters, you'll have a huge boon as a "variant spell points caster" (Sorcerer or otherwise): you have 0 pressure whatsoever into casting low level spells, because whatever you choose it's "automagically" an optimal resource consumption.

Honestly, the only way that works is if you make all casters like that (but then back to square 0) or if you actually follow a different rate than DMG to make a more linear progression BUT also give some recovery on short rest (which means tiptoeing on Warcock instead).


I'm sorry to say it bluntly but you are wrong. Damage is everything in fights in this edition. It's not random, its entire purpose is to reduce randomness and you roll only when your previous rolls are low, second it allows you to roll MORE (the more you roll, the closer you are to average) , and the lower the rolls the higher the chance you will roll better. It's cheap, this is literally the cheapest option available. So you can spam it.
On top of that it scales really well since it scales on the number of dice rolled, so it's useful during the entire leveling. The "you may lose damage" is incredibly rare if you follow a simple guideline. And the more dice you throw for a spell, the less likely it will happens.
All of this makes empower the most reliable and cheap option in fights. I use it constantly, and not only does it increase my damages mathematically, it prevents the frustration coming from bad rolls at crucial moments.
I'm sorry to say it bluntly but you are wrong.
Damage is anything else than everything in fights.
First of all because, mind you, not every party (that respects selves at least when they pretend being Neutral or Good) is going murder hobo on everyone grinning at them with hostility.

Some groups will fight to the death, certainly, but others can simply break out and run or surrender when taking a massive enough blow to their forces or morale. You may also want to avoid any bloodshed for roleplaying reasons.

Second, because the spell that can do the most can do the least.
Hypnotic Pattern for example: it's rare you'll affect everyone in the area, but you can use it in tandem with other tactics (Silence + Grapple, Stinking Cloud, or Phantasmal Force / Banishment on lone enemies having saved) to completely disable enemy group without harming them (tying and gagging them up does not count as inflicting damage neither "shaking out of stupor").
If you do want to kill though? Have everyone else Ready to focus their abilities on whomever escaped the effect, then finish off the ones in trance.

Another example: you're facing a group of bandits, negociations seem too hard to manage for even an Expert because as is you're seemingly outnumbered. A Wall may give you enough time to organize or break up group in two smaller dispatchable ones, or simply set up a Fireball / Sickening Radiance and hope it will be enough to even the power balance...
BUT you could also try a Mass Suggestion to imply any circumstance that may give them reason to negociate or surrender (you could pay them more, you have friends close enough, or whatever else fits the circumstance), knowing that this attempt, unless you can conceal it one way or another, may be seen hostile enough to breakout fight.
Or you could use a Dominate Person (especially as a Subtle Sorcerer) on the boss and, on success, make him agree on some aggreement or make him outright lie to his men about your effective threat so they turn around.

I mean, it's hard to get "in the void" examples, but you do have many spells that offer alternative ways (often better) than just "harm, kill and loot" way.

[patchyman]

The problem with wizards in 5e is the same as 3e, they have too many options. Abyss, look at how many subclasses the wizard gets in the PHB compared to say the Sorcerer! Absolutely disgraceful.

I was going to post this exact same thing. Wizards have such a broad diverse spell list that you could make a necromancer even without any subclasses. Meanwhile, the PHB had two subclasses for sorcerer each of which was extremely narrow in scope.

While I can imagine that there were lots of players interested in playing descendants of dragons, wild sorcerers were extremely niche which makes including them as the second sorcerer subclass pretty surprising.

Even now, I find that the published sorcerer subclasses to be overly restricted compared to the universe of possible origins.

[RedMage125]

I exclusively played wizards over sorcs in 3e.

Now in 5e, I have played sorcs and had a great time. I think the mechanics are more balanced, and the flavor and subclasses are great.*

I wouldn't mind seeing sorc subclasses get a few bonus spells known, however...


Excluding shirtless, ab-baring "Sorcerer Kings". They're weak, frail pieces of trash.

[KorvinStarmast]

That "rp reason" doesn't matter, because the conjurer doesn't need to remember anything, just to see the object in question either. Even if you rule that the character has to remember stuff, there's an easy solution: Keen Mind feat and browse through the whole thing once a month. Considering Conjuration is hardly the most powerful subclass, "balance" argument also doesn't hold water. I am with Jack on this, particularly in re an attempt at a 'balance' argument.

I had a post a while back that had my idea on improving sorcerers:
One suggestion was to add another meta magic at level 7.
More flexibility. More options for shaping magic.
The other was to redo the spell progression for spells known:
Starting at level 12, just make the spells known keep adding one per level up to 21 at 20th.

And the last is: add particular spells known for all sub class/origin. One per level for spell levels 1-5 (similar to cleric domain stuff)

Beyond that, the class fits into a decent niche. I just wish that the campaign where my shadow sorcerer was playing had not died due to RL.

[Farkon]

Farkon, that's a spellcaster nerf, not a sorcerer nerf. In earlier editions, all spellcasters got more spells per day than they do now.

As for a lost spellbook, yet another option is to be a Conjurer. Now you don't even need to make a copy in advance: If it gets lost or stolen, just conjure up a copy. It's certainly an object you've seen before, after all. Minor Conjuration gets way underestimated as a class feature.

Spell foci, yeah, just carry a few spares of those. Or hang it as a pendant from a choker that's not easily removed. Or both. My rogue has only once been able to completely shut down a caster by stealing a focus, and that was against a very inexperienced caster, where the expectation was for us to find a way to nonviolently end the encounter. There's no reason it shouldn't be just as hard to shut down a PC that way.

That may be, but in BG2 sorc could cast fireball 6 times while base wizards/mage could only cast fireball 3 times if they specifically prepared 3 fireballs at that level.
The feeling that sorcs could cast fireball so many times was amazing despite the fact that you sacrificed versatility for this.

But now, wizards don't have that weakness and sorcs got comped on their spell castings along with wizards.
Unless you want to twin buff, subtle spell, or multi-class and spam eldritch blast, there's no point in playing a far less versatile spellcaster.

"Magic is a part of every sorcerer, suffusing body, mind, and spirit with a latent power that waits to be tapped."
We're still waiting.

[Aimeryan]

They should really have made Sorcerer work entirely on Spell Points, no defined Spell Slots at all, just "spend an amount of SP equal to the level of the spell you are casting, plus the cost of any Metamagics you are using"

Agreed - the defined spell slots for Sorcerer just feels so anti-thematic. The spell point variant in the DMG works fine, however, it should have been default for Sorcerer.

[Farkon]

Agreed - the defined spell slots for Sorcerer just feels so anti-thematic. The spell point variant in the DMG works fine, however, it should have been default for Sorcerer.

Yes, I wish it was a default like it is with DDO, It's such a pain to explain to every DM I play with that it makes things easier and lets me cast spells like I want to.

[RSP]

Well, you can already as long as you get your DM to use the Spell Point variant and fuse Sorcery points in it.
The big problem of that is balance.

And that is a BIG problem.


I don’t agree. A Sorc who uses all their Spell Points/Sorc Points on Shield is in no way OP. Casting Cantrips every round, while adding +5 to AC when hit isn’t horribly effective, in terms of character play. Very defensive, sure, but probably still doesn’t have the defensive capabilities of a Bladesinger; which will be +Int mod to AC, and still have up to 8 Shields (Arcane Recovery) and still has all their 2+ spell slots.

I’m not sure what your worry is on this.

[patchyman]

In days where you fight only one big encounter, you won't feel any difference since you'll want to blow powerful spells anyways.
However, whenever you'll have usual days with several encounters, you'll have a huge boon as a "variant spell points caster" (Sorcerer or otherwise): you have 0 pressure whatsoever into casting low level spells, because whatever you choose it's "automagically" an optimal resource consumption.

Honestly, the only way that works is if you make all casters like that (but then back to square 0) or if you actually follow a different rate than DMG to make a more linear progression BUT also give some recovery on short rest (which means tiptoeing on Warcock instead).

There is a pretty easy and elegant way to balance this and keep the Sorcerer versatility flavour.

Sorcerers use SP (including the top up for Sorcery points). Every morning, while the wizards prepare their spells, sorcerers craft their spell slots per the SP rules. They must use all SP to craft slots, though their can “reserve” a number of SP up to a maximum of their level for meta-magic or for on the fly conversions during the day.

The Sorcerer gets the versatility to go long term (lots of low level sots) or short term (lots of high level slots) or anything in between. The Wizards larger number of spells known, spells prepared and ritual casting mean that he remains the master of versatility in different spells cast, but the Sorcerer can better customize his daily loadout.

[Galithar]

There is a pretty easy and elegant way to balance this and keep the Sorcerer versatility flavour.

Sorcerers use SP (including the top up for Sorcery points). Every morning, while the wizards prepare their spells, sorcerers craft their spell slots per the SP rules. They must use all SP to craft slots, though their can “reserve” a number of SP up to a maximum of their level for meta-magic or for on the fly conversions during the day.

The Sorcerer gets the versatility to go long term (lots of low level sots) or short term (lots of high level slots) or anything in between. The Wizards larger number of spells known, spells prepared and ritual casting mean that he remains the master of versatility in different spells cast, but the Sorcerer can better customize his daily loadout.

+1 internets for you sir/madam.

It's been awhile since I've seen an idea for modifying the Sorcerer that I actually liked. It means a little more bookkeeping, but that's not something that really bothers me. I just might have to try this out and see how me and my players feel about it.

[AHF]

That may be, but in BG2 sorc could cast fireball 6 times while base wizards/mage could only cast fireball 3 times if they specifically prepared 3 fireballs at that level.
The feeling that sorcs could cast fireball so many times was amazing despite the fact that you sacrificed versatility for this.

But now, wizards don't have that weakness and sorcs got comped on their spell castings along with wizards.
Unless you want to twin buff, subtle spell, or multi-class and spam eldritch blast, there's no point in playing a far less versatile spellcaster.

"Magic is a part of every sorcerer, suffusing body, mind, and spirit with a latent power that waits to be tapped."
We're still waiting.

Exactly. In BG2, the sorcerer had a more limited number of spells known but could:

* Learn all the same spells as a wizard;
* Cast significantly more spells at every level (ie more spells slots)
* And the wizard had to prepare the individual spells for each slot meaning if they wanted a bunch of fireballs they could not cast other 3rd levels spells while the sorcerer could always choose between his limited spells known like blasting 6 fireballs or ripping off a dispel magic/remove magic or flip damage types to skull trap or party safe flame arrow.

In 5E:
* Sorcerers have a notably worse spell list;
* Have fewer spells slots compared to arcane recovery unless they want to basically dump all metamagic to spend their SP converting into more slots;
* Have no question way worse versatility in spell selection since the wizard can now spontaneously cast while knowing way, way more spells and preparing significantly more spells while having some great selections that aren’t even on the sorcerer list.

Add in ritual casting, better subclasses, etc. and it is a dramatic nerf when you look at the pros and cons of wizard vs sorcerer across those two editions.

[RSP]

There is a pretty easy and elegant way to balance this and keep the Sorcerer versatility flavour.

Sorcerers use SP (including the top up for Sorcery points). Every morning, while the wizards prepare their spells, sorcerers craft their spell slots per the SP rules. They must use all SP to craft slots, though their can “reserve” a number of SP up to a maximum of their level for meta-magic or for on the fly conversions during the day.

The Sorcerer gets the versatility to go long term (lots of low level sots) or short term (lots of high level slots) or anything in between. The Wizards larger number of spells known, spells prepared and ritual casting mean that he remains the master of versatility in different spells cast, but the Sorcerer can better customize his daily loadout.

My opinion is Spell Points grants versatility to the Sorc that’s needed to offset the low spells known and shorter list of options.

Essentially it’s spell slot versatility for the Sorc vs spells known/prepared versatility for the Wizard.

[Man_Over_Game]

+1 internets for you sir/madam.

It's been awhile since I've seen an idea for modifying the Sorcerer that I actually liked. It means a little more bookkeeping, but that's not something that really bothers me. I just might have to try this out and see how me and my players feel about it.

I think it'd need something modified to account for Warlock spell slots, and cutting down on "Coffee-lock" builds.

I think making it so that you must use your Sorcery Points to cast a spell as you convert them (that is, converting them into a spell slot is the same as casting the spell) would cut down on any potential abuse, since it'd just mean that Sor-Locks could only restore up to their Sorcerer Level in potential slots.

[Galithar]

I think it'd need something modified to account for Warlock spell slots, and cutting down on "Coffee-lock" builds.

I think making it so that you must use your Sorcery Points to cast a spell as you convert them (that is, converting them into a spell slot is the same as casting the spell) would cut down on any potential abuse, since it'd just mean that Sor-Locks could only restore up to their Sorcerer Level in potential slots.

Actually this method completely negates the possibility of coffee-locking it needing to worry about the multiclass at all. The versatility comes from making your spell slots at the beginning of the day, and at least how I was reading it (and would implement it) your reserve of points for metamagic can be made into spell slots, but your spell slots cannot be turned back into points anymore.

Maybe that was just a modification I made in my head though haha

[Man_Over_Game]

Actually this method completely negates the possibility of coffee-locking it needing to worry about the multiclass at all. The versatility comes from making your spell slots at the beginning of the day, and at least how I was reading it (and would implement it) your reserve of points for metamagic can be made into spell slots, but your spell slots cannot be turned back into points anymore.

Maybe that was just a modification I made in my head though haha

That creates the reverse problem: Sorcerers are now their own separate type of spellcaster, like Warlock.

That could be fine, except at least the Warlock uses the same overall system of spell-slot casting. A Warlock gains benefit from multiclassing since they can use those lower level slots to fuel their Warlock spells (which would otherwise need to be upcasted, and a main caster gets benefit from Warlock since they can fuel those low level slots constantly throughout the day (for Shield and other stuff).

However, a Sorcerer+Caster multiclass gets no synergy, other than being able to convert spell slots into sorcery points (up to your Sorcerer level).

There'd be virtually no reason to dip into Sorcerer, beyond the level 1 features.

[HPisBS]

I am with Jack on this, particularly in re an attempt at a 'balance' argument.

I had a post a while back that had my idea on improving sorcerers:
One suggestion was to add another meta magic at level 7.
More flexibility. More options for shaping magic.
The other was to redo the spell progression for spells known:
Starting at level 12, just make the spells known keep adding one per level up to 21 at 20th.

And the last is: add particular spells known for all sub class/origin. One per level for spell levels 1-5 (similar to cleric domain stuff)

Beyond that, the class fits into a decent niche. I just wish that the campaign where my shadow sorcerer was playing had not died due to RL.

I wholeheartedly agree. Sorcerers need bonus thematic spells since they know so few in total. They toyed with the idea as far back as the Storm Sorc UA, but then gutted it. Then, they toyed with it again for the Favored Soul UA, before backing away again.

Ditto for more metamagics. Especially now that we have new options via UA Variants.
- I'd also like to see something like:
Maximize Spell - Increase the effective spell level by 1 / sorcery point spent, to a maximum of your highest level spell slot.


A thread on bonus thematic spells is incoming.

Edit:
There'd be virtually no reason to dip into Sorcerer, beyond the level 1 features.

I'd call that a feature, rather than a bug. lol

[JumboWheat01]

- I'd also like to see something like:
Maximize Spell - Increase the effective spell level by 1 / sorcery point spent, to a maximum of level 9.


So upcasting a spell without burning the spell slot... an interesting idea. (Max of) Eight spell points may be costly, but chucking out up to three Ninth level spells in one rest period could be really powerful.

[JackPhoenix]

Exactly. In BG2, the sorcerer had a more limited number of spells known but could:

* Learn all the same spells as a wizard;
* Cast significantly more spells at every level (ie more spells slots)
* And the wizard had to prepare the individual spells for each slot meaning if they wanted a bunch of fireballs they could not cast other 3rd levels spells while the sorcerer could always choose between his limited spells known like blasting 6 fireballs or ripping off a dispel magic/remove magic or flip damage types to skull trap or party safe flame arrow.

In 5E:
* Sorcerers have a notably worse spell list;
* Have fewer spells slots compared to arcane recovery unless they want to basically dump all metamagic to spend their SP converting into more slots;
* Have no question way worse versatility in spell selection since the wizard can now spontaneously cast while knowing way, way more spells and preparing significantly more spells while having some great selections that aren’t even on the sorcerer list.

Add in ritual casting, better subclasses, etc. and it is a dramatic nerf when you look at the pros and cons of wizard vs sorcerer across those two editions.

BG2 used 2e rules. There was no sorcerer in 2e. What you're using for your comparison is basically a homebrew.

[patchyman]

As a counterpoint, I'd say that Wizards have just enough options, and Sorcerers do not have nearly enough. For contrast, including UA, Wizards have 15 subclasses, 10 of which are official, while Sorcerers have 12 total, with 6 being official. As in the base classes, WotC needs to give more options to the Sorcerer.

Unless I’m forgetting one, it is 5 official: Draconic, Wild, Storm, Divine Soul and Shadow. So Wizards get twice the subclasses.

[patchyman]

Actually this method completely negates the possibility of coffee-locking it needing to worry about the multiclass at all. The versatility comes from making your spell slots at the beginning of the day, and at least how I was reading it (and would implement it) your reserve of points for metamagic can be made into spell slots, but your spell slots cannot be turned back into points anymore.

Maybe that was just a modification I made in my head though haha

I didn’t exclude the possibility of converting spells slots back at the inefficient rate of 1 spell level = 1 SP, but that is an elegant way of discouraging multi-classing.

My group doesn’t multiclass very much, so I would probably keep the inefficient transfer during the day so Sorcerers could use more meta-magic during the day.

[HPisBS]

So upcasting a spell without burning the spell slot... an interesting idea. (Max of) Eight spell points may be costly, but chucking out up to three Ninth level spells in one rest period could be really powerful.

Oof, that highlights a flaw in the way I wrote it: there's no language to prevent treating, say, a Fireball as a 9th level spell as early as level 6. (Though, it would be just once per day....)

Meh, I gotta go edit that lol

(Also, it still requires a spell slot, just not as high of one.)

[Man_Over_Game]

Edit:

I'd call that a feature, rather than a bug. lol

Despite the issues that it'd fix, the goal should always be to add more content.

[Theaitetos]

That means at the minimum, for a level 9 Wizard, >50% of all "leveling learning" spells "locked", and at least 5 of them "lock prepared" (Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Mirror Image, Misty Step).

When in the world are those Wizards gonna decide they should invest time and gold into more niche spells ??
You know, ones such as Comprehend Languages (I personally think it's a gold standard but most people overlook it), Floating Disk (same), Charm Person (sometimes useful at low levels, useless after), Sleep (same), Jump (same), Continual Flame (great in some niche), Earthbind (great against flyers, but higher spells will provide other means later), Knock (great against magic locks, for mundane you'll usually have someone with proficiency), Skywrite (cool way to message large groups of people or set up mass manipulation), Clairvoyance (great when you get it, although in many situations an Invisible familiar would fare enough, later you have better ways), Nondetection (every Wizard should get it imo, yet many don't care about), etc...

Yeah, Wizard has potentially access to a great lot of spells. But the number of people I know, who would prefer learning niche spells because it fits their rp instead of grabbing the same old 40 spells, I can count on a single hand.

A lot of the spells you describe are rituals; a wizard doesn't even have to prepare them and he can cast them anyway (Find Familiar, Floating Disk, Comprehend Languages, Skywrite, ...).

[JumboWheat01]

A lot of the spells you describe are rituals; a wizard doesn't even have to prepare them and he can cast them anyway (Find Familiar, Floating Disk, Comprehend Languages, Skywrite, ...).

Which really helps a Wizard's staying-power throughout the day. They can cast utility rituals without expending any spell slots or having to have one of their prepared spells taken up by it. Only a Tome Warlock can match that without feats.

[AHF]

BG2 used 2e rules. There was no sorcerer in 2e. What you're using for your comparison is basically a homebrew.

My point is that this particular widely played Homebrew was closer to a better balance as between Wizards and Sorcerers than the current 5E balance which tips wayyyy too far towards Wizard over Sorcerer.

FWIW, the BE2 Sorcerer used the 3E framework (similar to their implementation of 3E Monk and Barbarian added classes). Under the 3E structure you could make legit arguments for either Wizard or Sorcerer being better and there was a much better balance than you see in 5E where you have to really work hard to come up with a reason not to go Wizard.

[RedMage125]

That may have been the fastest I have ever seen a troll banished.

On topic:
BG2 came out after 3.0 did, and they kind of jammed the monk, sorc, and barb in there sideways, with very little consideration, into 2e mechanics. It's not official of any edition, and not a good example of anything, really. Except how NOT to merge material between editions.

[HiveStriker]

There's an explanation of it in the link here: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47423/can-a-sorcerer-protect-their-friend-from-web-by-using-careful-spell.

As for ragging on JC, it's worth noting that people were reading the rule this way literally years before JC's tweet about it.
Nope.
A majority of them was reading it as "no restriction given so auto save on every save".

Besides, Crawford's ruling, in addition to being woefully restrictive for little reason, is plain stupid in restricting in "only your own turn" since turns are but an abstraction made to make simultaneity manageable. Worst case it should last a round.

As for Web case, per that inept ruling it would not work usually, but nothing prevents either caster or friends to Ready an action to coordinate, then everyone is on the same turn.

[Nagog]

Wizards have vastly more options than anyone else, the only one close is the cleric and the warlock (warlock less so). Between spells and subclasses, the wizard is just absurd.

Wizards need a restriction, a base fighter can only know ONE fighting style but a wizard can prepare from every spell school? Seriously?

This would also fix my biggest problem with the wizard, they don't have any class features! Like, dang, give them something other than spell casting and getting spells back! I'm working on a wizard that works under my groups that has Ritual Instructor (reduce ritual times with multiple people helping), Acedemic Advisor (give advantage on Int checks), and Tedious Lecturer (exhaust a target by talking their ear off). A wizard should be a nerd, give them nerd features.

I'd say that as far as full casters go, the Wizard is a good standard. Considering 2 other full casters (Cleric and Druid) prepare spells from their full list (reducing the locked-in feeling of choosing spells at level up) and they get tons more class features, larger hit dice, armor and weapon proficiency, and the like, Wizards could be construed as underpowered in comparison. What keeps them competitive against those is their spellcasting methods and spell lists. Only compared to the Sorcerer is the Wizard overpowered, which begs to the problem that Sorcerers need a buff or restructure, not that Wizards should be nerfed.



I wouldn't mind seeing sorc subclasses get a few bonus spells known, however...


This could easily fix the Sorcerer, as long as the spells are similar to Cleric subclasses and their spells known, in that they are given to you for free (not sure if that's what you meant or if you meant like Warlock subclasses, adding them to the list of spells available). This would not only broaden their otherwise limited spell's known, but would also give all of the subclasses more draw overall.


Unless I’m forgetting one, it is 5 official: Draconic, Wild, Storm, Divine Soul and Shadow. So Wizards get twice the subclasses.

Is Pyromancy not official? I'm using the Wikidot as my reference, as they're typically pretty accurate, but that one is iffy as it's annotated to be specifically built for MtG. I don't like the MtG content that's been hastily scrawled together for 5e, so I don't know if it's in a book or not.

[JumboWheat01]

Is Pyromancy not official? I'm using the Wikidot as my reference, as they're typically pretty accurate, but that one is iffy as it's annotated to be specifically built for MtG. I don't like the MtG content that's been hastily scrawled together for 5e, so I don't know if it's in a book or not.

Admittedly I don't have all the books, but no, Pyromancy isn't an official thing. Storm is the only elementally themed sorcerer at the moment, more's the pity. There were some fun looking ones for Fire, Water and Earth in an older UA, but they never saw the light of day. They have a fair number of other UA options, to be sure, like the Giant Soul that's a personal favorite, and the psionic-flavored one, but if we're working on official options, no, only the five listed beforehand.

A lot of the UA options also come with bonus spells in some way, shape or form, that almost always get trimmed before any of those made it into official printing. So it's like they recognize that the Sorcerer's spell known is a bit restrictive, but never do anything about it officially. Even Xanathar rangers have more spells on hand than sorcerers now!

[Nagog]

Admittedly I don't have all the books, but no, Pyromancy isn't an official thing. Storm is the only elementally themed sorcerer at the moment, more's the pity. There were some fun looking ones for Fire, Water and Earth in an older UA, but they never saw the light of day. They have a fair number of other UA options, to be sure, like the Giant Soul that's a personal favorite, and the psionic-flavored one, but if we're working on official options, no, only the five listed beforehand.

A lot of the UA options also come with bonus spells in some way, shape or form, that almost always get trimmed before any of those made it into official printing. So it's like they recognize that the Sorcerer's spell known is a bit restrictive, but never do anything about it officially. Even Xanathar rangers have more spells on hand than sorcerers now!

Ouch, that's quite a bite! XD
Pyromancy seems like a decent subclass, looking through it casually. The subtext for it implies it works for any element you'd like to focus on. That could raise the flavor appeal for Sorcerers, if not mechanically. Perhaps many of the subclasses haven't jumped from UA to Official because WoTC thinks they fail to address the overall shortcomings of the class?

[HPisBS]

I wouldn't mind seeing sorc subclasses get a few bonus spells known, however...


This could easily fix the Sorcerer, as long as the spells are similar to Cleric subclasses and their spells known, in that they are given to you for free.... This would not only broaden their otherwise limited spell's known, but would also give all of the subclasses more draw overall.

Check out the Thematic Sorcerer Subclass Spells (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608257-Thematic-Sorcerer-Subclass-Spells) thread, then. Maybe let me know whether you think the Shadow's and Divine Soul's one RAW bonus spell apiece should count against the total bonuses they get or not.

- Along with any other thoughts you may have :smallsmile:

––––

I wonder how much of wizards' widely-recognized advantage has to do with their:
- spell list
- total spells available at any given time (probably not quite as much, since Clerics and Land Druids get even more, though wizards start to bridge that gap at level 18)
- rituals
- more innate and variable power differences, mainly from subclasses (portent, arcane ward, etc vs wild surge, natural mage armor, etc)

Did I miss anything?

Sorcerers get to use metamagic a few times / day, and natural Con save proficiency, but it just doesn't feel like all that much in comparison.

[paladinn]

A few thoughts on "fixing" the sorcerer (because the wizard Is just plain better, especially with spell recovery and non-Vancian casting):

1. In D&D 3.x, sorcerers were proficient with simple weapons. Give that back! If sorcs are not learning magic from books, they have time for some minor weapon training. Sorcs are never going to make melee combat their favorite activity, but it's something.

2. Have sorcs cast using spell points instead of slots. It will give them more of their comparative flexibility back.

3. Sorcs should have a combined spell point pool of their spell levels and their metamagic points. They draw from that common pool for all their magic, spells and metamagic.

4. Give sorcs the Elemental Spell metamagic option. Instant, really cool flexibility.

5. Sorcs should get extra magic-pool-points equal to their Cha bonuses.

Now that's a sorcerer I'd like to play!

OP or ?

[Zetakya]

2. Have sorcs cast using spell points instead of slots. It will give them more of their comparative flexibility back.

3. Sorcs should have a combined spell point pool of their spell levels and their metamagic points. They draw from that common pool for all their magic, spells and metamagic.


I suggested such a couple of pages back. The counter argument (& it is a fair point) is that this would give Sorcerers the ability to binge on 9th level spell casting and do nothing else except maybe Cantrips.

In the same way that Warlock's higher spellcasting is limited by Mystic Arcanum, you need to have a power limiter to stop that from happening.

[MirrorDarkly]

I suggested such a couple of pages back. The counter argument (& it is a fair point) is that this would give Sorcerers the ability to binge on 9th level spell casting and do nothing else except maybe Cantrips.

In the same way that Warlock's higher spellcasting is limited by Mystic Arcanum, you need to have a power limiter to stop that from happening.

I don't have my DMG on me but don't the spell point variant rules already restrict you to making 1 spell slot per day past 5th (?) level slots?

[Galithar]

I don't have my DMG on me but don't the spell point variant rules already restrict you to making 1 spell slot per day past 5th (?) level slots?

Yes it does.



Spells of 6th level and higher are particularly taxing to cast. You can use spell points to create one slot of each level of 6th or higher. You can't create another slot of the same level until you finish a long rest.


This actually slightly reduces the power of extremely high level full casters who can eventually cast multiple 6th and 7th level spells. EDIT: for clarity I am talking about standard rules full casters getting an extra 6ty and 7th level slot by level 20.

[paladinn]

I suggested such a couple of pages back. The counter argument (& it is a fair point) is that this would give Sorcerers the ability to binge on 9th level spell casting and do nothing else except maybe Cantrips.

In the same way that Warlock's higher spellcasting is limited by Mystic Arcanum, you need to have a power limiter to stop that from happening.

I think it becomes an exercise in research management, which isn't a bad thing. Even outside of the limits on high-level spells, if a player wants to blow their pool on a few high/er level spells, let them. Experience is a great teacher.

[Zetakya]

Yes it does.



This actually slightly reduces the power of extremely high level full casters who can eventually cast multiple 6th and 7th level spells.

But you're proposing casting everything from SP, unless I misunderstand you.

[Galithar]

But you're proposing casting everything from SP, unless I misunderstand you.

Yes. Everything from spell points. The variant rule (which I quoted from page 288 of the DMG) only allows 1 spell of level 6+ per long rest. Under the standard spell slot rules a level 20 full caster gets 2 level 6&7 slots per long rest.

The variant rule still considers it to be "creating spell slots" so that it lines up with all rules regarding casting (casting from a higher level slot etc.) Its just that you "create" the spell slot as part of casting the spell instead of in advance.

[Zetakya]

Ahh, this is where reading SRD websites while on my phone has its limits...

[Galithar]

Ahh, this is where reading SRD websites while on my phone has its limits...

This is why I have PDFs of the books on my phone! Lol

[Kane0]

A few thoughts on "fixing" the sorcerer (because the wizard Is just plain better, especially with spell recovery and non-Vancian casting):

1. In D&D 3.x, sorcerers were proficient with simple weapons. Give that back! If sorcs are not learning magic from books, they have time for some minor weapon training. Sorcs are never going to make melee combat their favorite activity, but it's something.

2. Have sorcs cast using spell points instead of slots. It will give them more of their comparative flexibility back.

3. Sorcs should have a combined spell point pool of their spell levels and their metamagic points. They draw from that common pool for all their magic, spells and metamagic.

4. Give sorcs the Elemental Spell metamagic option. Instant, really cool flexibility.

5. Sorcs should get extra magic-pool-points equal to their Cha bonuses.

Now that's a sorcerer I'd like to play!

OP or ?

Have you been reading over my sorc? Cause thats basically what I do.

[HiveStriker]

A lot of the spells you describe are rituals; a wizard doesn't even have to prepare them and he can cast them anyway (Find Familiar, Floating Disk, Comprehend Languages, Skywrite, ...).
"A lot"? Really? Reminder of my list:

Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Find Familiar, Mirror Image, Blur, Misty Step, Invisibility, Rope Trick (often), Phantasmal Force (often), Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Fly (usually), Polymorph, Banishment...
And possibly Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Unseen Servant, Magic Mouth, Phantom Steed, Glyph of Warding, Dimension Door.

Of those spells, only 4 are rituals. And all those spells are staples in most Wizard characters I saw, except Magic Mouth strangely (even though this spell technically offers more "power" than most other rituals) and Unseen Servant (often dismissed by people as "just dispensable utility"), which I put here because I personally take it most of the time. Only Find Familiar and Leomund's Tiny Hut I'll see on 99% Wizards.

And that is precisely the crux of the problem: most niche spells, even those that could be cast as rituals, are rarely learned as Wizard unless they could be learned "externally".

Maybe you should not read that fast if it leads to missing the whole point. :)

[paladinn]

Have you been reading over my sorc? Cause thats basically what I do.

Nope, came up with it all on my own. Great minds.. lol

We shouldn't be surprised.. We did some good work "fixing" the ranger a while back :smallbiggrin:

[Amechra]

Honestly, the Wizard's spell list is part of the reason I'm a bit unhappy with them. My class fantasy for Wizards involves having a spell list full of niche effects that mostly-but-don't-quite cover common adventuring scenarios, so you have to do some clever juggling to really use them. As far as I'm concerned, Wizard spells should do one thing - they don't learn Polymorph, they learn Turn into a Frog. Running into a new Wizard should be an opportunity to swap spells and learn from a different magical tradition.

But that isn't how D&D's spellcasting evolved.

[patchyman]

I wonder how much of wizards' widely-recognized advantage has to do with their:
- spell list, how much is their
- total spells available at any given time (probably not quite as much, since Clerics and Land Druids get even more, though wizards start to bridge that gap at level 18)
- rituals
- more innate and variable power differences, mainly from subclasses (portent, arcane ward, etc vs wild surge, natural mage armor, etc)

Did I miss anything?


Arcane Recovery, which together with rituals means that Wizards can outlast all other spellcasters in spells cast per day.

[Kane0]

Nope, came up with it all on my own. Great minds.. lol

We shouldn't be surprised.. We did some good work "fixing" the ranger a while back :smallbiggrin:

The man speaks truth!

[Theaitetos]

"A lot"? Really? Reminder of my list:

Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Find Familiar, Mirror Image, Blur, Misty Step, Invisibility, Rope Trick (often), Phantasmal Force (often), Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Fly (usually), Polymorph, Banishment...
And possibly Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Unseen Servant, Magic Mouth, Phantom Steed, Glyph of Warding, Dimension Door.

Of those spells, only 4 are rituals.

And what about that other part of your list, that you conveniently forgot I was referring to?



... such as Comprehend Languages (I personally think it's a gold standard but most people overlook it), Floating Disk (same), Charm Person (sometimes useful at low levels, useless after), Sleep (same), Jump (same), Continual Flame (great in some niche), Earthbind (great against flyers, but higher spells will provide other means later), Knock (great against magic locks, for mundane you'll usually have someone with proficiency), Skywrite (cool way to message large groups of people or set up mass manipulation) ...

?


And all those spells are staples in most Wizard characters I saw, except Magic Mouth strangely (even though this spell technically offers more "power" than most other rituals) and Unseen Servant (often dismissed by people as "just dispensable utility"), which I put here because I personally take it most of the time. Only Find Familiar and Leomund's Tiny Hut I'll see on 99% Wizards.

So we're up to 4 "staple spells", that wizards get to learn as rituals already without bothering their number of prepared spells. Then we add your 3 other "very useful" rituals in there, that wizards get to cast for free as well, and we end with 7 great spells that wizards get to cast without preparing them, which is 50% of the entirety of spells, that sorcerers get to know.


Maybe you should not read that fast if it leads to missing the whole point. :)

Maybe you can follow your own advice, as the thread title is "On Sorcerers and Wizards", not "Wizards get too few good rituals for free"?

[HPisBS]

...
Check out the Thematic Sorcerer Subclass Spells (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608257-Thematic-Sorcerer-Subclass-Spells) thread, then.
. . .
I wonder how much of wizards' widely-recognized advantage has to do with their:
- spell list
- total spells available at any given time (probably not quite as much, since Clerics and Land Druids get even more, though wizards start to bridge that gap at level 18)
- rituals
- more innate and variable power differences, mainly from subclasses (portent, arcane ward, etc vs wild surge, natural mage armor, etc)
. . .




Arcane Recovery, which together with rituals means that Wizards can outlast all other spellcasters in spells cast per day.

I discounted that since it's comparable to Flexible Casting (and Land Druid's Natural Recovery).

Granted, doing so would cost you your metamagic, which tends to be the better option, but still.

[patchyman]

I discounted that since it's comparable to Flexible Casting (and Land Druid's Natural Recovery).

Granted, doing so would cost you your metamagic, which tends to be the better option, but still.

I guess that depends whether we are comparing Wizards to Sorcerers specifically, or to other prepared casters.

[JNAProductions]

In response to absolutely no one, should we account for racial features and synergies with them? Obviously subclass is part of it, but since racial features are available to everyone, should they be ignored?

[Man_Over_Game]

In response to absolutely no one, should we account for racial features and synergies with them? Obviously subclass is part of it, but since racial features are available to everyone, should they be ignored?

I wouldn't bother. Most of the racial benefits are either unique and rarely synergize with anything (Half-orc's undying feature), or they improve a non-combat element. Nobody really cares how powerful non-combat elements are.

Telepathic halflings being Moon druids? Not a problem.

Variant Human getting Elven Accuracy? That's a problem.


In another perspective, Wood Elves taking stealth feats seems cool, not unbalancing. Few people would see an issue with that.

[LudicSavant]

In response to absolutely no one, should we account for racial features and synergies with them? Obviously subclass is part of it, but since racial features are available to everyone, should they be ignored?

Racial features are available to everyone, but benefit/synergy from racial features is not the same for everyone, so they don't necessarily "cancel out."

So for practical optimization, it should be something that's at least on your radar.

[JNAProductions]

Racial features are available to everyone, but benefit/synergy from racial features is not the same for everyone, so they don't necessarily "cancel out."

So for practical optimization, it should be something that's at least on your radar.

Yeah. That’s how I view it.

But, it’s not fair to compare, say, a class, subclass, AND racial feature to just class features.

[JumboWheat01]

If you're going for optimization to make something work so amazingly well, then yes, race totally matters. But if it only works with that one race and not even the more optimized but not perfect races like that one, it may be problematic.

Like, I don't expect a half-orc sorcerer to do as well even as even a half-elf just on stats alone. Being able to hit higher levels of Charisma earlier allows more room for feats which can help make or break a build even more. Now something with better racial features would throw the balance out altogether.

Even if I would rather play the half-orc for fun and flavor. But I willingly admit I'm not much of an optimizer at all.

[LudicSavant]

Yeah. That’s how I view it.

But, it’s not fair to compare, say, a class, subclass, AND racial feature to just class features.

Indeed.


Nobody really cares how powerful non-combat elements are.

Speak for yourself.


Most of the racial benefits are either unique and rarely synergize with anything (Half-orc's undying feature), or they improve a non-combat element.

I don't agree with that. There are plenty of racial features with noteworthy combat synergies.

[Chronos]

It's not very often that a racial feature (other than the obvious, ability scores) provides a buff to one particular class (significantly more so than to other classes). The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Half-Orc Champions. What racial features particularly benefit sorcerers?

[LudicSavant]

It's not very often that a racial feature (other than the obvious, ability scores) provides a buff to one particular class (significantly more so than to other classes). The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Half-Orc Champions.

Part of the reason you're thinking of just Champions with Half-Orcs is because of their ability scores. Their features would be synergistic with quite a few other things if not for that.

For example, in games where players are allowed to just put their racial stats wherever they want, you'll start seeing Half-Orcs with things like Dex or Cha-based critfishers, Overchannel Evokers, retribution tanks (e.g. low hp/ac characters who bait people into attacking them then do like 100 retribution damage), and more.

Anyways, there are lots of examples of racial synergies out there. For example, despite having the right stats for it, Goblins aren't that great with Rogues. They're better with classes that don't have super-great bonus actions. Hobgoblins are stuffed with Wizard synergies. Scourge Aasimar are better for those who don't mind self-damage (and therefore triggering Concentration checks on themselves). Svirfneblin are generally remembered for their association with Abjurers. And so on and so forth.

[Theaitetos]

What racial features particularly benefit sorcerers?

Not any in particular, afaik.
Usually racial features either provide sorcerers with some additional spells to lift the Spells Known burden (Drow, Triton, ...), give a skill that works with Draconic Sorcerer's damage bonus (Summer Eladrin & Fire, Genasi & Fire/Acid, Yuan-Ti & Poison, ...), or they provide cover for a weakness (Aarakocra's flight for evasion, Kalashtar's WIS save advantage, ...).
Changelings can benefit from the Wings provided by 14th-level Dragon & Divine sorcerers, as they can now also emulate winged creatures (celestials, demons, beasts, small dragons, ...).

[LudicSavant]

give a skill that works with Draconic Sorcerer's damage bonus (Summer Eladrin & Fire

If you're talking about the one in MToF, the Draconic Sorcerer's damage bonus doesn't actually benefit the Summer Eladrin ability, since it's not a spell. However...


Usually racial features either provide sorcerers with some additional spells to lift the Spells Known burden (Drow, Triton, ...)

In addition to having the right stats, the usual stuff that makes elves good, and some extra Cha-based spells, Drow also have access to Drow High Magic which arguably lets you switch out for more precious Sorcerer spells known (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/138947/as-a-sorcerer-can-you-trade-out-the-spells-granted-by-the-drow-high-magic-feat). And of course they get access to Elven Accuracy, a half-feat that can give you +1 Dex or Cha, and is particularly synergistic for Devil's Sight Sorlocks or Shadow Sorcerers.

[Zetakya]

It's not very often that a racial feature (other than the obvious, ability scores) provides a buff to one particular class (significantly more so than to other classes). The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Half-Orc Champions. What racial features particularly benefit sorcerers?

Anything with Dark vision, obviously.

Mountain Dwarf Armour training is excellent for any class without native armour proficiency, including Sorcerer. They also get weapon proficiencies to compensate for the loss of the simple weapon proficiencies that Sorcerer had in previous editions, and it can be a nasty surprise when the Dwarf in Half-Plate with a Warhammer or Battle-Axe suddenly turns around and hits you with Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade.

At the risk of summoning a banned idiot, flight is useful in many ways, both for range control and defence (it's not the "I win button" some people would like it to be, because Dungeons, but it's definitely useful) and as an out of combat utility feature.

As others have said, any race with bonus spells, especially ones keyed to Charisma as a casting stat. Sorcerers should really be able to use racial spells as Sorcerer Spells without them counting as a Spell Known...

[Luccan]

Anything with Dark vision, obviously.

Mountain Dwarf Armour training is excellent for any class without native armour proficiency, including Sorcerer. They also get weapon proficiencies to compensate for the loss of the simple weapon proficiencies that Sorcerer had in previous editions, and it can be a nasty surprise when the Dwarf in Half-Plate with a Warhammer or Battle-Axe suddenly turns around and hits you with Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade.

At the risk of summoning a banned idiot, flight is useful in many ways, both for range control and defence (it's not the "I win button" some people would like it to be, because Dungeons, but it's definitely useful) and as an out of combat utility feature.

As others have said, any race with bonus spells, especially ones keyed to Charisma as a casting stat. Sorcerers should really be able to use racial spells as Sorcerer Spells without them counting as a Spell Known...

Right, but the person you're quoting asked about abilities that benefit Sorcerer over others. All of these are of use to other casters, either broadly or Charisma casters specifically. Or, in the case of Darkvision and flight, everybody.

5e doesn't really go in for overt specialization with races. Gnomes kind of have it, because of the relative lack of unique Int options in the game, but that's it. For the best, really.

[Evaar]

Right, but the person you're quoting asked about abilities that benefit Sorcerer over others. All of these are of use to other casters, either broadly or Charisma casters specifically. Or, in the case of Darkvision and flight, everybody.

5e doesn't really go in for overt specialization with races. Gnomes kind of have it, because of the relative lack of unique Int options in the game, but that's it. For the best, really.

All of that is accurate, but given the thread title is Sorcerers and Wizards I do think it's reasonable to point out when being Charisma focused has synergy with certain spells and racial effects over being Intelligence focused.

So as noted, a lot of races have spells keyed off Charisma. A more niche but potentially fun option if you have a permissive DM is the Mark of Handling Human, which gets access to Animal Friendship and Speak With Animals (which then rely on Charisma to actually get results), and allows you to use those spells on Monstrosities. You didn't account for my owlbear army! But a Bard can do this just as well or better.

But yeah mostly it's hard to find anything from any race that specifically synergizes with Sorcerer. You can make decent use of the Dragon Fear feat, but Dragonborn isn't great and that feat would be better on a Paladin. You can grab Drow High Magic for some extra spells known.

[Luccan]

All of that is accurate, but given the thread title is Sorcerers and Wizards I do think it's reasonable to point out when being Charisma focused has synergy with certain spells and racial effects over being Intelligence focused.

So as noted, a lot of races have spells keyed off Charisma. A more niche but potentially fun option if you have a permissive DM is the Mark of Handling Human, which gets access to Animal Friendship and Speak With Animals (which then rely on Charisma to actually get results), and allows you to use those spells on Monstrosities. You didn't account for my owlbear army! But a Bard can do this just as well or better.

But yeah mostly it's hard to find anything from any race that specifically synergizes with Sorcerer. You can make decent use of the Dragon Fear feat, but Dragonborn isn't great and that feat would be better on a Paladin. You can grab Drow High Magic for some extra spells known.

Something that is interesting is that the races best suited to being sorcerers, those with some sort of bonus to Charisma, I usually associate with a different class. Dragonborn Paladins, Tiefling Warlocks, Half-Elf Bards, Halfling Rogues, and Drow Clerics/Wizards (admittedly, that made more sense in previous editions). Other Cha+ races I hardly think of at all and when I do I don't generally associate a specific class with them. All of these will make better Sorcerers, at least initially, than other races but I don't think of any of them as the "sorcerer race". The sorcerer race I think of is Kobold, which I entirely blame on both getting draconic origins in 3e.

[JumboWheat01]

I always think bard when I think kobolds, and I blame that entirely on Deekin.

Humans can (quite easily) be a "charisma" boosting race, though I also think of them more in a Paladin role than a Sorcerer role, come to think of it, and that bonus feat can really mix things up. It would be nice starting off with Elemental Adept for your draconic element right out of the gate (if you're not like me and have an insane fascination for green draconics) to really drive home the Striker role. Or various other feats.

[Luccan]

I always think bard when I think kobolds, and I blame that entirely on Deekin.

Humans can (quite easily) be a "charisma" boosting race, though I also think of them more in a Paladin role than a Sorcerer role, come to think of it, and that bonus feat can really mix things up. It would be nice starting off with Elemental Adept for your draconic element right out of the gate (if you're not like me and have an insane fascination for green draconics) to really drive home the Striker role. Or various other feats.

That is the other thing I think of with kobolds. Was Deekin supposed to be annoying? I always found him endearing, but could never shake the feeling I was supposed to be annoyed.

Right, a human with the right feat is probably the closest I get otherwise. But even then, I don't really think of humans that way.

[Kane0]

That is the other thing I think of with kobolds. Was Deekin supposed to be annoying? I always found him endearing, but could never shake the feeling I was supposed to be annoyed.


He was intended to be both really, it just differs a little depending on the audience.

[JumboWheat01]

That is the other thing I think of with kobolds. Was Deekin supposed to be annoying? I always found him endearing, but could never shake the feeling I was supposed to be annoyed.


He was intended to be both really, it just differs a little depending on the audience.

I always loved Deekin myself as well. I just could never click the "Scold Deekin" option.

[RedMage125]

That is the other thing I think of with kobolds. Was Deekin supposed to be annoying? I always found him endearing, but could never shake the feeling I was supposed to be annoyed.


He was intended to be both really, it just differs a little depending on the audience.

Don't know Deekin, but it sounds like CL4P-TP in Borderlands.

My wife finds him endearing. I want to spartan kick him off a cliff.

[Kane0]

Don't know Deekin, but it sounds like CL4P-TP in Borderlands.

My wife finds him endearing. I want to spartan kick him off a cliff.

Same concept, he’s the comedic relief (though Xanos is also pretty funny to me).

[Democratus]

The problem with Wizards vs. Sorcerers (and most spellcasters in 5e) is that there is far too much overlap in the spell lists.

Each class should have its own unique spell list with very few spells shared between classes.


Sorcerers should be the masters of elemental forces, runaway effects, wild magic, and dazzling displays. They are what most villagers fear when imagining a spellcaster.
Wizards should be subtle and clever with magic able to find information lost to time, alter the flow of cause and effect, or create illusions of mind and shadow. They are ritualists, academics, and experimenters.
Clerics should be avatars of hope (or despair); conduits to the forces represented by their god's particular motif - usually tied to a big philosophical concept (light, life, darkness, death, day, night, etc.)
Druids should be tied to the wilds with magic that invokes sea and sky, plant and animal, Spring and Winter, growth and decay. They are the awesome vistas that inspire and the terrifying night we keep at bay with fire.
Bards should have magic that can be used to both delight and terrify. They should be able to speak a clever word to cut an ego to the quick or lift a spirit to poetic heights. They bring joy to the roughest crowds and keep kings humble.


Just one person's opinion, of course. :)

[Garfunion]

The problem with Wizards vs. Sorcerers (and most spellcasters in 5e) is that there is far too much overlap in the spell lists.

Each class should have its own unique spell list with very few spells shared between classes.


Sorcerers should be the masters of elemental forces, runaway effects, wild magic, and dazzling displays. They are what most villagers fear when imagining a spellcaster.
Wizards should be subtle and clever with magic able to find information lost to time, alter the flow of cause and effect, or create illusions of mind and shadow. They are ritualists, academics, and experimenters.
Clerics should be avatars of hope (or despair); conduits to the forces represented by their god's particular motif - usually tied to a big philosophical concept (light, life, darkness, death, day, night, etc.)
Druids should be tied to the wilds with magic that invokes sea and sky, plant and animal, Spring and Winter, growth and decay. They are the awesome vistas that inspire and the terrifying night we keep at bay with fire.
Bards should have magic that can be used to both delight and terrify. They should be able to speak a clever word to cut an ego to the quick or lift a spirit to poetic heights. They bring joy to the roughest crowds and keep kings humble.


Just one person's opinion, of course. :)

Warlocks steal power. They do not necessarily create pact with powerful entity, they are magical thieves. Taking power that they have not earned and have no real understanding on how to control it.