Bard magical secrets discussion

[Syjyl4488]

I have a 10th lvl valor bard. For my first two magical secrets I picked up fireball and shadow blade...it makes him into a much bigger threat in melee combat. I was thinking shield and counter spell for 14th lvl. Opinions?

[nickl_2000]

I have a 10th lvl valor bard. For my first two magical secrets I picked up fireball and shadow blade...it makes him into a much bigger threat in melee combat. I was thinking shield and counter spell for 14th lvl. Opinions?

What is the rest of the party? In what aspect of combat or play do you find the party struggling currently?


It's really, really hard to go wrong with counterspell and shield to be honest.

[Syjyl4488]

All elf party. One blade singer, one div/demonologist wizard, one paladin, one ranger, and me the bard. Tbh, the wiz has counter spell and dispel magic, but it seems really useful...I didn’t want to pick up more offense right now because I’m set with fireball, shatter, and animate objects, and shadow blade. We’re doing salt marsh if that helps.

[JeffreyGator]

I generally stick to 5th, 6th and 7th level picks at 14th.

I would have taken counterspell and holy weapon possibly at 10th. otoh shadow blade is a much lower level slot than holy weapon.

Wall of Force is super useful but both your wizards probably have it.

For utility either of your wizard can get something so you don't need that.

Divine Word or Conjure Celestial aren't available to your party by any other means and so might be consideration.

[Syjyl4488]

Well shadowblade is a must for melee, don’t want to waste high lvl slots for something I can use at 2nd/3rd level and have it be effective. I thought about spirit guardians but would rather be able to concentrate on buffs or my shadow blade, and cast Aoe’s as needed. I’m the default healer so I have healing word, mass hw, mass cw, and raise dead. Other party members have summon spells. Lately I’ve been the magical offense n healer.

[Jaryn]

If you enjoy healing, then Heal is a pretty great spell for Magical Secrets at 14th level.

[Mr. Crowbar]

Destructive Wave is fun. 30ft radius centred on you, ignores allies, drops enemies prone.

[Nidgit]

Seems like you'd probably want to avoid stuff like Steel Wind Strike and Find Greater Steed out of respect to your paladin and ranger colleagues. I'd pick stuff off the Cleric or Druid lists mainly, like Heal or Sunbeam.

Crown of Stars is an excellent pick too.

[ZerohFG]

Seems like you'd probably want to avoid stuff like Steel Wind Strike and Find Greater Steed out of respect to your paladin and ranger colleagues. I'd pick stuff off the Cleric or Druid lists mainly, like Heal or Sunbeam.

Crown of Stars is an excellent pick too.


Steel wind and Find Greater steed are my go to at that level. It's not stepping on the paladin's toes, it's helping him out by being his literal wingman in the air. Having not one, but 2 non con flyers gives the party a huge tactical edge. I'd say steel wind hurts the rangers, but it's on the wizard list too, so it's fair game.

That said, wall of force is a great one to grab at level 10

[NathanialG]

Wrath of Nature seems like an awesome spell, but I never see it suggested as a Magical Secrets pick. Has anyone tried it? (Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread a bit)

[RogueJK]

Counterspell is a fantastic 6th level Lore Bard Magical Secrets pick, and a good Other Bard 10th level pick, but not the best 14th level pick. This is especially true for you, since you already have at least one other party caster with it.

Although Bards do get a boost of half their proficiency bonus to the Counterspell roll, making them slightly better than nearly every other caster (except Level 10+ Abjuration Wizards) at counterspelling higher level spells.

Still, I wouldn't spend your 14th level picks on Shield and Counterspell. Think bigger, like 5th, 6th, or 7th level spells... Especially higher level Cleric spells that your party doesn't otherwise have access to, like Heal, Resurrection, Conjure Celestial, etc. Other good choices for non-Cleric spells include Wall of Force, Teleport, Destructive Wave, Crown of Stars, Find Greater Steed, Disintegrate, Prismatic Spray, etc.

[Syjyl4488]

I do have a good set of damage spells, truthfully I was looking at lower level spells that I could upcast the way I could with shadowblade. There are for more low lvl slots than higher ones especially seeing as I have no idea how hi-lvl the campaign will be. I do like the idea of getting cleric spells like heal (which will help in the event that we don’t have time for a rest), since counterspell is already taken by a party member I will disregard counterspell for now. I will stick with shield as I do need the option for damage mitigation, summon spells are also taken care of, I don’t need resurrection as I have raise dead, but heal would help restore the tanks of the party to full health. Keep in mind that I can change the ms on a lvl up or once per long rest (ua rule), but the various wall spells have me thinking possibilities...will update

[Syjyl4488]

I am also considering fire shield instead of the standard shield spell

[Yakmala]

As a Valor Bard, another fun choice is Swift Quiver. Getting off four arrows at Level 10 can be very effective.

[Keravath]

Another decent choice that hasn't been mentioned yet is Circle of Power. All friendly creatures within 30' get advantage on all saves vs spells and magical effects. If they save vs a spell which does 1/2 damage on a successful save they take no damage. Combination of magic resistance and mini-evasion. Can be a bit situational but if you are fighting creatures with fireballs or lots of spells it can be a life saver.

[MrStabby]

I would pitch wrathful smite and banishment.

Wrathful smite is a great low level spell that adds a nice element of control and meshes quite nicely with valor bard goodness - armour and multiple attacks. Downside is you are probably already packing a good number of wisdom save spells.

Banishment is just an awesome spell but it scales really, really well. Added to that it is Cha based so adds a bit more diversity to what you are doing. As you are as likely to cast this as a higher level spell as a 4th level spell you will get more mileage out of this than selecting a higher level spell for magical secrets.

I would also back holy weapon, but that has already.been mentioned.

By level 14 you should be able to pick up good general spells like force cage - Something that you are generally pretty happy spending your few castings on. You are right to not feel the need to take the highest level spells you can.

[Syjyl4488]

Circle of power is a nice defensive spell, but we haven’t dealt with very many spellcasters as of yet (aside from a few in the fortress). Banishment is a nice touch as we don’t have many who can cast that...

[sigfile]

Lower level combat enhancers? Blink and Thunder Step, or Misty Step if you'd rather just bonus action your way around the battlefield.

If you're considering level one spells (Shield, Find Familiar), take those with a feat instead. After you get Wish (if the campaign goes that high), multiclass instead for some of that lower level utility.

[Syjyl4488]

If I was going to consider that wouldn’t far step be better? I mean it’s 5th lvl, but you can do it as a bonus action for a whole minute...

[Man_Over_Game]

All elf party. One blade singer, one div/demonologist wizard, one paladin, one ranger, and me the bard. Tbh, the wiz has counter spell and dispel magic, but it seems really useful...I didn’t want to pick up more offense right now because I’m set with fireball, shatter, and animate objects, and shadow blade. We’re doing salt marsh if that helps.

With a party like that, everyone's a target. I'd definitely pick up Shield, as I think you're already a valid-enough target to focus on. If your party was made of two Barbarians, that'd be one thing, but your team doesn't seem overly tanky so more defense won't be overboard.

[Syjyl4488]

I know...I have 21 ac with half plate n cop, but I’d hate for a concentration spell to get broken like animate objects...so shield and something else. Some ppl have made good suggestions like heal, banishment, and a teleportation spell, those seem pretty good, esp since I’m the de facto healer. It sucks I gotta wait til 14th lvl tho

[FinnS]

Counterspell is almost a must now especially after the clarification came from Sage advice / Twitter. Say you are in the process of casting fireball and an enemy castor starts casting counterspell to stop your fireball. You can, right in the middle of casting your fireball, cast counterspell with your reaction to counter his counterspell and then your fireball goes off without issue.

And of course it goes without saying that counterspell and dispel magic are more powerful when used by a Bard as you get to apply your Jack of all Trades to the rolls.

[Zetakya]

A general guideline for Magical Secrets is to select spells that work with your character concept, backstory and the niche you are filling in the party. Characterisation is way more interesting to play than Optimization, in my experience.

I'd also quite happily choose lower level spells than the maximum permitted, if it served the character concept well. Between Upcasting lower level spells and your native high level Bard Spells there's a lot of choices already for relatively few high level spells per day. You can get more mileage out of a lower level spell if you choose well (& ofc you can potentially upcast your Magical Secret Spell).

[ZerohFG]

With a party like that, everyone's a target. I'd definitely pick up Shield, as I think you're already a valid-enough target to focus on. If your party was made of two Barbarians, that'd be one thing, but your team doesn't seem overly tanky so more defense won't be overboard. I wouldn't waste magical secrets on a spell i could easily get by a lvl 1 dip of sorcerer, which would net me several level 1 spells, and much needed attack cantrips. I agree with the idea a defensive upgrade is needed, I just can't see burning a magical secret for it. Mirror image on the other hand would be a better upgrade for a bard. Even then, you could just as easily snag wall of force at this level which is a great defensive spell.

[Syjyl4488]

At this point I wouldn’t want to multi class, that being said i tank more often than not and enemies have multi attack which cuts down in the effectiveness of mirror image. Shield would be my go to, since my 1st lvl slots aren’t getting much love atm...as far as optimization vs characterization counterspell is viable but since it’s covered and I am the de facto healer it makes more sense to go for damage mitigation or healing.

[Nagog]

I've found mid level spells that are typically only available to Rangers and Paladins to be excellent choices for Magical Secrets. Mostly because they typically aren't available until late game for these classes, so their powerscaling is a bit high for the slot level.

[Syjyl4488]

What does the hive mind think about planar ally? Not really sure what I could summon given that my character isn’t devoted to a particular deity, but given enough downtime to research one, is it versatile enough?

[follacchioso]

What about Tenser's transformation for lv 14th? It would suit you for the role of occasional tank.

[diplomancer]

A general guideline for Magical Secrets is to select spells that work with your character concept, backstory and the niche you are filling in the party. Characterisation is way more interesting to play than Optimization, in my experience.

I'd also quite happily choose lower level spells than the maximum permitted, if it served the character concept well. Between Upcasting lower level spells and your native high level Bard Spells there's a lot of choices already for relatively few high level spells per day. You can get more mileage out of a lower level spell if you choose well (& ofc you can potentially upcast your Magical Secret Spell).

I agree, and I think that, if you choose a magical secret that fits your character concept, even if it's not on the "most recommended list", you will find good uses for it. One interesting balance is to try to choose one "optimization" and one "characterization" spell.

One other suggestion that I think does not get enough attention is to try to get spells of different levels, so they don't "compete" with each other.

Following those 2 rules, my Lore Bard selection pick for 6 level was Counterspell (optimization, 3rd level) and Nystul's magical aura (characterization, 2nd level). And, funnily enough, I am actually using the Nystul magical aura spell MORE than the counterspell, as it really fits my Lore Bard modus operandi.

[Chugger]

Circle of Power, lvl 5 pal spell, is really good. Even if a Pal in the party has it, they may want to use their slots for smiting. As a bard it might be better for you to cast it, esp if you have warcaster feat or resil con - and you're likely to be targeted less.

It gives everyone in a 30' radius advantage on all saves vs magic and ends damage from many spells. It's stupid good in many fights, and a lot of people overlook it.

[ThatDuckGrant]

I would pitch wrathful smite and banishment.

I would also back holy weapon, but that has already.been mentioned.



Just gonna throw this out there, holy weapon is a terrible spell for damage dealing. You're better off casting Bless - assuming your paladin isn't already.



TL/DR Holy Weapon increases the damage of one character by ~35%. Bless increases the damage of every character who makes attack rolls by ~25%. AND its more useful the tougher the opponent is to hit.

A fighter does 2d6+5 (12) damage on a hit. If he hits 50% of the time, his average damage is 6 per attack. if the fighter is level 11, he attacks 3 times for an average damage of 18 per action.

With Bless, the same fighter hits 62.5% of the time, each attack now deals expected damage of 7.5. This, if he makes 3 attacks the expected damage per action is an average of 22.5.

(22.5-18)/18 =.25 or 25% so the fighter in the second scenario deals 25% more damage than in the first scenario.

Now lets consider if that fighter had Holy weapon cast on his greatsword instead of being blessed. The fighter now deals 2d6+2d8+5 (21) damage per hit, but still only hits at 50% accuracy. 21*50% = 10.5. 10.5x3 = 31.5 damage per action. in this case, the fighter increased his damage by 75%, much better than the damage increase by Bless.

Now however, lets look at a scenario that might be more common in your games. This fighter is a big angry Goliath who maxed out his strength at level 6 and used his feat at level 8 for Great Weapon Master (GWM). He also plays in a fairly standard D&D campaign and by level 11 he has a +2 Greatsword. This fighter now hits 60% of the time when not using GWM (from the +2 to hit from the greatsword) for 2d6+7 (14) damage per attack. If he uses GWM, he only hits 35% of the time, but deals 2d6+17 (24) damage per attack. We already know that Bless is more effective is situations where you're less likely to succeed, so lets assume he really wants to deal as much damage as possible.

In this case, Bless yields expected damage of 24 x 42.5% = 10.2 x 3 = 30.6 damage per action.
Holy Weapon yields expected damage of 33 x 35% = 11.55 x 3 = 34.65 damage per action.

So yes, in this case, Holy Weapon yields a slightly higher damage output per action on this big angry Goliath. But in your case, you don't get as much of a boost to damage from holy weapon as a fighter would. You also have a Bladesinger, a Ranger, and a Paladin who would all love to have the advantage of Bless. Not to mention your Wizard holding concentration on Wall of Force (or similar) probably wouldn't mind the concentration help.


Nothing personal Mr. Stabby, I also noticed a few people mentioning it, you just happened to be the last.

[RogueJK]

Just gonna throw this out there, holy weapon is a terrible spell for damage dealing. You're better off casting Bless - assuming your paladin isn't already.


And in addition to the overall damage increase (thanks for the math BTW), Bless also benefits saving throws too. That's not only an extra boost to the party's durability in general, it also means Bless is less likely to be disrupted due to this bonus to Concentration checks, provided you include yourself as one of the blessed characters.

[MrStabby]

Just gonna throw this out there, holy weapon is a terrible spell for damage dealing. You're better off casting Bless - assuming your paladin isn't already.



TL/DR Holy Weapon increases the damage of one character by ~35%. Bless increases the damage of every character who makes attack rolls by ~25%. AND its more useful the tougher the opponent is to hit.

A fighter does 2d6+5 (12) damage on a hit. If he hits 50% of the time, his average damage is 6 per attack. if the fighter is level 11, he attacks 3 times for an average damage of 18 per action.

With Bless, the same fighter hits 62.5% of the time, each attack now deals expected damage of 7.5. This, if he makes 3 attacks the expected damage per action is an average of 22.5.

(22.5-18)/18 =.25 or 25% so the fighter in the second scenario deals 25% more damage than in the first scenario.

Now lets consider if that fighter had Holy weapon cast on his greatsword instead of being blessed. The fighter now deals 2d6+2d8+5 (21) damage per hit, but still only hits at 50% accuracy. 21*50% = 10.5. 10.5x3 = 31.5 damage per action. in this case, the fighter increased his damage by 75%, much better than the damage increase by Bless.

Now however, lets look at a scenario that might be more common in your games. This fighter is a big angry Goliath who maxed out his strength at level 6 and used his feat at level 8 for Great Weapon Master (GWM). He also plays in a fairly standard D&D campaign and by level 11 he has a +2 Greatsword. This fighter now hits 60% of the time when not using GWM (from the +2 to hit from the greatsword) for 2d6+7 (14) damage per attack. If he uses GWM, he only hits 35% of the time, but deals 2d6+17 (24) damage per attack. We already know that Bless is more effective is situations where you're less likely to succeed, so lets assume he really wants to deal as much damage as possible.

In this case, Bless yields expected damage of 24 x 42.5% = 10.2 x 3 = 30.6 damage per action.
Holy Weapon yields expected damage of 33 x 35% = 11.55 x 3 = 34.65 damage per action.

So yes, in this case, Holy Weapon yields a slightly higher damage output per action on this big angry Goliath. But in your case, you don't get as much of a boost to damage from holy weapon as a fighter would. You also have a Bladesinger, a Ranger, and a Paladin who would all love to have the advantage of Bless. Not to mention your Wizard holding concentration on Wall of Force (or similar) probably wouldn't mind the concentration help.


Nothing personal Mr. Stabby, I also noticed a few people mentioning it, you just happened to be the last.

I think you are missing a LOT of the differences. A bonus action casting time gives a valour bard space to make two extra attacks. A sixty-fold increase in duration is not to be sniffed at. Illuminating the area is nice, especially as it counts as light from a 5th level spell. Counting as a magic weapon is probably not a big deal but access to radiant damage often is.

I wont quibble with your maths too much other than on two points.

1) I would say the usual to hit chance in my experience is closer to 60% than 50% although obviously this will vary by campaign.

2) full benefits of bless really come into play when you have 3 party members making attack rolls. If you have grapplers or spell casters not making multiple attack rolls each turn it is somewhat weaker

Not saying bless is a bad spell. It is a great spell. Take both. Use whichever is better in the circumstance in which you find yourself. If you are fighting a swarm of shadows then holy weapon is likely to be better. If you are fighting iron golems then bless will have the advantage.

[ThatDuckGrant]

I think you are missing a LOT of the differences. A bonus action casting time gives a valour bard space to make two extra attacks. A sixty-fold increase in duration is not to be sniffed at. Illuminating the area is nice, especially as it counts as light from a 5th level spell. Counting as a magic weapon is probably not a big deal but access to radiant damage often is.

I wont quibble with your maths too much other than on two points.

1) I would say the usual to hit chance in my experience is closer to 60% than 50% although obviously this will vary by campaign.

2) full benefits of bless really come into play when you have 3 party members making attack rolls. If you have grapplers or spell casters not making multiple attack rolls each turn it is somewhat weaker

Not saying bless is a bad spell. It is a great spell. Take both. Use whichever is better in the circumstance in which you find yourself. If you are fighting a swarm of shadows then holy weapon is likely to be better. If you are fighting iron golems then bless will have the advantage.

Hey, I appreciate this. The math was lifted off a longer piece I wrote specifically about Bless and it admittedly isn’t the most sound in this shorter form.

I also had missed that holy weapon was an hour long. That’s actually pretty darn good. Though as a Valor Bard (especially one considering taking shield) I’m guessing the limiting factor will be his concentration. The other unique thing about the valor bard is that at level 14 he can cast Bless and make an attack as a bonus action, so the difference is only 1 attack.

Otherwise I do want to respond to your assumptions:

1. 60% is probably a fair assumption for an average. Bless is best used against stronger opponents (who are also more likely to hit you and break your concentration) where the to hit chance might be lower than 50%. Like you said, it’s situational.

2. He told us his party involves a ranger and a paladin. Between them and the valor bard there should be plenty of attacks going around. The blade singer would be a good option for bumping Bless to 2nd level.

And lastly, the part that makes Bless by far the better option is the resource cost it takes. We’re debating the merits of a 1st level spell versus a 5th. That’s why I’m so against Holy Weapon. It’s a good effect, just not worth the cost.

[iTreeby]

Magic jar is the best spell for the 14th level spell secret because bards are the best caster of magic jar.

[HappyDaze]

If you enjoy healing, then Heal is a pretty great spell for Magical Secrets at 14th level.

How about Healing Spirit? You can cast it from as low as a 2nd level slot, but it scales surprisingly well.

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

I've got 4 AL bards!

Level 20 valor bard - general support/swiss army knife build
Level 10 secrets: Destructive wave, conjure woodland beings (Summoning enough quicklings will ruin the boss's day.)
Level 14: Counterspell (I've run into a surprising lack of counterspell in my parties) simulacrum
Level 18: Meteor swarm, wish

Level 16 whisper bard - archer build
Level 10: Find greater steed, swift quiver
Level 14: Conjure volley, simulacrum

Level 10 sword bard - melee build
Level 10 secret: Banishing smite, Steel wind strike

level 10 lore bard - healer build
Level 6 secrets: Counterspell, healing spirit
Level 10: Farstep, holy weapon

[Syjyl4488]

I’m seeing some great suggestions...but can anyone offer me some insights into the planar ally spell? I want to get an idea of what I could potentially summon/how versatile it might be.

[Nagog]

I’m seeing some great suggestions...but can anyone offer me some insights into the planar ally spell? I want to get an idea of what I could potentially summon/how versatile it might be.

What kind of creature you summon is entirely based on what planar being you contact and what your DM is willing to give you with it. It's a pretty good spell overall, but it essentially just allows you to hire an NPC of greater power and potential, with a price matching the services. I would say it's not worth a Magical Secret for. If you're looking for a summonable ally, however, you could look at something like Find Greater Steed, Faithful Hound, Guardian of Faith, Spiritual Weapon, etc. Overall, many of the conjuration spells are costly, and could backfire should your concentration be broken, which as a Valor Bard is fairly likely.

[HappyDaze]

I’m seeing some great suggestions...but can anyone offer me some insights into the planar ally spell? I want to get an idea of what I could potentially summon/how versatile it might be.

That's going to largely depend on your DM, so that's the first person I'd suggest you ask.

[sambojin]

Simulacrum is probably what you want. What's better than you? More you! Or more of the wizard, if you feel like you need more counterspell. You need a source of snow and a fair bit of time to make one, but after that it's amazing.

A big mention to Conjure Celestial as well. Coautl's are that good. They can be anyone. They can get a heap of different styles of magic. They can be your flying mount, that talks, and still has magic. They can even be a kobold inventor if you want them to be. Sure, they only last an hour, but they only take a minute to cast, unlike Simulacrum above.

[follacchioso]

Telekinesis is also fun, especially for a Lore Bard.

It's a contested Spell Casting Ability Check versus Strength. As a bard you can add half of that, so assuming CHR 20, you can get +7/+8. Note that neither you nor the enemy adds their Proficiency bonus.
Lv 14+ Lore Bards can also use a Bardic Inspiration Dice; and if you can cast the lv 8 spell Glibness, you have a minimum total of 22/23. If somebody else casts Enhance Ability on you, you can get advantage on the roll.

If you target enemies with low STR, you are likely to be able to disarm them or restrain them at the first attempt. Facing a lv 20 wizard about to cast Wish against you? Just throw their Spellcasting focus off the cliff. Barbarian charging at you? This is more risky (they get advantage when raging), but you can probably restrain him or disarm him in a few attempts.

[HPisBS]

Should've picked up Destructive Wave over Fireball (as Valor, you're probably in the midst of the melee, right? So being at the epicenter of a blast that knocks 'em prone is pretty juicy).

Otherwise, Shield and Counterspell are always solid picks. Shadow Blade is kinda too flavorful not to pick as a melee build, but there's just so much else you could be doing with that concentration.

Like Telekinesis. Hit a m*****-****** with another m*****-******.

[Syjyl4488]

HP, actually came in really handy against the sahuagin mobs we kept running into in the fortress...I thought about switching it, but I want to save my higher lvl slots for special spells...it’s a better pick than any other pure dmg spell at 3rd level

[Syjyl4488]

Tbh, I have to pick up shield...even my dm was facepalming at the damage I was taking (even asked me why I didn’t just use shield) smh when I told him I didn’t have it lol...I thought about switching out fireball but it was so helpful last session I can’t imagine being without it. It sucks I gotta wait until 14th lvl, but I can’t really do without s.b. and fb.