to multiclass or not?

[n00b]

I'm about to start with a new campaign at level 3. Currently I've decided to go with a Warlock 3/Bard X. But I wonder... As much as the Warlock adds with Eldritch/Agonizing Blast am I going to regret being 3 levels behind on Bard spells? We have plenty of front line power so my thought was to stand in the back lobbing blasts for damage and Bard spells as needed. But will I be more effective with maximum Bard levels? Never played a Bard so I really don't know what I'm missing out on.

[DwarfDM]

It depends on what you want.

Is roleplaying important? Does it fit your character to become a Bard?

My own experience is that MC characters are better at one or two things but they are behind with everything else.
So it depends on what you think is important.

Also, a full warlock played tacticaly can do a lot of damage from a safe range.

[JumboWheat01]

If you go Lore Bard, you can still snag Eldritch Blast as a bonus free spell/cantrip. You can't tack on Antagonizing Blast, but you can still do a decent 1-4d10 of damage every round if blasting is needed. And with Magical Secrets, you can still pick up even more blasty spells if you feel you need more offensive oomph to supplement the Bard's fantastic list of Leader and Controller style spells.

Being a Lore Bard also provides you with great skill versatility, 6 skills of your choice from being a Lore Bard (3 from base Bard + 3 from College of Lore,) plus whatever you get from your race and background. That's a fair degree of utility without expending a single spell slot, which helps make up for Bard's Ritual Casting (they need to know the spell in order to cast it as a Ritual.)

So no, I don't think you need to multiclass, just be a Lore Bard to have all your casting goodness.

[RogueJK]

As much as the Warlock adds with Eldritch/Agonizing Blast am I going to regret being 3 levels behind on Bard spells? We have plenty of front line power so my thought was to stand in the back lobbing blasts for damage and Bard spells as needed. But will I be more effective with maximum Bard levels?

Optimization-wise, Bard benefits from 1 level of Warlock, or Magic Initiate Warlock, to add some better direct damage cantrip capabilities with Eldritch Blast. 1 level of Warlock also gets you some potentially useful Patron benefits, some extra cantrips, and a few additional 1st level spells per day. Best of all, a 1 level multiclass dip doesn't put you noticeably behind. 2 levels of Warlock is enticing for invocations, especially more damage on your Eldritch Blasts since you're planning to rely on that heavily, but at that point you're a full spell level behind a single classed Bard. Going 3 levels of Warlock for Pact benefits and 2nd level short rest spell slots is potentially doable, but very costly and therefore not optimal.

As a primary spellcaster, being 2-3 levels behind in your primary caster class is a steep price. You'll almost certainly want those higher level spells to keep up with enemy advancement and the advancement of the rest of your party. Especially with it being two different types of casters... You'd not only delay your higher level spells known, but also your higher level spell slots. If you were to multiclass with any other spellcaster class, your levels would stack for purposes of determining spell slots, so it lessens the cost a bit. Not so when mixing a Pact caster Warlock and a Spell caster Bard.

In addition, taking Warlock levels delays your Bard ASIs too. Unless you've rolled well for stats and already have an 18+ in CHA, your stat advancement (and therefore your spellcasting) may suffer from the delayed stat boosts. You can hang with a 16 CHA in Tier 1, but not much past that.

So 1 level of Warlock is a good choice from an optimization standpoint, but I'd stop there. And if you're a Variant Human, skipping Warlock levels altogether and taking Magic Initiate Warlock is another good choice.

Or going straight Lore Bard as discussed above is another way to eventually get Eldritch Blast, although it won't come online until 6th level. And it's tough to spend your Magical Secrets on a cantrip when you could be using it to pick up one of the very useful cross-class 2nd or 3rd level spells instead. (Honestly, provided I already had a good CHA and didn't need the immediate stat boost, I'd rather spend a Lore Bard's 4th/8th level ASI on Magic Initiate to get EB, rather than spend half of my 6th level Magical Secrets on it.)


But optimization aside, there are some character concepts that would benefit from 3 levels of Warlock, where even if it isn't an optimized choice, it could fit the character.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I will ask you the same thing I ask my friend when he tells me he want to multiclass:
What do you want to get from it?
Why?
Is it worth it?


Answering those questions will help you make up your mind.

[Sigreid]

My general rule for myself is if I'm questioning whether I want to multi class, I dont.

[Quietus]

Multiclass warlock /bard the way you're looking at it can work, but only if what you're looking for is a basic damage option in Eldritch blast. My suggestion would be only 2 levels of warlock at most for now, for Eldritch blast, invocations, and two short rest spell slots. Then focus on bars to get your level 6 ability. At that point you can consider whether you'd rather push the test bard, or dip one more level warlock for the pact benefit and make those short rest slots second level.

[Sception]

If you're concerned about dealing damage, take the warlock levels. If you're worried about running into frequent combats with enemies that are immune or highly resistant to types of offensive spells a bard uses, then take the warlock levels. As an example, if this were a character for a descent to avernus game, I'd say take the warlock levels, as the majority of bardic offensive combat spells are of the 'save or suck' variety, and the demons and devils that make up a large number of the combat encounters there almost always have advantage on saving throws vs. spells and magic effects.

If however you're just focused on buffing and support, or if you're in a campaign where most of the combat encounters are against enemies vulnerable to a bard's tricks - say an urban type campaign where most enemies are humanoids of various types & levels - then you could go either way, but you'll probably be better off sticking to straight bard to access higher level spells and spell slots sooner.



That said, bard is a fine class on its own, and it combines well with warlock, so both single classed bard and bardlock should do fine regardless of the campaign. So you should feel free to decide based on thematic and narrative concerns. Personally, I like bardlock thematically and would endorse the multiclass on that level alone. It provides your bard with a supernatural patron of the arts, and that's just a juicy narrative hook right there.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm about to start with a new campaign at level 3. Currently I've decided to go with a Warlock 3/Bard X. I suggest Warlock. What pact are you going to get?

[Keravath]

I have a level 15 character - lore bard 13/hexblade warlock 2 character and I have found them fun to play.

The main reasons to take 2 levels of hexblade warlock:
- armor and shield proficiencies - wearing medium armor and a shield really increases the survivability of the bard.
- agonizing blast - bards do not have any good at will damage options - vicious mockery at Xd4 need not apply and the one attack disadvantage isn't much when the targets get 2 or 3 attacks.
- another invocation - in my case, I took devils sight which let my variant human bard see in the dark. Without it, bards don't have much that will let them see in the dark and need to hope they find goggles of night (if they are playing a race without darkvision). I took resilient con at first level since bards frequently need to concentrate on spells)
- shield and hex spells + one more (both of these can be very useful for a lore bard either on defence or attack).
- two short rest first level spell slots.

The third level of hexblade warlock is more debatable:
- pact boon - chain, tome or blade - chain or tome are useful for a lore bard even if you only get up to 2nd level rituals - you also need to take the applicable invocation to get those rituals.
- two second level short rest spell slots and a couple of second level spells (darkness can work with devils sight if you took that as your second invocation).
- HOWEVER, if you think your game will go to level 20 - the third level of warlock causes the bard to lose their 18th level magical secrets which lets them choose any two ninth level spells to know (wish + one other) ... it is a decent capstone for an 18 bard/2 warlock if the game goes that far and you miss out on it with a third level of warlock. Since I expect the character to hit 20 eventually, I haven't taken the third level of warlock.

Leveling. I found taking the two levels of warlock early worked best so that the character was a 3 bard/2 warlock at level 5. Yes, this puts the character behind a level of spells, getting level 2 spells instead of level 3. However, agonizing blast scales with total level so your ability to contribute direct damage scales with your total level. Level 6 was the hardest level since I didn't yet have level 3 spells. However, after level 7, I didn't find I missed the next level of spells. I took fireball and counterspell as 6th level bard magical secrets.

In terms of actual play, agonizing blast gave me something useful to do in at least two major encounters. In one case, we were fighting undead dragons including a draco-lich. Some have magic resistance and some have legendary saves. I cast Animate objects to do some damage but none of the other spells could stick and many bard spells rely on charm and these creatures were immune to charm. In a more recent encounter, we were fighting hordes of undead, I relied on fireball and synaptic static when appropriate as well as a wall of force to break up the attack. However, while concentrating on the wall, the creatures surrounded members of the group and area of effect spells would hit team mates if positioned to hit as many opponents as possible. Agonizing blast to the rescue. After I dropped the wall of force, I switched to hex for concentration and agonizing blast to drop the stragglers faster.

Basically, there are encounters where a bard can be stuck with very little to do because their spells won't stick. Undead, devils, demons, creature with magic resistance as well as creatures immune to charm. Bards have some good single target crowd control but AoE crowd control is either wall of force or charm based. If the bard is concentrating on a spell, their direct damage spell options are usually pretty limited, so agonizing blast gives them a very reasonable fall back. Force damage is rarely resisted.

---

So, in my experience, I found a two level hexblade warlock dip for my lore bard to be a worthwhile trade off. Using agonizing blast gets a bit boring but honestly it is far more boring and frustrating to have little or nothing you can do instead when your spells are being resisted or you are already concentrating on something.

It is possible to pick up eldritch blast as a magic secret (or any other damaging cantrip) but there are a lot of good spells that can be picked up using magical secrets and the other methods of getting it don't add your charisma modifier to the damage of each bolt.

Anyway, ultimately the choice it up to you :) ... either way works.

[MagneticKitty]

I'd be more apt to pick a tiefling that comes with a good attack cantrip (one has ray of frost) and pass on warlock. Multiclassing two casters who can't stack total spell level and slots is painful to me

[KillingTime]

I'd skip on the Multiclass altogether.
Lore Bard is a very strong class by itself, and its strongest features come online at 3 (cutting words), 5 (short rest inspiration & lvl3 spells) and 6 (magical secrets). You're really pushing back advancement in your primary features for the sake of access to a cantrip.
You're not meant to be a primary damage dealer as a Bard. If you want to stay relevant in combat then grab magic initiate or be a high elf or a tiefling - or just use a crossbow.
Your benefit to the party is in your extremely powerful buffing, debuffing, controlling, skill monkeying and face. Putting these abilities back three levels isn't worth it at all.

[CTurbo]

Could you give us more information about your character concept? Why are you wanting to be a Bard?

Which Warlock Patron and Pact were you considering?

Which Bard college?





If I'm making a Bard, I would want to get to level 5 as soon as possible for 3rd level spells and short rest(and larger) Inspiration dice. If I'm a Lore Bard, I want level 6 Magical Secrets asap too.

If you just want to be a Bard with more offensive firepower, be Variant Human and start with Magic Initiate.

[Chugger]

If you want to be powerful, I generally find going sorlock is better than bardlock. Sorlock lets you use quicken to, in key fights, double your eldritch blast spells. This is very hard-hitting on single targets - and you can still use sorcerer area spells - or control spells - or buffs or debuffs.

If you're going warlock bard for some character thing, for some concept you have in mind, tell us what it is so we can better help you.

[clash]

I would suggest always either multiclassing only one level or going to 5. As someone who has done a lot of multiclassing 3 levels really hurts.

Multiclassing 1 level gets you some early game bonuses and in balance you are always lagging behind everyone else by one level, but it isnt so bad. When they get their first asi you get 2nd level spells and possibly your archetype. When they get their 5th level power boost, you get your asi etc.

By taking 5 levels first, you never really feel behind as each class is pretty well defined by level 5 and doesnt really get a significant power boost until level 11.

If you start with 3 levels you wont get your first asi until level 7, when most other players are getting there second by level 8. You wont have 3rd level spells or short rest inspiration until level 8 and others have been enjoying them for probably 6 months by then. I really wouldn't recommend it

[Natteregn]

I would see how it fits with your character. Why add bard? is it because the warlock is trying to get away from the patron, and avoid what the patron wants?

Why is the multiclass a thing.

I have a sorceror who took two levels in fighter, because the team tried, haveing all magic taken away, and she got so scared that she could not defend herself that she got training from the local fighter.

[bendking]

I would suggest Hexblade Warlock 1/Swords Bard X. It's a good multiclass. You're both a full caster and a very decent melee combatant, with great AC.

[n00b]

For those asking about the choices of Warlock and Bard in regards to character motivation or background... The honest answer is I look at mechanics first then develop a story around that. So initially my char has no motivation for what he does. I try to pick race/class combinations that I think will be fun to play and develop that part first, then I can create a backstory that fits those choices. I'm not a roleplayer much but I do make the effort to do so as there are some at my table that enjoy that. We have a pretty mixed group in that regard so we all try to accommodate each other. I push the edge of min/max but sometimes I pick things just for fun, but we have one that is purely min/max and rolling dice and that's about it. But to sum it up right now I'm just looking at the mechanics. And to be honest I'm possibly leaning in a different direction now and considering Divination Wizard 2 for Portent dice and the rest Bard. But right now nothing is set in stone.

[ZorroGames]

I always read this thread before making a decision about

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?502248-Ultimate-Optimizer-s-Multiclassing-Guide

Reminds me what is my goal, more oomph or more fun.

[n00b]

I always read this thread before making a decision about

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?502248-Ultimate-Optimizer-s-Multiclassing-Guide

Reminds me what is my goal, more oomph or more fun.

That's rather funny. That is actually where my bookmark is. I get to the forums from there.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I'm about to start with a new campaign at level 3. Currently I've decided to go with a Warlock 3/Bard X. But I wonder... As much as the Warlock adds with Eldritch/Agonizing Blast am I going to regret being 3 levels behind on Bard spells? We have plenty of front line power so my thought was to stand in the back lobbing blasts for damage and Bard spells as needed. But will I be more effective with maximum Bard levels? Never played a Bard so I really don't know what I'm missing out on.

My answer to multiclassing is almost always "no". There are very few times you can't just do something straight class and MC is funky.


I'm not a huge fan of the Bard class, they're strong, but I feel other classes shine a bit better. I based my fighter around the idea of a Spell-less Bard and I love it, so I'm not sure what about bards are off putting.

Why not just Fey Pact Warlock with Tome boon (grab vicious mockery) and the Actor or Prodigy Feat?

If you do go caster Bard, go straight Lore Bard, and pick up Eldritch Blast via magical secrets?

[ZorroGames]

I think the first and most important question to ask is how far this campaign may go. If it takes 9 levels to come online is the campaign likely to reach Tier 3? How far into Tier 3? Tier 4?

If I am willing to slowly climb the levels in AL games at one shop weekly it may be worth the work but if I never see Tier 4 games in AL there I need to decide if that meets my character concept (in the style of model Treantmonk uses uses, not the one I see most often,) enough to make late Tier 3 worthwhile while grinding out my build.