Building Up My Battle-Mage

[SociopathFriend]

I had originally intended my Mad Mage Dungeon Wizard to be a walking horror movie homage.

He dressed like an undertaker, dissected corpses, practiced Necromancy, spoke with a (not good but not horrible) stereotypical Transylvanian, often laughed at the thought of death, and he took a lot of atmospheric spells like Fog Cloud, Web, etc.

The issue however is that the original party he joined died. Some players have even gone through multiple characters.

I am now level 10 of a party that is mostly levels 7s with one 8 and one 11.
We have exactly one Fighter- otherwise everyone else is a primary spellcaster: Warlock, Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, etc.

The trope approach isn't working anymore. The group I'd been cultivating that with is dead and the new blood is so squishy that they can be removed from a fight in one round.
One of the level 7s is a Wizard with '26 hp'.
We have point-buy stats and average/rolled hp per level. Anything that's a threat to the level 11 Sorcerer can wipe him off the table with ease. The rest of the group is not much better.

So I need more staying power in combat. I need to be more durable so that I can carry past one bad round or two.
The goal is no longer "horror archetype" but "Armored Dark Magic Lord". I will lead this group to victory no matter how many bodies fall (and rise again) in my way.

Thus far I am/have:

Necromancer Wizard 9 - Life Cleric 1
Stats - 11 / 14 / 14 / 20 / 14 / 10
Health: 51 (71 with Amulet)
AC: 19
Magic Attuned Items: +1 Spellguard Shield, Amulet of Health, Periapt of Wound Closure
I have an Adamantine Breastplate coming along in 12 in-game days

And I have currently 3 Zombies with nothing and 3 Skeletons with typical Drow Equipment in a Bag of Holding


So in terms of spells, items, and plausibly build advice- how do I go about becoming harder to kill? Ideally without having to multiclass anymore so I can continue advancing as a Wizard?

I don't want to list all of my spells but I will mention I have some staple ones:
Vampiric Touch, Greater Invisibility, Fire Shield, Mirror Image, Shield, False Life, Magic Missile, Enlarge-Reduce, Find Familiar.

[MrStabby]

I think you should be fine, to be honest. With decent AC, especially if you can get a nice shield, access to shield spell and spells like protection from good and evil should see you ok.

Between life cleric and necromancer hp recovery you should be able to keep your HP topped up. You are not immortal by a long stretch, but you should be solid enough.

[SociopathFriend]

I think you should be fine, to be honest. With decent AC, especially if you can get a nice shield, access to shield spell and spells like protection from good and evil should see you ok.

Between life cleric and necromancer hp recovery you should be able to keep your HP topped up. You are not immortal by a long stretch, but you should be solid enough.

It is actually extremely satisfying to drop something with Vampiric Touch and regain:
3d6/2 + 14 HP

My main worry is just getting hit points and Saves up and running I think. I can already play unfair in combat with any purely martial enemy via Greater Invisibility, Mirror Image, or Fire Shield.

[Christew]

One of the level 7s is a Wizard with '26 hp'.
...
So I need more staying power in combat. I need to be more durable so that I can carry past one bad round or two.

Wait, how does a level 7 wizard have only 26 hp?
Even with a d6 hit die and a 0 CON mod (which a Wizard should definitely not have if he/she wants to concentrate at all) you would get 6 at first level and 4 on each level up for a total of 30.

Per your build, there is nothing you can really do to improve staying power at this point. You have good AC, undead minions, healing, and mid tier wizard spells. Further multiclassing will just muck up your spell progression. I agree that abandoning theme for optimization may be necessary if you are shepherding weaker characters, but you have all the tools you need.
1) pick your spells with an eye towards God wizard playstyle
2) talk to your group about their own choices (both in character design and party tactics). Warlock and Bard can both be built as quasi-frontliners for example.

[SociopathFriend]

Wait, how does a level 7 wizard have only 26 hp?
Even with a d6 hit die and a 0 CON mod (which a Wizard should definitely not have if he/she wants to concentrate at all) you would get 6 at first level and 4 on each level up for a total of 30.

It might be 27 but it's definitely not 30. It's roll or average. He rolled. I won't roll because I don't trust the die not to screw me. I have routinely rolled two 1's with Advantage enough that it's a known thing at the table.
I dunno what his Con is mind you. I know he says his Intelligence forces DC 16 saves and he has an 8 for Strength. Everything beyond that I couldn't tell you.




Per your build, there is nothing you can really do to improve staying power at this point. You have good AC, undead minions, healing, and mid tier wizard spells. Further multiclassing will just muck up your spell progression. I agree that abandoning theme for optimization may be necessary if you are shepherding weaker characters, but you have all the tools you need.
1) pick your spells with an eye towards God wizard playstyle
2) talk to your group about their own choices (both in character design and party tactics). Warlock and Bard can both be built as quasi-frontliners for example.

And just this session the level 11 Sorcerer bit a Disintegrate to the face so all his magic items just got turned to dust. Even if we get him back all his gold value is gone.
God Wizard is control yes? Because I'm eyeing Water Sphere for next level for Strength Saves. I just dunno what to grab from 6th level spells and up because I so rarely reach this point particularly as a Wizard.


The party plays by the metric of, "Play what you want to play and how you want to play."
The Warlock doesn't want anything to do with the frontline and the Bard is a player that isn't always there to begin with.

But I'm fine with dark lord as a changed trope.
There's more than one way to impose fear.

https://youtu.be/gKsEPoJMuKY

[Christew]

It might be 27 but it's definitely not 30. It's roll or average. He rolled. I won't roll because I don't trust the die not to screw me. I have routinely rolled two 1's with Advantage enough that it's a known thing at the table.
I dunno what his Con is mind you. I know he says his Intelligence forces DC 16 saves and he has an 8 for Strength. Everything beyond that I couldn't tell you.
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I never roll for hp for exactly this reason. The fact that they round up the "average" means that probability-wise rolling will yield lower numbers. At least he's got a decent spell DC? Sounds like the glassiest of cannons.


And just this session the level 11 Sorcerer bit a Disintegrate to the face so all his magic items just got turned to dust. Even if we get him back all his gold value is gone.
God Wizard is control yes? Because I'm eyeing Water Sphere for next level for Strength Saves. I just dunno what to grab from 6th level spells and up because I so rarely reach this point particularly as a Wizard.
Wow, unlucky. Yeah, God Wizard focuses on buffing, debuffing, and battlefield control. Best guide/discussion on it would be here. (https://www.enworld.org/threads/treantmonks-guide-to-wizards-5e.450158/) Watery sphere is certainly nice, especially if you are trying to diversify the saves you target, but keep in mind that higher tier enemies tend to be a bit ... STRong. Part two of Treantmonk's guide gives a pretty in depth breakdown of spell options.


The party plays by the metric of, "Play what you want to play and how you want to play."
The Warlock doesn't want anything to do with the frontline and the Bard is a player that isn't always there to begin with.

I am generally a fan of this philosophy, though I think it becomes less appealing at higher level play. When the threats become more severe, somebody has to tank the damage they are putting out. Usually the meat grinder of getting to tier 3 has weeded out weaker characters (like your sub 30 hp Wizard friend) and taught good teamwork and tactical playstyle.

May your dice be kind!

[SociopathFriend]

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I never roll for hp for exactly this reason. The fact that they round up the "average" means that probability-wise rolling will yield lower numbers. At least he's got a decent spell DC? Sounds like the glassiest of cannons.

I'm not entirely sure his is correct now that I think about it. CAN you have a Wizard 16 DC at level 7 with point-buy? As a Drow?
His previous character was a higher-leveled Cleric so I wonder if he has his DC wrong. Because mine's 17 and I'm maxed on Intelligence and at level 10. He should be down a Proficiency point and I don't think he should've been capable of having maxed Intelligence yet so his should be 2 lower than mine.




Wow, unlucky. Yeah, God Wizard focuses on buffing, debuffing, and battlefield control. Best guide/discussion on it would be here. (https://www.enworld.org/threads/treantmonks-guide-to-wizards-5e.450158/) Watery sphere is certainly nice, especially if you are trying to diversify the saves you target, but keep in mind that higher tier enemies tend to be a bit ... STRong. Part two of Treantmonk's guide gives a pretty in depth breakdown of spell options.

I won't lie the Water Sphere is 50% an insurance against the party of casters that are, at best, chaotic neutral. With some members actively being evil.
That said ah the mythical Treantmonk guide. I suppose I'll take a look there after all. I remember disagreeing with some of his calls when someone was reposting his videos here and discussing his spell choices but perhaps the overall guide goes more in-depth or features changed ratings.




I am generally a fan of this philosophy, though I think it becomes less appealing at higher level play. When the threats become more severe, somebody has to tank the damage they are putting out. Usually the meat grinder of getting to tier 3 has weeded out weaker characters (like your sub 30 hp Wizard friend) and taught good teamwork and tactical playstyle.

May your dice be kind!

Ahhhhhh no.
No no no.
It's for this reason the DM has actively expressed how much he wishes I were a Rogue because, and I quote, "All anyone else wants to do as a Rogue is still stuff. You'd look for traps and scout effectively" and x, y, z.

But I'm flexible. It's one of my perks.

[Christew]

I'm not entirely sure his is correct now that I think about it. CAN you have a Wizard 16 DC at level 7 with point-buy? As a Drow?
His previous character was a higher-leveled Cleric so I wonder if he has his DC wrong. Because mine's 17 and I'm maxed on Intelligence and at level 10. He should be down a Proficiency point and I don't think he should've been capable of having maxed Intelligence yet so his should be 2 lower than mine.
No, you definitely can't. Spell save DC is 8 + proficiency + modifier. Proficiency at level 7 is +3. Drow with point buy could only have a max INT of 17 (15 at level 1 +2 ASI at level 4) for a +3 modifier. 8 + 3 + 3 = 14. I was assuming rolled stats or item bonuses were at play. Sounds like your DM should go over this player's sheet. He/she should probably have more hp and less INT.


I won't lie the Water Sphere is 50% an insurance against the party of casters that are, at best, chaotic neutral. With some members actively being evil.
That said ah the mythical Treantmonk guide. I suppose I'll take a look there after all. I remember disagreeing with some of his calls when someone was reposting his videos here and discussing his spell choices but perhaps the overall guide goes more in-depth or features changed ratings.
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend taking everything he says as gospel, but it does give a decent analysis of every Wizard spell based on a particularly effective playstyle. Even if you ignore his color rankings, reading the analyses will let you pick and choose higher level spells that will work for what you want your character to be.


Ahhhhhh no.
No no no.
It's for this reason the DM has actively expressed how much he wishes I were a Rogue because, and I quote, "All anyone else wants to do as a Rogue is still stuff. You'd look for traps and scout effectively" and x, y, z.

But I'm flexible. It's one of my perks.
Not sure I understand your reaction here. Are you saying that your group has not learned team combat tactics or that you are against the notion of team combat tactics?

Weird for a DM to be telling you what to play, though a character that can hide and sneak attack would add some diversity and versatility to your very caster heavy party. Honestly I'd say your lack of frontliners is the more pressing issue given that a single fighter can only tank so many enemies. Either way, 5e is a very forgiving system that essentially belies the notion of a "balanced" party, though that does assume intelligent builds at higher tier play.

[SociopathFriend]

No, you definitely can't. Spell save DC is 8 + proficiency + modifier. Proficiency at level 7 is +3. Drow with point buy could only have a max INT of 17 (15 at level 1 +2 ASI at level 4) for a +3 modifier. 8 + 3 + 3 = 14. I was assuming rolled stats or item bonuses were at play. Sounds like your DM should go over this player's sheet. He/she should probably have more hp and less INT.

Oh no he probably has the right scores- he just very likely forgot to change his DC. Prior to his death he was a 20 Con Hill Dwarf Life Cleric near my own level but with 18 Wisdom.




Not sure I understand your reaction here. Are you saying that your group has not learned team combat tactics or that you are against the notion of team combat tactics?

Weird for a DM to be telling you what to play, though a character that can hide and sneak attack would add some diversity and versatility to your very caster heavy party. Honestly I'd say your lack of frontliners is the more pressing issue given that a single fighter can only tank so many enemies. Either way, 5e is a very forgiving system that essentially belies the notion of a "balanced" party, though that does assume intelligent builds at higher tier play.

The former. The group varies significantly on a per-encounter basis on how well everyone works together and is suitably tactical.
Just last session I pointed out going Prone offers Disadvantage on ranged attack rolls. Blew their minds.

To be clear the DM did not tell me what to play- I only informed him if I died my next character might be a Rogue. That's what prompted the conversation of, "I would love to see you as a Rogue- you'll do more than steal from people."

Our group has a history of poor Rogues- which is why we don't have one. They keep dying.

[SociopathFriend]

Ah, he got DM approval to go past 15 Intelligence at the start. It's why most of his stats are 10 or lower barring I think Wisdom.


So that mystery is solved.

Obr question is whether in a few levels if I could take resilient Constitution do you gain Proficiency in Constitution saving throws or whether I should take tough and just get more HP.

[Christew]

Ah, he got DM approval to go past 15 Intelligence at the start. It's why most of his stats are 10 or lower barring I think Wisdom.


So that mystery is solved.

Obr question is whether in a few levels if I could take resilient Constitution do you gain Proficiency in Constitution saving throws or whether I should take tough and just get more HP.

Fair enough. That explains things.

In general, Resilient (CON) is the way to go though this depends on your build. If you have an odd CON stat, it will give you more HP and proficiency in CON saves is great for caster concentration. The handful of extra HP from Toughness is usually not worth it since saves and concentration tend to be more game changing at higher tiers. That said, if you already have Warcaster then Resilient can be a bit redundant.

[SociopathFriend]

Fair enough. That explains things.

In general, Resilient (CON) is the way to go though this depends on your build. If you have an odd CON stat, it will give you more HP and proficiency in CON saves is great for caster concentration. The handful of extra HP from Toughness is usually not worth it since saves and concentration tend to be more game changing at higher tiers. That said, if you already have Warcaster then Resilient can be a bit redundant.

I'm in an odd place where my DM is hit and miss with what rules he enforces with magic.
We have, for example, never followed the rule where if you cast a Spell as a Bonus Action you can't cast anything but a Cantrip as your Action.
Likewise he is fine with your Arcane Focus or Holy Symbol being attached to a Shield or Weapon so you won't need a free hand for spells.

This makes certain feats worth less than they're supposed to be.
The thing about Resilient is if I take it- I won't gain any HP because my Amulet of Health puts my Con higher than the bump will give me. It'd be basically a feat only for the Con Proficiency.

[Christew]

In that case you just have to balance 20ish HP (which can often be knocked off with a single hit at higher levels) vs better CON saves/concentration (which would include maintaining buffs that can probably net you more than the HP). No real wrong answer.