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View Full Version : Alignment, lawbreaking, and Waterdeep.



GuestEleven
2020-03-05, 04:37 PM
Sorry if this ends up being a long winded post. Recently in my current campaign set in Faerūn my players have gotten pretty wild and I'm looking to maybe set things right, or at least implement their wrongdoings as a narrative device. I'll do my best to keep things short and concise. I'd like to note that a lot of my players have issue maintaining character and often their own personalities bleed heavily into their character actions. It is something we've been slowly trying to work on.

So the party started off in Daggerford and almost immediately decided that they were going to form an adventuring company. Most of the party ranged from various types of good to lawful neutral. One of my first big plot hooks was when only one of the merchants of the expected merchant caravan makes it to town due to an ambush near Dragonspear Castle. It was reported that some of the caravan members were killed on the spot and the rest were captured. Party takes the tremendous task of rescuing the captured prisoners and retrieving the stolen goods for the town.

This is where the first break in character happens. The one merchant who made it through the ambush offers to cut a deal with the party where he pays them for the goods and they report them lost to the town. The NG cleric of Helm was the first to accept the deal which was shocking. Following this when they get to Dragonspear Castle and had freed a room full of prisoners one of the rescuees was not intent on staying put while the party cleared the rest of the dungeon. So when the npc runs off the neutral good cleric casts Guiding Bolt, 'killing him for his own good'.

After they return to town and stash the reclaimed goods for later the LN monk that worshipped Mystra visited a local wizard seeking more knowledge about her. The wizard openly shared his distaste for Mystra, so the monk and the party's NG sorcerer murder him in his own home for it. They rolled pretty highly to smooth it over with the guard and pretty much immediately left town.

Finally they arrive at Waterdeep. I'll cut the plot out so this doesn't get too convoluted. After a series of events the party kidnapped a noble they suspected of being having knowledge of an assassin they were hunting, they knew him to be a bit of a scumbag and trying to get back into the slave trade for which his house was once exiled for due to slavery being illegal in Waterdeep. Keep in mind that they assaulted him, kidnapped him, and threatened his life multiple times on a hunch with no substantial proof. They ended up being right though. They kept him in their care until they had no use for his information. At this point a player coerced him into signing over his home and assets to the PC. The players had just found an infernal puzzlebox that had important information inside. It requires a DC 30 investigation check to open, and on a failure they have to make a DC 18 will save or take 12d6 psychic damage. After a few failed attempts to open it a player tossed it to the noble and told him that they'd let him go free if he managed to open the box. I'm sure you all can guess what became of the noble.

I thought surely they were just going to dump his body and wash their hands of it, but no. Apparently they expect to turn him in and collect a reward. To me it sounds like absolute insanity. From where I'm standing this looks like they're responsible for what is essentially the death of a noble. Their adventuring company is just starting to take off, I was thinking this would be the best/worst time for their past to catch up with them. But is it unreasonable for me to do so? I already kinda set a precedent for allowing their outrageous behavior to go unabated so would it be right for my to put my foot down now?

TL;DR I have allowed players to act way off alignment and reason, is it right for me to lay down the law after allowing it to continue for so long?

JNAProductions
2020-03-05, 04:40 PM
Alignment is descriptive, not prosciptive.

If you feel they're acting out of alignment, ask them to change their alignments, don't ask them to change their actions.

GuestEleven
2020-03-05, 04:48 PM
Alignment is descriptive, not prosciptive.

If you feel they're acting out of alignment, ask them to change their alignments, don't ask them to change their actions.

That's a pretty solid point.

GuestEleven
2020-03-05, 05:31 PM
In retrospect I realize that I wasn't on the mark of what I wanted to convey. Bluntly speaking my players are quite argumentative, and I anticipate meeting opposition should things turn sour when they go to collect the 'reward' for the death of the noble they kidnapped that happened to turn out to be a not so grear guy. What I'm really seeking is affirmation that by the Waterdeep code legal they are criminals. I have no issues directly with what they've been doing aside of it being outside their alignment. I'd like to be sure I'm right before giving my players a hash sentence and then arguing about it at the table.

Clistenes
2020-03-05, 08:29 PM
Shouldn't Helm be pissed? At least the cleric should receive some form of punishment...

ZamielVanWeber
2020-03-05, 09:02 PM
Shouldn't Helm be pissed? At least the cleric should receive some form of punishment...

As a LN god Helm is going to be ticked. I am surprised he takes NG servants, but importantly this is so inappropriate he may send a messenger warning his servant not to do it again.

Zarrgon
2020-03-05, 10:48 PM
TL;DR I have allowed players to act way off alignment and reason, is it right for me to lay down the law after allowing it to continue for so long?

Sure, just law down the right law.

Your characters are acting evil, so why not just tempt them and turn them evil.

Bane or Malar could swoop in or send a servant to the monk and sorcerer and offer for them to turn to the dark side. For the Helm cleric, have him do the crisis of faith: Helm shows up and does the ''do you really follow me?" speech. If the player is up to it, go ahead and switch gods If they really want to stay with the ''helm class'' just do a quick switch of ''you now worship Dark Helmet, Helms dark and evil brother".

Also, it seems like you make your foes for the players to hate....you might not want to do that as much.

atanamis
2020-03-05, 11:02 PM
You need to think about what kind of game you want to run, and what kind of game your players want to play. If you and they are all happy running around as murder hobos, and calling that "good", then that's the kind of game you run for them. Some players just want to operate in a world where they can do whatever they want without consequences, and some game masters are happy to do that for them. It is a game, and as long as nobody at the table is being hurt or offended that's fine. There is no "right" way to run a game. The rules exist to create a framework in which you and your friends can have fun.

So if you want to have the world clamp down on your players, the key thing to determine is whether they will have fun with that. You aren't trying to punish your players, that's not your role as their friend. What you are trying to do is create a fun playspace for them to operate in, and one which is fun for you as well. If you have been letting them run wild, you might want to mention to them that Waterdeep isn't LIKE the small towns they are used to. This is a place where if you have the right connections you can get away with murder, but if you don't you can be arrested even if you are a powerful sorcerer. Give them an opportunity to flee Waterdeep and stay ahead of their reputation if they want, or know that if they stay they will at least need to be smarter in their crimes.

Personally, I would LOVE to play a game where the consequences of our past actions caught up with us, and we needed to decide who to buy off / beg mercy from in order to continue operating. But other players don't want to deal with any of that. You might have a mix in your player group. Before you clamp down on their characters and "pass sentence", you do need to understand whether doing so will be fun for your players or just piss them off. Yes, under the rules of the game and world as designed they are in violation of Waterdeep policies. The clieric would have a god who is pissed, and might communicate that in any number of ways. You could spin these actions into a whole campaign of trying to repent of their sins or bribe / manipulate / blackmail their way out.

Watch any number of criminal band of buddies shows for inspiration. They've taken a set of steps that are dangerously short sighted in most fictional worlds, and if playing that out will be fun for you and your players then do it! But again, keep in mind that this is a game you and your friends are playing for fun. If you expect arguments and pushback (and your friends aren't the type who ENJOY arguments), then maybe just get used to the fact that your world is one where a crew of murder hobos walk around committing heinous acts that never seem to catch up with them (and there is a lot of popular fiction of this type too!)

Satinavian
2020-03-06, 02:24 AM
So...

A local noble suddenly vanishes out of town (unclear whether anyone has seen the PCs do that) and they come later with his corpse to the authorities, proudly claim they caught and killed him. And it just so happens that they have documents that he turns all his wealth over to them, with no prior relationship whatsoever.

I would have the authorities imprison, interrogate and kill them. Mobilize superior force depending on the perceived power of this mercenary group to do so without losses. Mabe if someone can convincingly shift blame to the others he might survive.

I have done similar things in the past and never had one of my groups complain about it.



But the thing is, my players would mostly expect such a response and they tend to not do such idiotic things. It is obviously not the kind of game your players are expecting and have played so far. So it might not be the best idea for you to do so. Ot would probably be a better idea to talk OT with them about what kind of game your table should be playing.



However am not a fan of things catching up that have been successfully conceiled. This is all about the world reacting to what the players do, not the world punishing amoral behavior. If you just don't like your players playing sociopathic killers, that is another OT discussion topic. You are not obliged to GM for every kind of fantasy.

icefractal
2020-03-06, 04:23 AM
If they do turn him in "for the bounty" then by all means arrest the hell out of them. Between the "kidnapping and executing a noble who was (at that time) in good standing", and the "blatantly trying to steal all his property after killing him", the best case is they get told to leave and never return (if the situation is complex and/or the guard doesn't feel like taking them on).

However, unless all the PCs are very stupid or from an extremely alien society, you should let them know that their characters would know how bad an idea this is. Their crimes catching up on them could be fun (how well did they cover their tracks?) . Their crimes catching up because of actions that make no sense IC doesn't seem as great.

GuestEleven
2020-03-07, 09:24 PM
If they do turn him in "for the bounty" then by all means arrest the hell out of them. Between the "kidnapping and executing a noble who was (at that time) in good standing", and the "blatantly trying to steal all his property after killing him", the best case is they get told to leave and never return (if the situation is complex and/or the guard doesn't feel like taking them on).

However, unless all the PCs are very stupid or from an extremely alien society, you should let them know that their characters would know how bad an idea this is. Their crimes catching up on them could be fun (how well did they cover their tracks?) . Their crimes catching up because of actions that make no sense IC doesn't seem as great.

They did not cover their tracks at all. I already decided that the family of the wizard they murdered in Daggerford is wealthy and seeking revenge.

Thanks for all the great feedback everyone.

Waterdeep Merch
2020-03-07, 10:41 PM
We have laws here in Waterdeep. Murder of a noble is punishable by death. They'll live just long enough for the magisters to make a big deal out of executing them.

Theft and magical coercion isn't looked upon too kindly either.

GrayDeath
2020-03-15, 11:55 AM
Well, that sounds like a delightfully Evil group.

Kust let them face the music (Alignment and World reaction wise), if Iw as playing such characters I would want that to happen, and see if they react to it at all.

If they dont, this is simply how they want to paly, nothing bad to it.

If they bitch and complain, you might have a theme Disconnect in your group. THen it is time to make sure youa re all on the same page.