Teleport Through Time and the Editions

[Ruethgar]

So, Teleport Through Time is a 9th level spell that let's you, shocker, teleport through time! But I was thinking about the different editions of D&D, particularly the justifications of the changes as they relate to the Forgotten Realms lore. If you ported back to when Mystryl was alive, could you learn to use 10th level and higher spells and would you be able to cast spells more freely instead of using the system Mystra enforced? Or would you basically be in your own temporal bubble still connected to the future as it relates to god's sway over you? Similarly, what if you were from a later time when Orcus or Asmodeous were deific and went back to when they weren't, as a cleric could you still call on them to grant spells from the future?

[OrbanSirgen]

1. Yes, as long as you don't go forward in time to a point when the laws of magic were tightened...

2. Powerful fiends such as Orcus and Asmodeus were able to grant spells even before they were deified, so yes...

[emulord]

My headcanon is that anyone who tries to research / use this spell gets smited by Chronus and Hounds of Tindalos

[Zarrgon]

1.Yes. Maybe. Official Lore wise Mystra did not ban 10th level spells, as much as she simply changed the way magic worked. Once you could cast 10th level spells, and now you can't and must use Epic Magic. So even if you did learn it, you could not take it back to the future.

It's also likely, lore wise, the Mystra or her followers would stop the character....and obliterate them. Or maybe something worse.

2.Most time travel D&D rules say that if you travel back in time before your god existed, you loose all your magic. However, it is possible that another similar god might grant your magic.

The Forgotten Realms does have specific Time Travel Laws, found in the Arcane Age products and the Chronomancer book.

[Ruethgar]

My headcanon is that anyone who tries to research / use this spell gets smited by Chronus and Hounds of Tindalos

There was actually a 3rd part book that added time magi. Basically a wizard, but the higher level and longer duration of effect for a spell you used, the more likely something strongly resembling an inevitable would come and kill you. So as an example, porting through time as an elf and never porting back would pretty much guarantee you were getting killed by time police.

[Thurbane]

Link (https://web.archive.org/web/20160123065452/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) for reference.

[Silly Name]

So, one interesting pont about TTT is that it doesn't provide ways to return to your starting point in time. Thus going back to a time where magic worked differently is not problematic for beings who care about upholding Universal Laws and Order. Of course, they may still hound you for messing with time, but as long as you lay low and don't disturb historical events you're likely to be ok.

I would assume that any spellcaster who travelled back to those times when magic worked differently would have to either learn magic again from the basics if the changes are too radical, or simply starts behaving according to the Old Rules immediately. In any case, everyone must abide to the Rules of Magic of the time they find themselves in.

Sorcerers and sorcerer-like casters don't risk having to get back their magic the hard way, since to them it's an innate part of their being. They must be careful to not mess up their ancestry, though: while the Timeline may do its best to avoid Grandfather Paradoxes, you can't be sure you won't nullify what caused magic to awaken in you.

Warlocks automatically lose access to all their magical power if they travel to a time before they made their deals with their patron.

Clerics (and other casters who derive spells from godly beings) can still cast spells as long as their god is alive and has the same portfolio, but obviously they cast differently. Otherwise, they must find another deity to grant them powers. Clerics who worship ideals don't have such worries, and the same goes for druids.

Bards have a 75% chance to go completely mad or be erased from existance if they return to the times of AD&D, as the process necessary to become a bard back then enters into conflict with them being bards from chargen and not having the proper requisites to classify as bards in this period.

[ThanatosZero]

Regarding Mystra in AD&D 2e.
One could still cast 10th level spells, but they require permission from either Azuth or Mystra herself. Also Mystra's current Magister can cast 10th level spells without permission, but they will cease being the Magister when done so.

Regarding time travel to older editions I wonder what would happen with a Wizard 5/ Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 5 PC.

Hit points? 5d4 + 5d6 + (10x3) ?
ThAC0? 20 - 1 - 10 - 5 = 4 ?

[Saintheart]

2.Most time travel D&D rules say that if you travel back in time before your god existed, you loose all your magic. However, it is possible that another similar god might grant your magic.

Wouldn't the nature of portfolios/domains mean that spells granted by one god automatically slip over to another's when the portfolio or domain changes owner?

[SimonMoon6]

Regarding time travel to older editions I wonder what would happen with a Wizard 5/ Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 5 PC.

Hit points? 5d4 + 5d6 + (10x3) ?
ThAC0? 20 - 1 - 10 - 5 = 4 ?

And don't forget that it would depend on the race.

A human would have to use the "dual classing" rules, where they stopped being one class (forever) and started being another class.

Anybody else gets to use the "multi classing" rules, where they get to be all of their classes all at the same time, but those classes have maximum level limits (all classes other than "thief" anyway).

[Quertus]

It's also likely, lore wise, the Mystra or her followers would stop the character....and obliterate them. Or maybe something worse.

And... why would they do so?

Of course, FR isn't the only world in the D&D multiverse, so one could always bypass them by being outside their domain.

[unseenmage]

This is a conversation I've had IRL with my group.

Our take was which edition was more powerful? 3rd wins because player options in 3rd are grotesquely overpowered and plentiful (I'm looking at you epic spells!)

Theoretically one could craft a spell or item that allowed their edition's magic to persist through such edition hopping time travel.

What of edition specific effects?

What would your Craft Contingent Spell: Energy Transformation Field: Wish to create a Craft Contingent Spell: Shapechange into a Zodar even DO way back in 1E or 2E era?

I'm not sure the official conversion guides cover cheese. :smallsmile:

You wind up in a similar situation when jumping campaign settings.
Can your 3.x golem be improved using PF rules?
Would those improvements persist when you return?
Will your PF golem get Banishment-ed back to Golarion from Faerun?

[Zombimode]

Thats a rather confused question. The rules are just an descriptive layer between the narrative and the player. A language to describe objects and events in the narrative, and a set of rules to adjucate interactions between these objects and events.

Thus, if you are in 3.5 game and use TTT to travel back to a point in time before the Fall of Netheril, you proceed with the game using the 3.5 language. Your wizard may get the abilitiy to cast spells of levels higher then 9 - your GM will tell you how this ability will be translated under 3.5 rules.

[tiercel]

I can’t help but think that if we are playing a game where edition changes, by canon, correspond to periods of the campaign’s history, that teleporting through time would cause me as a DM to do my very best “are you sure?” intonation as I dig for my battered 2e AD&D PHB with one hand and proffer three six-sided dice with the other....

[ThanatosZero]

And don't forget that it would depend on the race.

A human would have to use the "dual classing" rules, where they stopped being one class (forever) and started being another class.

Anybody else gets to use the "multi classing" rules, where they get to be all of their classes all at the same time, but those classes have maximum level limits (all classes other than "thief" anyway).

Naturally yes, but then again, as a human they may not have high enough ability stats for to legalise the dual class from wizard to fighter.

In this regard, it might be better to homebrew a 2.5e to keep 2e with 3.0-5e material intact.

As for maximum level limits for other races, it is a dumb rule.

Also now to think about it, how could elven highmages even exist with that rule in place, as they were the ones who originally teached "True Dweomer/Epic Magic" from the golden scrolls created by the sarrukh?
The netherise mages were lazy, as they opted to put them on higher spellslots instead.

[Quertus]

I can’t help but think that if we are playing a game where edition changes, by canon, correspond to periods of the campaign’s history, that teleporting through time would cause me as a DM to do my very best “are you sure?” intonation as I dig for my battered 2e AD&D PHB with one hand and proffer three six-sided dice with the other....

I never had to reroll my stats - or all the rolls on the random items tables - just because I brought my character from Bob's table to Mike's table. And there's lots of reasons a 2e GM might consider a character be unacceptable, but "the whole party is out of balance with the party"? That sounds beyond even my crazy GM stories. So this seems kinda silly.

On the other hand, I would love to see the looks on players' faces if you removed all the class features that they don't get in 2e - like all those spells that they learned through automatic spell acquisition. So Wizards are limited to just spells that they found/researched, and Sorcerers are Wizards with no spells whatsoever.


Naturally yes, but then again, as a human they may not have high enough ability stats for to legalise the dual class from wizard to fighter.

In this regard, it might be better to homebrew a 2.5e to keep 2e with 3.0-5e material intact.

As for maximum level limits for other races, it is a dumb rule.

Also now to think about it, how could elven highmages even exist with that rule in place, as they were the ones who originally teached "True Dweomer/Epic Magic" from the golden scrolls created by the sarrukh?
The netherise mages were lazy, as they opted to put them on higher spellslots instead.

Level limits were, iirc, not limitations of the race's potential, but of their desire to interact with others. So, after the level cap, they go back to their xenophobic homeland, and level up through watching racist propaganda.

Although it brings up a good point: I'm not sure if I ever actually played 2e by RAW. Usually, there was a list of house rules - the removal of racial level limits being one of the most common. So, traveling back in time, the PCs should find that the rules are more like guidelines?

But, yeah, many Multiclass characters suddenly implode under their own impossibility (unless they travel back to a world and time that houseruled human duel class stat requirements away).


This is a conversation I've had IRL with my group.

Our take was which edition was more powerful? 3rd wins because player options in 3rd are grotesquely overpowered and plentiful (I'm looking at you epic spells!)

Theoretically one could craft a spell or item that allowed their edition's magic to persist through such edition hopping time travel.

What of edition specific effects?

What would your Craft Contingent Spell: Energy Transformation Field: Wish to create a Craft Contingent Spell: Shapechange into a Zodar even DO way back in 1E or 2E era?

I'm not sure the official conversion guides cover cheese. :smallsmile:

You wind up in a similar situation when jumping campaign settings.
Can your 3.x golem be improved using PF rules?
Would those improvements persist when you return?
Will your PF golem get Banishment-ed back to Golarion from Faerun?

Really? You'd take Epic Spells over True Dwoemers? I'm not sure 3e actually wins that one.

And, yes, it sounds like traveling through time involves all the fun of changing systems.

[OrbanSirgen]

"For the last time, I am a HALFLING, not a HOBBIT!"

[Zarrgon]

And... why would they do so?

Of course, FR isn't the only world in the D&D multiverse, so one could always bypass them by being outside their domain.

In the Lore of FR Mystra is very protective of both magic and time. From little things like moving a rock or breaking a sigil right up to just out right obliteration.

[Ruethgar]

In the Lore of FR Mystra is very protective of both magic and time. From little things like moving a rock or breaking a sigil right up to just out right obliteration.

Theoretically if you TTT while outside a crystal sphere she can't do anything about it and potentially can't even sense it but that ability isn't planar bound so she probably could and then would Choose someone to go there for her, find out wtf and Alter Reality you out of existence. I think there was some tower that gods couldn't use their SDAs around and would truly die next to? Not sure how that would work with future sight and the godess of magic undoubtedly knowing about that tower and doing the same thing when she sees 'hey, timeline's messed up from this point onward but I can't see it. Vecna, you have something to do with this? No? Ok, Dozen Chosen of Mystra to the tower!'

[Quertus]

Given how often Mystra dies (to fairly weak beings compared to truly optimized Playground characters), and how often the timeline gets messed up in other settings without Mystra getting involved, I think I'll go with "not really a concern".

[unseenmage]

Given how often Mystra dies (to fairly weak beings compared to truly optimized Playground characters), and how often the timeline gets messed up in other settings without Mystra getting involved, I think I'll go with "not really a concern".

Agreed.

Heck, it's likely Mystra or (insert deity if affected stuff here) would be recruiting a properly powerful character to help set things to rights so long as their goals and priorities aligned.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

On the other hand, I would love to see the looks on players' faces if you removed all the class features that they don't get in 2e - like all those spells that they learned through automatic spell acquisition. So Wizards are limited to just spells that they found/researched, and Sorcerers are Wizards with no spells whatsoever.

Magic-users did, in fact, learn spells automatically in AD&D, despite the memes to the contrary:


Naturally, magic-user player characters will do their utmost to acquire books of spells and scrolls in order to complete their own spell books. To those acquired, the magic-user will add 1 (and ONLY 1) spell when he or she actually gains an experience level (q.v.) .

First, whenever a character attains a new level, allow the player one new spell immediately. You can choose this spell, let the player choose it, or select it randomly.

So while you could debatably go through the spellbook and change or remove half the spells learned at level-up, the rule is close enough by analogy to leave things alone. But I see no problem with telling sorcerers that, alas, their class doesn't exist except as a Magic-User kit in Al-Qadim, so have fun respeccing. :smallamused:


In the Lore of FR Mystra is very protective of both magic and time. From little things like moving a rock or breaking a sigil right up to just out right obliteration.

Given how often Mystra dies (to fairly weak beings compared to truly optimized Playground characters), and how often the timeline gets messed up in other settings without Mystra getting involved, I think I'll go with "not really a concern".

Sorry to rant, but this is a pet peeve of mine: Mystra does not die "often" to "fairly weak beings." She's died exactly three times in the entire multiple-million-year history of Toril:

Mystryl: Karsus (the single most power-mad archmage), of the Empire of Netheril (a nation full of power-hungry archmages) which had the most advanced understanding of magic in Torillian history (potentially tied with Imaskar, granted), researched the most powerful spell in the history of magic--over the course of a decade and using up many priceless and irreplaceable components to do so--and then cast it at just the wrong moment when Mystryl happened to be working on a very delicate operation to repair the Weave and Karsus, lacking the knowledge to do that safely, lost control and Mystryl sacrificed herself to stop something worse from happening.
Mystra 1: Ao (an overdeity previously not known to exist) demoted all the gods to mortalhood, Mystra was immediately attacked, captured, and tortured by Bane (a sworn enemy), then she effectively committed suicide-by-attempted-deicide.
Mystra 2: WotC mandated that Mystra die again for metagame reasons, so she was killed in a way that is utterly implausible and makes no in-setting sense, and no amount of godly power can counter a publisher's decrees.
All are completely unprecedented, completely un-prepareable-for events (and she immediately rewrote the laws of reality to stop the first one from ever happening again) and required the direct intervention of the most powerful gods in the setting to happen (Mystryl herself, Ao, and Plot Device, respectively), so portraying Mystra as a wimpy god who keeps dying to things is entirely unfair.

[StevenC21]

Let's compare the number of times Mystra has died, to other gods:

Mystra: 3

Most other gods: 0

Doesn't matter if the "reasons" were good. No other gods got immediately ganked by their archrivals except Big Myst.

QED

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Doesn't matter if the "reasons" were good. No other gods got immediately ganked by their archrivals except Big Myst.

...except, y'know, Bane, God of Tyranny, who was a god for less than 2,000 years before he got ganked by Torm, God of Duty and Paladins, during the Time of Troubles, which Bane kicked off with his own poor decision-making.

Or Bhaal, Lord of Murder, who died when Cyric, er, murdered him with Godsbane--the sword which was an avatar of Mask who, himself, was killed by Shar.

Or Aoskar, God of Portals, who tried to go up against the Lady of Pain and went kersplat, because, really, who didn't see that coming?

Or Ibrandul, God of Darkness, who was killed and impersonated by Shar, Bigger Badder Goddess of Darkness, who'd wanted to nab his portfolio for a while.

And those are just a handful of dead gods, and only those active in the Realms who were killed by someone you could consider an archrival, and not including all the ones who silently died for reasons unknown in the 3e->4e->5e cluster fudge. Sure, many gods avoid being killed, but gods dying--and doing so in ways that don't make them look all that impressive--is hardly uncommon. If anything, the fact that so many gods and mortals alike have been gunning for Mystra since the beginning of the world and she's only died twice (for real), under extenuating circumstances and while the majority of her power was invested elsewhere, and then resurrected herself instantly or within a tenday or two under her own power is pretty impressive.

[Saintheart]

Mystra 2: WotC mandated that Mystra die again for metagame reasons, so she was killed in a way that is utterly implausible and makes no in-setting sense, and no amount of godly power can counter a publisher's decrees.[/list]

She's always Ariel "Midnight" Manx to me, dammit!

Me, I found the circumstances of her resurrection utterly un-bearable.

[Quertus]

If anything, the fact that so many gods and mortals alike have been gunning for Mystra since the beginning of the world and she's only died twice (for real), under extenuating circumstances and while the majority of her power was invested elsewhere, and then resurrected herself instantly or within a tenday or two under her own power is pretty impressive.

I suppose I can see how that could and maybe was supposed to come off as impressive.

That's just not the impression I got. I just remember Mystra as this doubly-lame goddess, who, even with authorial fiat, still dies a lot. She needs to be added to TV tropes… being Worfed? alongside Justice League Superman.


Magic-users did, in fact, learn spells automatically in AD&D, despite the memes to the contrary:


So while you could debatably go through the spellbook and change or remove half the spells learned at level-up, the rule is close enough by analogy to leave things alone.

Say what?!

*Grabs 2e DMG*

*Reads*

OK, so, in my 2e DMG, it's on p. 41, and it's an optional rule, used at (afaict) 0 tables I've ever played at.

That said, the two techniques that I have used - learning spells written by other Wizards (including spellbooks and scrolls), and spell research - which were available (again, afaict) at every table I played at, are also optional rules.

So, I can only conclude that it would be completely valid to let them keep their spells (or fewer spells, as you pointed out), *or* to remove their spells, depending on whether or not the world/time to which they teleported supported automatic spell learning.


But I see no problem with telling sorcerers that, alas, their class doesn't exist except as a Magic-User kit in Al-Qadim, so have fun respeccing. :smallamused:

At least, unlike some other characters, they actually exist.


Sorry to rant, but this is a pet peeve of mine: Mystra does not die "often" to "fairly weak beings." She's died exactly three times in the entire multiple-million-year history of Toril:

She's died 3 times to my zero so far. I've been alive (and actively playing) through all of her deaths. She sounds lame.

If they keep publishing stuff for FR for a few hundred years, and she doesn't die again for several centuries? Then she might sound less lame then. If she can manage to survive an edition change¹ or three? She might sound less lame then.

As it stands, I picture her with a permanent "L" branded on her forehead to symbolize just how lame she is.

¹ Did she survive 4e to 5e? Every transition I've been actively around for, she's died. So, if someone publishes a good 6e, and I play it through until 7e, and Mystra survives the edition change? And keeps surviving through to 8th & 9th edition D&D? Then she might have lived down her deaths, and get to remove that "L".

[Buufreak]

To my knowledge, the only one to die in 4e was orcus, bahamut, tiamat, io, nerull, and vecna (again). Which all this talk about gods dying, meanwhile vecna has books (emphasis on the plural) about killing him over and over.

Also, if this one counts at all, acererak ascends to godhood by siphoning the remnants of other dead gods floating in wherever the hell it is their corpses are, just to be killed (again).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

She's died 3 times to my zero so far. I've been alive (and actively playing) through all of her deaths. She sounds lame.

I mean, she's the physical incarnation of the laws of physics in Realmspace. When the laws of physics dramatically change, you gotta expect that to be the cause of or the result of something pretty serious happening to Mystra.

My point/pet peeve is basically that many gods in many settings have died for many reasons, yet everyone gives Mystra the most grief when she's had the least-lame deaths and the longest tenure as an active deity, and is the only one whose deaths are due to out-of-setting reasons rather than in-universe stupidity/shortsightedness/foibles/etc. No one ever laughs at Bhaal or Myrkul for being gods of murder and death who didn't see their own deaths coming, or Amaunator for being the only Netherese god to die to lack of worship instead of surviving into the modern day, and so on--and yeah, the average non-Realms fan who didn't play 4e or NWN might not know Amaunator or remember how Bhaal died off the top of their head, but even Realms fans seem to hate on Mystra when they should know better.

(Sorry. I'm running a FR campaign for a party that includes some huge Mystra-haters at the moment, and it's getting a little old.)


¹ Did she survive 4e to 5e? Every transition I've been actively around for, she's died.

Yep, she's back, and with just as little reason and explanation for her resurrection in 5e as for her death in 4e.


Say what?!

*Grabs 2e DMG*

*Reads*

OK, so, in my 2e DMG, it's on p. 41, and it's an optional rule, used at (afaict) 0 tables I've ever played at.

I have the Revised version from the 1995 printing, maybe that's the difference. Though I don't see why they'd go from default in 1e to optional in 2e to default again in 2e Revised; I'd thought 2e content was kept word-for-word the same in Revised with mostly additions and organizational changes. That said, having gone straight from 1e to 2eR, I've never played in a group that didn't use that rule.

[Ruethgar]

That's just not the impression I got. I just remember Mystra as this doubly-lame goddess, who, even with authorial fiat, still dies a lot. She needs to be added to TV tropes… being Worfed? alongside Justice League Superman.


My immediate thought was Jean Grey, can contain and sometimes control power enough to devour the stars themselves. Dies. A lot.

[Quertus]

Imagine if Superman died at the beginning of each episode of Justice League (or really early on in their movie franchise). Sure, he's so powerful, he can just bring himself back, but… wouldn't the all-powerful Superman still look lame for dieing like Kenny? :smallconfused:

That's just the impression Mystra always gave me.

And, if that's the impression that so many people have been left with, I think that it would make more sense to blame the writers than the fans. If the writers wanted Mystra to be cool, and that's not what so many people take away, then…

Actually, part of the problem is that Mystra is the special-est snowflake to ever fall from special snowflake heaven, ever. She, and everything she touches, seems to blatantly ignore the rules. Her Chosen, her Initiates, and her herself? I challenge anyone to describe an officially published more special snowflake, with more "those rules are for other people", spread through things that they touch (bonus points for also bearing their name) than Mystra. And I suspect that, for me, at least, that predispositions me to evaluate her Lameness quotient in the worst possible light.

That's the best I can do on explaining why maybe, instead of "FR fans should know better", maybe the fans are on to something.

[unseenmage]

...

... I challenge anyone to describe an officially published more special snowflake, with more "those rules are for other people", spread through things that they touch (bonus points for also bearing their name) than Mystra. ...

...

The Lady of Pain.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Imagine if Superman died at the beginning of each episode of Justice League (or really early on in their movie franchise). Sure, he's so powerful, he can just bring himself back, but… wouldn't the all-powerful Superman still look lame for dieing like Kenny? :smallconfused:

Considering he's died at least 15 times in various incarnations (https://screenrant.com/times-superman-has-died-best-fake-deaths/), you tell me. :smallamused:


Actually, part of the problem is that Mystra is the special-est snowflake to ever fall from special snowflake heaven, ever. She, and everything she touches, seems to blatantly ignore the rules. Her Chosen, her Initiates, and her herself? I challenge anyone to describe an officially published more special snowflake, with more "those rules are for other people", spread through things that they touch (bonus points for also bearing their name) than Mystra. And I suspect that, for me, at least, that predispositions me to evaluate her Lameness quotient in the worst possible light.

That's the best I can do on explaining why maybe, instead of "FR fans should know better", maybe the fans are on to something.

Yeah, not liking the special-snowflake-ness is fair; the late-3e splatbooks and the 3e- and 4e-era novels definitely neglected material on the other deities and their worshipers in favor of more stuff about Mystra.

But that special-snowflake-ness all comes from the fact that she was, and was always intended to be, the closest things the Realms have to an overdeity before they retconned in Ao during the Time of Troubles. In Ed Greenwood's original version she was basically a "three omnis" god (omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent)...though she originally had Lurue's name and unicorn form and TSR had him swap them in the published version so the overgoddess would appear human for their human-centric setting. In her first introduction to non-Realms players in Dragon #54, she's described as "the higher force" on Toril and the "manifestation of the Cosmic Balance" that regulates all of magic and reality. And when the FR creation myth was laid out in the Gray Box and later books, she was said to have been created out of the majority of the power of Selûne and Shar (the two creator goddesses, who each had enough power left over after that to still be among the most powerful deities on Toril) and even after investing the lion's share of her power in Chosen and all sorts of other servants and artifacts Mystra is still among the top 3 strongest gods.

So if it seems like she gets to have all the cool toys and be the face of the setting, well...yeah, that was the intention from the start. Complaining about that or calling her lame--not your "the writers tried to make her cool and fail" objection, but the "why does everything revolve around Mystra?" types--is like complaining about the Lady of Pain in Planescape, in that they're both walking talking plot devices to make the setting go and drive new developments in the metaplot and that's the whole point. (And also like the Lady of Pain, I'd bet much of the animosity toward her stems from DMs not understanding this and shoving the Mystra and Lady into campaigns as active NPCs when that's distinctly not what they're there for.)

[SimonMoon6]

Imagine if Superman died at the beginning of each episode of Justice League (or really early on in their movie franchise). Sure, he's so powerful, he can just bring himself back, but… wouldn't the all-powerful Superman still look lame for dieing like Kenny? :smallconfused:

Yeah, with Superman v Batman, Superman is utterly and completely defeated three times in the movie: First, Batman cheats with kryptonite to beat Superman (what if Superman had brought a mountain of uranium to the fight, would that be fair?), and Superman is defeated until he utters the magic word "Martha". Second, Superman gets nuked and that finishes him off. Third, after floating around helplessly in space for a while, he comes back to the fight and dies thanks to DoomsZodDay. How many times is Batman utterly defeated in the movie? He's, um, mildly inconvenienced by Superman one time, when Superman tries to stop Batman from murdering too many people. Batman never gets his comeuppance. He never pays any price (like, even, temporary defeat) for all of his murders and branding of people that will get them killed in prison.

But the whole DC movie franchise is a clusterfudge.


Considering he's died at least 15 times in various incarnations (https://screenrant.com/times-superman-has-died-best-fake-deaths/), you tell me. :smallamused:


That's a thoroughly misleading clickbait article, but I don't feel like dissecting it (nor is this probably the place to do so). I'll summarize instead: Lots of characters used to die all the time temporarily back in the goofy Silver Age comics. This is why those stories are often not held up as the paragon of good storytelling. Superman is far from unique. There is a reason that "Not a hoax, not a dream, not an imaginary story" had to be written on so many covers (because often a story involved one of those three in order to (a) tell a story where something drastic happens to the main character and (b) not tell a story that actually changes anything). Alternate universe versions of character die all the time, so they should never be included in such a list. Nor should "imaginary stories". And yet there they are.

[Ruethgar]

Dying every episode(sometimes multiple times an episode) makes me think of Kenny from South Park. Oh! Or that Robot Chicken skit that combined Lost and Heroes. Basically the big guy with the curly hair would die a lot but auto-res himself so Skylar took his power. But the power was both. He would die, every single day without fail, over and over again, and then auto-res to die again.

[OrbanSirgen]

Dying every episode(sometimes multiple times an episode) makes me think of Kenny from South Park. Oh! Or that Robot Chicken skit that combined Lost and Heroes. Basically the big guy with the curly hair would die a lot but auto-res himself so Skylar took his power. But the power was both. He would die, every single day without fail, over and over again, and then auto-res to die again.

Or the series Aeon Flux...

[Quertus]

The Lady of Pain.

I actually considered her. I personally think Mystra - with all her Chosen of Mystra / Initiate of Mystra / whatever breaking the rules, too - is the more specialist snowflake. But I can see the argument.


Yeah, not liking the special-snowflake-ness is fair; the late-3e splatbooks and the 3e- and 4e-era novels definitely neglected material on the other deities and their worshipers in favor of more stuff about Mystra.

But that special-snowflake-ness all comes from the fact that she was, and was always intended to be, the closest things the Realms have to an overdeity before they retconned in Ao during the Time of Troubles. In Ed Greenwood's original version she was basically a "three omnis" god (omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent)...though she originally had Lurue's name and unicorn form and TSR had him swap them in the published version so the overgoddess would appear human for their human-centric setting. In her first introduction to non-Realms players in Dragon #54, she's described as "the higher force" on Toril and the "manifestation of the Cosmic Balance" that regulates all of magic and reality. And when the FR creation myth was laid out in the Gray Box and later books, she was said to have been created out of the majority of the power of Selûne and Shar (the two creator goddesses, who each had enough power left over after that to still be among the most powerful deities on Toril) and even after investing the lion's share of her power in Chosen and all sorts of other servants and artifacts Mystra is still among the top 3 strongest gods.

So if it seems like she gets to have all the cool toys and be the face of the setting, well...yeah, that was the intention from the start. Complaining about that or calling her lame--not your "the writers tried to make her cool and fail" objection, but the "why does everything revolve around Mystra?" types--is like complaining about the Lady of Pain in Planescape, in that they're both walking talking plot devices to make the setting go and drive new developments in the metaplot and that's the whole point. (And also like the Lady of Pain, I'd bet much of the animosity toward her stems from DMs not understanding this and shoving the Mystra and Lady into campaigns as active NPCs when that's distinctly not what they're there for.)

It's that combination that I was trying to push: she's the snowflake, *and* she's lame. She's the face of the setting, *and* she's lame.

When you're Batman, it doesn't matter how many super villain attacks hurt when they hit you - you're just a guy, they're *supposed* to hurt.

But when you're Superman? No, you're not supposed to die every episode (and come right back, because you're Superman) to things that the rest of the league survives.

That's lame.


Imagine if Superman died at the beginning of each episode of Justice League (or really early on in their movie franchise). Sure, he's so powerful, he can just bring himself back, but… wouldn't the all-powerful Superman still look lame for dieing like Kenny? :smallconfused:

That's just the impression Mystra always gave me.


Dying every episode(sometimes multiple times an episode) makes me think of Kenny from South Park.

Funny, me too. :smallbiggrin: Even if I can't spell. :smallredface:

EDIT: oh, wow, this thread was originally about edition-hopping via Teleport Through Time? So, where were we on that?

[Promethean]

...and vecna (again). Which all this talk about gods dying, meanwhile vecna has books (emphasis on the plural) about killing him over and over.

Vecna gets a pass because his deaths often leave him better off than he started, and are often punctuated by him doing something awesome. Even Die! Vecna! Die! has the net effect of his actions promoting him from Lesser Deity to Intermediate Deity, along with a reputation as the Only God To 1 V 1 the Lady of Pain and Survive(kinda).

That's also not the only time he did something genuinely impossible, the Dark Powers still have a restraining order against him after what happened in Raveloft.