Are flying creatures immune to Meteor Swarm?

[dragoeniex]

Tomorrow is our latest campaign's finale, and my necromancer has just added Meteor Swarm to her repertoire to help take out crowds of city-invading eldritch pests. Their boss, at the very least, will be flying overhead.

Since this is my first time prepping to use the iconic blaster spell, I've only recently noticed this confusing bit in the description.



Blazing orbs of fire plummet to the ground at four different points you can see within range. Each creature in a 40-foot-radius Sphere centered on each point you choose must make a Dexterity saving throw.



My question is this: Must the points of impact/damage start on the ground?

If so, this spell can only ever affect creatures 40> ft off the floor, and the spell phases harmlessly through obstacles and creatures until this point. This seems... odd. Essentially, all creatures with a fly speed could avoid the Swarm threat entirely, and the spell wouldn't be an option if you were traveling via flight yourselves. The positive side is it wouldn't be a 40 ft circumference, infinite ft high cylinder of mass destruction either.

Alternatively, I'm wondering if the meteor itself continues toward the ground/floor/etc., but the 40 ft sphere of impact can be anywhere along the way. Ex: explosive energy is centered on a flying demon you choose for the comet to crash into on its way down.

This leaves the question of whether that would leave the area the meteor lands unharmed, which also sounds a bit silly.

I've searched around trying to find official clarification or wording tips on the matter, but I'm coming up dry. Anyone care to tag in and see if I've missed something or if this is a non-issue?

I'll go with DM's ruling but would really like to know the intent here.

[ZerohFG]

Since it actually says on the ground, I gotta say yes? DM has final say of course, but the assumption I have from it and from Crawford is that they come in through portals (so that it can be cast in a dungeon) and that it is from ground contact.

Rule of cool ?

As for where it lands? I'd say no. Building do in fact have HP and AC, so those should be getting squished. I assumed the reason it can go around corners, is that it leaves no corner in its wake.

The way I'd maybe rule it, would be if the BBEG makes the save he takes 0 damage instead of half, and then have the meteor continue on it's path. Like he dodged it, and if he fails the save he takes the brunt of it but isn't brought to the ground with it where it makes it's impact. (maybe half damage)

It's a 9th level spell, so I don't want to rob someone of that because a line in the spell. Only thing I never do with meteor swarm is let all 4 hit the same spot.

[NecessaryWeevil]

While the flavour of the spell suggests the meteors would need to impact something, eg the ground, before exploding, the most straightforward reading is that you simply create four spherical explosions anywhere within range, period.

[False God]

Imo, this is one of the problems with "flavor language" in spells. My reading is that they plummet downward, as in: you can't shoot them up or sideways or leftways or frontways or backways. They're not Wonka-meteors. Not that you must target an object on the actual ground. I mean, what about people on top of buildings? Or elevated platforms? Or flying on a mount?

I would rule that you can pick a target in the air if you want, since that target's impact point would be "the ground" from the perspective of the falling meteor. However they explode upon the first impact. So if you have two objects, one directly below the other, and you target the bottom one then the meteor will still hit the top one and explode there, rather than on the bottom one. But you must have a physical impact point. Can't "impact" the air.

[Deathtongue]

Imagine throwing some pin-pulled grenades from an airplane, some duds and others not. All of the grenades plummet to the ground. Some manage to land on the ground and not explode. Some land and do explode on impact with the ground. But, most crucially for this analogy, some of them explode before hitting the ground.

I don't see anything in the spell saying the the spheres form only after the meteors hit the ground.

[Deathtongue]

Imo, this is one of the problems with "flavor language" in spells. My reading is that they plummet downward, as in: you can't shoot them up or sideways or leftways or frontways or backways. They're not Wonka-meteors. Not that you must target an object on the actual ground. I mean, what about people on top of buildings? Or elevated platforms? Or flying on a mount?I don't see anything in the spell about targeting people on the ground. All the spell says is that the meteors plummet to the ground. If all of the meteors fall 5 feet or even 5 inches, that still fulfills the condition of the spell.

[AvvyR]

I don't see anything in the spell about targeting people on the ground. All the spell says is that the meteors plummet to the ground. If all of the meteors fall 5 feet or even 5 inches, that still fulfills the condition of the spell.

I agree with this interpretation. Spells that must target the ground tend to say so in no uncertain terms.


EVARD'S BLACK TENTACLES

Squirming, ebony tentacles fill a 20.foot square on
ground that you can see within range.


SPIKE GROWTH

The ground in a 20-foot radius centered on a point
within range twists and sprouts hard spikes and thorns.

[fbelanger]

Since it’s a 9th level spell it is nice to make it as ineffective as possible.

[Galithar]

Since it’s a 9th level spell it is nice to make it as ineffective as possible.

Agreed!

But more seriously while it says they "plummet to the ground" it also says "40-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose" and the rules are pretty explicit in what this means. You can choose ANY point within range (1 mile). If you choose a point in the air, that's where the effect takes place, because the rules say that's how spell targeting works. It DOESN'T say "centered on each point *on the ground* you choose."

Evards Black Tentacles DOES say "a 20-foot square on the ground" also note that Evard's Black Tentacles used a 2 dimensional area (square) and not a 3 dimensional area. This further supports it's necessity of being on a surface, IE the ground.

[Chronos]

By RAW, I'm afraid that the spell is limited that way. The points that you choose are the points where the meteors hit the ground, and you can't choose for something to hit the ground a hundred feet in the air.

But that's a ridiculous limitation, for a 9th-level spell. I'd just houserule it to remove that limitation. I'd probably also houserule that the caster could, if they so choose, make the meteors originate from themself instead of coming from above, because Rule of Cool.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Going back and reading the spell again, I now agree with Chronos. The point of impact on the ground, and the point of origin for the explosion, are one and the same.

[dragoeniex]

Belatedly, thank you all for replying! Hearing the different interpretations was helpful, and it's nice to know I wasn't the only one somewhat ambiguous on which way that spell is meant to go.

It's ultimately the DM's call, but this will be nice to show him for if it comes up again.



...

Relevant to nothing, I've always loved your username.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I think being in between the ground and a meteor would happen and you would take damage.

Yeah, you choose a point below the target and the target is in the way. It's like if you choose a spot and there's a Leomund's Hut in the way that you didn't know, the things in the hut aren't going to be hit.

Flying creatures outside of the 40' sphere aren't immune to the spell if you target it correctly.

[Arkhios]

When an encounter includes flying creatures I often draw a separate "horizontal" view with a line that represents ground level, and place tokens or draw markers at the height where flying creatures are in regards to the ground level. It takes a little extra work and I usually do that on 7×7 mm² graph paper rather than on the standard 1"-square battle mat.

Once you have done that, it's not too difficult to figure out the blast area for three-dimensional areas, such as a sphere. You just have to do it twice, basically. Once on the battle mat to determine the affected creatures on the ground and once on the graph paper to determine the affected creatures above the ground.

It might seem a little too much, but I do this because utilizing all dimensions is cool and often ignored aspect of the game. And because flying creatures shouldn't get any more advantage against area spells than they already have.

I agree that the point of impact can be the flying creature itself just as well as the ground level below them. The meteors plummet towards the ground, but in their case, any physical obstacle in their path is enough to cause the meteor to stop and explode.

In regards to making saving throws, I wouldn't give flying creatures any more chances to avoid the blast than they have. If they are hit by a meteor, they must make the saving throw as normal. If they succeed, they take half damage (or none, if they have evasion and the effect is eligible).

[HappyDaze]

I wonder what happens if you cast meteor swarm on a plane that doesn't have "ground" or one that has multiple pieces of ground floating all over the place along with varying references for up & down.

[Galithar]

I wonder what happens if you cast meteor swarm on a plane that doesn't have "ground" or one that has multiple pieces of ground floating all over the place along with varying references for up & down.

The same thing as what happens when you try to target a flying creature. The DM tells you what happens 😂

[Chronos]

By houserule, I wouldn't even require that they hit a solid target. If you want meteors exploding in thin air (maybe you think there might be an invisible flying creature there? Or maybe you just want a show?), go ahead.

[Keltest]

The way the spell is worded would seem to indicate that you can make them explode in midair if you want to. They just explode before they contact the ground. I think the above mentioned "dropping a grenade out of a plane" analogy is probably the best one for what that would look like.

[ZorroGames]

This reminds me of the volcanic explosion and the Nazgul on flying creatures being destroyed in PJ’s not exactly true to the story LOTR movie 3.

As a DM I would say sure and then roll a pair of two different colored D5s, which I have, to adjust the height of explosion point. If it hits, it hits as normal per the spell effects.

Edit: I am the dice collector so I have all the old numbered diceI can collect in a divider box so it is not RAW but I would do just to use the dice.

[LtPowers]

But more seriously while it says they "plummet to the ground" it also says "40-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose" and the rules are pretty explicit in what this means. You can choose ANY point within range (1 mile). If you choose a point in the air, that's where the effect takes place, because the rules say that's how spell targeting works. It DOESN'T say "centered on each point *on the ground* you choose."

The "on the ground" restriction is already in the previous sentence: "to the ground at four different points you can see within range". That clearly indicates that the four points are intended to be on the ground, just like they have to be within range and within sight. The second sentence describes what comes out of those points, but the restrictions on the origin points themselves are in the first sentence.


Powers &8^]

[Grey Watcher]

By RAW, yeah, it does look like being over 40 feet in the air completely protects you from Meteor Swarm.

One houserule/rule zero around that is that anything flying directly above the impact site has to make a Dex save or be knocked prone (and therefore into the blast radius). The meteor itself might not be the full 40 feet in diameter, but getting dragged in the wake of it is plausible as well.

Although speaking of plausibility, how big are the meteors themselves supposed to be? The damage mostly comes from superheated air and the shockwave of impact, but how big would a rock falling from space have to be to generate a shockwave that has significantly dissipated within 40 feet? If it's small enough, maybe the chance of getting hit on the way own is just too small to model in a d20 system? :smallconfused:

[Imbalance]

"To the ground" is merely directional, and intrinsically meaningless, as is the name Meteor Storm, adding confusion to the connotation. This spell instantly summons four fireballs as big as office buildings, bashing and burning all they touch. "Plummet" may cause one to imagine that they travel, but they spell does not say that they move. The word "impact" is not in the text. There is no crater, nor does the terrain become difficult.

All it is is four points within a mile that the caster can see, dimensions of the area of effect, dex save, and two types of damage, spreads around corners and damages objects and burns unworn gear.

[NecessaryWeevil]

"To the ground" is merely directional, and intrinsically meaningless, as is the name Meteor Storm, adding confusion to the connotation. This spell instantly summons four fireballs as big as office buildings, bashing and burning all they touch. "Plummet" may cause one to imagine that they travel, but they spell does not say that they move. The word "impact" is not in the text. There is no crater, nor does the terrain become difficult.
The spell causes four meteors to plummet to the ground. If something plummets, it moves. If you go to a destination, you arrive at that destination, unless something gets in your way. I don't know how a meteor could plummet to the ground, but not impact the ground. That's what impact means.

All it is is four points within a mile that the caster can see, dimensions of the area of effect, dex save, and two types of damage, spreads around corners and damages objects and burns unworn gear.
The spell requires you to choose the points at which the meteors plummet to the ground, and then details what happens at those points. If you want to argue that the meteors hitting the ground are unrelated to the fireballs, feel free, but you have to choose four points where the meteors hit the ground, and the only points at which meteors can hit the ground are...on the ground.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Relevant to nothing, I've always loved your username.

Thank you! It occurred to me when I was reading a guide to Stronghold, and the writer was complaining about "evil weevils." :)

[JackPhoenix]

The spell causes four meteors to plummet to the ground. If something plummets, it moves. If you go to a destination, you arrive at that destination, unless something gets in your way. I don't know how a meteor could plummet to the ground, but not impact the ground. That's what impact means.

The spell requires you to choose the points at which the meteors plummet to the ground, and then details what happens at those points. If you want to argue that the meteors hitting the ground are unrelated to the fireballs, feel free, but you have to choose four points where the meteors hit the ground, and the only points at which meteors can hit the ground are...on the ground.

On the other hand, there's no limitation on how much space the meteors need, unlike Call Lightning. Nothing stops them from appearing 1 inch (or, given how D&D measures things, 5 feet) above the ground zero.

[Fable Wright]

In any logical universe, a vast and destructive trail of fire and superheated air plunging into the earth should knock everything in the air prone (no save) and then explode for full damage on top of that. If one of my players had a Broom of Flying and was hovering 50ft over the battlefield, they will not rules lawyer themselves out of minimum 40d6 damage. As a GM, I should be similarly bound.

[AvvyR]

Although speaking of plausibility, how big are the meteors themselves supposed to be? The damage mostly comes from superheated air and the shockwave of impact, but how big would a rock falling from space have to be to generate a shockwave that has significantly dissipated within 40 feet? If it's small enough, maybe the chance of getting hit on the way own is just too small to model in a d20 system? :smallconfused:

Meteors also have a habit of exploding in the air before impact, see the Tunguska Event. In that case, a meteor roughly 100 meters in diameter destroyed an area 2,150 square kilometers of the ground after exploding some 5 km above the zone, so I'd say these ones creating 40-foot radius blasts must be very tiny.

[LtPowers]

In any logical universe

It's magic. It doesn't have to be logical.

And on top of that, even if it wasn't magic, it's also a game and not a simulation.


Powers &8^]

[Fable Wright]

It's magic. It doesn't have to be logical.

Yes, it kinda does. Since the players interact with it and because magic is key to action resolution, the mechanics must be clear and hold a degree of verisimilitude. If I were running a Skyrim game, I'd absolutely keep the "bug" in, because that fits my expectation of video game logic.


And on top of that, even if it wasn't magic, it's also a game and not a simulation.

True. It's a game, so we should go with the interpretation that's most fun: player empowerment.

[Imbalance]

The spell causes four meteors to plummet to the ground. If something plummets, it moves. If you go to a destination, you arrive at that destination, unless something gets in your way. I don't know how a meteor could plummet to the ground, but not impact the ground. That's what impact means.

The spell requires you to choose the points at which the meteors plummet to the ground, and then details what happens at those points. If you want to argue that the meteors hitting the ground are unrelated to the fireballs, feel free, but you have to choose four points where the meteors hit the ground, and the only points at which meteors can hit the ground are...on the ground.

How far do they move? The spell specifies the distance, right? Nope. Or are you saying the caster may peer a mile into orbit, pluck the orbs from the heavens, and instantly have them reach the firmament, yet only effect creatures and objects and somehow not throw tons of earth and rock into the atmosphere, blotting out the sun for years to come? The spell says nothing about distance or impact, ergo "plummet" is pure fluff and needlessly convolutes the actual mechanics: four points, big round fire, dex save, burninate.

I'm not actually arguing against putting the points on the ground, though that part does seem dubious to me*. What I'm saying is that they didn't "fall" there, there is no atmospheric entry vector or point of origin. The fireballs are summoned AT the points, there they appear, there they damage, but there's nothing to say they strike the planet surface with any kind of force or movement on their part. They blip in, they 'splode, they blip out. With a word and a gesture.

That's not to say that flyers are immune, as I would argue there are ways to catch them in the sphere that could be explored. Is the side of a mountain on the ground? A treetop? A tower? Or is this spell only effective where "ground" is flat and featureless? Doesn't say. Could the barbarian chuck a boulder high enough and the caster choose that as a point? Mold Earth abuse?

Also, correcting myself, the spell is named Meteor Swarm, not Storm.

*If it's only on the ground, why is it a sphere and not a dome?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Yes, it kinda does. Since the players interact with it and because magic is key to action resolution, the mechanics must be clear and hold a degree of verisimilitude. If I were running a Skyrim game, I'd absolutely keep the "bug" in, because that fits my expectation of video game logic.



True. It's a game, so we should go with the interpretation that's most fun: player empowerment.

No it doesn't.

Why is some spells an attack roll while other spells are a dexterity saving throw?

Armor Class takes into account Dexterity. Armor Class is how hard it is to make a solid hit, or glancing hit, just like how a Dex save is usually for half damage.

The magic system doesn't have to be logical for people to use it, people just need to have faith in it... Kinda like money.

Really, all spells should have an attack roll to show you aimed them where you want them to be. However, plenty of spells don't require you to aim. You just choose a target and auto-hit, yet the target gets a save to negate the effect.

Illogical. You should still have to aim a spell, just because it doesn't have a physical manifestation doesn't mean the energies aren't there.

[JackPhoenix]

*If it's only on the ground, why is it a sphere and not a dome?

Because it hits everything in its radius, not just things touching the "surface" of the explosion.

[Imbalance]

Because it hits everything in its radius, not just things touching the "surface" of the explosion.

I was thinking of hemisphere, I suppose - a solid half-sphere, not an overturned bowl. If the point is only on the ground, why is the shape a ball when it has no effect below ground? Only the half of the shape that extends in a 40' radius into the air above and around the surface of the ground where the point lies is effectively...effected by the strict interpretation. There could be cases where the sphere reaches down into a cave or something from a surface point by going around corners, maybe, but how often does that come up? Why call it a sphere if it almost never actually gets to be a sphere because it's on the ground?

[NecessaryWeevil]

I'm not actually arguing against putting the points on the ground, though that part does seem dubious to me*. What I'm saying is that they didn't "fall" there, there is no atmospheric entry vector or point of origin. The fireballs are summoned AT the points, there they appear, there they damage, but there's nothing to say they strike the planet surface with any kind of force or movement on their part. They blip in, they 'splode, they blip out. With a word and a gesture.


Yeah, cool, I think we're mostly on the same page then. For me the location of the points on the ground is the most mechanically signficant aspect, DMs are free to interpret the implications of the meteors "plummeting" as they understand it.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Yeah, cool, I think we're mostly on the same page then. For me the location of the points on the ground is the most mechanically signficant aspect, DMs are free to interpret the implications of the meteors "plummeting" as they understand it.

5e uses "simple English" as a core concept for it's design.

If the spell says they plummet, they don't just appear.

Besides, to be a meteor, it has to come from outer space. To plummet it has to fall. It's a meteor that falls from space.

Saying it just appears and explodes is... Against everything the spell says it is, just for the sake of going against it.

Edit

Interpreting it as not a meteor and not plummeting is ok, if you're the DM, but I don't like messing with cool spells for the sake of messing with them.

[AvvyR]

5e uses "simple English" as a core concept for it's design.

If the spell says they plummet, they don't just appear.

Besides, to be a meteor, it has to come from outer space. To plummet it has to fall. It's a meteor that falls from space.

Saying it just appears and explodes is... Against everything the spell says it is, just for the sake of going against it.

Edit

Interpreting it as not a meteor and not plummeting is ok, if you're the DM, but I don't like messing with cool spells for the sake of messing with them.

Your strict interpretation would mean the spell could only be cast outdoors under the open sky on the material plane. The spell makes none of those distinctions, while other spells that must be cast outside or under certain conditions do.

[Keltest]

If were completely ignoring any fluff for a moment, the relevant language from the spells seems to be these two sentence fragments:

"-four different points you can see within range. Each creature in a 40-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose-"

The spell has a range of one mile, and they explode at the points you choose. That suggests to me that they fall until they hit the point you chose and then explode. I don't see any restrictions that the chosen points must be on the ground, only that a meteor will pass through those points on the way to the ground, and explode when it hits one.

As for the argument about them being literally giant fireballs however, there is also this sentence:

"The spell damages objects in the area and ignites flammable objects that aren’t being worn or carried."

Which seems to me that its up to the DM to decide what effects on the terrain such an explosion would have based on the location of impact, but that there would probably be a crater, and that structures would be damaged or destroyed if they were in the area.

[Fable Wright]

Illogical. You should still have to aim a spell, just because it doesn't have a physical manifestation doesn't mean the energies aren't there.

And yet there is a consistency. If it affects an area that is large enough for it to not conceivably miss, there is a save. If it doesn't target the body or can remove actions, there is a save. If I make a version of Synaptic Static that requires an attack roll for all targets, that would feel paradigm breaking as a spell, wouldn't it? Because there's an internal logic we all recognize.

[LtPowers]

If were completely ignoring any fluff for a moment, the relevant language from the spells seems to be these two sentence fragments:

"-four different points you can see within range. Each creature in a 40-foot-radius sphere centered on each point you choose-"

You have arbitrarily cut your sentence fragment right after the operative words "to the ground".


Powers &8^]

[Imbalance]

Interpreting it as not a meteor and not plummeting is ok, if you're the DM, but I don't like messing with cool spells for the sake of messing with them.

Did you (anybody) ever play Ogre Battle 64? Remember the Drakonite Book of Meteor Strike? That's basically how I interpret this - the wizard throws down, the effect is on screen just long enough so that the bad guys can poop their pants before kissing huge amounts of health goodbye, and once you have it you spam it until your Chaos Frame is in the basement. I'd say it's cool no matter how you want to fluff it, but it's outside of the text to have it smack the dragon on the wing more than 40' up unless you house-clarify that those points can be placed anywhere.

[Witty Username]

It's magic. It doesn't have to be logical.

And on top of that, even if it wasn't magic, it's also a game and not a simulation.


Powers &8^]

Then air can be ground, because its magic:smallamused:.

I would say personally, you can hit a flying creature directly with the meteor which will allow it to explode.

Edit: on the other hand, the spell description seems to say that the meteors plummet to the ground but the four different points don't have to be on the ground so, meh.

[Keltest]

You have arbitrarily cut your sentence fragment right after the operative words "to the ground".


Powers &8^]

It wasn't arbitrary, the plummeting effect is part of the fluff. There are no mechanical effects from having the meteors falling, to the point where its possible to cast the spell in environments where similar spells like Call Lightning would not be able to be cast. If youre trapped in a 5x5 box buried a mile underground, you can darn well have those 4 meteors splatter you all over the landscape and make a big hole where you used to be buried. The actual given rules for targeting the spell neither require the points to be on the ground, nor for there to be a direct path from the target point to the sky.

[Yakk]

It wasn't arbitrary, the plummeting effect is part of the fluff. There are no mechanical effects from having the meteors falling, to the point where its possible to cast the spell in environments where similar spells like Call Lightning would not be able to be cast. If youre trapped in a 5x5 box buried a mile underground, you can darn well have those 4 meteors splatter you all over the landscape and make a big hole where you used to be buried. The actual given rules for targeting the spell neither require the points to be on the ground, nor for there to be a direct path from the target point to the sky.
There is no fluff in 5th edition spell descriptions. Every word is rules text.

This isn't 4e or even 3e.

[Keltest]

There is no fluff in 5th edition spell descriptions. Every word is rules text.

This isn't 4e or even 3e.

Ok, but there isn't anything in the text that requires the points you choose to be on the ground. The part I cut out describes the behaviors of the meteors, which could potentially have interesting consequences if there happens to be something directly in the path of the meteors before they explode, but nothing actually says you need to have them explode when they contact the ground, just that they appear, fall and then explode when they hit a point you designate.