Enchantment for TWF help

[ghanjrho]

A thought I had for reducing the tax on TWF, namely the cost of having to enchant two weapons. Essentially, the character designated a primary weapon and a secondary weapon (which the user must be capable of wielding simultaneously). Thereafter, the primary weapon is enchanted at a price of Bonus squared times 3000gp, and all enchantments are copied onto the secondary weapon (excluding those that are invalid for the secondary weapon).

[Jay R]

This means that the weapons can't be different, which loses some fun possibilities.

My approach is that one of the weapons should be the carefully designed one I bought, and the other should be the coolest weapon we've found. This helps reduce the overall cost because otherwise you would sell it for half value.

This also gives the DM the opportunity to give the PC a weapon that has an ability you never knew you would need -- the green dragon's bane sword that he put in a treasure right before introducing an ancient green dragon.

[Of course, my reaction is partly based on the fact that I started playing in 1975, when it was assumed that all your magic would be things you found as treasure. I would rather view the treasure as wonderful possibilities we never had before, rather than as currency. I want my reaction to the magic sword in the treasure to be different from my reaction to the pile of gold and gems.]

[heavyfuel]

In my games, you can have "twin" weapons.

"Twin" is an enchantment that can be put on any light or one-handed melee weapon, and effectively links it with its pair. It costs 1000gp to make a pair of weapons "twins", and one weapon cannot be a twin with more than one other weapon.

Enchanting a twin weapon costs half as much as enchanting a normal weapon, but should you wield one weapon separately from the other, the wielded weapon is treated as non-magical.

Sidenote: I also allow for "gloves of throwing" in the Hand slot, which enchant any thrown weapon just like a bow enchants its arrows. You can also get twinned gloves of throwing.

Hasn't caused any problem balance wise so far in almost 6 years with this houserule

[Kelb_Panthera]

Just putting this in for perspective:

A +10 weapon is 10*10*2000 = 200,000 gp.

With your system, the closest cost equivalent is a linked pair at +8; that is 8*8*3000 = 192,000.

Without your system, you can get two +7 weapons that are completely different for only slightly more; (7*7*2000)*2 = 196,000.




At the other end, a paired +10 is 300,000 gp.

An independent pair of a +9 and a +8 is 162,000+128,00 = 290,000 gp.

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I'll be honest, that doesn't sound like a trade I'd be willing to make, either way. The loss of the ability to customize independently just isn't worth the savings.

The importance of the "tax" gets overstated in my opinion. The drawbacks of TWF are always highlighted to the Nth degree but the benefits are almost never discussed. Same goes for archery.

If you'll indulge me:

First, the drawbacks for TWF.

Necessity of full attack: this is also highlighted as a problem with melee in general and it's not exactly hard to deal with; spirit lion barabarian, pouncing charge maneuver, sudden leap maneuver, travel domain, anklets of translocation, tattoo of inconstant location*, training dummy of the master, press the advantage stance, belt of battle, dc 40 tumble 10 foot step, etc. These are of varying degrees of effectiveness but they all get you at least a little extra movement to close the gap and full-attack.

Damage reduction applies more often: while this is true, it's also fairly simple to get around; shards of granite tactical feat, metaline enhancement, shadow-striking enhancement, stormguard warrior tactical feat, morphing weapon enhancement, energy damage enhancements, burning brand maneuver, etc. You -can- either go around or through DR to adequate degrees with two weapons. This doesn't make it better or even as good as two-handed weapons on this front but getting to acceptable is just not that difficult.

Feat intensive: ... yeah... What? I never said the arguments were wrong, just exaggerated. If you're going this way, you will have to go fishing for feats with your build. The only thing I can really say here is to not waste one on greater TWF. An attack at BAB -10 isn't worth a feat.

Doesn't work with power attack: only if you insist on a light, off-hand weapon. Two one-handed weapons output the same damage as one two-handed weapon and there's a solid argument to be made that double-weapons get the 2:1 exchange too. The TWF rules say you take penalties as though you wield a one-handed and light weapon when wielding a double weapon. They are, nevertheless, two-handed weapons and the bonus from PA is not a penalty.


The benefits.

More consistent damage, round to round: because of how averages work, making more attacks in a round tends to reduce the importance of the attack and damage rolls as they trend toward the average. Never gets close to eliminating their importance but still reduces it compared to a two-handed weapon.

More hits: twice as many attacks at 10% less accuracy should net around 180% as many hits as the comparable two-handed fighter. Depending on your damage sources and DR prevelance, it can be a -lot- more than 180% damage.

More crits: the more chances you have to crit, the more of 'em you'll see. If you make 1000 attacks over a few levels, you'll see around 50 threats. If you make 2000, you'll see around 100. That scales up with threat range, of course, and can easily reach into "frequently shortening fights" territory.

Greater flexibility: as I noted at the top of this post, for the same price you can get more weapon special abilities than a warrior wielding a single, two-handed weapon. You don't -have- to use both weapons at all times. If, for whatever reason, you think doubling up isn't such a good idea for a particular foe, you can stow one of your weapons and use the other. If you've gone with two one-handers or a double-weapon to use power attack, you're hitting nearly as hard and can choose between the two enhancement sets. Even if you set the off-hand side to mostly defensive and utility enhancements rather than extra damage, the arguments above all still hold.

So, in summation: give TWF a chance. It's really not as bad as you may think.

[heavyfuel]

Doesn't work with power attack: only if you insist on a light, off-hand weapon. Two one-handed weapons output the same damage as one two-handed weapon and there's a solid argument to be made that double-weapons get the 2:1 exchange too. The TWF rules say you take penalties as though you wield a one-handed and light weapon when wielding a double weapon. They are, nevertheless, two-handed weapons and the bonus from PA is not a penalty

While I agree with pretty much everything you said, this isn't true. PA makes an explicit note that a double weapon is treated as a one handed weapon and a light weapon, and only treated as a two handed weapon if you decide to attack with only one end

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's not explicitly stated anywhere. There is one place where it's implied though:


Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.

This parenthetical explicitly says you use the 2:1 rate when using a double weapon as a two-handed weapon, using one end to attack during a round but there is -nowhere- that explicitly says you don't use it for twf with one. It's merely implied in the normative statement of the first sentence.

Primary source says when two rules conflict, use the primary source. Primary source for two weapon fighting is the special combat actions section in chapter 8. Primary for double weapons is the categorization header in chapter 7. Neither says anything about a double weapon's interaction with power attack.

I argue that the normative statement under power attack is a reminder of a rule that doesn't actually exist. It was incorretly presumed to exist by whomever wrote the feat.

[Elkad]

I've fiddled with fixing the enchantment "penalty" in prior games.
As mentioned above, twinned weapons don't gain much, and lose utility, so I just tossed it.
I decided to fix TWF instead.



Two-Weapon Fighting (and MWF) entitles you to full iterative attacks (includes the benefits of Improved and Greater TWF).
Full str mod with all hands (half with light weapons still)
New Feat: Ambidexterity. Multiattack penalties reduced by dexmod. Yes, that means with enough dex, you can skip TWF completely at the cost of offhand iteratives.
Iterative attacks. Penalty reduced from -5 to -2. (I considered going full 1e/2e and tossing the penalty completely)
A double weapon attacks as 1h+light, but does damage as 2 1h weapons.


They still pay extra for gear. But they get a significant advantage in number of effective attacks.

Plus my standard Rapid Advance rule for everyone. Move half your speed in a straight line as part of a Full Attack. Charge, Spring Attack and Maneuvers still have value, but you get to move more than 5' right out of the box.