Fiendslaying as a Wizard

[Eldariel]

So I'm playing a Wizard who I've built to beat on Fiends. As most probably know, Fiends tend to be tough customers for magical murderimanzing with elemental immunities and resistances up the wazoo (notably all Devils are immune to Fire; force and radiant are never resisted by them and necrotic + acid very rarely with Lightning somewhat frequently) and generally magic resistance on top of that with some even having access to Dispel Magic. The good part is that generally they don't have Legendary Resistance nor that potent of a spellcasting ability (on the sub-ruler level, few have access to real spellcasting and their SLAs are quite neutered in 5e). So that's the lay of the land; difficulty dealing elemental damage, hard to make them fail saves, a modicum of HP, poison immunity but few others.

The Wizard is a level 5 Diviner (with Alert and Res: Con). This gives him the backdoor to Portent past Magic Resistance Portent times per day making save-or-X effects more desirable. Still quite limited. Anyways, the current with the following spells:

Level 0
Chill Touch (Necrotic is only resisted by two fiends to my knowledge, the Shadow Demon and the Maurezhi; attack roll + necrotic was the most reliable attack cantrip I could find)
Mold Earth
Minor Illusion

Level 1
Magic Missile
Grease
Shield
Mage Armor
Absorb Elements
Sleep
Unseen Servant

Level 2
Dragon's Breath
Invisibility
Pyrotechnics
Levitate
Suggestion

Level 3
Hypnotic Pattern
Phantom Steed

And a number of rituals, divinations, etc. that aren't directly relevant to murderifying Fiends. Currently I'm looking for spells, particularly AOE, that are efficient against Outsiders with the given parameters. Obviously, as a Diviner, I'm going to be learning single target nukes like Banishment and Polymorph (though do mention ones targeting different saves you can think of), but I'd like at least one decent AOE that's good for mopping up magic resistant bastards. The only one I can think of is Spike Growth, which isn't a Wizard spell. Down the line I'll of course have stuff like Animate Objects (but non-magical weapon resistance sucks), Conjure Elementals (but fire immunity and non-magical weapon resistance does limit this), Wall of Stone/Force/etc., Telekinesis (I wonder if there's an easy way to create large quantities of Holy Water vials?), Bigby's, etc. But under level 5 options would be nice. Sickening Radiance would be cool except apparently the save negates the whole spell, not just the damage, and getting Con-saves off Magic Resistant fiends just isn't happening.

TL;DR: Diviner 5 (but more than 5 in the future) looking for more good spells against Outsiders, particularly AOEs.

[LudicSavant]

If you're going fiend slaying, you likely don't want to skip out on Protection from Evil and Good. It's straight up better than Blur (by a very comfortable margin) as long as you're fighting fiends, and only a level 1 slot. With a decent duration, it's a nice efficient pre-cast (I'll usually put it on whoever the stickiest party member is).

As for actually slaying them with magic, fiendish antimagic defenses don't really do a much to an optimized hexvoker (such as the Nuclear Wizard in my sig), since they can just kinda ignore Magic Resistance, Legendary Saves, etc. So they just kinda melt.

[HPisBS]

I see you have Dragon's Breath and Phantom Steed, but no Find Familiar. Is there a reason for that? Phantom Steed ends with 1 damage, so it's not like you can put Dragon's Breath on it and expect it to last any longer than if you put it on a familiar.

Also, I second the Protection from Evil and Good.

Since you're a diviner, Detect Evil and Good would also make sense if you can get it.

Catapult for your holy water.

There's also Mind Spike & Phantasmal Force for psychic (zero fiends resist) + a rider.

Hypnotic Pattern is pretty great for dealing with those hordes. ~ 35/95 fiends are immune to charm, but only 11 of those are < CR10. Sure, anything that makes its Wis save can go around waking up those who didn't, but still.

[LudicSavant]

Another low level option that works for Wizards in general is Cloud of Daggers, which is an AoE (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/04/cloud-of-daggers-area-of-effect/) (albeit a small one), doesn't offer saves, and doesn't care about fiendish resistances. For it to truly strut its stuff, you've gotta use teamwork with folks like, say, repelling blast EB-locks or grapplers or other such things.

Steel Wind Strike does force damage and has the unique distinction of using an attack roll rather than a save for an AoE, which means it doesn't give a fig about magic resistance. It also can't hit allies in the crossfire, and teleports you. Works well with attack accuracy boosters.

Vitriolic Sphere offers a saving throw, and loses more than half its damage if they make the save, but at least it's avoiding the oft-resisted-by-fiends types of fire, cold, lightning, and poison. And magic resistance is at least a tad less common amongst the kind of fiends that populate mook swarms.

Thunderwave is generally my go-to Concentrationless AoE in both level 1 and level 2 slots if the DM uses interesting maps or you or your party have abilities that capitalize on positioning (like Cloud of Daggers, incidentally). It's Thunder type, but it is a Constitution save...

Dragon's Breath is already on your list, and can use the acid type.

Magic Missile is arguably the best single target direct damage spell in both a 1st and 2nd level slot (outdamaging Scorching Ray against foes of modest AC or higher), and it doesn't care about most fiendish defenses (quite unlike Scorching Ray). With certain builds (like those that can get Hexblade's Curse + Empowered Evocation), it stays relevant even when upcast well beyond 2nd level.

Catapult is solid if the DM rules that you can just add the holy water damage on.


I see you have Dragon's Breath and Phantom Steed, but no Find Familiar. Is there a reason for that?

Yeah, Find Familiar is a must-have.

[Eldariel]

Thanks a lot. In no particular order...

I do in fact have Find Familiar and Protection from Stuff. I did forget to mention both, ty for the heads up (mostly using P. Steed, 'cause money and my char being fond of their familiar).

Nuclear Wiz is not an option. Hexblade is soft-banned (and only have 12 Cha anyway) and I'm not willing to multiclass (at least not before level 17), plus Diviner is staying.

Cloud of Daggers is a great call, thanks! We do have a Blade so some repositioning is available.

Steel Wind Strike is precisely what I'm looking for! Sadly such a high level but definitely something I'm learning. Thanks a ton.


Others...good ideas. The save part is annoying, but I'll have to just work with it. Vitriolic Sphere was on my radar already, I'll prolly go with it. Thunderwave I hadn't though of. I'll have to learn it with CoD. Seems neat together.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Catapult! I really wanted it, but it sadly uses saves instead of attack rolls. Single target damage just isn't what I wanna use my Portent on.

[Scarytincan]

Vitriolic sphere, phantasmal force, and fog cloud would be my recommends to look at. Devils see through darkness but not fog, lvl 1, can upcast to greatly improve size, and a lot of uses. Magic circle also either for defense or as a trap.

[HPisBS]

...
EDIT: Oh yeah, Catapult! I really wanted it, but it sadly uses saves instead of attack rolls. Single target damage just isn't what I wanna use my Portent on.

Catapult is only 1st level, so unless you're trying to launch your last vial of holy water or something, it shouldn't be too disappointing if they avoid it.

Plus, if they do avoid it, then it keeps on moving until it hits whatever is behind your target (up to 90 ft total).

[iTreeby]

There's also Mind Spike

Mind spike is silly on a 6th lv diviner because you can upcast it to cast another mind spike!

[LudicSavant]

Mind spike is silly on a 6th lv diviner because you can upcast it to cast another mind spike!

Eh, it's not that silly. If you spend 2 rounds casting a level 3 Mind Spike, and then a level 2 Mind Spike, it's slightly more average DPR than an Evoker casting Toll the Dead for those two rounds. And tied up your Concentration while you were at it.

Edit:
Ex: enemy has +1 Wis, your save DC is 15:
2 rounds of Mind Spike: ~12.9 DPR
2 rounds of Toll the Dead: ~10.6 DPR

So yeah, it's useful with the Matryoshka doll spell slots, but I wouldn't say it's silly / over the top. I think of it kind of like spending a spell slot to Concentrate and boost sustained damage.

[iTreeby]

Does evoker have a cantrip that isn't resisted by fiends? The concentration is an option for if they are fleeing, but yeah definitely don't concentrate on "find the fiend" when you don't need to

[LudicSavant]

Does evoker have a cantrip that isn't resisted by fiends?

Necrotic is resisted by almost no fiends (3 out of 118 that I checked).

The types that are commonly resisted by fiends are fire, cold, lightning, and poison.

[Eldariel]

Vitriolic sphere, phantasmal force, and fog cloud would be my recommends to look at. Devils see through darkness but not fog, lvl 1, can upcast to greatly improve size, and a lot of uses. Magic circle also either for defense or as a trap.

Vitriolic Sphere does run the issue of the save negating 2/3rds of its damage as opposed to the usual half. Things with Magic Resistance are thus pretty good against it. Otherwise it is actually quite the good spell and something I'll have to think about as Acid is certainly one of the better damage types to this end. I'm kinda thinking of Lightning Bolt too; it does decent damage even on a successful save and while lightning is resisted by pretty much all the tanar'ri, baatezu tends to not resist it... But having elemental resistance and magic resistance to contend with does make these kinda iffy.

Fog Cloud, yeah, it's nice but I've got Pyrotechnics which does something quite similar without Concentration so I've stopped preparing Fog Cloud for now (though obviously 1st level slot is nice). By the same token I am of course interested in Sleet Storm down the line.

Magic Circle, yeah, definitely. Sadly it has a long cast time making its combat uses limited, but it's 100% something this character must know.


Catapult is only 1st level, so unless you're trying to launch your last vial of holy water or something, it shouldn't be too disappointing if they avoid it.

Plus, if they do avoid it, then it keeps on moving until it hits whatever is behind your target (up to 90 ft total).

Mostly it's the economy: if I'm spending an action and a spell slot against an enemy that's got a rather good chance of negating the effect entirely, I would want more out of it than 20,5 average damage. I'd love it if it used attack roll but as it stands... For single target save-or-X effects I want that the target be entirely incapacitated by the spell (Suggestion, Levitate both fit the bill against certain things), since then I can use Portent to that end.


Necrotic is resisted by almost no fiends (3 out of 118 that I checked).

The types that are commonly resisted by fiends are fire, cold, lightning, and poison.

Out of curiosity, what's the third one? I'm aware of Shadow Demon and Maurezhi (and some archdevils and demon princes but not counting those - unsurprisingly Orcus is immune), but not the other ones. But yeah, Chill Touch is by far the safest cantrip to this end I could find as it negates both, magic resistance and the elemental resistances. Of course, it doesn't work on Rakshasa but then again, few low level caster things do.


As for Mind Spike, its primary allure to me is that it's a save that's commonly fairly poor on Fiends so even with magic resistance, there's a reasonable chance of getting it through. But it still falls under the "not that impactful single target save-or-X effects", which is quite the turn-off.

[LudicSavant]

Out of curiosity, what's the third one? I'm aware of Shadow Demon and Maurezhi

Rakdos. A setting-specific CR24 fiend from GGtR.

So yeah. Necrotic ain't resisted that much by fiends :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

Rakdos. A setting-specific CR24 fiend from GGtR.

So yeah. Necrotic ain't resisted that much by fiends :smalltongue:

Ah, good, good. Rakdos is frankly something I'd put in the same league with Orcus, Zariel and company (unique being that's essentially a demi-godish creature at the helm of a guild) so not that worried until I'm really jumping off the deep end :smallbiggrin:

[SpawnOfMorbo]

When going up against Devils and Demons you need training in performance and expertise in performance. Alternatively, taking expertise in a musical instrument helps too.

Challenge them to a rock off and you can get them to do anything you want.

Yeah, even chaotic demons, it's part of the demon's code.

[HPisBS]

When going up against Devils and Demons you need training in performance and expertise in performance. Alternatively, taking expertise in a musical instrument helps too.

Challenge them to a rock off and you can get them to do anything you want.

Yeah, even chaotic demons, it's part of the demon's code.

Better stick with country. Then, you only need to be the better instrumentalist.

If you're playing rock, you have to play the greatest and best song in the world – probably a higher bar to clear.

–

Edit: But back on topic, my party once used Phantasmal Force on a fiendish boss to great effect. Made it see a Solar flying around attacking right in front of it. The same principle should even work on the weaker fiends. Make it see a Battleforce Angel, or (potentially) better yet, a Hollyphant. Hollyphants block all low-level spells, so if the fiend knows that, then it won't "waste" any spells on it, nor anyone behind it.

Vampiric Touch has the unfortunate downside of requiring you to be up close to the enemy, but that necrotic damage is rarely resisted. The healing is nice, too.

Once you reach level 9, you can get Enervation for a better Witch Bolt.

Best of all, you can start loading up on radiant evocation at 7 with Sickening Radiance. Then Wall of Light at 9.
And at 11, you can get Sunbeam!


Sickening Radiance would be cool except apparently the save negates the whole spell, not just the damage, and getting Con-saves off Magic Resistant fiends just isn't happening.

It seems you overlooked the fact that it's a hazard aoe. If you can keep pushing it in there, or have an ally restrain it with Web or something, then it repeatedly forces that save.

[JumboWheat01]

When going up against Devils and Demons you need training in performance and expertise in performance. Alternatively, taking expertise in a musical instrument helps too.

Challenge them to a rock off and you can get them to do anything you want.

Yeah, even chaotic demons, it's part of the demon's code.

The devil went down to Georgia, he was lookin' for a soul to steal.♫

Unless they're on fire, wouldn't Web be a good spell to have? Just restrain the buggers for the stabbers to get stabbin'. Sleet Storm may be an interesting take too, make dangerous terrain for the walkers, and cause problems for the spellcasters.

[Eldariel]

Edit: But back on topic, my party once used Phantasmal Force on a fiendish boss to great effect. Made it see a Solar flying around attacking right in front of it. The same principle should even work on the weaker fiends. Make it see a Battleforce Angel, or (potentially) better yet, a Hollyphant. Hollyphants block all low-level spells, so if the fiend knows that, then it won't "waste" any spells on it, nor anyone behind it.

Yeah, it's a potentially powerful spell. The problem is again the save. But at least Int is something they may fail even with Advantage. Not sure how often I'd rather know Phantasmal Force than Suggestion though. I'd love to find a similar Illusion that specifically doesn't offer a save but only Int (Investigation) checks.


Vampiric Touch has the unfortunate downside of requiring you to be up close to the enemy, but that necrotic damage is rarely resisted. The healing is nice, too.

Single target but I could of course familiar-deliver it easily enough. I just wish it weren't Concentration; I have plenty of cool Concentration spells but what I really need is some fire'n'forget AOE nukes.


Once you reach level 9, you can get Enervation for a better Witch Bolt.

I wish Enervation were like a level 3 spell... I can't really vindicate picking it over the other level 9 spells (Wall of Force, Animate Object, Steel Wind Strike, Telekinesis, Bigby's, etc.).


Best of all, you can start loading up on radiant evocation at 7 with Sickening Radiance. Then Wall of Light at 9.
And at 11, you can get Sunbeam!

It seems you overlooked the fact that it's a hazard aoe. If you can keep pushing it in there, or have an ally restrain it with Web or something, then it repeatedly forces that save.

I'm well aware of the repeated saves on Sickening Radiance, but most Fiends have Con save proficiency and magic resistance so they're like 20 % - 10 % to fail the save vs. my DC 17ish. And I need them to fail multiple saves to really get value out of it (especially as the exhaustion levels disappear as soon as the spell does). If I can keep them in a Sickening Radiance long enough to get value out of it, any sustained AOE effect would kill them (I could use Cloud of Daggers out of a level 2 slot). Wall of Light is more interesting in that it does automatic damage to all Fiends in its space (only if they end their movement there though, which is a downer) and allows shooting them. I can't expect to blind anything with it and it's competing with some seriously awesome spells on level 5.

Sunbeam is something I very well might have to learn. Tho annoyingly it loses 2/3rd of its effect on a successful Con save, it doesn't give Fiends a save penalty and it's again a Concentration spell. Overall, I'm a bit sad that all the Radiant damage effects a Wizard has have no provisos for Fiends as such. Wall of Light seems like the potentially most promising, but the fact that they're all Con-saves really blows as basically all Fiends worth their CR have a proficiency and high Con-save making them extremely difficult to get the full effect on.


Unless they're on fire, wouldn't Web be a good spell to have? Just restrain the buggers for the stabbers to get stabbin'. Sleet Storm may be an interesting take too, make dangerous terrain for the walkers, and cause problems for the spellcasters.

Web gives them a Dex-save to apparently walk through it scot-free. As a rule, fiends have good Dex-saves and magic resistance. Also, basically every Devil at least has some kind of "throw fire" ability, which is really inconvenient for Web specifically. It's still a spell worth considering, but likely I'll have to try and stick with the primarily vision denial AOEs like Sleet Storm and Pyrotechnics.

[LudicSavant]

The only non-Concentration AoE nuke that doesn't offer a saving throw is Steel Wind Strike.

[Eldariel]

The only non-Concentration AoE nuke that doesn't offer a saving throw is Steel Wind Strike.

Hmm, what about control spells that don't offer saves? I know Walls, Bigby, Telekinesis, kinda-sorta Minor Illusion/Silent Image. Are there other Illusions that are only Investigation but still offer hardish CC? What about anything that only offers Strength-checks, but not saves?