Are haunts as dangerous as they seem?

[heavyfuel]

I was reading about them, and they seem very dangerous for their CR.

For one, Haunts can only be damaged with Positive Energy, which basically means only a Cleric or Oracle can deal with them adequately. If your divine caster is a Druid (who don't typically prepare many Cure Wounds spells), or if you lack a divine caster altogether, there's basically no way of dealing with them.

For two, a bunch of haunts require perception checks, so Clerics likely won't notice them, and Oracles very likely won't notice them. So the Haunt can act in the Surprise round, no divine caster notices it, it causes whatever effect, then it resets.

For three, even if you do have a Cleric who rolls well on his Perception AND Initiative checks, they still need to deal a non-negligible amount damage to neutralize (not kill) a haunt, which requires a non-negligible attack roll. CR 3 haunts with 13 HP can very easily survive 2d8+3 damage from Cure Moderate Wounds, and AC 10 probably means a Cleric needing to roll 6+ on their attack roll. Overall it's a slim chance of netrualizing it.

Anyway, they seem much stronger than regular traps, which can be dealt with in a series of ways. Not only is Trapfinding more common in classes than the ability to channel positive energy, you can trigger them with summons or with a willing Barbarian. Plus, once you trigger them, they're gone. Even reducing a haunt's HP to zero won't destroy them.

Note I haven't used them in game, but are they really that dangerous?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Haunts 'do less' than Traps of the equivalent CR. Just take a look at numbers; traps have damage and to-hit values at such high levels relative to CR that they are near guaranteed to hit and deal a serious relative amount of damage. But the main difference I've found is that Huants are traps for the die averse; that meaning its a plot element with a side serving of crunch. Things happen that are connected to THE PLOT and the PC's get some interaction. Its not about defeating them in the traditional sense. Its about having the PC's experience the Haunt. Most Haunts I've seen have at least an hour (and more commonly 24 hours) before they are reset so they are only a problem when the area needs to be traversed more than once overly a decently long period of time. And they also have options to remove the Haunt without spamming Positive Energy at it.

I think my point is that Haunts are Traps for story-tellers. They help illustrate a story without inserting a GM-Mouthpiece to exposit over the players. And it keeps up engagement as it presents a continuing danger to the PCs if not addressed. If used well the response should be "How do we banish the haunt?" not "Dang, Mr. Cleric didn't get a chance pump it with Positive Energy".

[Kurald Galain]

For one, Haunts can only be damaged with Positive Energy, which basically means only a Cleric or Oracle can deal with them adequately.
Or alternatively, anyone with a wand of CLW. And frankly, I've never seen a party without those. Plus, clerics tend to have excellent perception due to their wisdom score (and they have a few ways of making it a class skill).


Note I haven't used them in game, but are they really that dangerous?
The main reason why they aren't that dangerous, is that in most cases the party can walk away from them and they can't/won't pursue. Unless your party is the kind that wants to kill everything, haunts are more of a storytelling device and less of an actual danger.

Compared to regular traps? Any trap with an attack roll can crit; and a trap crit can be an instant kill on any character with less than d10 hit dice...

[heavyfuel]

@ Traps: I guess it's true that traps can be dangerous. However, it's my experience that they're only dangerous once per player. After suffering the effects of a single deadly trap, paranoia takes over and a trap is never sprung again.


Or alternatively, anyone with a wand of CLW. And frankly, I've never seen a party without those. Plus, clerics tend to have excellent perception due to their wisdom score (and they have a few ways of making it a class skill).

They act during the surprise round, so you can't draw a wand (move action) and activate it (standard action). Even if they're in hand, passing the UMD check is hard at early levels. This also quickly becomes useless as higher CR start appearing.

Clerics have average Perception in the early levels, and crap at mid to higher levels. Getting it as a class skill helps, but not every cleric's going this route

[Palanan]

Maybe I’ve been running them wrong, but haunts have always seemed a little on the mild side to me.

I love the concept, and I’ve tried using them a couple of times in my current campaign, but they don’t seem to really do much. They’re good for atmosphere, but so far they haven't been much of a challenge.

[Kurald Galain]

Clerics have average Perception in the early levels, and crap at mid to higher levels.

Why is that? A cleric would have full ranks and +6 to +7 from wisdom, whereas another character would have full ranks, +1 from wisdom, and +3 from having it as a class skill. Both will likely buy eagle goggles at some point. How exactly is the cleric crap at this?

[heavyfuel]

Why is that? A cleric would have full ranks and +6 to +7 from wisdom, whereas another character would have full ranks, +1 from wisdom, and +3 from having it as a class skill. Both will likely buy eagle goggles at some point. How exactly is the cleric crap at this?

Because, like I said, not every cleric is going to get it as a class skill. So having +7 is not really great.

Sure, they CAN get it to high bonuses, but with it not being a class skill and they only getting 2+int ranks per level, it's hardly fair to say that Clerics in general have high Perception bonuses

[Firebug]

Most groups have someone who can run a CLW wand and who doesn't have that in a spring-loaded wrist sheath (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Wrist%20sheath% 20(spring%20loaded))? Like, spend the 5gp for 'quickdraw'.
A CR 3 haunt with 13 HP is a Persistent Haunt, which means its effectively a CR 1 with additional HP.
From the Haunt rules in Game Mastery Guide (https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Haunts&Category=Advanced%20Topics):
"Step 1—Determine Base CR: A haunt’s base CR is equal to 1 + the level of the spell it duplicates."
So without taking other negatives to its CR, that same CR 3 with 13 hp is casting a 0th level spell.
The only CR 3 haunt with 13 hp I could find is Foreboding Mist (https://aonprd.com/Haunts.aspx?ItemName=Foreboding%20Mist), which has the Slow trait (so acts on initiative 0, not 10). If it didn't have Persistent it would only have 6 HP. So to stat it up:
Step 1: Base CR: 1 + 2 (Haunting Mist spell)
Step 2: Other Modifiers(+2 persistent, -2 Slow, -1 Notice DC of 15, +1 Reset 1 hour): CR 3
Step 3: Determine CL = CR
Step 4: HP = CR*4.5(persistent) = 13
Step 5: Calculate Attack/DCs (CR=Attack if needed, DCs determines normally as if cast by an item, DC 13 in this case)
Ultimately this Haunt creates mist in a 20' radius, and DC 13 or 1d2 wisdom damage and shaken. 1d2 Wisdom damage does nothing 50% of the time, since you don't care about ability damage until you reach 2.

Its also important to note that "All primary effects created by a haunt are mind-affecting fear effects, even those that actually produce physical effects. Immunity to fear grants immunity to a haunt’s direct effects, but not to secondary effects that arise as a result of the haunt’s attack." Meaning the paladin doesn't even care even if the haunt drops a meteor swarm.

[Kurald Galain]

Because, like I said, not every cleric is going to get it as a class skill. So having +7 is not really great.

Like I said, +7 and full ranks, as opposed to another class having +4 and full ranks. Looks like the cleric, despite not having it as a class skill, is BETTER than other classes that DO have it as a class skill. Because, like I said, it's a wisdom skill. :smallamused:

[Gnaeus]

Because, like I said, not every cleric is going to get it as a class skill. So having +7 is not really great.

Sure, they CAN get it to high bonuses, but with it not being a class skill and they only getting 2+int ranks per level, it's hardly fair to say that Clerics in general have high Perception bonuses

Any cleric without a high perception bonus is probably incapable of even picking decent spells. It’s clearly one of the most critical skills in the game. Most characters max perception whether in class or not because dice are swingy and being surprised sucks and not finding the treasure sucks and failing to locate that invisible enemy’s square sucks. A cleric with no investment other than max ranks and wisdom will be better than almost any other party member, unless there is another wisdom caster. And any cleric who cares can get it as a class skill with a trait and be amazing, as opposed to merely very good. There are maybe half a dozen classes better at it in the game. And the only one that isn’t a wis caster I can think of is the investigator. (Also Druids, Shamans, inquisitors and hunters. Maybe one or two more)

[heavyfuel]

Most groups have someone who can run a CLW wand and who doesn't have that in a spring-loaded wrist sheath (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Wrist%20sheath% 20(spring%20loaded))? Like, spend the 5gp for 'quickdraw'.
A CR 3 haunt with 13 HP is a Persistent Haunt, which means its effectively a CR 1 with additional HP.
From the Haunt rules in Game Mastery Guide (https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Haunts&Category=Advanced%20Topics):
"Step 1—Determine Base CR: A haunt’s base CR is equal to 1 + the level of the spell it duplicates."
So without taking other negatives to its CR, that same CR 3 with 13 hp is casting a 0th level spell.
The only CR 3 haunt with 13 hp I could find is Foreboding Mist (https://aonprd.com/Haunts.aspx?ItemName=Foreboding%20Mist), which has the Slow trait (so acts on initiative 0, not 10). If it didn't have Persistent it would only have 6 HP. So to stat it up:
Step 1: Base CR: 1 + 2 (Haunting Mist spell)
Step 2: Other Modifiers(+2 persistent, -2 Slow, -1 Notice DC of 15, +1 Reset 1 hour): CR 3
Step 3: Determine CL = CR
Step 4: HP = CR*4.5(persistent) = 13
Step 5: Calculate Attack/DCs (CR=Attack if needed, DCs determines normally as if cast by an item, DC 13 in this case)
Ultimately this Haunt creates mist in a 20' radius, and DC 13 or 1d2 wisdom damage and shaken. 1d2 Wisdom damage does nothing 50% of the time, since you don't care about ability damage until you reach 2.

Its also important to note that "All primary effects created by a haunt are mind-affecting fear effects, even those that actually produce physical effects. Immunity to fear grants immunity to a haunt’s direct effects, but not to secondary effects that arise as a result of the haunt’s attack." Meaning the paladin doesn't even care even if the haunt drops a meteor swarm.

That's very cool item. I really didn't know about it. Will definitely suggest it to the other players.

Well, there's also Demanding Dead. A failed save against a suggestion could be deadly (assuming the haunt isn't the only threat present)

As for Foreboding Mist, well, it's 1d2 Wis damage, which, like you said does nothing 50% of the time. But it forces a save from every party member and can be triggered multiple times (not likely, but intelligent creatures near the haunt can definitely take advantage of this)

A good point about them being mind-affecting fear effects. I'd skipped this part when I first read about them. This does make them less dangerous.


Like I said, +7 and full ranks, as opposed to another class having +4 and full ranks. Looks like the cleric, despite not having it as a class skill, is BETTER than other classes that DO have it as a class skill. Because, like I said, it's a wisdom skill. :smallamused:


Any cleric without a high perception bonus is probably incapable of even picking decent spells. It’s clearly one of the most critical skills in the game. Most characters max perception whether in class or not because dice are swingy and being surprised sucks and not finding the treasure sucks and failing to locate that invisible enemy’s square sucks. A cleric with no investment other than max ranks and wisdom will be better than almost any other party member, unless there is another wisdom caster. And any cleric who cares can get it as a class skill with a trait and be amazing, as opposed to merely very good. There are maybe half a dozen classes better at it in the game. And the only one that isn’t a wis caster I can think of is the investigator. (Also Druids, Shamans, inquisitors and hunters. Maybe one or two more)

Yes. And I'm sure every cleric is going to leap at the opportunity of spending half their skill ranks on a cross-class skill instead of, say, Diplomacy, Spellcraft, K. Planes, or even K. Religion. You are both correct. Every cleric in Pathfinder has amazing perception bonus. /s

[Arutema]

Yes, haunts are as bad as they sound.

They are a perception check to notice, which is often cross-class for divine casters.

They act on initiative 10 in the surprise round. As dex is often a dump stat for divine casters, they have a good chance of failing to act in time.

And as previously mentioned, they often require more positive energy to neutralize than a single divine caster can manage in one standard action.

So if your cleric or oracle gets in 3 lucky rolls you can avoid them. Those are terrible odds.

[Kurald Galain]

Yes. And I'm sure every cleric is going to leap at the opportunity of spending half their skill ranks on a cross-class skill
Cross-class skills don't exist in PF. What, you seriously never noticed that in the past decade?! :smallbiggrin:

Yes, 3E clerics suck at spot and listen whereas PF clerics excel at perception.

[Kurald Galain]

And as previously mentioned, they often require more positive energy to neutralize than a single divine caster can manage in one standard action.
Yes, a haunt will often get an action off before it's neutralized. How is that a bad thing?

[Gnaeus]

Yes. And I'm sure every cleric is going to leap at the opportunity of spending half their skill ranks on a cross-class skill instead of, say, Diplomacy, Spellcraft, K. Planes, or even K. Religion. You are both correct. Every cleric in Pathfinder has amazing perception bonus. /s

No. Only the competent ones. Those are 4 skills based on tertiary stats (int and Cha). Not one will be as good as perception, even with the class skill bonus. Unless the cleric unusually happens to have invested heavily in int. In which case he also has more skill points. Or the cleric could be human (always a good choice) or use his favored class bonus on skills (clerics don’t have must takes like sorcerers do). In the average party (like, one with a rogue rather than an investigator and a fighter rather than a combat Druid or inquisitor or war priest) the cleric should have the best perception. Get some religion for the RP but leave the knowledge checks to the wizard, who is actually good at them. Being best in team at perception (used regularity) >>> being second best at knowledge planes (used rarely).



Cross-class skills don't exist in PF. What, you seriously never noticed that in the past decade?! :smallbiggrin:

Yes, 3E clerics suck at spot and listen whereas PF clerics excel at perception.

I think he means half of the cleric’s 2 skills per level, not that he is buying cross class ranks at half. Still...

[Aotrs Commander]

I mean, I'm dubious, really, about letting them by attacked at all, given that haunts used in the intended way are explictly a story-telling engine, rather than a trap (at bare minimum, to set atmosphere; sometimes - as in the quest I just wrote, experiencing the haunt is literally the quest exposition).

So really they are the kind of thing you want or straight NEED the players to experience, if you're not just using them as a generic trap. (And if you are, why not just us a generic trap?)

[heavyfuel]

Cross-class skills don't exist in PF. What, you seriously never noticed that in the past decade?! :smallbiggrin:

Yes, 3E clerics suck at spot and listen whereas PF clerics excel at perception.

By cross class I mean "not a class skill", not that you have to spend twice as many ranks like in 3.5. Old habits and whatnot.


I mean, I'm dubious, really, about letting them by attacked at all, given that haunts used in the intended way are explictly a story-telling engine, rather than a trap (at bare minimum, to set atmosphere; sometimes - as in the quest I just wrote, experiencing the haunt is literally the quest exposition).

So really they are the kind of thing you want or straight NEED the players to experience, if you're not just using them as a generic trap. (And if you are, why not just us a generic trap?)

Makes sense to use them as a story-telling device rather than a trap. Still, players need some way of dealing with them, no? I mean, they could very well kill someone

[Maat Mons]

Oracles can be pretty good at Perception, if they want. The Whispered Glimpses revelation of the Intrigue mystery lets them use Cha instead of Wis on Perception and Sense Motive.

The Psychic Searcher archetype gives them an Inspiration pool and the option to take Investigator Talents. Plus, they get free uses of Inspiration on Diplomacy and Sense Motive. So it's a natural pairing with the Intrigue mystery.

[Kris Moonhand]

Anyway, they seem much stronger than regular traps, which can be dealt with in a series of ways. Not only is Trapfinding more common in classes than the ability to channel positive energyUnless you use a lot of 3pp stuff, this just isn't true. Only Rogues and Investigators have Trapfinding normally, with a few archetypes for other classes getting the ability. Meanwhile all divine casters can use positive energy, plus some arcane and psychic casters like Bard, Witch, Spiritualist, Medium, etc. Speaking of Medium, if you're the DM and you're planning on using a lot of haunts and stuff like that, you might want to suggest one of your players play a Medium, since they have a lot of anti-haunt abilities.

[Psyren]

PF Trapfinding is a bit of a misnomer. Everyone can find any trap, even magical ones, if they roll high enough - Trapfinding might be more accurately described as Trapbreaking, since it lets you defeat a trap with a skill check instead of needing to smash it (mechanical) or dispel it (magical).

Back on topic - Holy Water damages haunts too actually, and it does even more damage than the wand option if you aim it properly. Detect evil can find the ideal spot, and then the entire party can chuck flasks for 10d4, enough to deal with pretty much any low-mid level haunt.

[heavyfuel]

Back on topic - Holy Water damages haunts too actually, and it does even more damage than the wand option if you aim it properly. Detect evil can find the ideal spot, and then the entire party can chuck flasks for 10d4, enough to deal with pretty much any low-mid level haunt.

Interesting to know as well. This does fall on the same problem as a Wand of CLW (if you have a different item assigned to your wrist sheath) in that you have to draw it. Does help if you're expecting a haunt

[Firebug]

PF Trapfinding is a bit of a misnomer. Everyone can find any trap, even magical ones, if they roll high enough - Trapfinding might be more accurately described as Trapbreaking, since it lets you defeat a trap with a skill check instead of needing to smash it (mechanical) or dispel it (magical).

Back on topic - Holy Water damages haunts too actually, and it does even more damage than the wand option if you aim it properly. Detect evil can find the ideal spot, and then the entire party can chuck flasks for 10d4, enough to deal with pretty much any low-mid level haunt.Surprisingly, the Rogue archetype Underground Chemist (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Rogue%20Undergroun d%20Chemist)s are really good against haunts (since they can actually quickdraw alchemical items) and Alchemists just slightly less so. Mediums(Champion) are pretty good too, since splash weapons are not spell damage so they get +3(or more). Even more so if they use Haunt Channeler at 3rd. 2d4+Int is enough for the low level haunts especially since there is nothing to say the haunt is immune to sneak attack, so the Underground Chemist gets to tack that on as well. Kinda, Underground Chemist says you have to target a creature and not a square, but haunts are weird in that you aren't targeting a square (since the AC is 10, intersection is AC 5) and aren't exactly creatures. Throw in Bandit (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Rogue%20Bandit) to have a full-round action during the surprise round, two weapon fighting/improved and go to town throwing all the holy waters. I wanted to tie in Hybridization Funnel (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Hybridization% 20Funnel) but Ambrosia (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ambrosia%20(via l)) affects undead and evil outsiders as holy water, and haunts don't count as either.

[Psyren]

Interesting to know as well. This does fall on the same problem as a Wand of CLW (if you have a different item assigned to your wrist sheath) in that you have to draw it. Does help if you're expecting a haunt

Even if you are caught completely off-guard though, it just duplicates a single spell effect when it manifests. Your party can likely soak one fireball, and then figure out what that thing was afterward, readying actions to douse it if it reappears or evacuating the area.

Of course, you could have it duplicate a spell well above what the party can deal with, like fire storm or weird vs a level 2 party, but that's little different than throwing a balor at them - ideally you're designing your encounters to challenge rather than punish.

[Firebug]

However, Persistent on a haunt doesn't just increase its hp modifier... it also makes the spell its linked with trigger each round.
For the haunt I used as an example, the mist doesn't stack with itself... but a new Fireball would trigger each round if that was the linked spell.

Some haunts are persistent, and their immediate effects continue beyond the surprise round into actual full rounds. Persistent haunts continue to trigger their haunt effects once per round on their initiative rank until destroyed or they no longer have a target.

[Aotrs Commander]

Here we run into the problem that PF really did not handle what happens with haunts that shouldn't be persistent, but have effects that last longer than one round.

Nethys says "consider making them be persistant haunts," which isn't all that helpful,m especiallt when you read the original PF haunt designer's forum posts and him saying more or less "add unless otherwise noted" to the 1 round duration.



Oh, thanks for making me realise this and re-calculate all the haunts I did, because "persistant" really wasn't what I wanted, but I wanted them to last longer than one round. I just myself made a new category called "lingering" which just has the duration of the effect last more than one round, but doesn't keep triggering (for +1 CR, since I needed to re-buff the carefully calculated CRs...) Good job I caught that, as I'll be printing all my rules out in the next couple of weeks and I would have said some very rude words.)



From the research in looking all that up, it does sound like later modules and stuff have been using haunts like traps/hazards, and not expositional/atmospheric things and, as I realised with the "persistent" haunt I made with Fireball, can be entirely way too harsh.

I question, to be honest, why 1 minute CL 10 check to reset is equivilent CR increase to "automatically activates each round" when you come down to it, that really sounds like the latter ought to be +3, not +2, or 1 minute reset is valued too highly...