Sorcerer Class Feature [Brain Storm] [5e]

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I love the Sorcerer, it is one of the best designed magic classes in 5e as it actually gets class features outside of "spellcasting" as part of the base class.

However, I find metamagics and flexible casting to be really limited. I'm ok with them having less spells known, as I see doing more with less as a fun way to play a class when you have dynamic options to work with.

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Invading Metamagics

At 9th level you gain the ability to infuse metamagics into the spells around you. As a reaction to a willing creature casting a spell within 30' of you, you may apply a metamagic option you know to the spell. You must expend the sorcery points as normal. You choose any additional targets or effects of the metamagic.

Starting at 15th level, you may use this feature even if the creature casting the spell isn't willing.

You must not be incapacitated and you must be able to see the caster to use Invading Metamagics.


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First question I bet is "why would you metamagic an enemy spell". Well, if you twin a buff, you can target an ally! If you twin a debuff, you can target the caster with their own spell! Use Careful on an enemy spell to help save an ally from danger!

But, shouldn't this cost more? Nah. SP is in short supply already, even with flexible casting, and this helps make up for the lack of spells know. This makes a Sorcerer an absolute beast at 15th level... As every class should be!

I could see this being a short rest refresh mechanic, but the fact that it costs SP and your reaction makes it steep, no subtle counter spell for you!

To be completely fair and honest, my groups don't go past level 10 all that often, so when we do we make the most of it and we may optimize a bit more than normal so our ideas of power characters could be skewed.

[Segev]

This feels like something that should be on a subclass, rather than a universal ability. Maybe even on the Wild Magic Sorcerer. Whether as an add-on or an alternate feature, I am unsure.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

This feels like something that should be on a subclass, rather than a universal ability. Maybe even on the Wild Magic Sorcerer. Whether as an add-on or an alternate feature, I am unsure.

That's fair, though I think the base Sorcerer should be chaotic in nature.

The Sorcerer is one of those classes that are almost perfect, just I think it needs a little OOMPH to get over the hump.

[Segev]

That's fair, though I think the base Sorcerer should be chaotic in nature.

The Sorcerer is one of those classes that are almost perfect, just I think it needs a little OOMPH to get over the hump.

The base sorcerer being made chaotic in nature may make it more appealing to you, but would diminish its appeal to others. This is why I think it would be better as a subclass feature; it enables people to pick and choose.

From where you put it, you feel Sorcerer is okay for its level up until mid-to-high level play, I take it? Because you give it "a little OOMPH" at level 9, but no sooner.

This ability is also heavily dependent, at least at level 9, on party members. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it does make it..lesser. You also need to be pretty creative to make it worthwhile with the use on hostile mages' spells.



On a note just focusing on mechanical weirdness, how do you envision a sorcerer using this to give Subtle Spell to another mage's casting? The other mage is already going through the casting motions.



It looks to me - and I could be wrong - like you want to see Sorcerers do more with metamagic, and that you feel that would be enough "OOMPH" to get them to where they should be. Is that right?

Edit to add:

You might want to consider whether adding more metamagic options would do the trick. Obviously, it won't make any one Sorcerer more powerful, but it would give them more choices in how to customize, and might open some new synergies.

Off the top of my head:

Elemental Transformation. You may spend 2 SP to change a spell that deals acid, cold, fire, or lightning damage to dealing a different type. If the spell deals more than one type, you must spend 2 SP per type you wish to change. If you spend 2 SP plus the level of the spell, you may instead double the damage dealt, leaving half the doubled amount as the normal type, and the other half of the chosen type. Dragon-blooded Sorcerers who are changing to or adding their associated element may apply this metamagic for one fewer SP.

Hijack Spell. When another spellcaster you can see and hear casts a spell, you may spend one SP as a reaction to force the spellcaster to make a Charisma save against your spell DC. If he succeeds, he casts his spell normally. If he fails, you are forced to spend a number of additional SP equal to the spell level minus 1. If you don't have enough, you spend no more and his spell is cast normally. If you do, however, you make all the choices regarding the spell as if you were the caster: targets, variable effects (e.g. what a polymorph turns the target into), etc. It uses your spell save or spell attack bonus, but the original caster is still the source. Touch spells can still leap to anybody in the original caster's reach using your spell attack bonus on the attack roll.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The base sorcerer being made chaotic in nature may make it more appealing to you, but would diminish its appeal to others. This is why I think it would be better as a subclass feature; it enables people to pick and choose.

From where you put it, you feel Sorcerer is okay for its level up until mid-to-high level play, I take it? Because you give it "a little OOMPH" at level 9, but no sooner.

This ability is also heavily dependent, at least at level 9, on party members. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it does make it..lesser. You also need to be pretty creative to make it worthwhile with the use on hostile mages' spells.



On a note just focusing on mechanical weirdness, how do you envision a sorcerer using this to give Subtle Spell to another mage's casting? The other mage is already going through the casting motions.



It looks to me - and I could be wrong - like you want to see Sorcerers do more with metamagic, and that you feel that would be enough "OOMPH" to get them to where they should be. Is that right?

Edit to add:

You might want to consider whether adding more metamagic options would do the trick. Obviously, it won't make any one Sorcerer more powerful, but it would give them more choices in how to customize, and might open some new synergies.

Off the top of my head:

Elemental Transformation. You may spend 2 SP to change a spell that deals acid, cold, fire, or lightning damage to dealing a different type. If the spell deals more than one type, you must spend 2 SP per type you wish to change. If you spend 2 SP plus the level of the spell, you may instead double the damage dealt, leaving half the doubled amount as the normal type, and the other half of the chosen type. Dragon-blooded Sorcerers who are changing to or adding their associated element may apply this metamagic for one fewer SP.

Hijack Spell. When another spellcaster you can see and hear casts a spell, you may spend one SP as a reaction to force the spellcaster to make a Charisma save against your spell DC. If he succeeds, he casts his spell normally. If he fails, you are forced to spend a number of additional SP equal to the spell level minus 1. If you don't have enough, you spend no more and his spell is cast normally. If you do, however, you make all the choices regarding the spell as if you were the caster: targets, variable effects (e.g. what a polymorph turns the target into), etc. It uses your spell save or spell attack bonus, but the original caster is still the source. Touch spells can still leap to anybody in the original caster's reach using your spell attack bonus on the attack roll.

I think the sorcerer needs it because so many people look at the sorcerer and say "oh, wizard's little brother". The current sorcerer isn't enough.

Giving the a Sorcerer a fluff niche with some mechanics that greatly distinguishes it from the wizard will help. Make people afraid of their weird magic, give them a stigma, give them proficiency in disguise kit (and give them a fake spellbook). Make the class about wanting to blend in and make people think they're wizards, so they stay safe. Play with people's expectation.

I'm not saying to make the base sorcerer roll on tables or have random effects, just have it "break the rules" more than it already does. Make them a bit chaotic in battle, like, a caster is going to cast but a Sorcerer may cast or may be changing spells of others.

Magic in WotC D&D has always been about breaking the rules, the current wizard also gets to break a lot of rules. The big difference is that the wizard was made to be a generic caster so the sorcerer needs to not be so close to the same thing.

It would be like having the Fighter and Barbarian be pretty much the same class and not give the barbarian rage... I'm all for the barbarian being a subclass of a fighter, but it still needs rage and other barbarian features to make it more niche.

I think your hijack spell would make for a great high level feature, but a lower level feature allowing you to enhance ally spells, that didn't require a Cha Save, would be great too.

Kinda like when you see two casters team up, or like maybe something from Avatar (TLAB) where two benders two up (fire rocks?).

[Segev]

I get what you’re saying. I think the creator’s agree with you, and that metamagic is supposed to be how they get their rules breaking thing. So really, more metamagic options is the place I would start.

If there are enough choices, you could even try adding extra picks. I wouldn’t do that first, though, lest every sorcerer have the same list.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I get what you’re saying. I think the creator’s agree with you, and that metamagic is supposed to be how they get their rules breaking thing. So really, more metamagic options is the place I would start.

If there are enough choices, you could even try adding extra picks. I wouldn’t do that first, though, lest every sorcerer have the same list.

Oh yeah, definitely, just I didn't think metamagic went far enough to get out of the wizard's shadow.

I probably would have made metamagic free for Cantrips, some starting at later levels (such as twin). Would have expanded their spell list to include spells that wizards can't normally get. Also, would have expanded what you can do with metamagic (help/hindering allies).

Honestly, the sorcerer being the best at cantrips could work well...

The devs obviously put a lot of stock in metamagic, which I love metamagic, but they left the rest of the sorcerer alone and it hurt the class.

[Amechra]

An idea I've been toying with involves making Sorcerers the best at upcasting spells. To the point of maybe even making them a half-caster+ like the Artificer who just happens to be able to cast their spells as if they were 1-4 levels higher.

I was also thinking of doing some Bard-style where Sorcerers get [Con] Sorcery Points which originally recharge on a long rest (but switch over to a short rest at 5th level). Metamagic and other sorcery point things would have to be cheaper, obviously.

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Honestly, I actually don't like the whole "spend spell slots to make sorcery points or vice-versa" thing the Sorcerer has going on. I think it's overly messy, and that there's probably a better way to convey the whole "really flexible with their spellcasting" thing.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

An idea I've been toying with involves making Sorcerers the best at upcasting spells. To the point of maybe even making them a half-caster+ like the Artificer who just happens to be able to cast their spells as if they were 1-4 levels higher.

I was also thinking of doing some Bard-style where Sorcerers get [Con] Sorcery Points which originally recharge on a long rest (but switch over to a short rest at 5th level). Metamagic and other sorcery point things would have to be cheaper, obviously.

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Honestly, I actually don't like the whole "spend spell slots to make sorcery points or vice-versa" thing the Sorcerer has going on. I think it's overly messy, and that there's probably a better way to convey the whole "really flexible with their spellcasting" thing.

I love the idea of the sorcerer being a half caster, actually I think half casters are a better design than a full caster due to having strong class features that give each class a niche and flavor.

I think what I'm going to do with my groups is playtest the idea of a Sorcerer who gets all their spell slots as metamagic and then is given Cantrips from any class list. Some metamagics need to be changed up and more need to be added... Plus there needs to be some class features to boost the Cantrips in some way... But I think a master of cantrips could work well. Especially if you give the sorcerer a subclass that gives them spell slots.

I'm with you, I don't like the fiddly parts of flexible casting.

Maybe a half caster, with m che and cool class features, who can gain a subclass that removes their spell slots in favor of more SP (not at will, just entirely).

Edit: I did some quick calculations and if the core 10th level sorcerer put all spells into sorcery points (throughout the day, can have only 10 at a time) you would have...

Base: 10

1st: 4 = 4
2nd: 3 = 6
3rd: 3 = 9
4th: 3 = 12
5th 2 = 10

51 SP per day to play with Cantrips... That's a lot. Say we're a dragon sorcerer, because yeah chaos is... Eh...

Anyways...

Firebolt does 2d10 + cha damage

Quicken: additional 2d10 + Cha damage

Empower to give a better average, say instead of 5.5 (6), it's a 6.5 (7) . For giggles we have a +5 charisma modifier. V Human gives us Elemental Adept (so 1 = 2 and ignore resistance which should raise the average roll but I'll stick with 7).

~28 + 10 = 38 damage for 4 SP. One of those SP you only use after the roll, so with Elemental Adept you're working pretty good.

What can the level 10 cantrip sorcerer kill? Easily? Ignoring crits.

Well, some CR 2 are close to being one shot, which ain't too impressive. CR 3 has the phase spider which is most likely dead if both hit. It takes 3 rounds to kill a black pudding (cr 4)... CR 7 Stone Giant has 126 HP, that will take this sorcerer 3 to 4 rounds to kill... That's not too bad actually, for using just Cantrips and no higher level spells.

A Deva has 136 HP.... That's 3.5 or 4 rounds. Now a Deva will probably beat the sorcerer down in 1v1 but still, not too bad. Deva is CR 10

I would like to see how a class performs that doesn't have SP (50/day at level 10 is gonna be basically the same) or Spellcasting of 1st and above. Has metamagics with the stipulation of 1/spell as normal. But has an expanded cantrip list.

Extended Thorn whip into a quicken shocking Grasp?

Twin resistance + quicken empowered firebolt?

Empowered Twin Vicious Mockery + Empowered Vicious Mockery = insulting god.

Hmmm I think this doesn't need to be a sorcerer... But this could be fun.