Mindlink power with multiple targets

[FriendlyTemplar]

My group is having a disagreement on the psionic power Mindlink. Some of the group insists that, even when it’s augmented to have multiple targets, it’s still only a two-way connection between the Manifester and each target based on how it is written. The other part of the group insists that it should function identically to Telepathic Bond which says all targets have connection with each other. The two powers are written almost identically, so should Mindlink work like Telepathic Bond exactly or should it be a bunch of two-way connections to the Manifester?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Given that communication is instant and there's no room for miscommunication since it's the understanding of the idea being transferred directly from one mind to the other, this question is largely academic since there is no functional difference between two allies communicating directly versus using the manifester as a relay.

The only other potential concern is the strategic concern that the whole network goes offline if the manifester is killed or rendered unconscious.

I tend to read things strictly so I'd go with the manifester as a relay interpretation, personally.

[EisenKreutzer]

I’d rule it as strictly two way, but the manifester can of course pass the message on so in practice theres not much difference.
EDIT: I’m currently reading The Verdant Passage, the first Dark Sun novel, and theres a scene where this exact thing more or less happens. Rikus is communicating with a gaj, which is capable of mind link but the communication is with one person at a time and Rikus has to repeat what the gaj says to his companions. In this case the gaj doesn’t relay anything and only communicates with Rikus, but it is made clear that it can communicate with anyone it chooses.
Of course, this is a 90’s novel based on AD&D psionics, but it’s kind of funny that I just read this passage in the book before reading this post.

[Segev]

As worded, the players saying that it is two-way with the manifester only are correct. If you wish to make it an open channel that everyone can "hear" and "speak" on, that's a house rule that I don't think is broken, but is something to keep (heh) in mind. If you feel it's an upgrade, you might make a custom augmentation for it, though I don't know how you'd price it.


Given that communication is instant and there's no room for miscommunication since it's the understanding of the idea being transferred directly from one mind to the other, this question is largely academic since there is no functional difference between two allies communicating directly versus using the manifester as a relay.

The only other potential concern is the strategic concern that the whole network goes offline if the manifester is killed or rendered unconscious.

I tend to read things strictly so I'd go with the manifester as a relay interpretation, personally.

No, there are significant differences. First off, if the manifester is serving as a relay, he actually has to play go-between. "Bob, Alice says we should try the forest path. Charlotte says we should go over the river. What do you say?" Then, when Bob responds, he has to tell Alice and Charlotte what Bob said. Individually. MAYBE he can play re-broadcast and think at all parties at once, but then he still has to play relay and repeat what each "say" back to him for everyone else.

That's cumbersome. You've seen it in comedic scenes where two characters are juvenilely refusing to talk to each other, and tell a go-between, "Go tell so-and-so that he should do such-and-such!" "Oh, he said that, did he? Well, you go tell him that he can such-and-such his own whozamajig!"

Now, the other side of this: it's a lot of power and responsibility for the manifester. What if he messes up a message? Forgets to relay to the right person? Worse, what if he's nefarious, and actively lies about what others have said? Then again, it also lets him try to smooth over things if party members are saying nasty things about each other and expecting him to relay them.

The point is, what's shared is entirely his choice, unless they start talking to each other outside the Mindlink.

[FriendlyTemplar]

Thanks everyone who answered so far!

[Crichton]

EDIT: I’m currently reading The Verdant Passage, the first Dark Sun novel, and theres a scene where this exact thing more or less happens. Rikus is communicating with a gaj, which is capable of mind link but the communication is with one person at a time and Rikus has to repeat what the gaj says to his companions. In this case the gaj doesn’t relay anything and only communicates with Rikus, but it is made clear that it can communicate with anyone it chooses.
Of course, this is a 90’s novel based on AD&D psionics, but it’s kind of funny that I just read this passage in the book before reading this post.

If we're looking to D&D novels for help making this decision(since RAW isn't so clear), the Forgotten Realms novels in the Erevis Cale Trilogy, by Paul Kemp, have a psionic character in them named Magadon.

In them, Magadon uses what is presumably Mindlink (never named, but pretty specifically described, including duration) to link a party of 4, including himself, and they can all 'speak' to each other mentally, not just to Magadon's mind. These novels takes place during the 3.0/3.5 period of the Forgotten Realms' history.

[Darg]

For every additional power point you spend, this power can affect an additional target. Any additional target cannot be more than 15 feet from another target of the power.

Logically speaking, if the manifester acted as a relay then the distance would be based on the distance of the manifester to the targets. Instead you have a limit based on the entirety of the group of targets.

With that in mind, it's not even a leap or against RAI to read it as a group thought transmission. Augment would change this line:


You forge a telepathic bond with your target.

To this:


You forge a telepathic bond with your targets.

[EisenKreutzer]

If we're looking to D&D novels for help making this decision(since RAW isn't so clear), the Forgotten Realms novels in the Erevis Cale Trilogy, by Paul Kemp, have a psionic character in them named Magadon.

In them, Magadon uses what is presumably Mindlink (never named, but pretty specifically described, including duration) to link a party of 4, including himself, and they can all 'speak' to each other mentally, not just to Magadon's mind. These novels takes place during the 3.0/3.5 period of the Forgotten Realms' history.

Obviously using novels as sources for rules desicions is a terrible idea. I only brought it up because I had just read a part of the book that more or less involved this topic.

[Crichton]

Obviously using novels as sources for rules desicions is a terrible idea. I only brought it up because I had just read a part of the book that more or less involved this topic.

I don't know if 'terrible' is apt, here, though obviously, yes, novels aren't rules texts. But in a situation where the actual rules offer 2 equally valid interpretations and a DM has to choose one, why not use them to aid in inspiration as to which to choose? It's not like this is a particularly crucial decision for power or balance or anything.

[EisenKreutzer]

I don't know if 'terrible' is apt, here, though obviously, yes, novels aren't rules texts. But in a situation where the actual rules offer 2 equally valid interpretations and a DM has to choose one, why not use them to aid in inspiration as to which to choose? It's not like this is a particularly crucial decision for power or balance or anything.

Thats true, I suppose. Being inspired by fiction is a huge part of what we do anyway, right? And D&D novels are largely based on actual game material, even if authors sometimes take pretty huge liberties with it.

[RatElemental]

No, there are significant differences. First off, if the manifester is serving as a relay, he actually has to play go-between. "Bob, Alice says we should try the forest path. Charlotte says we should go over the river. What do you say?" Then, when Bob responds, he has to tell Alice and Charlotte what Bob said. Individually. MAYBE he can play re-broadcast and think at all parties at once, but then he still has to play relay and repeat what each "say" back to him for everyone else.

That's cumbersome. You've seen it in comedic scenes where two characters are juvenilely refusing to talk to each other, and tell a go-between, "Go tell so-and-so that he should do such-and-such!" "Oh, he said that, did he? Well, you go tell him that he can such-and-such his own whozamajig!"

Now, the other side of this: it's a lot of power and responsibility for the manifester. What if he messes up a message? Forgets to relay to the right person? Worse, what if he's nefarious, and actively lies about what others have said? Then again, it also lets him try to smooth over things if party members are saying nasty things about each other and expecting him to relay them.

The point is, what's shared is entirely his choice, unless they start talking to each other outside the Mindlink.

Maybe, but when you're actually at the table, and Alice says "I think we should go through the forest," and Charlotte says "I think we should go over the river," Bob can just say "I relay these messages verbatim to everyone else" and it's effectively the same as if you'd just made the power a chat room. If Bob is nefarious the group has bigger problems, but letting him say "I relay that message to everyone else, except for the part about what Charlotte said Alice should do with her sword hilt," is actually a buff.

[Segev]

Maybe, but when you're actually at the table, and Alice says "I think we should go through the forest," and Charlotte says "I think we should go over the river," Bob can just say "I relay these messages verbatim to everyone else" and it's effectively the same as if you'd just made the power a chat room. If Bob is nefarious the group has bigger problems, but letting him say "I relay that message to everyone else, except for the part about what Charlotte said Alice should do with her sword hilt," is actually a buff.

And I have no problem with that. My point is that it is different, and while I'm sure the players can and will gloss over the inconvenience of playing telephone through the psion, it's there, technically, by the RAW. And can lead to different results.

For one thing, if the psion is KO'd, nobody can relay. Whereas in a telepathic bond situation, the spell doesn't go down just because the caster's out, and since everyone is broadcasting to everyone else, they still have open channels.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No, there are significant differences. First off, if the manifester is serving as a relay, he actually has to play go-between. "Bob, Alice says we should try the forest path. Charlotte says we should go over the river. What do you say?" Then, when Bob responds, he has to tell Alice and Charlotte what Bob said. Individually. MAYBE he can play re-broadcast and think at all parties at once, but then he still has to play relay and repeat what each "say" back to him for everyone else.

That's cumbersome. You've seen it in comedic scenes where two characters are juvenilely refusing to talk to each other, and tell a go-between, "Go tell so-and-so that he should do such-and-such!" "Oh, he said that, did he? Well, you go tell him that he can such-and-such his own whozamajig!"

Except it's -not- cumbersome at all. Telepathy removes all of the problems of linguistic communication, explicitly. Thought comes in, thought goes out, exactly as the original sender intended precisely because that's how telepathy works. There is -no- possibility of miscommunication and it's not full on surface thought reading so only what's intended to send gets sent.


Now, the other side of this: it's a lot of power and responsibility for the manifester.

What else is new?


What if he messes up a message?

Not possible. That's just not how telepathy works. It's not words in your head, it's the concept you would normally describe with words, transmitted directly from one mind to the other. That's why it's not language dependent.


Forgets to relay to the right person?

Maybe, if you're trying to network dozens of people rather than just yourself and the 3 - 5 other people in a typical party, that could happen. Even then, though, it's as simple as -thinking- "I need to pass this note that was just handed to me to someone that is effectively right here next to me." And this is being handled by someone who's one of the smartest people you've ever even imagined that can think hard enough to bend reality around him.


Worse, what if he's nefarious, and actively lies about what others have said? Then again, it also lets him try to smooth over things if party members are saying nasty things about each other and expecting him to relay them.

Now -that- is a legitimate concern. That comes down to "how much do you trust the psion?" it's not hard to pick out if somebody lies to you with any frequency and omitting unimportant and impolitic asides is pretty much pure upside.


The point is, what's shared is entirely his choice, unless they start talking to each other outside the Mindlink.

Yeah. That's only a problem if the player chooses to make it one though. Presuming he doesn't, the functional difference between the OP's two interpretations isn't terribly important. We're just splitting hairs.


Logically speaking, if the manifester acted as a relay then the distance would be based on the distance of the manifester to the targets. Instead you have a limit based on the entirety of the group of targets.

With that in mind, it's not even a leap or against RAI to read it as a group thought transmission. Augment would change this line:



To this:

Gotta read the full description, my dude. The listed range is for establishing the link. Once it's been established, it works across any distance on the same plane.

[Dimers]

The OP didn't specify RAW, so Imma say the only correct answer is "whichever is more fun for the group." I've actually played it both ways in different groups. One that decided on the need to relay was memorable because it also put a limit on verbal communication as a "free" action. Mind or mouth, either way your train of thought can only move so far in six seconds.

[Segev]

Where in the rules does it say that mindlink makes you better able to transmit and manage information than normal? That telepathy (not that mindlink ever calls itself that) enables flawless, error-free, and effortless relating of thoughts?

That it’s any easier than managing a chat program where you can’t copy / paste and can’t make a group chat and you’re the only guy that anybody else can chat with?

Sure, it’s faster than retyping, but you have to still do the transmission, yourself, in your own thoughts, because you don’t have the ability to connect the other guy’s thoughts directly to the intended recipient. At best, you can send to multiple simultaneously, and nothing in the rules nor how human minds work suggests you can multitask different messages to specific people, so such would be a “broadcast” that still none know for sure you’re sending to all (though they might assume), and while you can hear multiple incoming messages at once, what suggests in the rules that this is clearer than if multiple people talked at you simultaneously, each with their own message and intended recipient?

[Crichton]

Yeah, I think I disagree with Segev that the text is clear unambiguous RAW that you only get individual links. Mindlink's text doesn't really specify one way or the other, which is enough ambiguity for me to say that, given the fact that it's a Telepath Discipline power, and also that its text is clearly copied and adapted from Telepathic Bond, it's supposed to be a group-chat style communication, just like Telepathic Bond is.


From the balance standpoint:
Yes, it's lower level than TB, but it's also not only a psionic power (psions really *should* be better than arcane casters at facilitating mental communication), but also a Telepath Discipline power (literally no one else is supposed to be better than Telepaths at doing telepathic things). And you can't even connect as many participants as Telepathic Bond until level 4, at least, and even then it's with a shorter duration.

So yeah, I'm gonna say that my call is that Mindlink is intended to be a versatile mental communication power whose text was adapted from Telepathic Bond to give it that added versatility and work with the psionic augment system to allow it to start at lower levels, and that its rules text also allows for this to be legal.

[Darg]

If it makes anyone feel any better, the power description doesn't actually specify whether the target could communicate back; communication isn't necessarily a two way street. In that sense, you could forcefully trade information by giving up information that is trivial if you want to use the two way street version of communication.

All this is predicated on the implication that "You can communicate telepathically through the bond..." only specifies that the manifester can communicate through the bond itself. This is unlike telepathy in general which explicitly says that two creatures can communicate with each other.


Gotta read the full description, my dude. The listed range is for establishing the link. Once it's been established, it works across any distance on the same plane.

Doh!

[Dimers]

If it makes anyone feel any better, the power description doesn't actually specify whether the target could communicate back

Technically true but heavily weighted against. The word "with" in the first sentence suggests two-way communication, but more crucially, the second "you" in the second sentence is necessarily plural -- one person can't share a language; it's like being between one thing.

Regardless, I like that you're willing to reconsider RAW to burst a bubble or two. :smallsmile:

[Segev]

Yeah, I think I disagree with Segev that the text is clear unambiguous RAW that you only get individual links. Mindlink's text doesn't really specify one way or the other, which is enough ambiguity for me to say that, given the fact that it's a Telepath Discipline power, and also that its text is clearly copied and adapted from Telepathic Bond, it's supposed to be a group-chat style communication, just like Telepathic Bond is.


From the balance standpoint:
Yes, it's lower level than TB, but it's also not only a psionic power (psions really *should* be better than arcane casters at facilitating mental communication), but also a Telepath Discipline power (literally no one else is supposed to be better than Telepaths at doing telepathic things). And you can't even connect as many participants as Telepathic Bond until level 4, at least, and even then it's with a shorter duration.

So yeah, I'm gonna say that my call is that Mindlink is intended to be a versatile mental communication power whose text was adapted from Telepathic Bond to give it that added versatility and work with the psionic augment system to allow it to start at lower levels, and that its rules text also allows for this to be legal.

From a balance and fun standpoint, I have no issue with Mindlink working like telepathic bond when linking more than one creature. I do not see support in the text for it linking creatures to anybody but the manifester, however.

"It doesn't say it doesn't do this, so it does," is not valid reading. It spells out what it does. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/mindlink/)


You forge a telepathic bond with your target. You can communicate telepathically through the bond even if you do not share a common language. No special power or influence is established as a result of the bond. Once the bond is formed, it works over any distance (although not from one plane to another).

This is the unaugmented version, obviously. But it specifies that you forge a telepathic bond with your target. So there is a bond with the two of you.

Now, let's look at the relevant augmentation:


For every additional power point you spend, this power can affect an additional target. Any additional target cannot be more than 15 feet from another target of the power.

So, you can, for example, spend 1 pp extra to affect 2 targets.

Let's reparse this the way it would read if it allowed two targets:


You forge a telepathic bond with your two targets. You can communicate telepathically through the bond even if you do not share a common language. No special power or influence is established as a result of the bond. Once the bond is formed, it works over any distance (although not from one plane to another).

You know? Reading this reparsing, I actually have changed my mind. "You forge a telepathic bond with your targets," with no context that there was ever a single-target version, combined with the language following about how the bond allows communication, would suggest a mutual bond, not just a hub-and-spoke thing.

So, yeah, it does look like multitarget Mindlink should be everyone in the bond to everyone in the bond.

This does raise a question as to whether you can restrict who gets what message, though.

[Darg]

Technically true but heavily weighted against. The word "with" in the first sentence suggests two-way communication, but more crucially, the second "you" in the second sentence is necessarily plural -- one person can't share a language; it's like being between one thing.

Regardless, I like that you're willing to reconsider RAW to burst a bubble or two. :smallsmile:

I thought it was fun. The plurality of "you," if considered, would imply that everyone could communicate together and the debate is over with the description's wording. This however does go against the standard vocabulary of other spells and powers.

I do have to argue that the "with" in the first sentence strictly pertains to the bond itself though. This is why there is a second sentence explaining what the bond does. Due to the unclear definition of "you" and "communicate" I believe by strict RAW that the manifester can use the power in any fashion deigned by ambiguity as long as they define them at the casting. Woohoo, psionics OP buff. Thanks imprecise language. Did they release the definition in spanish officially? We could find out which "you" they were using. Wait, were any of the books officially translated to other languages?


This does raise a question as to whether you can restrict who gets what message, though.

It's telepathy. If there is no relaying, then it's like speaking out loud, but with your mind.