Starting a new game and looking for advice.

[GorogIrongut]

So, I've been asked to DM by a group of people and I think I've got enough time to dedicate to it. That said, I've found the character creation rules for 5e to be... lacking. So I'm soliciting your advice on the following. Is it too restrictive? Does it provide more customizability without being overly fiddly? Thanks in advance.


1. There are 4 levels of Priority. A B C D. In these you allocate Attributes, Magic, Resources, and Skills. You may only have one thing in each level of priority.

Attributes
Attributes Points always allocated via the Point Buy System
A 36 Ability Points (17 is the highest starting score you can have not counting other modifiers.)
B 31 Ability Points (16 is the highest starting score you can have not counting other modifiers.)
C 27 Ability Points (15 is the highest starting score you can have not counting other modifiers.)
D 24 ability points (14 is the highest starting score you can have not counting other modifiers.)

Score Cost
8 0
9 1
10 2
11 3
12 4
13 5
14 7
15 9
16 11
17 13


Magic:
A You are a full caster and are able to multi class into whatever kind of casters you choose.
B You may choose a class that is a half caster. At a later date you may multi class into a full caster. No less than 5 levels later and only if appropriate to what is happening in game.
C You are not currently a caster. At some later date you may multi class into a half caster. No less than 5 levels later and only if appropriate to what is happening in game.
D You are as mundane as they come and you will always remain mundane. No magic for you, ever. Not even Magic Initiate.

Resources: This is dependent on the wealth standards of your particular world and will need to be tailored by the DM.
A The equivalent of a low level millionaire. Not a billionaire. You may start off with one extra purchased magical item approved by your GM above and beyond what the GM has already approved generally.
B You own nice things
C Barely making ends meet. You are unable to create a character from an exotic race.
D Hobo. All items you own are considered to be of poor quality and will fail... soon. DM may make exceptions for a particular item of equipment needed to further your story arc. You are unable to create a character from an exotic or monster race.

Skills
A You get 3 extra skills beyond those already allocated. One of these counts as having expertise. You may take a free feat at first level.
B You get 2 extra skills beyond those already allocated. One of these counts as having expertise.
C No change to any of your allocated skills.
D Your starting class and background skills are reduced by 2. You don't pick things up quickly and thus have difficulty multi classing. Consult with your DM how to appropriately convey this. This could be an absolute ban on multi classing if the DM is harsh.

So, you may choose to be a Wizard (magic in slot a), but then you have to decide what you're then willing to sacrifice. Will you have hobo levels of poverty to enable you to have some attributes and skills? Or maybe you could care less about magic and want to have all the shinies. So you put Resources in A and Magic in D. In many cases, whatever is allocated to Tier D comes with firm negative consequences so this isn't all about pluses. The player has to ponder the positives and negatives.


2. Attribute boosts:
-Strength adds a +1 to hp for every +2 to their strength modifier, rounded up.
-Intelligence grants further skills or languages for each +1 to their intelligence modifier.


3. There is a 7th attribute called Sanity. This is worked out as follows:
Sanity Score = Int+Wis+Cha/3. You may add half your proficiency score for to any Sanity check for each Save Proficiency that you have in Int/Wis/Cha.


4. Your player starts off the game with a free, published racial feat. Or a free feat from the below list. Should you want to take a feat not listed (i.e. UA, etc.), consult with the DM but have your roleplay reasoning ready to explain why you should get it.
Actor Charger
Dual Wielder Dungeon Delver
Durable Grappler
Healer Keen Mind
Lightly Armoured Linguist
Moderately Armoured Savage Attacker
Skilled Skulker
Tavern Brawler Weapon Master

[Zetakya]

You'll get lots of 36 point buy Variant Human Warlocks and Paladins.

[GorogIrongut]

You'll get lots of 36 point buy Variant Human Warlocks and Paladins.
Warlocks are full casters as WotC has said many times. As for VHuman paladins willing to nuke their other skills and resources, they'll be hobo paladins with no armour and having a hard time outside of combat.

My DM'ing style tends to run towards realism. So I run 6 encounters of varying difficulty a day evenly split between combat, skill and social with none of them more important than the other. A failure at social or skill challenges is just as devastating as losing a fight.

[Quoz]

An interesting concept.

Is the boost to HP from high strength once only or per level, like con modifier?

I feel like for D&D your restriction on magic will run into some problems. How will you handle 1/3 casters like EK or AT? Is monk Ki or other magic that isnt spellcasting permitted under your mundane options? Nearly every class has some kind of magic option. Forcing wizards and sorcerers into lower tiers for every other choice will really effect game balance.

So a V. Human with priority A skills gets 3 feats to start the game. And with half feats getting a starting score of 20 will not be unrealistic. I could start as an elf monk with Dex 20 and elven accuracy. This setup will have a lot of very high power builds.

If you are looking for a system with high power levels and a more intricate character build system, why not just go with Shadowrun? I'm guessing that's where most of your inspiration for this is coming from.

[Demonslayer666]

I like the idea here (Shadowrun), but magic is not that powerful of an option, like Qouz said.

How do you plan on making social interactions as resource dependent as a fight? Can't the non-face characters rely on the face?

[Hail Tempus]

There's a lot going on here, and I'm not sure it adds anything other than complexity.

What are you trying to accomplish here? The character creation rules are intended to be pretty streamlined to allow people to roll up characters and start playing, rather than spending hours agonizing over choices.

[GorogIrongut]

An interesting concept.

Is the boost to HP from high strength once only or per level, like con modifier?

I feel like for D&D your restriction on magic will run into some problems. How will you handle 1/3 casters like EK or AT? Is monk Ki or other magic that isnt spellcasting permitted under your mundane options? Nearly every class has some kind of magic option. Forcing wizards and sorcerers into lower tiers for every other choice will really effect game balance.

So a V. Human with priority A skills gets 3 feats to start the game. And with half feats getting a starting score of 20 will not be unrealistic. I could start as an elf monk with Dex 20 and elven accuracy. This setup will have a lot of very high power builds.

If you are looking for a system with high power levels and a more intricate character build system, why not just go with Shadowrun? I'm guessing that's where most of your inspiration for this is coming from.

You are very correct that this is an attempt to port a bit of character creation over from Shadowrun. A gaming system that I love and find to be much more balanced and customizable than Dnd. It's problem is that it becomes too fiddly. If done correctly, you have to use a stupid amount of books and in the past I've seen players need to pull out a calculator to finish making a character. I don't want to port that aspect into 5e.

As for your questions/comments:
1. The hp from strength was an attempt to strengthen one of the weaker stats. In particular fighter characters are considered weaker in the long run than full casters. This is also a small attempt to balance the martial/magic user balance. This hp bonus occurs per level.
2. As already mentioned martials are considered weaker than full casters. Which is why I'm putting this in as a small tax to be one.
That said, it's not a major deal. The difference between A & B level Attributes is no more than a couple extra point of character stats, which fits well within what would be expected if your players rolled stats for their characters. Thanks for bringing to my attention that I hadn't included 1/3 casters to the Tier C category. Monks are considered martials and have nothing to do with the magic system despite their ki.
3. You are correct. This setup should lead to slightly stronger characters than you would normally get from the standard character creation in the PHB. That's intentional. I like my characters feeling special and powerful. The ability to customize and the slight boost accomplishes this for me. My hope is that opening things like this will widen the array of powerful characters that I see (especially MAD) instead of just seeing the same boring ones over and over again.

[Keravath]

An interesting idea.

You will get a lot of paladin/warlock and paladin/sorcerer builds with 36 points to start. Variant human for the extra feat and non-exotic race. Your system is set up to strongly favor this type of build. Eldritch knight/wizard, fighter/rogues. Almost everyone would start with the 36 points to build the character unless they really want to be a full caster. The system strongly favors certain builds over others due to the additional level of optimization.

The resource category is almost useless since it will only affect the starting character. One of the key elements of adventuring is earning coin. Unless you turn this into a tax which will turn off a lot of players, starting with low resources isn't much of a penalty since the basic game starts the characters with low resources. In addition, starting as a "millionaire" is also useless since the DM won't provide things to spend your coin on without unbalancing the game. "Oh, I hire 100 mercenaries to come with me on my adventures because I can afford it. I can't? What is the point of being wealthy except hiring retainers ... there isn't much else useful to spend my money on."

However, I have to ask how much 5e you've played? Some of these changes like starting with a 17 stat and free feats means characters may start at level 1 with 20 in their primary stat. This means that everyone will be breaking the bounded accuracy design of 5e and the DM will just have to scale up encounters accordingly. However, the players won't typically have the hit points to go with the abilities and will turn into a bunch of glass cannons. In addition, folks within the same party will have to choose stat A just to keep up with the others in the party. Though A will also allow for some of the MAD builds like monk/warlock to be effective since they will probably manage at least 16 in three starting stats with decent backup.

Basically, having played 5e for about 3 years now, mostly just using the standard point buy, I am not sure I see the point of the system and it seems to me it will just turn out to be overpowered and unbalanced.

[GorogIrongut]

Okay. Some information about me. I've played a fair amount of 5e both as DM and player. Just like I played everything before it except for 4e. I've also played lots of different other systems. In my experience with Dnd, Magic has always trumped Martial players once you get past level 5. YMMV but even here on the forums, I've seen little to change my mind. Ergo why I think a magic tax is appropriate.

One of the first things I tell my players is that I trend toward realism. Which means I operate a Sandbox world. And that their not being able to operate on all 4 pillars of the world could have negative consequences (see realism). For me the four pillars of the world are Combat/Social/Skills/Power (blanket term I use to describe Monetary and Political Sway). The first time they roll up a character they come in with a min/maxed Sorcadin. After that character dies, they tend to make a much more balanced character. Because in my worlds, you can die just as easily from a failed skill test or running out of money as you would from an Ogre smashing your head open.

When I build a world, I make it real. Not a video game version for the characters to play whack a mole. And yes, my characters find a fair amount of gold. And yet, many have run out of it much to their regret.

[ad_hoc]

There's a lot going on here, and I'm not sure it adds anything other than complexity.

What are you trying to accomplish here? The character creation rules are intended to be pretty streamlined to allow people to roll up characters and start playing, rather than spending hours agonizing over choices.

Exactly this.

[Quoz]

Since you seem to be a GM who isnt afraid to try different systems and wants less of a video game and more of a sprawling Tolkein style adventure, I would suggest you take a look at Torchbearer. It is geared much more toward the low fantasy, exploration, and struggling to make sure you collect enough loot to survive through winter. Spellcasters are very limited - even a high leveled mage will only be able to cast a few spells per day. Social contests and actual fights are based on the same mechanics, so negotiations can be nearly as deadly as combat. And my personal favorite bit, the advancement mechanics only allow you to increase your skills if you both succeed and fail multiple times.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

So, I've been asked to DM by a group of people and I think I've got enough time to dedicate to it. That said, I've found the character creation rules for 5e to be... lacking. So I'm soliciting your advice on the following. Is it too restrictive? Does it provide more customizability without being overly fiddly? Thanks in advance.


1. There are 4 levels of Priority. A B C D. In these you allocate Attributes, Magic, Resources, and Skills. You may only have one thing in each level of priority.

Attributes
Attributes Points always allocated via the Point Buy System
A 36 Ability Points (17 is the highest starting score you can have not counting other modifiers.)
B 31 Ability Points (16 is the highest starting score you can have not counting other modifiers.)
C 27 Ability Points (15 is the highest starting score you can have not counting other modifiers.)
D 24 ability points (14 is the highest starting score you can have not counting other modifiers.)

Score Cost
8 0
9 1
10 2
11 3
12 4
13 5
14 7
15 9
16 11
17 13


Magic:
A You are a full caster and are able to multi class into whatever kind of casters you choose.
B You may choose a class that is a half caster. At a later date you may multi class into a full caster. No less than 5 levels later and only if appropriate to what is happening in game.
C You are not currently a caster. At some later date you may multi class into a half caster. No less than 5 levels later and only if appropriate to what is happening in game.
D You are as mundane as they come and you will always remain mundane. No magic for you, ever. Not even Magic Initiate.

Resources: This is dependent on the wealth standards of your particular world and will need to be tailored by the DM.
A The equivalent of a low level millionaire. Not a billionaire. You may start off with one extra purchased magical item approved by your GM above and beyond what the GM has already approved generally.
B You own nice things
C Barely making ends meet. You are unable to create a character from an exotic race.
D Hobo. All items you own are considered to be of poor quality and will fail... soon. DM may make exceptions for a particular item of equipment needed to further your story arc. You are unable to create a character from an exotic or monster race.

Skills
A You get 3 extra skills beyond those already allocated. One of these counts as having expertise. You may take a free feat at first level.
B You get 2 extra skills beyond those already allocated. One of these counts as having expertise.
C No change to any of your allocated skills.
D Your starting class and background skills are reduced by 2. You don't pick things up quickly and thus have difficulty multi classing. Consult with your DM how to appropriately convey this. This could be an absolute ban on multi classing if the DM is harsh.

So, you may choose to be a Wizard (magic in slot a), but then you have to decide what you're then willing to sacrifice. Will you have hobo levels of poverty to enable you to have some attributes and skills? Or maybe you could care less about magic and want to have all the shinies. So you put Resources in A and Magic in D. In many cases, whatever is allocated to Tier D comes with firm negative consequences so this isn't all about pluses. The player has to ponder the positives and negatives.


2. Attribute boosts:
-Strength adds a +1 to hp for every +2 to their strength modifier, rounded up.
-Intelligence grants further skills or languages for each +1 to their intelligence modifier.


3. There is a 7th attribute called Sanity. This is worked out as follows:
Sanity Score = Int+Wis+Cha/3. You may add half your proficiency score for to any Sanity check for each Save Proficiency that you have in Int/Wis/Cha.


4. Your player starts off the game with a free, published racial feat. Or a free feat from the below list. Should you want to take a feat not listed (i.e. UA, etc.), consult with the DM but have your roleplay reasoning ready to explain why you should get it.
Actor Charger
Dual Wielder Dungeon Delver
Durable Grappler
Healer Keen Mind
Lightly Armoured Linguist
Moderately Armoured Savage Attacker
Skilled Skulker
Tavern Brawler Weapon Master


That seems really complicated. What do your players want to do? Are they D&D newbs? In most of my groups you get that guy who loves tracking encumberance, another couple fellows are Drizzt fans and want to do something book heroic. A would be murder hobo guy and maybe a girl who wants to see what the D&D Critical Roll/Big Bang fuss is all about.

Three or four will attend every session. One or two get swapped out monthly.

See what your players think, I won't be the one coming over that often.

[Wildarm]

I don't know if there is much of a real choice in these options. Realistically it's all going to come down to if you are playing a Full/Half or Non-Caster. Stats will generally take priority and then skills and resources.

AT Rogue starting with Moderately Armored and 36 Point buy is pretty juicy.
Paladins will love 36 Point Buy as well. I'd probably take the Healer Feat and aim for Inspiring Leader at level 4
Battlemaster Fighter I actually might be tempted to grab A for the bonus feat. Start with PAM/Sentinel/Durable or GWM/PAM/Durable. Fix up your Strength at level 4.

[JNAProductions]

Feels overly complex for very little gain.

[Galithar]

Monk

Magic: D, don't need it

Wealth: C, Don't need it here either.

Attributes: B, Monk's are a little MAD

Skills: A, I want that Feat!!

Stats
Str 10
Dex 16 +1 Racial +1 Athlete (A skills feat)
Con 15 +1 Durable (Free Feat)
Int 8
Wis 14 +1 Racial +1 Resilient Wisdom (V. Human)
Cha 10

Starting AC is 17 unarmored, I only have 1 negative modifier in what is a rare save. A total of 7 skill proficiencies.

I made a quick build to test it out. I definitely feel more powerful than I would with a standard Monk build, but I also immediately jumped to a non magic, 0 equipment class so that I wasn't getting penalized during character creation.

I normally play casters, but I felt instantly punished trying to make a full caster. Though if I actually had a DM propose this system I'd ask how likely you would be to arbitrarily take away an Arcane Focus/component pouch/spellbook if I chose D wealth.

That's my biggest gripe. I feel like you are forcing characters to choose where you are going to punish them. Would a D in magic prevent me from using magic items? Or just casting? How long into the campaign will my equipment be falling apart? Do I have to worry about suddenly losing my sword at level 5?

Second build.

Not doing full point buy this time.

Wizard
Int 18 after racials and feats.

V. human
Wealth C
Skills D
Magic A
Attributes B

Keen Mind - Free Feat
Warcaster - V. Human

Base 4 skills -2 from D skills + 4 from Intelligence

So 18 in my main stat, 6 skills and decent stats.

I guess it's not too bad for a Wizard.

I feel like this is adding lots of extra fiddly steps. Attributes is always going to be high in everyone's list (for optimizers. Every 4 points of point buy is worth an ASI in your main attribute)

I'm also finding myself using your free feat to find a half feat to boost my attributes. Maybe that's just me optimizimg too much.

Some classes like a Cleric that wants Str for heavy armor, has to have A for magic, and can't afford for their equipment to arbitrarily be taken away by DM fist isn't going to have a good time with this. It's definitely going to shoehorn people into not playing casters unless they are fully SAD in my opinion. The threat of equipment breaking is also a terrible thing for most classes. Especially if you extend that to things required for casting.

[kazaryu]

So, I've been asked to DM by a group of people and I think I've got enough time to dedicate to it. That said, I've found the character creation rules for 5e to be... lacking. So I'm soliciting your advice on the following. Is it too restrictive? Does it provide more customizability without being overly fiddly? Thanks in advance.


1. There are 4 levels of Priority. A B C D. In these you allocate Attributes, Magic, Resources, and Skills. You may only have one thing in each level of priority.

Attributes
Attributes Points always allocated via the Point Buy System
A 36 Ability Points (17 is the highest starting score you can have not counting other modifiers.)
B 31 Ability Points (16 is the highest starting score you can have not counting other modifiers.)
C 27 Ability Points (15 is the highest starting score you can have not counting other modifiers.)
D 24 ability points (14 is the highest starting score you can have not counting other modifiers.)

Score Cost
8 0
9 1
10 2
11 3
12 4
13 5
14 7
15 9
16 11
17 13


Magic:
A You are a full caster and are able to multi class into whatever kind of casters you choose.
B You may choose a class that is a half caster. At a later date you may multi class into a full caster. No less than 5 levels later and only if appropriate to what is happening in game.
C You are not currently a caster. At some later date you may multi class into a half caster. No less than 5 levels later and only if appropriate to what is happening in game.
D You are as mundane as they come and you will always remain mundane. No magic for you, ever. Not even Magic Initiate.

Resources: This is dependent on the wealth standards of your particular world and will need to be tailored by the DM.
A The equivalent of a low level millionaire. Not a billionaire. You may start off with one extra purchased magical item approved by your GM above and beyond what the GM has already approved generally.
B You own nice things
C Barely making ends meet. You are unable to create a character from an exotic race.
D Hobo. All items you own are considered to be of poor quality and will fail... soon. DM may make exceptions for a particular item of equipment needed to further your story arc. You are unable to create a character from an exotic or monster race.

Skills
A You get 3 extra skills beyond those already allocated. One of these counts as having expertise. You may take a free feat at first level.
B You get 2 extra skills beyond those already allocated. One of these counts as having expertise.
C No change to any of your allocated skills.
D Your starting class and background skills are reduced by 2. You don't pick things up quickly and thus have difficulty multi classing. Consult with your DM how to appropriately convey this. This could be an absolute ban on multi classing if the DM is harsh.

So, you may choose to be a Wizard (magic in slot a), but then you have to decide what you're then willing to sacrifice. Will you have hobo levels of poverty to enable you to have some attributes and skills? Or maybe you could care less about magic and want to have all the shinies. So you put Resources in A and Magic in D. In many cases, whatever is allocated to Tier D comes with firm negative consequences so this isn't all about pluses. The player has to ponder the positives and negatives.


2. Attribute boosts:
-Strength adds a +1 to hp for every +2 to their strength modifier, rounded up.
-Intelligence grants further skills or languages for each +1 to their intelligence modifier.


3. There is a 7th attribute called Sanity. This is worked out as follows:
Sanity Score = Int+Wis+Cha/3. You may add half your proficiency score for to any Sanity check for each Save Proficiency that you have in Int/Wis/Cha.

4. Your player starts off the game with a free, published racial feat. Or a free feat from the below list. Should you want to take a feat not listed (i.e. UA, etc.), consult with the DM but have your roleplay reasoning ready to explain why you should get it.
Actor Charger
Dual Wielder Dungeon Delver
Durable Grappler
Healer Keen Mind
Lightly Armoured Linguist
Moderately Armoured Savage Attacker
Skilled Skulker
Tavern Brawler Weapon Master

ok so first some general impressions:
i don't really get what you're trying to accomplish with this. you say the current system is 'lacking' so i'd like to know what exactly you're trying to add.

ok, the priorities thing:
this heavily favors martial's. specifically the magic part. in order to play a caster, you have to give up other things. which means that you're assuming that casters are objectively stronger than martials. which is just plain wrong.

the second issue i have with it, is that it limits multiclassing to *exclusively* the strong versions. for optimal play most MC dips (using magical classes) don't occur until after lvl 5 anyway, because most classes get a a really nice power spike at level 5 (multiattack/3rd level spells). so if a character is trying to multiclass earlier, generally its going to result in a more varied, but overall weaker character. again, why do that?

you say that you're interested in realism: so why does your wealth level determine the race you can start as? tieflings can't be hobos?

skills: sure, its not like the rogue is already generally sub par, lets make it even weaker by letting literally anyone get some of cool **** they get. seriously, if you're giving anyone the ability to get expertise, why even play a rogue? their entire archetype has been divvied up among the classes.

to give an example of how badly this imbalances the game in favor of martials let me do a sample build for you:
human variant barbarian: 16 str, 14 con
priorities: abilities: c magic: D skills: B equipment: A

V.human feat: GWM, free feat: savage attacker. weapon of choice: greataxe

now, at level 1 you have a barbarian with 16hp (+12/level)
savage attacker means they basically have all the benenfits of the great weapon fighting style (reroll damage die) except its actually better.
on top of which they can start utilizing GWM immediately (because generally low level monsters have low AC anyway, and if you boost the AC to compensate you're going to **** over...well, any partial caster.
and oh wait..they also have a magic item: obviously GM approval required but...so what are you going to give them a useless magic item? it forces a choice: either A: you only let them take a useless magic item, which punishes them for putting this highest. or B: you give them a useful magic item, because thats the intent, however now you've created even more of a gap between this character and the rest of the party.
they have a +7 to grapple/shove attacks *which are at advantage* meaning they can control your battlefield.
alternate: they can also just swap their skills/equipment priorities: now they can also grab PAM/MOBILE on top of savage attacker.
and they did *all of that* without sacrificing anything, in fact they even picked up 2 extra skill proficiencies, so its not like they even sacrificed out of combat usefulness. compared to any partial caster who needs to give up things in order to benefit.


TL:DR all this system does is punish players for playing casters, and rewards them for playing pure martials.

[J-H]

If this is your first time DMing, just go with the usual 27 point buy.
My party hit level 10 and I have yet to kill any characters.

[CheddarChampion]

I like the idea. If I did something like this as a DM I'd tinker with the specifics a lot but as a player I'd ask:
1. Magic affects highest spell learnable, not classes you can take: A 9th, B 6th, C 3rd, D cantrips. You get spell slots as normal.
2. Resources - add how good you are with money and your living situation:
A: Big house, hired help comes by 2x a week, you make 3 gp per week in profit from a business you are in charge of.
B: Good house, thriftiness and a good work ethic nets you +1 gp per week.
C: Rented place, you make enough money to break even with living costs.
D: You stay at an inn when you can afford it, spending more than you should leads to a loss of 1 gp per week. This will put you in debt if you go into the red.

(Where 1 gp is how much money the average city dweller lives off of in a week. Change to suit the campaign.)

[GorogIrongut]

Sorry for not responding sooner but work got really busy. I apologize. Thanks everyone who offered constructive comments, your feedback is appreciated.

@Cheddar, I see what you did there with the magic and i like it. It does simplify things a bit, which is a plus.

I deliberately didn't provide a lot of information about the RESOURCE category because I figured each game and DM was different and would be able to tailor it to their player. If I were to show what I would do in my game, it would be pretty simple:

The twists of fate are such that when you divide the loot that your party receives at the end of any session...
A. You chose well. What you picked is worth twice what you actually thought it was worth. At the DM's discretion, you get drops from a higher level chart for magic items when rolling to see what the item is.
B. You chose pretty good. What you picked is worth 50% on top of what you thought it was worth.
C. Your luck is directed elsewhere. Which means that your loot doesn't change. 100 gp is 100 gp.
D. In a past life you pissed off a god. Or maybe one of your relatives was the recipient of a particularly nasty curse. Your loot is actually worth half what you expected when you split it up. When rolling on the Magic Item charts, choose the chart one level lower than what everyone else is using. All equipment you own at level 1 is considered shoddy and will break within 3 months.

@Galithar, nice characters.

@Quoz, thanks for the head's up.

To answer the broadly expressed thoughts:
1. I know it's more fiddly than the standard character creation rules. I'm soliciting your advice to see if it's TOO fiddly. Some of you think so.
2. Some of you have expressed disbelief at Magic Users being stronger than Martials. That's your belief and that's okay. All i know is that most discussions I've seen on these forums about who would win in a fight after level 12... have the magic users winning... easily.
3. Remember, this system isn't just about the negatives. In exchange for a negative, you get two other areas where you are stronger than you would normally be (A and B column)



I still like this idea, especially with the tweaks by Cheddar. But the part of me that wants to listen to those complaining it's too complex wants to change it thusly:

On character creation, you are allowed to choose one of the following:
A. Your character is able to grow as it levels and learn spells past level 5.
B. Choose a free, unlimited choice feat. Or you can gain experience in two skills you have proficiency in.
C. You receive 4 extra points using the point buy system.
D. You gain 10% more loot than you would normally gain. When rolling for magic items, roll on the next table higher.

[Galithar]

My biggest complaint is not based on a thought that full casters are not stronger then martials. Is more based in the fact that the feeling of these drawbacks is going to be felt the most at the EARLY levels. This is when full casters can actually feel weak. Now if you are starting these players at level 5+ then it wouldn't feel as punishing.

Also unless the group you are DMing for are experienced you likely won't see a flood of powerful casters. New players are frequently attracted to martial (read simple) characters. And even those that play casters often have suboptimal spell selection. I feel like you're trying to fix a problem that may not exist for the players that have asked you to DM for them.