Excluding help action (from familiar) as a source of advantage

[Crucius]

Hey all,

So for one of my players I have created a custom magic item of approximately very rare/legendary power level.


An ornate box with elaborate rose etchings, containing one bullet. When you hit with a ranged weapon attack using this piece of ammunition, the target takes 2d10 thunder damage and must make a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC or have vulnerability to all damage until the end of the next round. The target has disadvantage on the saving throw if the attack was made with advantage. Once it hits a target, the ammunition is no longer magical.

The box replenishes the bullet daily at dawn. Any unfired bullets lose their magical properties.


The idea is to promote team-play by having another partymember set up the advantage so that the save gets disadvantage. HOWEVER, half of those optimizing-bastards has a familiar, and I think 10 gp is too low a price for enabling this boss-killer item.

So I'm starting to think my design is just bad and that it can't be helped. However, before giving up on this, I was wondering if you peeps have any idea how to either... immersively... exclude the help action, or how to redesign this item so it does what I want: a team-play enabled boss debuff.

[CheddarChampion]

How about a chance of friendly fire if anyone is within 5 feet of the target? (And rule that if you help but move away from a target then the help action is wasted.)
This won't help with any Mastermind rogues but it will with familiars.

My suggestion would be if the attack misses there's a 50% chance of hitting an ally within 5 feet of the target. First roll the 50% chance then roll to see which ally within 5 feet is struck.

What's this 10 gp about?

[Crucius]

What's this 10 gp about?

The cost associated with casting Find Familiar, which at high levels is peanuts. Assuming they treat their familiar as a disposable resource by sending it up in the face of the bossmonster. It also doesn't cost you anything from your action economy this way, so yeah. Too cheap.

[CheddarChampion]

Alternative solutions:
Bosses have damage fields akin to spirit guardians.
Moving adjacent to a boss requires a Wis save to resist being frightened.
Have a few extra minions whose purpose in life is to shoot at familiars.
Houserule that powerful beings totally ignore the efforts of puny creatures (like familiars) and thus a familiar using the help action on them specifically doesn't give any advantage.

Or make the bullet a Dex save not an attack roll.

[Man_Over_Game]

Or make the bullet a Dex save not an attack roll.

This seems like the best solution.

I'd have it be two things:

A shot at the target, as a Dex save. Failure deals 1d10 Lightning damage.

The explosion from the hit location, as a Con save. Failure deals 1d10 Thunder damage.

If a creature takes damage, they suffer the Vulnerability effect.

The Dex save is a bit easier to enhance from the players, through use of conditions like Prone or Restrained.

[CheddarChampion]

The Dex save is a bit easier to enhance from the players, through use of conditions like Prone or Restrained.

Easier?
Prone doesn't affect Dex saves.
Paralyzed, restrained, and stunned do though. These are generally less accessible than the help action and usually allow for a save to avoid their effects.

[Man_Over_Game]

Easier?
Prone doesn't affect Dex saves.
Paralyzed, restrained, and stunned do though. These are generally less accessible than the help action and usually allow for a save to avoid their effects.

My bad. For some reason, I thought Prone provided Disadvantage on Dex saves.

[Crucius]

Alternative solutions:
Bosses have damage fields akin to spirit guardians.
Moving adjacent to a boss requires a Wis save to resist being frightened.
Have a few extra minions whose purpose in life is to shoot at familiars.
Houserule that powerful beings totally ignore the efforts of puny creatures (like familiars) and thus a familiar using the help action on them specifically doesn't give any advantage.

Or make the bullet a Dex save not an attack roll.

I think it's easier (and more efficient) to tackle the root cause in the item, and not force all my future monsters to have aura's etc, though I appreciate the thought!

[Crucius]

This seems like the best solution.

I'd have it be two things:

A shot at the target, as a Dex save. Failure deals 1d10 Lightning damage.

The explosion from the hit location, as a Con save. Failure deals 1d10 Thunder damage.

If a creature takes damage, they suffer the Vulnerability effect.

The Dex save is a bit easier to enhance from the players, through use of conditions like Prone or Restrained.

Though it is the easiest save to complicate, I fear it still might be too restrictive. I'm not against changing the attack roll to a Dex save, but I don't see many opportunities in my player's kits to restrain, stun or paralyze.

[JNAProductions]

If your players are already using Help from Familiars, and you're allowing it, then have a talk with them about changing it. Don't just do it unilaterally.

If they haven't been doing it, still talk with them, but it's not nearly as big a deal, since they haven't been using it and then suddenly have to stop.

[Man_Over_Game]

Lol, I just realized that we're overthinking this:

Just because Prone doesn't cause Disadvantage on Saving Throws doesn't mean it can't. Just add a clause to the bullet.

[NaughtyTiger]

You could enforce the familiars go on their own init...
Advantage would only apply to the attack roll immediately following the help action