High level Hexblade optimization

[Skylivedk]

Dear Playground,

I'm finally getting to play high level games and I enjoy it a lot more than expected. It probably helps that players have agreed not to recruit Planar Ally armies or do Simulacrum shenanigans.

The character and his constant memory loss (pact with Shar; penalty for not condemning change makers to forgetfulness is to start forgetting - my own choice) have been fun to play. I've refluffed a lot of abilities and spells to be memory/night/Shar-related, ie. Hypnotic Pattern shows a black disk with a purple border and everybody affected keeps forgetting what they are about to do; level 10 Dodge mechanic: the enemy seems to forget his current position, etc etc.

With that said, I've been playing a pure class GWM Hexblade so far. We're soon level 15, so I've started to think a bit ahead. I don't see something super tasty after level 17 by remaining warlock. Gains for staying Warlock:
1 more invocation
1 ASI (probably the best part of staying)
1 mediocre capstone (IMO)

Hence I'd like your input on what could be fun/good for the last levels.

Currently:
10 Strength
14 Dexterity
16 Constitution
10 Wisdom
8 Intelligence
18 Charisma (20 with my Ioun Stone)

Feats: GWM, Elven Accuracy and PAM.

I've been allowed to switch PAM before the next session and I think I'll switch to Res:Con both to shore up an important saving throw weakness, but also to keep concentration better. Also, I seem to have good uses of my bonus action quite often (from crits, kills, Hexblade's Curse or maybe even, almost never used, Hex - digression: Hex is on my list more for the utility). Thoughts on a switch are welcome.

For the last 3 levels
I think the most obvious choice is Battle Master with Precision Attack, Manoeuvring Strike and Riposte. Each level in fighter would give something.

Alternatives are:
Bard
Getting Shield back (I would get it from Hexblade, but use bard slots) and Expertise could be nifty. The level 2 spells are not amazing.

Sorcerer
Definitely better spells at level 2. Both Shield, Absorb Elements, Darkness, Misty Step and Mirror Image are good, and so are some of the bloodline bonuses. It just hurts to have a maximum of 3 sorcery points!

Rogue
Sneak attack is not really applicable with GWM, but expertise and bonus action options are good and so are some of subclass bonuses (initiative from Swashbuckler, movement from Scout and spells+Mage hand from arcane trickster).

I don't think I have the stats for any other class, but let me know if I've missed something.

[Yakk]

Fighter(Samurai) 3? Lets you turn your advantage on at-will and gives you action surge.

Round 1: Hexblade curse, attack. 0.1 crits/swing, 0.2 crits per routine.
Round 2: Fighting spirit, attack x4 with tripvantage; 27% crit per swing, 1.08 crits on average per routine. Smite on crits for +12d8.
Round 3: Repeat without action surge.

Naturally try to get a flame tongue greatsword.

Against AC 18 you have +11 to hit, reduced to +6 by GWM.

.55^3 = 17% miss chance or 83% hit chance for 4d6+21 = 35 per swing

.27 crit chance for +4d6+12d8 = +68 damage.

47.41 damage per swing, or 190 per action surge and 95 per normal round.

Without trip-vantage do normal attacks for 70% hit 10% crit, 25 per hit 68 per crit, 24.3 * 2 = 48.6 damage.

3 round total damage against AC 18 is 333.6.

Landing a Hex (maybe before combat, or if you got advantage through another method) ups this by 28.7 over the 3 rounds.

You are a bit resistant to higher AC, because (a) you have trip-vantage, (b) ~1/3 of your damage is from crits which ignore AC (c) you can turn GWM off if your hit chance gets low enough.

At infinite AC, you land 1.82 crits, dealing (35 + 68) damage per crit, and deal 187.46 damage over 3 rounds.

At 27 AC (+2 plate/+3 shield) you drop GWM. You hit on a 15+. With tripvantage that is a 66% hit rate. So you get .58*6+.3*2=4.54 and 1.82 crits, for 237.26 damage over 3 rounds.

At 23 AC (+3 plate) you hit on a 16+ with GWM and 11+ without. 1.0 25 point hits, 1.82 crits, .58*6 35 point hits, for 270.56 damage over 3 rounds.

At 14 AC you hit on a 7+ with GWM, for 1.4 + 5.838 = 7.24 hits and 1.82 crits, for 377.16 total damage over 3 rounds.

[FinnS]

If you are not going to push to get your fourth slot as a warlock at level 17 then I highly suggest you go with another Caster class of course being either Bard or
sorcerer.
Sounds to me like you are a very melee oriented Warlock so my suggestion would either be the sword or whisper bard.
Sword is the more obvious and safer route gaining movement, more AC and some extra damage.
Or
Whisper for more pure damage for those 27.1% chance to Crit hexblade curse Elven accuracy enhanced advantage rolls.
At level 5 you basically have five 3d6 psychic damage mini Smites on a short rest.

Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with the sorcerer route either for the metamagic fun but I think the Bard options just add better flavour and our overall just more fun.
Let's not forget that with the bard you're also picking up another skill, expertise in 2 skills and jack of all trades which is a very underestimated ability granting you half your proficiency bonus on initiative, counterspell and dispel magic checks just to name a few.

Either way you want to have some more spell slots that don't use up your warlock slots so you can spend one slot on a rather beefy armor of agathys leaving you with two slots to use with Eldritch smite (I'm only assuming you took it).
Considering you were going to go PAM I'm assuming you're using a +1 halberd/glaive so on a crit with smite and whisper bard at 5th on a Target with your curse running on it, GWF, you're looking at 2d10+12d8+6d6+27 or 123 average damage ;)

[Evaar]

You could go Sorcerer 3 and pick up Quicken Spell, cast your favorite spell as a bonus action and still get to Attack in the same turn. You can go with Shadow Origin and get super darkvision, and a cheat death. Plus you get some extra slots for Shield. Or you could go Wild Magic and give yourself on-demand Advantage to combo with your Elven Accuracy, recharging when you cast Shield (if your DM lets you Wild Surge on those).

The benefit of going Sorcerer is that you get those extra things right at level 1, as opposed to Bard or Fighter where you won't get your subclass abilities until level 3 (character level 20). I think Shadow and Wild offer the most useful stuff for you; you're not going to use Draconic's armor or elemental damage probably, Storm gives you a little extra mobility once in a while, and Divine Soul gives you a nice bonus to a roll but only once per rest and you probably won't use the cleric spells.

Fighter does get you immediate access to a Fighting Style, and I'd go with Defense since you probably apply disadvantage to most attacks against you via Shadow of Moil. Second Wind is nice, Action Surge is amazing. And if you're really seriously getting to 20, then yeah probably Samurai or Battlemaster. Between them I'd probably go Samurai - you have Hexblade's Curse for expanded crit range, Elven Accuracy for triple advantage, and Samurai gives you the ability to just declare all your attacks have advantage, plus Action Surge. Just keep in mind how much you'll actually get to play with that, assuming you're taking the Multiclass levels last.

[FinnS]

He's level 14 about to hit 15 he said so he's got six levels to play with not three.
As a side note, Devil's Sight is already the best vision in the game short of casting True Seeing or being something like a Drow Gloom Stalker Ranger wearing Goggle's of Night (Darkvision 210') with the Skulker Feat ;)

[Skylivedk]

Fighter(Samurai) 3? Lets you turn your advantage on at-will and gives you action surge.

SNIP (A lot of good math).
Well, I would say that foresight seems like a good choice on a melee Hexblade and I'd get that before my fighter levels, rendering a lot of the Samurai benefits slightly less useful. The party is pretty dark vision friendly at the moment (a Hexblade rogue with devil's sight and a giant Scorpion morphing barbarian/mom druid), plus I Shadows of Moil.

With that in mind, do you feel Samurai still offers more than Battle Master?


If you are not going to push to get your fourth slot as a warlock at level 17 then I highly suggest you go with another Caster class of course being either Bard or
sorcerer.
Sounds to me like you are a very melee oriented Warlock so my suggestion would either be the sword or whisper bard.
Sword is the more obvious and safer route gaining movement, more AC and some extra damage.
Or
Whisper for more pure damage for those 27.1% chance to Crit hexblade curse Elven accuracy enhanced advantage rolls.
At level 5 you basically have five 3d6 psychic damage mini Smites on a short rest.

Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with the sorcerer route either for the metamagic fun but I think the Bard options just add better flavour and our overall just more fun.
Let's not forget that with the bard you're also picking up another skill, expertise in 2 skills and jack of all trades which is a very underestimated ability granting you half your proficiency bonus on initiative, counterspell and dispel magic checks just to name a few.

Either way you want to have some more spell slots that don't use up your warlock slots so you can spend one slot on a rather beefy armor of agathys leaving you with two slots to use with Eldritch smite (I'm only assuming you took it).
Considering you were going to go PAM I'm assuming you're using a +1 halberd/glaive so on a crit with smite and whisper bard at 5th on a Target with your curse running on it, GWF, you're looking at 2d10+12d8+6d6+27 or 123 average damage ;)
My current plan was to swap PAM for Res:Con due to a perception of action economy clutter and then go Warlock 17 before multiclassing out. 4 lvl 5 spells slots, 1 lvl 8 slot, 1 ASI and 1 lvl 9 slot all seem super yummy. I'm not convinced that the Whisper bard mini smite beats Foresight and a lvl 5 SR slot... Even though I do find the nuke lovely.

When changing to 2h, I can pick up a +1 greatsword with +1d6 cold damage as well.


You could go Sorcerer 3 and pick up Quicken Spell, cast your favorite spell as a bonus action and still get to Attack in the same turn. You can go with Shadow Origin and get super darkvision, and a cheat death. Plus you get some extra slots for Shield. Or you could go Wild Magic and give yourself on-demand Advantage to combo with your Elven Accuracy, recharging when you cast Shield (if your DM lets you Wild Surge on those).

The benefit of going Sorcerer is that you get those extra things right at level 1, as opposed to Bard or Fighter where you won't get your subclass abilities until level 3 (character level 20). I think Shadow and Wild offer the most useful stuff for you; you're not going to use Draconic's armor or elemental damage probably, Storm gives you a little extra mobility once in a while, and Divine Soul gives you a nice bonus to a roll but only once per rest and you probably won't use the cleric spells.

Fighter does get you immediate access to a Fighting Style, and I'd go with Defense since you probably apply disadvantage to most attacks against you via Shadow of Moil. Second Wind is nice, Action Surge is amazing. And if you're really seriously getting to 20, then yeah probably Samurai or Battlemaster. Between them I'd probably go Samurai - you have Hexblade's Curse for expanded crit range, Elven Accuracy for triple advantage, and Samurai gives you the ability to just declare all your attacks have advantage, plus Action Surge. Just keep in mind how much you'll actually get to play with that, assuming you're taking the Multiclass levels last.

Good point about getting the sorcerer bonuses off the bat. It definitely makes lvl 18 better as a sorcerer dip than the fighter dip. 19 is clearly in fighter's favour though.

Am I the only thinking that the Samurai is less valuable because of Foresight, Darkness+Devil's Sight and Shadows of Moil?

As a half-drow I even have Faerie Fire. Truly curious to hear your reasonings.

[Yakk]

Fighter 1, if you read great weapon fighting style in a reasonable way, you can use the rerolls on the smite dice. (I'm aware that there are alternative readings by JC)

A crit-smite on a flametongue greatsword is 12d8+4d6. Each 1d6 is (+2.5+1.5)/6 for +2/3, so it gives +8/3 on 4d6. Each 1d8 earns (3.5+2.5)/8=+0.75, so it gives +9 on 12d8. Total +11.67 average damage per crit-smite, and +2.67 on a normal hit. Plus second wind for ~6.5 HP/short rest.

Level 2 gets you action surge.

Level 3 gets you advantage-whenever-you-want.

So each of the 3 levels gives you something nice, so long as your DM agrees that GWM fighting style lets you reroll any damage die from a weapon you make with two hands.

[Evaar]

Am I the only thinking that the Samurai is less valuable because of Foresight, Darkness+Devil's Sight and Shadows of Moil?

As a half-drow I even have Faerie Fire. Truly curious to hear your reasonings.

Very valid point, it just gives you another way to get it if you're out of spells. But honestly I forgot you'll have advantage on demand most of the time anyway.


He's level 14 about to hit 15 he said so he's got six levels to play with not three.

His post says he's not seeing much for warlock after 17, so I assume he's staying warlock until then.

[Skylivedk]

Fighter 1, if you read great weapon fighting style in a reasonable way, you can use the rerolls on the smite dice. (I'm aware that there are alternative readings by JC)

A crit-smite on a flametongue greatsword is 12d8+4d6. Each 1d6 is (+2.5+1.5)/6 for +2/3, so it gives +8/3 on 4d6. Each 1d8 earns (3.5+2.5)/8=+0.75, so it gives +9 on 12d8. Total +11.67 average damage per crit-smite, and +2.67 on a normal hit. Plus second wind for ~6.5 HP/short rest.

Level 2 gets you action surge.

Level 3 gets you advantage-whenever-you-want.

So each of the 3 levels gives you something nice, so long as your DM agrees that GWM fighting style lets you reroll any damage die from a weapon you make with two hands.

I'm not taking GWF if he goes with the ruling of letting me reroll only the 2d6. If I can reroll Smites, I'll go to town.

Is Fighting Spirit not only three times per day/LR? Considering Foresight and the 4 Battle Master die coming back per short rest (and potential damage doubling on crits). I'm less and less convinced of the Samurai. The Fighting Spirit bonus action also competes with Hexblade's Curse, Hex, GWM crit/kill hits and moving either of Hex or Hexblade's Curse. On the other hand, Riposte and Precision strike are potentially full extra attacks and Manoeuvring Strike is extra damage plus battlefield control.

[Keravath]

I have a level 11 hexblade at the moment - level 10 hexblade/1 shadow sorcerer. I took the sorcerer level for utility spell slots since casting shield with a level 5 slot is a waste. I plan to take at least 3 levels of sorcerer to get quicken. Quicken shadow of moil or similar in the first round of combat and then attack rather than losing a combat round casting it.

My character is variant human with resilient con, pam and gwm and has been fun so far. (Another reason I took the sorcerer level is that I have a ring of spell storing but I could only put one shield spell in it with only level 5 slots available. Adding the sorcerer level gave me first level slots to use to fill the ring with shield/absorb elements spells).

I am debating the usefulness of going past 12 in hexblade. I could add 3 levels of sorcerer and 5 of bard or some other combination for more spell slots and a lot of utility. I end up missing out on one 5th level short rest slot, a couple of invocations and level 7,8,9 mystic arcanum but those are 1 use/LR spells and not spell slots so somewhat less overall utility than would be available to the other caster classes. However, foresight 1/LR especially in combination with elven accuracy is very tempting in your case.

If you are going to 17 then I'd probably go either battlemaster fighter (since precision can be very useful for a GWM character + action surge + other maneuvers) or 3 levels of sorcerer for the extremely useful spell slots, spells, cantrips and meta magic that lets you get that one really important spell off in the first round and still attack.

[Yakk]

Foresight does change the calculus.

Now you can hexblade, trip-vantage, hex, trip-vantage action surge. Drop smites and BM dice on crits.

From UA, psychic warrior, brute and rune knight all offer something interesting. Rune knight is a stacking 1d6 from becoming large, brute and psychic a 1d4 flat damage bonus on weapon attacks.

Each attack against AC 18 is 83% hit chance and 27% crit chance. An attack routine of 3 rounds with an action surge gives 8 attacks, so 2.16 crits and 6.64 hits.

1d4*8.8 = 22 damage from 1d4 flat.

BM on crit is 2.16*4.5*2 = 19.44 damage. You can bring this up a *bit* by burning dice off-crit. But the real joy is Riposte.

+1d6 before an attack action gives +7.7 damage per attack routine.

There is a 0.5329 chance an attack action triggers a crit. So after hexblade, it might be worth delaying your bonus actions (like hex) that add 1d6 until *after* you make an attack routine, as an extra attack is worth more than extra damage dice on each tap by a fair amount.

Each swing (on AC 18) is worth 47.41 damage. Your hex has to be up for 6+ attack actions to be worth the cost of 1 swing.

I'm uncertain if Hexblade *before* your initial attack is worth it, or if you should save the bonus action for a crit. With 3x advantage and a 20 crit target there is a 26% chance to land a crit in an opening salvo. It does cost you ~11 damage from Hexblade, plus a bunch from crits, so maybe not.

That does bring about the question; is Champion worthwhile even with Hexblade curse? Champion frees up your minor action to reserve for GWM swings for longer.

Hexblade Curse without 19-20 crit range is only worth ~5.5 damage per attack, or 11 per attack action. A free swing is 42 damage.

Champion 3/Hexblade 17 would be worth running the numbers on.

Each turn you attack. If you crit you bonus action swing and smite.

When you don't crit, you (in order):
1. Action surge (and try again for a crit).
2. Hexblade curse
3. Hex
which boosts later turn damage.

[Skylivedk]

I have a level 11 hexblade at the moment - level 10 hexblade/1 shadow sorcerer. I took the sorcerer level for utility spell slots since casting shield with a level 5 slot is a waste. I plan to take at least 3 levels of sorcerer to get quicken. Quicken shadow of moil or similar in the first round of combat and then attack rather than losing a combat round casting it.

My character is variant human with resilient con, pam and gwm and has been fun so far. (Another reason I took the sorcerer level is that I have a ring of spell storing but I could only put one shield spell in it with only level 5 slots available. Adding the sorcerer level gave me first level slots to use to fill the ring with shield/absorb elements spells).

I am debating the usefulness of going past 12 in hexblade. I could add 3 levels of sorcerer and 5 of bard or some other combination for more spell slots and a lot of utility. I end up missing out on one 5th level short rest slot, a couple of invocations and level 7,8,9 mystic arcanum but those are 1 use/LR spells and not spell slots so somewhat less overall utility than would be available to the other caster classes. However, foresight 1/LR especially in combination with elven accuracy is very tempting in your case.

If you are going to 17 then I'd probably go either battlemaster fighter (since precision can be very useful for a GWM character + action surge + other maneuvers) or 3 levels of sorcerer for the extremely useful spell slots, spells, cantrips and meta magic that lets you get that one really important spell off in the first round and still attack.

I've previously played around with a 6 Pala/5 Hexblade/9 Bard build.

For Hexblade, cutting off at 12 also seems viable. I like forcecage, soul cage and Foresight a lot, but I think there's good things to gain from either 2 Pala and 6 sorc/bard or just more sorc/bard (depending on stats).

Since I'm already level 14 Hexblade, I don't see the big win in multiclassing away though. All of my next 3 levels are very powerful and I don't see them matched all that easily even by more low level utility. An extra SR slot is especially huge. Demiplane/Glibness/Feeblemind are all great as well, and Foresight is incredible.

What is the strongest competition? 6 levels sorc? Bard?


Foresight does change the calculus.

Now you can hexblade, trip-vantage, hex, trip-vantage action surge. Drop smites and BM dice on crits.

From UA, psychic warrior, brute and rune knight all offer something interesting. Rune knight is a stacking 1d6 from becoming large, brute and psychic a 1d4 flat damage bonus on weapon attacks.

Each attack against AC 18 is 83% hit chance and 27% crit chance. An attack routine of 3 rounds with an action surge gives 8 attacks, so 2.16 crits and 6.64 hits.

1d4*8.8 = 22 damage from 1d4 flat.

BM on crit is 2.16*4.5*2 = 19.44 damage. You can bring this up a *bit* by burning dice off-crit. But the real joy is Riposte.

+1d6 before an attack action gives +7.7 damage per attack routine.

There is a 0.5329 chance an attack action triggers a crit. So after hexblade, it might be worth delaying your bonus actions (like hex) that add 1d6 until *after* you make an attack routine, as an extra attack is worth more than extra damage dice on each tap by a fair amount.

Each swing (on AC 18) is worth 47.41 damage. Your hex has to be up for 6+ attack actions to be worth the cost of 1 swing.

I'm uncertain if Hexblade *before* your initial attack is worth it, or if you should save the bonus action for a crit. With 3x advantage and a 20 crit target there is a 26% chance to land a crit in an opening salvo. It does cost you ~11 damage from Hexblade, plus a bunch from crits, so maybe not.

That does bring about the question; is Champion worthwhile even with Hexblade curse? Champion frees up your minor action to reserve for GWM swings for longer.

Hexblade Curse without 19-20 crit range is only worth ~5.5 damage per attack, or 11 per attack action. A free swing is 42 damage.

Champion 3/Hexblade 17 would be worth running the numbers on.

Each turn you attack. If you crit you bonus action swing and smite.

When you don't crit, you (in order):
1. Action surge (and try again for a crit).
2. Hexblade curse
3. Hex
which boosts later turn damage.

Unfortunately no UA for me. Psychic would have been great and I would have loved how the flavour mixes with the character.

I haven't run the math, but considering the overlap of crit range and the value of the curse (also 7 damage clean), I have a hard time imagining Champion being worth it. Remember, you have other benefits from the curse: it can heal you and generate a pretty good scout as well. It also opens for your wonderful 50% miss chance reaction. Without using your concentration slot.