Doubling up armor 3.5e

[CNFish]

I have a group of players who are wanting to wear a chain shirt underneath other types of armor. this is new for me, as ive never had players want to do this, is there any precedent?

Their argument is because its a chain "Shirt" its light enough to be worn under something such as scale mail and receive the benefits.

[OrbanSirgen]

I have a group of players who are wanting to wear a chain shirt underneath other types of armor. this is new for me, as ive never had players want to do this, is there any precedent?

Their argument is because its a chain "Shirt" its light enough to be worn under something such as scale mail and receive the benefits.

I suppose they could wear another layer of armor, but they would only get the better AC bonus and have to use the lower max Dex bonus... Armor check penalty would probably apply for both, as would arcane spell failure...
For the example in question, wearing a chain shirt under scale mail, they would get an armor bonus of +4 (same bonus for either), a max Dex bonus of +3 (from scale mail), armor check penalty of -6 (sum of penalties), and arcane spell failure of 45% (sum of both)... Whether they would still count as wearing medium armor or if it gets bumped up to heavy is up to the DM... Also, despite the name, a chain shirt still weighs 25 pounds while scale mail is 30 pounds...

[One Step Two]

To add a little more clarity: There are 11 total body slots (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemsOnTheBody) the players can use to wear items:
Head, Eye, Neck, Torso, Body, Waist, Shoulders, Arms or wrists, Hands, 2 Rings, Feet.

The Torso and Body are very close in description, but Armor can only occupy the Body slot. Just because Chain Shirt is called a shirt, it is not a thin peice of fabric that a full set of armor can be worn over the top of in 3.5.

But more importantly, as OrbanSirgen pointed out, the Armor bonus will not stack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#armorBonus) Which just adds to encumbrance and cost for no benefit

[FaerieGodfather]

The reason you can't wear Light Armor under Medium/Heavy Armor is that Medium/Heavy Armors all already have lighter armor underneath.

Mail armor has a padded gambeson underneath it, while breastplate, half plate, and full plate are all metal plates on top of maille.

[wilphe]

Their argument is because its a chain "Shirt" its light enough to be worn under something such as scale mail and receive the benefits.

Technically most of the heavier armours are going to something approximating to light armour incorporated into the structure - because wearing chain or full plate right next to your skin is going to leave you sore and pinched so they will at the very least have padding.

Edit: Swordsaged

[Jay R]

Player: My character is wearing +3 chainmail under his +2 plate armor.
Me: Instead of the padding that's supposed to be there? After 30 seconds he decides that it's too uncomfortable and restrictive.
Player: No, no. He put the padding on first.
Me: It doesn't fit.
Player: He'll have some made special to fit that way.
Me: The blacksmith tells you that it can't work that way.
Player: My character researches a way to make it work.
Me: No, give it up. Armor bonuses don't stack. The legal types of armor are listed in the book, and plate + chain isn't in the rules.

[Biggus]

The only game-legal way I know of to get any benefit from wearing two lots of armour is the epic feat Additional Magic Item Space. You still don't get the armour bonus or enhancement bonus from both, but you can have two sets of special abilities functioning at once.

Personally I'd still rule that the second suit of armour has to be something extra light, such as a mithral chain shirt, for the reasons mentioned above.

[FaerieGodfather]

Personally I'd still rule that the second suit of armour has to be something extra light, such as a mithral chain shirt, for the reasons mentioned above.

Hawaiian Shirt, maybe. Shopkeeps jack up their prices, even when you wear it under regular armor, but the AC bonus stacks.

[Coventry]

I have a group of players who are wanting to wear a chain shirt underneath other types of armor. this is new for me, as ive never had players want to do this, is there any precedent?

Their argument is because its a chain "Shirt" its light enough to be worn under something such as scale mail and receive the benefits.

Assuming that the player's real goal is to improve the character's armor class, I would treat it like Pathfinder's "double-plated" (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/armor/armor-modifications/double-plated/) armor modification. Costs +1000 gp over the base armor, adds 1 to the AC bonus, substracts 2 from the maximum dexterity bonus, adds 20 pounds of weight, and increases the armor category to the next heavier level (light -> medium -> heavy -> so heavy it requires a feat).

If the player is willing to invest the resources in order to be able to wear a Sherman tank ... well, okay.

[OrbanSirgen]

Hawaiian Shirt, maybe. Shopkeeps jack up their prices, even when you wear it under regular armor, but the AC bonus stacks.

Except armor bonuses do not stack... For example, you can't benefit from regular armor and Bracers of Armor at the same time...

[HouseRules]

The definition of Half Plate is that it includes a Mail to cover areas that plates do not cover.
Even Full Plates have Mail at joints that plates cannot cover.

[Biggus]

Assuming that the player's real goal is to improve the character's armor class, I would treat it like Pathfinder's "double-plated" (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/armor/armor-modifications/double-plated/) armor modification. Costs +1000 gp over the base armor, adds 1 to the AC bonus, substracts 2 from the maximum dexterity bonus, adds 20 pounds of weight, and increases the armor category to the next heavier level (light -> medium -> heavy -> so heavy it requires a feat).

If the player is willing to invest the resources in order to be able to wear a Sherman tank ... well, okay.

In Races of Stone (p.155-158) there are rules for super-heavy armours if they want to go that route. Most of them require a feat to use without penalty though.

[animewatcha]

The armors that are used would need to tackle different type of AC involved.

Scale mail can be worn with bracers of armor, but AC bonus gets wacky. Scale mail overrides for general AC ( assuming bracers aren't higher AC due to high pricing ), but bracers of armor would add their AC bonus to touch AC/ regular AC for incorporeal touch attacks ( Force effect ).

What you would need to do is go with one of two routes. Both require a bit of investment.

One route - normal armor + Gnomish twistcloth ( with proficiency feat ). Twistcloth would add it's ac bonus to touch ac. Your choice as to which to enchant as it will determine future AC benefit.
Other one would be padded, leather, or chain shirt ( or if you can get lenient DM for other armors due to descriptions etc. ) and go with dastana and char-anna ( I likely mispelled these ) from OA. the base AC bonus will stack to padded, leather or chain shirt. However, enhancement bonus to AC ( likely magical ) doesnt stack and therefore would only apply once for the straight AC bonus. You could however get a chain shirt fire resist ( magical ) , cold resist ( magical ) dastana, and lightning resist ( magical ) char-anna. Benefit from base non-magical AC from all. Have only highest enhancement bonus to AC count. However, you can benefit from fire resist, cold resist, and lightning resist all at the same time.

Another option for all the above is Dragon Mag option of reinforcement. Add +1 to base non-magical AC of armor piece. Can use for shield, armor, dastana, and char-anna.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

char-annaChahar-aina, but yes. Also, they're dastana bracers.

Also, wearing light armor (such as leather or a mithril shirt) under a manifestation of inertial armor (the psionic version of (improved/greater) mage armor is often recommended, not because the AC bonuses stack (they don't) but because you want the inertial armor effect for the AC bonus (+4 to AC for 1 power point, +1 per +2 pp spent) and the light armor for the special abilities (and in case the inertial armor gets dispelled). Inertial armor is also a force effect, and thus defends against incorporeal and ethereal attacks.

The above combo using gnomish twist cloth (instead of light armor) helps your touch AC, which inertial armor doesn't touch. So there's that. Combine with a magic vestment spell on the twist cloth for a bigger boost.

Aside from the above, wearing multiple armors doesn't really work.

[OrbanSirgen]

Basically, if the bonus to AC is specifically called an armor bonus (which most armor provides), it will stack with any bonus to AC except other armor bonuses...

[Gruftzwerg]

Psychoactive Skin: Skin of the Hero (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinoftheHero) gives +3 deflection bonus to Armor Class, a +3 resistance bonus on all saving throws, and a +3 enhancement bonus on attack rolls. 77.5k


Alternatively, while not really armor, but why not just use an animated shield?
Shield bonus stack with armor and can be further enhanced up to +5. And you still have your hands free. Add armor spikes for additional weapon enhancement slots, like warning.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psychoactive Skin: Skin of the Hero (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinoftheHero) gives +3 deflection bonus to Armor Class, a +3 resistance bonus on all saving throws, and a +3 enhancement bonus on attack rolls. 77.5kMeh. The psychoactive skin of proteus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus) is vastly, VASTLY better, and it costs less than 7,000 gp more. Infinitely more versatile, size increases/decreases, natural armor increases, Strength increases, Dexterity increases, and even additional deflection bonuses, depending on the form. Plus it heals you any time you use it.

[Gruftzwerg]

Meh. The psychoactive skin of proteus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus) is vastly, VASTLY better, and it costs less than 7,000 gp more. Infinitely more versatile, size increases/decreases, natural armor increases, Strength increases, Dexterity increases, and even additional deflection bonuses, depending on the form. Plus it heals you any time you use it.

I know, but that has really nothing to do with "doubling up armor" at least imho^^. i mean the desired task to accomplish here is to double armor, not just get the most?^^ And the proteus armor imho doesn't count here. But your opinion may vary here^^

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I know, but that has really nothing to do with "doubling up armor" at least imho^^. i mean the desired task to accomplish here is to double armor, not just get the most?^^ And the proteus armor imho doesn't count here. But your opinion may vary here^^Neither does the psychoactive skin of the hero. Sure, it gives you +3 deflection to AC, but the PSoP can give much, MUCH larger numbers. Turning into a will-o-wisp alone grants +9 deflection, +9 Dex, and +1 size.

[Gruftzwerg]

Neither does the psychoactive skin of the hero. Sure, it gives you +3 deflection to AC, but the PSoP can give much, MUCH larger numbers. Turning into a will-o-wisp alone grants +9 deflection, +9 Dex, and +1 size.

I was talking about the role play common sense perpective. The Skin of the Hero is still a second layer of visually armor like layer, giving you its bonus in this state.
The Skin of the Proteus on the other hand gives it bonus while you use its Metamorphosis ability and only appear to wear a single layer of (your normal) armor (if the new form is capable of wearing it) if any at all.


While in a form other than his natural form, the wearer does not appear to be wearing the skin.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I was talking about the role play common sense perpective. The Skin of the Hero is still a second layer of visually armor like layer, giving you its bonus in this state.
The Skin of the Proteus on the other hand gives it bonus while you use its Metamorphosis ability and only appear to wear a single layer of (your normal) armor (if the new form is capable of wearing it) if any at all.Does that mean that, since inertial armor can either be invisible or a colored glow (and not a suit of armor) that the +13 (or more, with ML boosters) armor bonus should be disregarded when optimizing your AC?

[Gruftzwerg]

Does that mean that, since inertial armor can either be invisible or a colored glow (and not a suit of armor) that the +13 (or more, with ML boosters) armor bonus should be disregarded when optimizing your AC?

As said opinions may vary. When I read doubling up armor I think of 2 visible layers of armor and not just straight AC optimization.

[AnimeTheCat]

As others have touched on, the primary reason why you can't/don't is because heavier armors typically already do. For example, from page 124 to 126 of the PHB you have the Armor descriptions that look like this:



Banded Mail: This armor is made from overlapping strips of metal sewn on to a backing of leather and chainmail...

Breastplate: A breastplate covers your front and back. It comes with a helmet and greaves (plates to cover your lower legs). A light suit or skir of studded leather beneath the breastplate protects your limbs without restricting movement much.

Chainmail: This armor is made of interlocking metal rings. It includes a layer of quitled fabric worn underneath to prevent chafing and to cushion the impact of blows. Several layers of mail are hung over vital areas...

Full Plate: This armor consists of shaping an dfitted metal plates riveted and interlocked to cover the entire body. The suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor...

Half Plate: This armor is a combinatoin of chainmaili with metal plates...

Scale Mail: This armor consists of a coat and leggings (and perhaps a seperate skirt) of leather covered withoverlapping pieces of metal, much like the scales of a fish...

Splint Mail: This armor is made of narrow vertical strips of metal riveted to a backing of leather that is worn over cloth padding...


As you can see, all of those medium or heavy armors include layering in their defense already. You don't get added bonuses for weaing two chain shirts, so wearing a chain shirt under chainmail would give no benefit as that is essentially what you're trying to do, wear two chain shirts under your chainmail.

Hope this helps.

[Railak]

Is no one actually going to point out that although it's called a chain shirt, it really isn't as simple as a shirt? It's the main piece of chain mail armor, just without all the extra armor parts. Its still fairly large and cumbersome.

[the_tick_rules]

I have a group of players who are wanting to wear a chain shirt underneath other types of armor. this is new for me, as ive never had players want to do this, is there any precedent?

Their argument is because its a chain "Shirt" its light enough to be worn under something such as scale mail and receive the benefits.

You can't, well not in the way they want to it seems. Bonuses of the same type don't stack so you don't get to double dip bonuses, you can't get a +12 armor bonus by wearing full plate and chain shirt underneath. Pretty sure you can wear three or more magic rings but you can only pick up to two to be active so even in the best case scenario they would have to pick which suit they are drawing bonuses from since you are limited to one magical suit of armor. Plus armor rules say if you swap out normal gauntlets or boots for magical versions the armor retains it's qualities. I would argue to them if they wear a chain shirt and chainmail pants or whatever the chainmail suit has been dismantled to the point of being non-functional.

[animewatcha]

I pretty much asked about compatible armors that can be compatible with dastana and char-aina. Kinda effectively doubling up armor.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?602527-armors-that-are-otherwise-identical-to-a-chain-shirt

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?560320-3-5-highest-ac-armor-compatible-with-chahar-and-dastana

If you want to double up on armor in 3.5. You have to be tricky about it. Also, reinforce everything you can.