In character mistakes and how to fix them

[ProsecutorGodot]

In my home games most recent session I made a pretty big blunder. The premise: We're running a modified version of Dungeon of the Mad Mage after having played Dragon Heist.

The problem: Because I hadn't eaten before the game or during our mid break, I wasn't focused and my Paladin ordered the party Sorcerer to fireball a cluster of Driders surrounding a group of Hobgoblins. The issue being that these Hobgoblins were part of an allied faction, and my character would have known this and made efforts to save them rather than hastily ask the Sorcerer to fireball a clustered group of enemies so I (the player) could run off for pizza. I'd also suggested that the Sorcerer scrap all of their equipment instead of sitting through our DM listing off loot for him to gather (he's a bit of a loot monkey and a group solution to this was to give him a sort of alchemy bag that breaks adventuring gear down into a percentage of its typical worth)

It wasn't until I was fed and more lucid that, in a conversation with the DM later, he reminded me of this and it became an issue. This is a decidedly out of character moment for this Paladin and now I'm flailing about in my head for solutions to make this right. My first idea is something that may be considered overcompensating by gathering up the bodies of the hobgoblins and having them resurrected by one of our parties contacts (we're into tier 4 at this point, the cost is negligible) but I don't want to derail our current mission, which is likely time sensitive, with patching up my mistakes.

What can I do about this? Is this just going to be something my Paladin struggles with being unable to easily fix? Is it something even worth agonizing over, since I'm probably the only one in the party overly upset by this? It's been creeping in the back of my mind for the better part of a week since.

[Man_Over_Game]

Talk to the DM about making a solution. You shouldn't ruin the plot because you were playing under less-than-ideal circumstances.

If I was DMing, I'd incorporate some kind of disease, curse or infection that caused you to make rash or bloodthirsty decisions. Do you ignore it for now (as your teammates probably wouldn't care too much), or does it become a priority to ensure it doesn't become worse?

Fact is, it'd make a much better story if your Paladin wasn't right in the head through an outside source, rather pull a Homer Simpson moment of "Oh, I guess I told you to melt those guys into oblivion. My bad!"

It can still haunt your Paladin, but now it's in a much more realistic way.

[Lupine]

Talk to the DM about making a solution. You shouldn't ruin the plot because you were playing under less-than-ideal circumstances.

If I was DMing, I'd incorporate some kind of disease, curse or infection that caused you to make rash or bloodthirsty decisions. Do you ignore it for now (as your teammates probably wouldn't care too much), or does it become a priority to ensure it doesn't become worse?

Fact is, it'd make a much better story if your Paladin wasn't right in the head through an outside source, rather pull a Homer Simpson moment of "Oh, I guess I told you to melt those guys into oblivion. My bad!"

It can still haunt your Paladin, but now it's in a much more realistic way.

MOG’s right.

I wonder if I’ll ever get tired of saying that

[djreynolds]

MOG’s right.

I wonder if I’ll ever get tired of saying that

Very true. Never wrong. Right? Always keen insights. A bit scary...

Back to the OP

Nothing like a grieving emotional paladin to game play.

It's great.

You must atone.... and the rest of the party is dragged through hell and back to appease your conscience and do the right thing.

Think of table debates between you and the rogue and the fighter. They'll help for your share of the loot.

It's wonderful

[Demonslayer666]

Depends on the faction and the hobgoblins. If you were allied with some shady folk to get the job done, then I wouldn't worry about it too much. Make a donation to them, or to the church in their name and roleplay up some regret at a hasty decision. They were hobgoblins after all. The atonement shouldn't be excessive, and should be pretty minor since all you did was set back the faction some muscle (assuming the hobgoblins were hired mercenaries). Smooth things over with the faction and call it good.

The hobgoblins were granted a swift death instead of being killed by the driders in front of each other.

[D+1]

"I never said to do that. I said DON'T do that." "No you definitively said to fireball them." "Well then you must have misheard me. I would never tell you to fireball our allies - and why would you do so even if I DID tell you to? Whose side are YOU on?"

"WHAT?! I said that? I must have been under a spell to have said such a thing because we all know I am quite above such dastardly action. We must all be more cautious and watch for enemy spellcasters. Meanwhile, we must apologize for the misunderstanding."

[JackPhoenix]

Is the sorcerer incapable of making his own decisions? Your paladin may have made the suggestion, but it was still the sorcerer who blew them up.

[Spo]

I DON’T like “the devil made me do it” outside influence/watering down responsibly approach already suggested. People have bad days and make mistakes. Own them. Is your paladin brave enough to accept responsibility for their actions or the kind of person that shifts the blame?

Character growth comes from doing the right thing even when it is not easy or convenient.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Is the sorcerer incapable of making his own decisions? Your paladin may have made the suggestion, but it was still the sorcerer who blew them up.

In character, my paladin is the field leader of the group and the party tends to look at me for advice. Out of character, the mistake was a group one, as we all had forgotten that we were told by the hobgoblins leader that a squad had gone missing in our mission area.

The Sorcerer's only fault in this case was following bad orders, it was not his (in or out of character) first choice to attack that cluster of enemies, he had planned initially to use chain lightning on a cluster of only Drider. The rest of the party is really only at fault for not stopping it, if you can even blame them for not picking up on this split second decision.


I DON’T like “the devil made me do it” outside influence/watering down responsibly approach already suggested. People have bad days and make mistakes. Own them. Is your paladin brave enough to accept responsibility for their actions or the kind of person that shifts the blame?

Character growth comes from doing the right thing even when it is not easy or convenient.
I'm not a fan of it necessarily either but the nature of DotMM makes it a plausible solution. The only issue is that aside from this moment, my paladin acted as usual, taking hits for the party, buffing them and generally being the selfless good guy I made him to be. It would still feel contrived despite being something that could have reasonably excused it because it would have only influenced this one moment.

But it also doesn't exactly make sense that he would have done it assuming there was no influence. That's a large part of the dilemma, it's such an incredible out of character moment that came out of nowhere.

I am a little upset that the DM didn't remind us of this when I made the order but I'm just as much at fault, or moreso, for not paying attention.

[Spo]

I'm not a fan of it necessarily either but [insert excuse]

I am a little upset that the DM didn't remind us [avoid responsibility].

Good people make mistakes. Good leaders take responsibility for their bad orders.

You are missing a great role playing opportunity for redemption if you take the easy recon approach.

[Keravath]

All the players in the group forgot that the hobgoblin leader had mentioned in passing that a hobgoblin patrol was missing. Why assume that only the players could forget this? The characters could have forgotten too depending on how much time had passed, whether their entire mission was related to rescuing the missing hobgoblins or how significant the comment was when they first heard it.

It doesn't seem at all surprising that the paladin character could have forgotten as much as the player did. This is even more true if you have the typical paladin intelligence of 8-10 (usually ends up here if using point buy). Not too surprising in such a case that the character might forget too.

There are other explanations possible ..
- the driders were a much bigger threat that needed to be dealt with and perhaps your party didn't recognize THESE hobgoblins as being from an allied faction
- perhaps the party didn't really notice the hobgoblins much at all since driders are typically bigger and might block your view, this also might make it harder to recognize the hobgoblins

So, honestly, I'd probably just roleplay the guilt of your paladin forgetting that they were on the look out for a missing group of allied hobgoblins when in the heat of battle they decided it was more important to take care of the driders.

Another factor is what paladin oath you are following ... for pretty much anything except devotion the events might not be much of an issue depending on the character objectives at the time and whether they prioritize saving the prisoners over mission objectives or not.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Good people make mistakes. Good leaders take responsibility for their bad orders.

You are missing a great role playing opportunity for redemption if you take the easy recon approach.

I'm a bit offended that you'd take my very clearly pointing out that I'm both not a fan of the idea and that in this instance, despite it being a plausible solution, it wouldn't fit easily here as excuses and shifting blame. I fully intend to make a point of playing this out, I'm just looking for advice on how to do this without turning the next session into "my Paladin overcompensates after making a mistake and the other players have to watch."

I should point out also, even if I don't like it, MoG's solution is a good one. It doesn't break the narrative and it could reasonably have happened.


All the players in the group forgot that the hobgoblin leader had mentioned in passing that a hobgoblin patrol was missing. Why assume that only the players could forget this? The characters could have forgotten too depending on how much time had passed, whether their entire mission was related to rescuing the missing hobgoblins or how significant the comment was when they first heard it.
Not that much time, the Hobgoblins encampment was on the way and we were told on our way through. At most 12 hours between. It would be one week between when the players were told this, as we traveled and arrived at the mission location at the end of the session the week previously.


It doesn't seem at all surprising that the paladin character could have forgotten as much as the player did. This is even more true if you have the typical paladin intelligence of 8-10 (usually ends up here if using point buy). Not too surprising in such a case that the character might forget too.
Both an awful assumption to make and entirely correct. :amused:


There are other explanations possible ..
- the driders were a much bigger threat that needed to be dealt with and perhaps your party didn't recognize THESE hobgoblins as being from an allied faction
- perhaps the party didn't really notice the hobgoblins much at all since driders are typically bigger and might block your view, this also might make it harder to recognize the hobgoblins

So, honestly, I'd probably just roleplay the guilt of your paladin forgetting that they were on the look out for a missing group of allied hobgoblins when in the heat of battle they decided it was more important to take care of the driders.
The Driders were a much larger threat, being modified as part of the DM scaling difficult up. If we hadn't done most of the Hobgoblin killing it's unlikely that they would have survived anyway, not that it's an excuse.


Another factor is what paladin oath you are following ... for pretty much anything except devotion the events might not be much of an issue depending on the character objectives at the time and whether they prioritize saving the prisoners over mission objectives or not.
A Redemption Paladin, which makes thing difficult because because he was hoping that the hobgoblins who lived here could become an allied force for the people being sent down by Laeral Silverhand as an effort to "colonize" the early levels of Undermountain as Halaster's influence is being suspected to now reach beyond it. Having killed this squadron while on mission from Laeral could make a relationship difficult politically, so that's another layer to the issue.

The biggest lesson I've learned in all of this is to not skip breakfast, it really is the most important meal of the day.

[JackPhoenix]

With more details available, it sounds more and more like plausible mistake even in character. Similar friendly fire incidents happened in real world.


IA Redemption Paladin, which makes thing difficult because because he was hoping that the hobgoblins who lived here could become an allied force for the people being sent down by Laeral Silverhand as an effort to "colonize" the early levels of Undermountain as Halaster's influence is being suspected to now reach beyond it. Having killed this squadron while on mission from Laeral could make a relationship difficult politically, so that's another layer to the issue.

Will it, though? Undermountain is dangerous, a squad disappearing in there shouldn't raise much suspicion. You DID make sure there are no surviving witnesses beyond your group, right?:redcloak:

[D+1]

Character growth comes from doing the right thing even when it is not easy or convenient.
Me, on the other hand, I'm not a fan of punishing PC's in character for out-of-character mistakes (much less ASKING for punishment as a personal exercise in "character growth" because I messed up something as a player and nobody else - especially the DM - had the attention or kind sense to suggest to me as a player how silly I was being before it became graven in stone as Canon). Since the request is actually for ideas on how to fix OUT-of-character mistakes by IN-character means I think this definitely would be a last resort for me.

Really the solution lies with the DM. How much grief is the DM going to inflict on the PC/player for the mistake and why? If the DM is willing to gloss it over, let it slide, then the problem is solved. If the DM is being downright vindictive then there is no "fixing" it in-character, there is only dealing with the consequences in-character. A subtle difference but an important one.

[ProsecutorGodot]

WithWill it, though? Undermountain is dangerous, a squad disappearing in there shouldn't raise much suspicion. You DID make sure there are no surviving witnesses beyond your group, right?:redcloak:

That's almost by definition the most abhorrent solution.
This character is a modified and recycled version of the first 5E PC that I made, which was intended to run through Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Due to "unfortunate circumstances" the character died very early. The DM was willing to have the character, the very same version that died, be resurrected for this running of DoTMM which takes place much much later. History was written by his family, since there were no surviving witnesses to the Blue Dragons death in Greenest, that he was the hero who saved it and had succumbed to his wounds and died doing so.

A point of his adventuring into Undermountain was to make a true heroic tale for himself and to earn wealth and resources to discover the identity of the true hero of Greenest. Just recently we'd gone to great lengths to set the process in motion of striking the falsehoods his family had spread from what institutions would have written and distributed them.


Me, on the other hand, I'm not a fan of punishing PC's in character for out-of-character mistakes (much less ASKING for punishment as a personal exercise in "character growth" because I messed up something as a player and nobody else - especially the DM - had the attention or kind sense to suggest to me as a player how silly I was being before it became graven in stone as Canon). Since the request is actually for ideas on how to fix OUT-of-character mistakes by IN-character means I think this definitely would be a last resort for me.

Really the solution lies with the DM. How much grief is the DM going to inflict on the PC/player for the mistake and why? If the DM is willing to gloss it over, let it slide, then the problem is solved. If the DM is being downright vindictive then there is no "fixing" it in-character, there is only dealing with the consequences in-character. A subtle difference but an important one.
We'll see how much of a problem it really becomes this tomorrow when we play, I could be overreacting but at the very least I intend to own up to these actions directly to the Hobgoblins leader. It could be disastrous and seen as a betrayal of trust, or he could have resigned those Hobgoblins to death already and he's not the least bit concerned with how they died.

Appreciate all the advice, it's given me a lot to think about and I'll have to see if I can catch the DM before our session to talk things over.

[prabe]

Really the solution lies with the DM. How much grief is the DM going to inflict on the PC/player for the mistake and why? If the DM is willing to gloss it over, let it slide, then the problem is solved. If the DM is being downright vindictive then there is no "fixing" it in-character, there is only dealing with the consequences in-character. A subtle difference but an important one.

Pretty much this. Talk to your DM away from the table about this. Brainstorm about whether to retcon things and how much, see if you think the rest of the table should have any input. If nothing else, having the Oath of Redemption Paladin seeking redemption seems as though it could be an interesting story, if y'all are doing the sort of campaign where that matters.

[furby076]

If the DM doesn't care, neither should you.

John Milton: "Guilt is like a bag of f** bricks. All ya gotta do is set it down"