recreating the warlock for coming campaign, not short rest dependent

[Wrath Of Grapes]

For a new campaign I wanted to play a warlock, but the class is banned by the GM. This is mostly because my GM feels that the warlock short rest mechanic doesn't jive well with other classes.

To resolve this I proposed to try and create a warlock that is not dependent on short rests, I proposed to create this as a sorcerer archetype. Tough I would like to use the warlock archetypes as is if possible, so I would like to recreate the warlock class based on the sorcerer switching out some abilities, and would like the help of people here for ideas and feedback.

My first rough attempt, changes are noted with an asterisk(*)

hit dice 1d6*
saves wisdom, charisma
armor light armor
weapons simple

lvl 1 Otherworldy patron (expanded spell list become bonus spells known)*, Spellcasting (as sorcerer)*
lvl 2 Eldritch invocations* (lvl 2 / 6 / 10 / 14 / 18)
lvl 3 Pact boon
lvl 4 Ability score improvement / feat
lvl 5 -
lvl 6 Otherworldy patron feature
lvl 7 -
lvl 8 Ability score improvement / feat
lvl 9 -
lvl 10 Otherworldy patron feature
lvl 11 -
lvl 12 Ability score improvement / feat
lvl 13 -
lvl 14 Otherworldy patron feature
lvl 15 -
lvl 16 Ability score improvement / feat
lvl 17 -
lvl 18 -
lvl 19 Ability score improvement / feat
lvl 20 Patron's favor*

Hit dice: 1d6 seemed more reasonable given increased spellcasting prowess

Otherworldy patron: expanded spell list become bonus spells, thematically appropriate and sticks closer to the sorcerer

Spellcasting: As sorcerer, might use either the warlock or sorcerer list or possibly a blend of the both

Eldritch invocations: I toned the number of invocations down a bit and spread them out a bit, requirements might need slight adjusting

Patron's favor: When you cast a patron spell it also heals you 2 hit points per spell level, patron spells also use no components of any kind


Would this turn out balanced, too weak, too strong, anything you would change or add?

[Garfunion]

Perhaps there’s another solution to your warlock problem that may not involve redesigning the class.

What kind of character are you trying to make? What exactly do you want your character to do?

[Garfunion]

Actually how about an alternative direction. We giving the warlock the same spell slot progression as a normal full caster however they don’t get any spell slot levels past 5th. So a level 20 warlock would have 4(1st), 3(2nd), 3(3rd), 3(4th), and 3(5th) level spell slots.
Mystical Arcanum uses no spell slot but can only be used once per day per mystical Arcanum spell. Leave invocation progression alone and any invocation that allows you to cast a spell once per day using a spell slot just doesn’t use a spell slot.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

For a new campaign I wanted to play a warlock, but the class is banned by the GM. This is mostly because my GM feels that the warlock short rest mechanic doesn't jive well with other classes.

To resolve this I proposed to try and create a warlock that is not dependent on short rests, I proposed to create this as a sorcerer archetype. Tough I would like to use the warlock archetypes as is if possible, so I would like to recreate the warlock class based on the sorcerer switching out some abilities, and would like the help of people here for ideas and feedback.

My first rough attempt, changes are noted with an asterisk(*)

hit dice 1d6*
saves wisdom, charisma
armor light armor
weapons simple

lvl 1 Otherworldy patron (expanded spell list become bonus spells known)*, Spellcasting (as sorcerer)*
lvl 2 Eldritch invocations* (lvl 2 / 6 / 10 / 14 / 18)
lvl 3 Pact boon
lvl 4 Ability score improvement / feat
lvl 5 -
lvl 6 Otherworldy patron feature
lvl 7 -
lvl 8 Ability score improvement / feat
lvl 9 -
lvl 10 Otherworldy patron feature
lvl 11 -
lvl 12 Ability score improvement / feat
lvl 13 -
lvl 14 Otherworldy patron feature
lvl 15 -
lvl 16 Ability score improvement / feat
lvl 17 -
lvl 18 -
lvl 19 Ability score improvement / feat
lvl 20 Patron's favor*

Hit dice: 1d6 seemed more reasonable given increased spellcasting prowess

Otherworldy patron: expanded spell list become bonus spells, thematically appropriate and sticks closer to the sorcerer

Spellcasting: As sorcerer, might use either the warlock or sorcerer list or possibly a blend of the both

Eldritch invocations: I toned the number of invocations down a bit and spread them out a bit, requirements might need slight adjusting

Patron's favor: When you cast a patron spell it also heals you 2 hit points per spell level, patron spells also use no components of any kind


Would this turn out balanced, too weak, too strong, anything you would change or add?

You got a weird DM.


If you don't want the short rest casting, I would keep keep everything else the same, but give it the half caster spellcasting set up of the paladin. Same spells per day, number of spells known, and just give the Warlock Cantrips (paladins in a recent UA can gain Cantrips).

Keep the d8 hit die and everything else as the base warlock, including mystic arcarnum and invocations as normal.

[Wrath Of Grapes]

Perhaps there’s another solution to your warlock problem that may not involve redesigning the class.

What kind of character are you trying to make? What exactly do you want your character to do?

Background:

When a band of crusaders struck down a fiend, it didn't die but instead possessed the unborn child of a celestial sorceress that was the soul survivor of that battle. The mother died in child birth but the child was adopted by monks and raised on the grounds of a monastery.
The demon manifests itself to her as lost souls that implore her to use their power for good to redeem them and set them free. Ironically the demon and the girl are not separate beings but rather they melded into a single entity. The demon long ago devoured the child's soul, but in it's weakened state it lost part of itself to the celestial spark within the child. Now it faces an internal struggle that might split it apart.

I was going for warlock (fiend) for this. I am not that picky on abilities but figured I could make it work with sorcerer though the sorcerer abilities fall a bit flat theme wise. Though dragon sorcerer could work.

[Wrath Of Grapes]

Actually how about an alternative direction. We giving the warlock the same spell slot progression as a normal full caster however they don’t get any spell slot levels past 5th. So a level 20 warlock would have 4(1st), 3(2nd), 3(3rd), 3(4th), and 3(5th) level spell slots.
Mystical Arcanum uses no spell slot but can only be used once per day per mystical Arcanum spell. Leave invocation progression alone and any invocation that allows you to cast a spell once per day using a spell slot just doesn’t use a spell slot.

That might not be a terrible suggestion I'll work it through, and see how that looks. Thanks!

[Wrath Of Grapes]

You got a weird DM.


If you don't want the short rest casting, I would keep keep everything else the same, but give it the half caster spellcasting set up of the paladin. Same spells per day, number of spells known, and just give the Warlock Cantrips (paladins in a recent UA can gain Cantrips).

Keep the d8 hit die and everything else as the base warlock, including mystic arcarnum and invocations as normal.

Half caster progression has some issues like starting with no spells and gaining spells (too) slowly, the character would lag behind too much I am afraid.

[Garfunion]

Background:

When a band of crusaders struck down a fiend, it didn't die but instead possessed the unborn child of a celestial sorceress that was the soul survivor of that battle. The mother died in child birth but the child was adopted by monks and raised on the grounds of a monastery.
The demon manifests itself to her as lost souls that implore her to use their power for good to redeem them and set them free. Ironically the demon and the girl are not separate beings but rather they melded into a single entity. The demon long ago devoured the child's soul, but in it's weakened state it lost part of itself to the celestial spark within the child. Now it faces an internal struggle that might split it apart.

I was going for warlock (fiend) for this. I am not that picky on abilities but figured I could make it work with sorcerer though the sorcerer abilities fall a bit flat theme wise. Though dragon sorcerer could work.
This is almost the background story of a divine soul sorcerer Yuan-Ti Pureblood a have plans to make. The Yuan-Ti cult captured and sacrificed a Couatl to a demon. The demon possessed the Couatl body but it’s soul wasn’t ripe yet to eat. So they put the soul into an unborn Yuan-Ti child. As the child grew up it had more emotions than most of its kind. On the day the child was meant to be sacrificed something happened and the child escaped. The child would later grow up and start exhibiting divine soul sorcerer powers.


Perhaps a divine soul sorcerer would be better for your character. What warlock features are you really wanting your character to have?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Half caster progression has some issues like starting with no spells and gaining spells (too) slowly, the character would lag behind too much I am afraid.

Give them Cantrips at first level.



But it seems you want to boost the power of the warlock while changing things.

I would say just take Sorcerer, give it the warlock-specific spells from the PHB as bonus spells, and then work in the subclasses of the warlock into the Sorcerer.

A Fiend Sorcerer, GOO Sorcerer, or Fey Sorcerer could be fun.

[Wrath Of Grapes]

This is almost the background story of a divine soul sorcerer Yuan-Ti Pureblood a have plans to make. The Yuan-Ti cult captured and sacrificed a Couatl to a demon. The demon possessed the Couatl body but it’s soul wasn’t ripe yet to eat. So they put the soul into an unborn Yuan-Ti child. As the child grew up it had more emotions than most of its kind. On the day the child was meant to be sacrificed something happened and the child escaped. The child would later grow up and start exhibiting divine soul sorcerer powers.


Perhaps a divine soul sorcerer would be better for your character. What warlock features are you really wanting your character to have?

Inspired by the demon spirit novel -series by r.a. salvatore really. Thought to mix some Joan of Arc complex, but haven't exactly fleshed it out yet.

Ideally, I need some 'dark' powers to reflect my character's state of mind in her more emotional moments when the demon spirit asserts itself.
I want the character to be an essentially 'good' character though so some beneficial powers and spells might reinforce that.

Fiend seemed thematically appropriate.

[Wrath Of Grapes]

Give them Cantrips at first level.



But it seems you want to boost the power of the warlock while changing things.

I would say just take Sorcerer, give it the warlock-specific spells from the PHB as bonus spells, and then work in the subclasses of the warlock into the Sorcerer.

A Fiend Sorcerer, GOO Sorcerer, or Fey Sorcerer could be fun.

no, I don't need to boost the power of the warlock but neither do I want to drag the party down. Going paladin progression also seems clunky with no spell slots at first and then going from 3rd level spells to 6th level arcanum. At level 20 it would be balanced just fine, but before not so much. I think.

I was going for a fiend 'sorcerer', but might have gone wrong in a few places to try and make it too much like a warlock instead of a sorcerer with fiend pact.

[Garfunion]

Inspired by the demon spirit novel -series by r.a. salvatore really. Thought to mix some Joan of Arc complex, but haven't exactly fleshed it out yet.

Ideally, I need some 'dark' powers to reflect my character's state of mind in her more emotional moments when the demon spirit asserts itself.
I want the character to be an essentially 'good' character though so some beneficial powers and spells might reinforce that.

Fiend seemed thematically appropriate.
I think we can use the divine soul blood line in order to get what you want. We will call this Ill-fated bloodline.

1st level) Corrupted Magic
Similar wording to Divine magic but you have access to warlock spells instead of cleric. No alignment bonus spell.

1st level) Dark Invocations
You learn one warlock invocation. Treat your sorcerer levels as warlock levels for the purpose of level prerequisites. Additionally when you are able to learn a meta-magic, you may instead learn a warlock invocation. Anytime you gain a sorcerer level you may replace one invocation you know with another that you meet the prerequisites for.

6th level) Cruel Blessing
Starting 6th level, when you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points or a creature within 10 feet of you is reduced to 0 hit points, you may spend 2 sorcery point to gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier + your sorcerer level (minimum of 1).

14th level) Gift Of The Nine
Starting at 14th level, you can use a bonus action to manifest a pair of spectral wings from your back. While the wings are present, you have a flying speed of 30 feet. The wings last until you're incapacitated, you die, or you dismiss them as a bonus action.

18th level) Hurl Through Nightmares
Starting at 18th level, when you hit a creature with an attack or it fail a saving throw from one of your spells, you can spend 5 sorcery points to instantly transport the target through the outer planes. The creature disappears and hurtles through a nightmare landscape.

At the end of your next turn, the target returns to the space it previously occupied, or the nearest unoccupied space. They take 5d10 psychic damage as it reels from its horrific experience.

[Yakk]

Just swap out mystic arcanum and pact magic for normal spellcasting.

And write a new capstone.

Warlock pact magic is supposed to be full spellcasting. At 2-3 short rests/day, it matches it.

[Garfunion]

Just swap out mystic arcanum and pact magic for normal spellcasting.

And write a new capstone.

Warlock pact magic is supposed to be full spellcasting. At 2-3 short rests/day, it matches it.

The problem with that is, the warlock class with its unique spells and invocations are designed to run out of spell slots in between short rests. Giving them normal spell slot progression would unbalance the invocations and unique warlock spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I dunno about a long rest based Warlock, but I've got a non-rest based Warlock rewrite (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?569312-Spell-Less-Warlock-Redesign) that replaces spellcasting entirely with a greatly expanded set of Invocations.

[Yakk]

The problem with that is, the warlock class with its unique spells and invocations are designed to run out of spell slots in between short rests. Giving them normal spell slot progression would unbalance the invocations and unique warlock spells.
Interesting theory.

Name 1?

[Garfunion]

Interesting theory.

Name 1?
Invocations
bewitching whispers
dreadful word
minions of chaos
mire the mind
sculptor of flesh
...... etc
Each one of these invocations requires you to spend a spell slot and if you have more spell slots to spend it will be easier for you to justify picking these invocations. Yes they are once per day but you now have more spell slots to spend.

Spells
Shadow of Moil
Hunger of Hadar

These spell are also pretty potent and well be castable more often.

[Yakk]

Sure; you have to limit it to "a spell slot of sufficient level" on some invocations (that was built in before, because a 7th level warlock only has 4th+ level slots).

Good point.

The actual spells? Look like mediocre concentration spells. They are no "animate objects".

[Wrath Of Grapes]

I think we can use the divine soul blood line in order to get what you want. We will call this Ill-fated bloodline.

1st level) Corrupted Magic
Similar wording to Divine magic but you have access to warlock spells instead of cleric. No alignment bonus spell.

1st level) Dark Invocations
You learn one warlock invocation. Treat your sorcerer levels as warlock levels for the purpose of level prerequisites. Additionally when you are able to learn a meta-magic, you may instead learn a warlock invocation. Anytime you gain a sorcerer level you may replace one invocation you know with another that you meet the prerequisites for.

6th level) Cruel Blessing
Starting 6th level, when you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points or a creature within 10 feet of you is reduced to 0 hit points, you may spend 2 sorcery point to gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier + your sorcerer level (minimum of 1).

14th level) Gift Of The Nine
Starting at 14th level, you can use a bonus action to manifest a pair of spectral wings from your back. While the wings are present, you have a flying speed of 30 feet. The wings last until you're incapacitated, you die, or you dismiss them as a bonus action.

18th level) Hurl Through Nightmares
Starting at 18th level, when you hit a creature with an attack or it fail a saving throw from one of your spells, you can spend 5 sorcery points to instantly transport the target through the outer planes. The creature disappears and hurtles through a nightmare landscape.

At the end of your next turn, the target returns to the space it previously occupied, or the nearest unoccupied space. They take 5d10 psychic damage as it reels from its horrific experience.

It's interesting, not sure I am completely sold on it as is, but I will spend time actually creating a character and see what there is to like and see what needs to be be adjusted. At the very least it gave me some building blocks to play around with.

[Wrath Of Grapes]

The problem with that is, the warlock class with its unique spells and invocations are designed to run out of spell slots in between short rests. Giving them normal spell slot progression would unbalance the invocations and unique warlock spells.

That might be true, though I found the powers that use spell slots to be fairly underwhelming in the past, flavor and power wise. I never actually played a warlock though, so I don't have much in the way of experience there in actual gameplay.

[Wrath Of Grapes]

I dunno about a long rest based Warlock, but I've got a non-rest based Warlock rewrite (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?569312-Spell-Less-Warlock-Redesign) that replaces spellcasting entirely with a greatly expanded set of Invocations.

it looks interesting but it is very hard to see how the class works without actually playing it, did you play test it yet?

How does it function compared to the original warlock and other classes in game play?

[Garfunion]

It's interesting, not sure I am completely sold on it as is, but I will spend time actually creating a character and see what there is to like and see what needs to be be adjusted. At the very least it gave me some building blocks to play around with.
It’s is something, although I should have made it more of a general archetype instead of trying to mimic the fiend patron.


That might be true, though I found the powers that use spell slots to be fairly underwhelming in the past, flavor and power wise. I never actually played a warlock though, so I don't have much in the way of experience there in actual gameplay.
All I know is that you would be giving the warlock higher level spell slots that they normally would not have. The mystical arcanum doesn’t give spell slots, just access to cast a 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells.

I think my half(full caster) spell slot progression is the simplest and less abusive option. As for multiclassing.. don’t, unless it is a non-caster class (including 1/4 caster archetypes).

[Grod_The_Giant]

it looks interesting but it is very hard to see how the class works without actually playing it, did you play test it yet?

How does it function compared to the original warlock and other classes in game play?
I've had a player running a fiend-pact bladelock using the rewrite for a while now (levels 8-12, I think). He's been having a lot of fun, and stacking up just fine with the other players. The class still runs like the original Warlock does-- you mostly lean on Eldritch Blast (or your weapon, if a bladelock), augmented by magic. Where exactly the balance falls will depend a lot on your Invocation choices. My player mostly took mobility and attack-boosting Invocations, making him something of a bouncy ball of death*, but you could certainly build yourself to focus more on control, support, even minion-mancy. It's a very choice-oriented class.


*I guess you could compare him to a monk?



All I know is that you would be giving the warlock higher level spell slots that they normally would not have. The mystical arcanum doesn’t give spell slots, just access to cast a 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells.
Eh. It's roughly equivalent to spending an Invocation slot for an extra spell known. I'm fine with that; if anything, it's a bit weaker.