Either I'm reading this wrong, or Mobile Flourish is really powerful

[Lupine]

Recently, one of my players was fighting a behir. Under that text, a player hit by the constrict attack is grappled. As it happens, the grappled player was a college of swords bard. He used the mobile flourish, and pushed the behir far enough away to run away.

I went with it, and the behir simply went after someone less mobile, and the bard did it again, freeing his trapped ally. Ok, fine. Cool ability.

But the text does not seem to suggest that the hit creature gets a save. It simply says, "you can also push the target up to 5 feet away from you." (XGtE, page 15). This seems very broken, as it would mean that grappling just doesn't work on parties with a sword bard.

Is this reading right? It would seem really powerful, as it means that a level 14 sword bard could just continuously push back creatures, no save. No save, pushing them back off a cliff. Right?

[8wGremlin]

You can expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration to cause the weapon to deal extra damage to the target you hit. The damage equals the number you roll on the Bardic Inspiration die. You can also push the target up to 5 feet away from you, plus a number of feet equal to the number you roll on that die. You can then immediately use your reaction to move up to your walking speed to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the target.

How many bardic inspiration dice did they have, and how many did they use.

If he's 14th level then yes he can do that all day long, if he hits.
Same as a 2nd level warlock with the Repelling Blast Invocation using Eldritch blast. (it's not broken, it's just effective)

[prabe]

Recently, one of my players was fighting a behir. Under that text, a player hit by the constrict attack is grappled. As it happens, the grappled player was a college of swords bard. He used the mobile flourish, and pushed the behir far enough away to run away.

I went with it, and the behir simply went after someone less mobile, and the bard did it again, freeing his trapped ally. Ok, fine. Cool ability.

But the text does not seem to suggest that the hit creature gets a save. It simply says, "you can also push the target up to 5 feet away from you." (XGtE, page 15). This seems very broken, as it would mean that grappling just doesn't work on parties with a sword bard.

Is this reading right? It would seem really powerful, as it means that a level 14 sword bard could just continuously push back creatures, no save. No save, pushing them back off a cliff. Right?

So, first of all, this is going to be limited--each use takes one use of Bardic Inspiration. Second, it's 5 feet plus the result of the Bardic Inspiration die. Also, the bard needs to hit the target (not necessarily much of a limitation, I'll grant).

I guess it's a legitimate way to break a grapple, if the bard is grappled.

If the bard isn't the one being grappled, I'd expect the grappling creature to move the grappled character with it. Per the grappling rules, I'd expect it to move half as far as indicated. I wouldn't expect the movement to break the grapple.

Otherwise, yeah. A bard could drive an enemy off a cliff, no save.

So, it's potent, but maybe not as potent as you were thinking, at least as I read it.

[Lupine]

Same as a 2nd level warlock with the Repelling Blast Invocation using Eldritch blast. (it's not broken, it's just effective)

I am never telling my warlock about that. That is ridiculous. At fifth level warlock, thunderwave leads it only seven points in average damage, but is worse in just about every other way. (range, push effect, sound, etc)

I guess the reason the flourish surprises me is that it is a straight boost above Monk's way of open hand. Like, I'd be totally fine with it if it had a save, even with a low DC, but a no-save push is surprising.

Also the name doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the effect....

[WadeWay33]

So, first of all, this is going to be limited--each use takes one use of Bardic Inspiration. Second, it's 5 feet plus the result of the Bardic Inspiration die. Also, the bard needs to hit the target (not necessarily much of a limitation, I'll grant).

I guess it's a legitimate way to break a grapple, if the bard is grappled.

If the bard isn't the one being grappled, I'd expect the grappling creature to move the grappled character with it. Per the grappling rules, I'd expect it to move half as far as indicated. I wouldn't expect the movement to break the grapple.

Otherwise, yeah. A bard could drive an enemy off a cliff, no save.

So, it's potent, but maybe not as potent as you were thinking, at least as I read it.

If it’s a 14th level bard they don’t have to use BI. IIRC They get a free d6 they can use instead for the flourishes.

[prabe]

If it’s a 14th level bard they don’t have to use BI. IIRC They get a free d6 they can use instead for the flourishes.

Sure. Everything else applies--gotta hit and roll enough to move the opponent off the cliff. Only works to break a grapple if the bard's the one grappled.

Also, I agree with Lupine that the name doesn't really fit the effect, but that's a different issue and not really to do with the rules.

[LudicSavant]

Recently, one of my players was fighting a behir. Under that text, a player hit by the constrict attack is grappled. As it happens, the grappled player was a college of swords bard. He used the mobile flourish, and pushed the behir far enough away to run away.

I went with it, and the behir simply went after someone less mobile, and the bard did it again, freeing his trapped ally. Ok, fine. Cool ability.

But the text does not seem to suggest that the hit creature gets a save. It simply says, "you can also push the target up to 5 feet away from you." (XGtE, page 15). This seems very broken, as it would mean that grappling just doesn't work on parties with a sword bard.

Is this reading right? It would seem really powerful, as it means that a level 14 sword bard could just continuously push back creatures, no save. No save, pushing them back off a cliff. Right?

Your interpretation is correct, there's no save. Just like Repelling Blast.

[ezekielraiden]

I am never telling my warlock about that. That is ridiculous. At fifth level warlock, thunderwave leads it only seven points in average damage, but is worse in just about every other way. (range, push effect, sound, etc)

I guess the reason the flourish surprises me is that it is a straight boost above Monk's way of open hand. Like, I'd be totally fine with it if it had a save, even with a low DC, but a no-save push is surprising.

Also the name doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the effect....

So, genuine question: is your typical response to "I'm surprised that this is powerful" to either assert that the rules shouldn't work that way, or to try to conceal it from your players within your ability to do so? Because that opinion repeated in myriad situations is a big part of why most D&D editions are so wonky in balance. It's not the Bard or Warlock that are the problem here. It's the Monk (which, given that some of its other subclasses also have issues, shouldn't be a surprise).

[LudicSavant]

So, genuine question: is your typical response to "I'm surprised that this is powerful" to either assert that the rules shouldn't work that way, or to try to conceal it from your players within your ability to do so? Because that opinion repeated in myriad situations is a big part of why most D&D editions are so wonky in balance.

You can say that again. I think there is something seriously wrong with the mindset "I don't want to let my players know about the rules."

[Crgaston]

If the bard isn't the one being grappled, I'd expect the grappling creature to move the grappled character with it. Per the grappling rules, I'd expect it to move half as far as indicated. I wouldn't expect the movement to break the grapple.



The way you read it is a reasonable interpretation. The way I've seen it played is that forced movement breaks grapples, period. Having a character who can reliably force movement is indeed powerful, but I wouldn't call it broken.

And I'll leave this here...

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/03/11/if-you-shovepush-a-grappler-grappling-an-ally-does-it-break-the-grapple-at-the-cost-of-1-attack/

[Misterwhisper]

The way you read it is a reasonable interpretation. The way I've seen it played is that forced movement breaks grapples, period. Having a character who can reliably force movement is indeed powerful, but I wouldn't call it broken.

And I'll leave this here...

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/03/11/if-you-shovepush-a-grappler-grappling-an-ally-does-it-break-the-grapple-at-the-cost-of-1-attack/

It would depend on the reach of the enemy and range of the shove.

If you are fighting a huge creature with 15ft reach who has someone adjacent grappled, and you push them 5 feet, the grapple wouldn’t break because they are still in reach.

[MaxWilson]

Your interpretation is correct, there's no save. Just like Repelling Blast.

Or a wildshaped druid in Giant Snake form. Breaks grapples by grappling the grappler (attack roll but no save, just like repelling blast and Mobile Flourish and Open Hand monks) and then moving away.

Or a bog-standard Fighter with Athletics proficiency, although that wouldn't work against a behir.

Pushing is one of the best and most common ways to break grapples.

P.S. Also technically by RAW you can grapple your buddy yourself and drag him out of the monster's reach, since grappling just sets your buddy's speed to zero, not yours. In actual play I'd expect a DM to require a Strength contest between you and the monster.

[Crgaston]

It would depend on the reach of the enemy and range of the shove.

If you are fighting a huge creature with 15ft reach who has someone adjacent grappled, and you push them 5 feet, the grapple wouldn’t break because they are still in reach.

You are correct. I should have said "...forced movement greater than the grappler's reach..."

[AHF]

Does Mantle of Inspiration also break grapples?

[1Pirate]

No. MoI movement is based off of a creature's speed. A grappled creature has a speed of 0.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm not too worried about it. Bards have to sacrifice quite a bit in order to be a Swords Bard, since:


Most of their spells are Concentration, especially their combat spells. Not great as a melee combatant.
A Bard attacking is a Bard not casting a spell.
Bards have a 1d8 Hit Die and Swords Bards don't get shields.
Bards have few defensive spells.


In a way, it's like a Pact of the Blade Hexblade...that doesn't do damage. It's gotta do something well.

It can be kind of a hassle to work around with an Eldritch Blast Warlock (especially when combined with a PAM Fighter), but someone spending most of their time enhancing a cantrip isn't going to bust anything. Personally, I've had more scenarios with Evocation Wizards just melting the battlefield on a whim than I have of an EB Warlock trivializing a grappler.

[Catullus64]

While we're on the subject of Mobile Flourish, what the heck is up with its secondary effect, the one where you spend your reaction for extra movement... to a space within 5 feet of the creature you just moved? Am I the only one a little bit baffled by that? I'm not saying I can't conceive of that ever being useful, but I have no idea what the design intent was. The naming implies that this is a skirmishing, hit-and-run move, but this very much runs up against it.

I suppose the idea is to make it something of a support/tanking maneuver. Push the enemy away from an ally and then move to engage them in that space. But with the push being so short range, most enemies can just step around you, without leaving your reach, and be right back in thwacking range of your ally, unless initiative lines up just right so that your ally can then move out of the way. And if you use your one-flourish-per-turn on Mobile, that means no Defensive flourish, so making an enemy focus on you suddenly became a lot less appealing. This part of the feature isn't broken or terrible, it's just... weird.

[Galithar]

While we're on the subject of Mobile Flourish, what the heck is up with its secondary effect, the one where you spend your reaction for extra movement... to a space within 5 feet of the creature you just moved? Am I the only one a little bit baffled by that? I'm not saying I can't conceive of that ever being useful, but I have no idea what the design intent was. The naming implies that this is a skirmishing, hit-and-run move, but this very much runs up against it.

I suppose the idea is to make it something of a support/tanking maneuver. Push the enemy away from an ally and then move to engage them in that space. But with the push being so short range, most enemies can just step around you, without leaving your reach, and be right back in thwacking range of your ally, unless initiative lines up just right so that your ally can then move out of the way. And if you use your one-flourish-per-turn on Mobile, that means no Defensive flourish, so making an enemy focus on you suddenly became a lot less appealing. This part of the feature isn't broken or terrible, it's just... weird.

You can always move them, and then move to the side opposite your ally? Then if they move towards your ally they are immediately leaving your reach and you can shwack them. Moving so that either A you won't be grouped up for an enemy AoE or B moving to help setup an allies AoE?

It's niche sure, but I see uses for it.

[Chad.e.clark]

Another caveat abput Mobile Flourish is that it doesn't specifiy the weapon attack must be a melee weapon attack, therefore you could theoretically use a simple ranged weapon, such as a dart or a sling or even toss a dagger at range to proc Mobile Flourish.

Between hazards, difficult terrain, elevation, and other characters, being able to reposition an enemy at range and have the option to reposition yourself is deinitely a useful ability. Swords Bards also don't have too many options fighting for their reaction, counter-spell and Shield being 2 that pop into mind, but both of those require either magical secrets, which means waiting til level 10 if straight Swords Bard, Magic Initiate for a 1/day casting of Shield (personally I find this a tough option to get excited about) or multiclassing (*cough* *cough* Hexblade *cough**cough* get shield proficiency and Shield and and Toll the Dead for when targetting Saves is more appealling than targetting AC and maybe Armor of Agathys to cast with higher level spell slots if its not going to dissappear in one hit. **cough**)

[djreynolds]

AFB, how does this work with restrained.

IMO restrained is really just "heaped" onto grapple, I would allow it. But it doesn't specify like it does in the grapple section on pg 290

[Man_Over_Game]

I suppose the idea is to make it something of a support/tanking maneuver. Push the enemy away from an ally and then move to engage them in that space. But with the push being so short range, most enemies can just step around you, without leaving your reach, and be right back in thwacking range of your ally, unless initiative lines up just right so that your ally can then move out of the way. And if you use your one-flourish-per-turn on Mobile, that means no Defensive flourish, so making an enemy focus on you suddenly became a lot less appealing. This part of the feature isn't broken or terrible, it's just... weird.

There's a few things you could do:

Charge after someone, throw a knife, move an additional 30 feet. Basically the Dash action, but with 1d4 + Dueling + Bardic Inspiration damage.

Move around an enemy, push him back into your team while repositioning yourself within your team's area.

Set up a flanking position for your allies (if you're using flanking rules).

[ad_hoc]

While we're on the subject of Mobile Flourish, what the heck is up with its secondary effect, the one where you spend your reaction for extra movement... to a space within 5 feet of the creature you just moved? Am I the only one a little bit baffled by that? I'm not saying I can't conceive of that ever being useful, but I have no idea what the design intent was. The naming implies that this is a skirmishing, hit-and-run move, but this very much runs up against it.

I suppose the idea is to make it something of a support/tanking maneuver. Push the enemy away from an ally and then move to engage them in that space. But with the push being so short range, most enemies can just step around you, without leaving your reach, and be right back in thwacking range of your ally, unless initiative lines up just right so that your ally can then move out of the way. And if you use your one-flourish-per-turn on Mobile, that means no Defensive flourish, so making an enemy focus on you suddenly became a lot less appealing. This part of the feature isn't broken or terrible, it's just... weird.

Every swashbuckling movie has the dashing hero make his foe retreat to a cliff where the hero presses the advantage.

Remember that rules are written narrative first. The game is written to cater to people wanting to create a fantasy story.

It is not made with the lens of being a tabletop skirmish game. If you try to view the rules that way many won't make sense.

[sambojin]

AFB, how does this work with restrained.

IMO restrained is really just "heaped" onto grapple, I would allow it. But it doesn't specify like it does in the grapple section on pg 290

Most(all?) of the beasts' restrains are just tacked onto grappled. They all read "while the target is grappled, blah blah, they're restrained too". So break the grapple and the restrained part isn't happening anymore either.

Spells that restrain like Entangle don't grapple, they just restrain and do their other stuff. Unfortunately they're broken by a Strength check vs your spell DC, which is almost exactly the same as breaking a grapple would be, except there's no proficiency for having Athletics in the roll.

[alchahest]

to note: your spell save DC includes proficiency modifier. What it doesn't include is rolling a D20, it just adds 8 instead.

[Vogie]

Mobile Flourish is worded strangely but has multiple layers to it:

It can be used at range, which is fun with boats, cliffs & castle walls. Bards start with proficiency in simple weapons and Hand Crossbows.
It can be used on any "target", so by attacking an ally, a SB to give a ally a gentle poke out of the way.
Allows a melee swords bard to mini-dash, moving their full movement, then continue moving alongside their pushed target for flanking/sneak attack/AoO purposes.
The secondary effect is also optional, so a SB can also use it as a pseudo-Disengage in melee

[Benny89]

I'm not too worried about it. Bards have to sacrifice quite a bit in order to be a Swords Bard, since:


Most of their spells are Concentration, especially their combat spells. Not great as a melee combatant.
A Bard attacking is a Bard not casting a spell.
Bards have a 1d8 Hit Die and Swords Bards don't get shields.
Bards have few defensive spells.


In a way, it's like a Pact of the Blade Hexblade...that doesn't do damage. It's gotta do something well.

It can be kind of a hassle to work around with an Eldritch Blast Warlock (especially when combined with a PAM Fighter), but someone spending most of their time enhancing a cantrip isn't going to bust anything. Personally, I've had more scenarios with Evocation Wizards just melting the battlefield on a whim than I have of an EB Warlock trivializing a grappler.

Just take Crossbow Expert at level 1, SS at level 5, start with 1 level Hexblade and rest Sword Bard and bum. At level 7 - 3 attacks at 120, all from CHA. Medium Armors, Shields, Shield Spell, Armor of Agathys. Open combat with Fearie Fire/Hypnotic Pattern etc. and lay down constant DPR. Enemy getting closer- Mobile flourish (flourishes work with range attacks) and push him back. Enemy focusing you to break your concentration - Defensive Flourish + Shield Spell on reaction = average +9,5 AC at level 7. For Magic Secrets take Find Greater Steed.

Other option is Hexblade/Whisper Bard, because he can fully use Tenser Tranformation + Haste from his Sim (magic secrets level 14) for 4 attacks per turn with advantage with Sharpshooter while riding his Pegasus. 2 attacks instead of 3 but with Physic Blades. More offense and DPR at cost of less defense (Defensive Flourish is really strong).

[Chugger]

It seems to me there are several big questions here a DM has to answer.

If a bard is grappled and uses this to push the grappling creature away, does it break the grapple? Or does the bard get dragged from the _spot_ where he pushed with the creature?

I'd probably rule that the grapple is broken in this case.

If the bard pushes a creature that has grappled his friend, I'd probably rule that they both get pushed.

What about vehicles in Avernus? Should the DM let a warlock pull a driver out of his Demon Grinder? You could say yes - it happens. You could say he's in a cockpit and has so much stuff in the way that it's a dice check of some sort. Or you could say no, he's strapped in - or he's in a cab or a cage and can't be pulled out.

[djreynolds]

Most(all?) of the beasts' restrains are just tacked onto grappled. They all read "while the target is grappled, blah blah, they're restrained too". So break the grapple and the restrained part isn't happening anymore either.

Spells that restrain like Entangle don't grapple, they just restrain and do their other stuff. Unfortunately they're broken by a Strength check vs your spell DC, which is almost exactly the same as breaking a grapple would be, except there's no proficiency for having Athletics in the roll.

So even restrained you could cast thunderwave?

[Nikushimi]

For me, I find distance weird since we use theatre of the mind in almost all my groups, and only occasionally use a grid. I say this because the Grappled Condition says that if an effect moves the grappler outside of its range of effect that grappled the target, the grapple is broken, but...if the Behir is grappling the target it is restrained as well because the Behir literally wraps itself around the target. Therefore, it is sharing a space.

Now, I know. Rule lawyers, calm yourselves, I know that game rules say that you can't occupy a space. I know, but is it not weird that this creature is literally constricting the player (literally the name of the ability) like a snake? That snake would literally be ON TOP of you.

The space between you an it is nothing. Therefore, if this Bard attempted Mobile Flourish to push this Behir 5ft away, and IF the attack hit (cause it has disadvantage cause the Bard is also restrained, which gives disadvantage on attacks for the Bard) the creature would move 5ft away. What's 5+0? It's 5. So it would still be in range of its constrict ability, which is 5ft, and so wouldn't break the grapple according to the grappled conditions.

Now, maybe you disagree with me, but think about it. If something is literally right on top of you and you push it 5ft away, it is now simply 5ft away. Not 10ft which would be 2 squares, but simply 1 square away, which is 5ft. Meaning it is still within range of its constrict ability.

After all, as I said, 5+0=5. Cause if it has you constricted there is zero, nada, nothing between you and it. No distance between you and the creature.

So, personally, I would rule that it would NOT break the grapple if they are grappled by this creature, or any creature for that matter because it is still within range to grapple, 5ft. Unlike Thunderwave which moves them further, 10ft.
---

On a complete side note, this is a moot point because the creature has movement. It simply moves back towards the bard.

To say "So you can just keep using this to push someone off a cliff?"

No. Considering the creature or person would just be like "Oh, okay..." And walk right back to them. It's only 5ft. So they simply move back to attack them.

Which is what makes the Battle Masters maneuver "Pushing Attack" so silly.

"Oh, you pushed me 15ft...Okay, I'll just move back then."

Meanwhile, the Fighter is just like "Stop man...no. Stay back."

So, long story short. No, I don't think it would break the grapple at all since there is literally no amount of space between it and the creature, so pushing it 5ft back would keep it within reach of its constrict ability, which would not break the grapple.

Just my thoughts on this matter. You're the DM, rule how you see fit.

[Benny89]

For me, I find distance weird since we use theatre of the mind in almost all my groups, and only occasionally use a grid. I say this because the Grappled Condition says that if an effect moves the grappler outside of its range of effect that grappled the target, the grapple is broken, but...if the Behir is grappling the target it is restrained as well because the Behir literally wraps itself around the target. Therefore, it is sharing a space.

Now, I know. Rule lawyers, calm yourselves, I know that game rules say that you can't occupy a space. I know, but is it not weird that this creature is literally constricting the player (literally the name of the ability) like a snake? That snake would literally be ON TOP of you.

The space between you an it is nothing. Therefore, if this Bard attempted Mobile Flourish to push this Behir 5ft away, and IF the attack hit (cause it has disadvantage cause the Bard is also restrained, which gives disadvantage on attacks for the Bard) the creature would move 5ft away. What's 5+0? It's 5. So it would still be in range of its constrict ability, which is 5ft, and so wouldn't break the grapple according to the grappled conditions.

Now, maybe you disagree with me, but think about it. If something is literally right on top of you and you push it 5ft away, it is now simply 5ft away. Not 10ft which would be 2 squares, but simply 1 square away, which is 5ft. Meaning it is still within range of its constrict ability.

After all, as I said, 5+0=5. Cause if it has you constricted there is zero, nada, nothing between you and it. No distance between you and the creature.

Mobile Flourish pushes target back 5 feet PLUS THE NUMBER YOU ROLLED ON INSPIRATION DIE. So he would push him on average 8,5 feet, 9,5 feet; 10,5 feet; 11,5 feet with inspiration dice upgrades.

Also snake doesn't have to constrict target on target grid. Maybe it used only half of his body and rest is still on his grid? Maybe, as snakes do, they prone target while they constrict it (it's easier for snake to constrict horizontally than vertically), so from narrative perspective he is on target grid but he is still on his grid due to his length. Mechanic and rules are actually very viable here and there is no reason to alert them as you can easily suit narrative to them.

[Nikushimi]

Mobile Flourish pushes target back 5 feet PLUS THE NUMBER YOU ROLLED ON INSPIRATION DIE. So he would push him on average 8,5 feet, 9,5 feet; 10,5 feet; 11,5 feet with inspiration dice upgrades.

Also snake doesn't have to constrict target on target grid. Maybe it used only half of his body and rest is still on his grid? Maybe, as snakes do, they prone target while they constrict it (it's easier for snake to constrict horizontally than vertically), so from narrative perspective he is on target grid but he is still on his grid due to his length. Mechanic and rules are actually very viable here and there is no reason to alert them as you can easily suit narrative to them.

Forgot about the inspiration die, so yeah. I suppose it would push it outside the constrict range. Still within it's bite range though (10ft), but since grappled condition specifically says "effect that grappled" or something like that....Still, personally, I find it weird when huge creatures are pushed by medium creatures anyways. I know that it doesn't give any size category, but it's still a bit weird.

Regardless, the Bard still has to hit, and since the Constrict ability not only Grapples, but also Restrains, they're doing this at disadvantage. The Bard has to hit the creature in order to use Mobile Flourish.

So, if the Bard still hit with Disadvantage, then those are some really good rolls.

Honestly, in a case like this I'd leave it up to DM's discretion. I personally wouldn't really allow it to "move" the Behir, but would allow the Bard to somehow push THEMSELVES away from the Behir to break the grapple, but that's me.

And if someone else is grappled...well, like other people said, that person would be pushed with the creature since it only says "Away from the Bard" so it doesn't break the grapple for the others.

[MaxWilson]

And if someone else is grappled...well, like other people said, that person would be pushed with the creature since it only says "Away from the Bard" so it doesn't break the grapple for the others.

Grappling has no clause that makes other creatures move when the grappled creature is moved. All it has is this, which doesn't apply when the behir is forcibly moved:

Moving a Grappled Creature: When you move, you can drag or carry the Grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.
Therefore other creatures would be unaffected by the Mobile Flourish against the behir: they would not move, and that could potentially break the behir's grapple on them.

BTW there's another interesting interaction: mounted combat. Don't forget:

If an effect moves your mount against its will while you’re on it, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall off the mount, landing prone in a space within 5 feet of it. If you’re knocked prone while mounted, you must make the same saving throw.

Repelling Blast is fantastic in aerial mounted combat, and Mobile Flourish might be pretty good there too.

[prabe]

Grappling has no clause that makes other creatures move when the grappled creature is moved. All it has is this, which doesn't apply when the behir is forcibly moved:

Moving a Grappled Creature: When you move, you can drag or carry the Grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.
Therefore other creatures would be unaffected by the Mobile Flourish against the behir: they would not move, and that could potentially break the behir's grapple on them.

BTW there's another interesting interaction: mounted combat. Don't forget:

If an effect moves your mount against its will while you’re on it, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall off the mount, landing prone in a space within 5 feet of it. If you’re knocked prone while mounted, you must make the same saving throw.

Repelling Blast is fantastic in aerial mounted combat, and Mobile Flourish might be pretty good there too.

I don't think the grappling rules-text you've quoted is as clear as you think it is. There's no mention at all of being forcibly moved. I personally wouldn't expect it to break the grapple automatically, but adapting the rule for staying on a mount to maintain the grapple seems like a reasonable approach.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think there is something seriously wrong with the mindset "I don't want to let my players know about the rules." +1

Or a wildshaped druid in Giant Snake form. Breaks grapples by grappling the grappler (attack roll but no save, just like repelling blast and Mobile Flourish and Open Hand monks) and then moving away. that too.

I'm not too worried about it. Bards have to sacrifice quite a bit in order to be a Swords Bard, since:


Most of their spells are Concentration, especially their combat spells. Not great as a melee combatant.
A Bard attacking is a Bard not casting a spell.
Bards have a 1d8 Hit Die and Swords Bards don't get shields.
Bards have few defensive spells.


In a way, it's like a Pact of the Blade Hexblade...that doesn't do damage. It's gotta do something well. And this is a 14th level PC. They are dealing on a heroic level at the "save the world" tier of adventure. Cool and slightly over the top stuff is to be expected.

[MaxWilson]

And this is a 14th level PC. They are dealing on a heroic level at the "save the world" tier of adventure. Cool and slightly over the top stuff is to be expected.

Well, maybe. Depends on both party size and campaign style. They could be e.g. a solo PC fighting their way through a megadungeon instead. Solo PCs level very rapidly, and conversely it doesn't take very much to make a DMG-Deadly encounter for them.

[Segev]

Mobile Flourish pushes target back 5 feet PLUS THE NUMBER YOU ROLLED ON INSPIRATION DIE. So he would push him on average 8,5 feet, 9,5 feet; 10,5 feet; 11,5 feet with inspiration dice upgrades.

Also snake doesn't have to constrict target on target grid. Maybe it used only half of his body and rest is still on his grid? Maybe, as snakes do, they prone target while they constrict it (it's easier for snake to constrict horizontally than vertically), so from narrative perspective he is on target grid but he is still on his grid due to his length. Mechanic and rules are actually very viable here and there is no reason to alert them as you can easily suit narrative to them.

I understand that in theater of the mind combat, you can have non-5-ft intervals, but does anything other than jumping rules and this rule use unit feet rather than five foot breakpoints? Speed, attack reach, and ranged attack ranges all are evenly divisible by 5.

It strikes me as weird that this really amounts to, "you have a chance of pushing them 2 squares, which increases with the size of your inspiration die." Is there any way to make use of the non-divisible-by-5 number of feet?

[MaxWilson]

I understand that in theater of the mind combat, you can have non-5-ft intervals, but does anything other than jumping rules and this rule use unit feet rather than five foot breakpoints?

Well, regular movement for one thing: you don't have to spend movement in 5' increments.

Also, a dwarf getting up from a prone position spends 12.5' standing up.

And crawling over difficult terrain costs 3' of movement speed per 1' moved.


Speed, attack reach, and ranged attack ranges all are evenly divisible by 5.

It strikes me as weird that this really amounts to, "you have a chance of pushing them 2 squares, which increases with the size of your inspiration die." Is there any way to make use of the non-divisible-by-5 number of feet?

You could be in a room which is a size not divisible by five feet, e.g. 7' x 4'. That would be most rooms actually. (In real life, 3' or 4'-wide hallways are more common than 5' wide hallways.)

Also, for most practical purposes, being 1' out of an enemy's reach is as good as being 5' out of an enemy's reach.

[Segev]

Well, regular movement for one thing: you don't have to spend movement in 5' increments.

Also, a dwarf getting up from a prone position spends 12.5' standing up.



You could be in a room which is a size not divisible by five feet, e.g. 7' x 4'. That would be most rooms actually. (In real life, 3' or 4'-wide hallways are more common than 5' wide hallways.)

Also, for most practical purposes, being 1' out of an enemy's reach is as good as being 5' out of an enemy's reach.

Hm, point, so round up the distance for "effective squares moved."

[MaxWilson]

Hm, point, so round up the distance for "effective squares moved."

Also, crawling over difficult terrain costs 3' of movement speed per 1' actually moved.

[Segev]

Also, crawling over difficult terrain costs 3' of movement speed per 1' actually moved.

While true, that more easily translates back to 5-ft. squares. "it takes 15 ft. of movement to crawl through this one square."

[MaxWilson]

While true, that more easily translates back to 5-ft. squares. "it takes 15 ft. of movement to crawl through this one square."

Awkward for dwarves and halflings though: they get to crawl 8.33'.

[Segev]

Awkward for dwarves and halflings though: they get to crawl 8.33'.

True. Likely rounds down, but I could see it rounding up.

Ultimately, it hadn't come up in my game, so I hadn't thought about it before seeing a "regular-use" rule that gave unit numbers of feet. I now find myself trying to think if there's a way to accurately map that without having to get out note cards and rulers. Despite the fact that it's an artificial imposition of the five foot square grid that makes the rounding necessary, theater of the mind gets even trickier with precise units of distance down to the foot to keep track of.

[MaxWilson]

True. Likely rounds down, but I could see it rounding up.

Only if you're using a grid that forces you to round, in which case follow the grid's rules for rounding. Otherwise, it's exactly eight feet and four inches.


Despite the fact that it's an artificial imposition of the five foot square grid that makes the rounding necessary, theater of the mind gets even trickier with precise units of distance down to the foot to keep track of.

You can also just whiteboard it.

And it's rare that you actually need to be extremely precise, especially if you the DM are inclined to give the players the benefit of the doubt.

DM: [squints] Looks to me like you're right on the edge of being out of the ogre's movement plus reach. Shall we call it a 1 in 10 chance that you're close enough to be attacked this turn? [Rolls dice] Yeah, you're safe for now.

Rolling randomly is better than pulling out a ruler to judge *exactly* where the player happened to place the exact center of his marker. That's just attention to pointless accidental detail. Better to measure player *intent*, which was presumably "somewhere about here" unless he was superficially trying to stop short of the ogre's reach, as opposed to "away from the dragon" or "close enough to the wizard to guard him".

[KorvinStarmast]

You can also just whiteboard it.

And it's rare that you actually need to be extremely precise, especially if you the DM are inclined to give the players the benefit of the doubt.
Bingo. That's how I prefer it as both player and DM.