Bladesinger hard counter?

[Cantankerous80]

So ive been reading up on bladesingers in this forum, and ive seen the pros and cons of running one. I have not, however, seen anyone mention what would seem to be an obvious weakness to this subclass: Silence. Now I know that any caster using a spell with a Verbal component would be vulnerable to this, but I guess my question is this; the description of bladesong specifically states you begin singing to activate it, but does not actually have the Verbal component as a requisite. Would Silence shut down bladesong, the way Hold Person might cause a Barbarian to lose rage and have to burn another use/day to reactivate it?

[Man_Over_Game]

So ive been reading up on bladesingers in this forum, and ive seen the pros and cons of running one. I have not, however, seen anyone mention what would seem to be an obvious weakness to this subclass: Silence. Now I know that any caster using a spell with a Verbal component would be vulnerable to this, but I guess my question is this; the description of bladesong specifically states you begin singing to activate it, but does not actually have the Verbal component as a requisite. Would Silence shut down bladesong, the way Hold Person might cause a Barbarian to lose rage and have to burn another use/day to reactivate it?

It's a cool thought, but there's nothing that actually states you need to be singing in order to start the Bladesong. If anything, it only mentions maneuvers as being part of the effect, as "In combat, a bladesinger uses a series of intricate, elegant maneuvers that fend off harm and allow the bladesinger to channel magic into devastating attacks and a cunning defense."

Combine this with all of the rulings on how agile you must be to maintain it:

"Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke a secret elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren’t wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus. You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon."

It's less of a "Bladesong" and more of a "Bladedance". I'd feel more inclined to allow the Restrained condition to remove the Bladesong effect.

[saucerhead]

I think the "singing" refers to the sound of your blades cutting through the air. It would be funny though if the character was tone deaf and caterwauling the whole fight.

[Cantankerous80]

That little difference between thematic fluff and RAW.

[Cantankerous80]

I think the "singing" refers to the sound of your blades cutting through the air. It would be funny though if the character was tone deaf and caterwauling the whole fight.

I'll allow it.

[Man_Over_Game]

That little difference between thematic fluff and RAW.

The thing is, though, is that even the thematics don't mention much of singing. Only dancing and moving. The only time anything in relation to anything musical is mentioned is:


Bladesingers get proficiency in Performance. While this could technically include singing, it's more niched towards dancing and acting (since singing is ambiguous when including musical instrument tool proficiencies)
Bladesingers of the Snake style are mentioned to "Punctuate their bladesong with a stunningly rapid rhythm of whip cracks"
And the obvious title of "Bladesong"


It's a misnomer. It wasn't until I read into the subclass a little deeper (because, let's be honest, who read all that fluff more than once?) when I realized there isn't any mention of musicality or sound to the subclass. We've assumed it has to do with singing solely based on its name.

[FinnS]

I think the "singing" refers to the sound of your blades cutting through the air.
Correct.


It would be funny though if the character was tone deaf and caterwauling the whole fight.

Funny and awesome!

[JackPhoenix]

Hardest Bladesinger counter is Antimagic Field. Magic doesn't work, Bladesong doesn't work (it's also magic), good luck being in melee with that d6 hit dice and no extra defenses.

[Eldariel]

Hardest Bladesinger counter is Antimagic Field. Magic doesn't work, Bladesong doesn't work (it's also magic), good luck being in melee with that d6 hit dice and no extra defenses.

The thing is though, on the level where that can occur you're still a Wizard. So you just step back a bit, laugh and let your minions deal with the moron trying to use AMF at range (thus nuking their own magical defenses making them vulnerable to even CR ½ things). You might also dig out your racial proficiency Longbow, use your +5 Dex and Extra Attack to hit 'em while using spells to keep your distance since there's no way for someone in AMF to keep up with someone Expeditious Retreating, Phantom Steeding, Flying or whatever. The big thing about Bladesingers is that Bladesong is an addition to their magical prowess, not the main thing of the class.

Speaking of Bladesong, I always understood that the "song" was the spells they're casting and the the "blade" was the swordsfighting. So Bladesinger is someone who casts while they fight.

[JackPhoenix]

The thing is though, on the level where that can occur you're still a Wizard. So you just step back a bit, laugh and let your minions deal with the moron trying to use AMF at range (thus nuking their own magical defenses making them vulnerable to even CR ½ things). You might also dig out your racial proficiency Longbow, use your +5 Dex and Extra Attack to hit 'em while using spells to keep your distance since there's no way for someone in AMF to keep up with someone Expeditious Retreating, Phantom Steeding, Flying or whatever. The big thing about Bladesingers is that Bladesong is an addition to their magical prowess, not the main thing of the class.

Speaking of Bladesong, I always understood that the "song" was the spells they're casting and the the "blade" was the swordsfighting. So Bladesinger is someone who casts while they fight.

Wizard, meet my friend, heavily armored cleric with Sentinel. No step backs, non-undead minions can't get through AMF, undead minions were already turned into dust (and if they don't come from what the class can do, the cleric can have them too, same with undead), and plate + shield > dex (which may or may not be 20, as Int is still a priority, and even a Bladesinger would want a feat or two) + studded leather at most.

[Eldariel]

Wizard, meet my friend, heavily armored cleric with Sentinel. No step backs, non-undead minions can't get through AMF, undead minions were already turned into dust (and if they don't come from what the class can do, the cleric can have them too, same with undead), and plate + shield > dex (which may or may not be 20, as Int is still a priority, and even a Bladesinger would want a feat or two) + studded leather at most.

Requires that the Wizard lets 'em get to melee first, which is easier said than done on high levels. Arcane magic generally outperforms divine in terms of mobility. Again, a high level Bladesinger is more a spellcaster than a melee fighter; high level spells are just plain better than high level attacks, so the chances of them specifically seeking out melee so you can gotcha them are fairly low. If they are in melee, there's always the chance that they have Mobile, which in turn makes Sentinel useless. 17 AC vs. 20 AC isn't that big a difference either; given that Bladesinger has Extra Attack, they aren't actually horribly off in straight melee vs. Sword'n'Board Sentinel Cleric.

[Snowbluff]

Now I know that any caster using a spell with a Verbal component would be vulnerable to this, but I guess my question is this; the description of bladesong specifically states you begin singing to activate it, but does not actually have the Verbal component as a requisite.

I would say that the problem might be that it doesn't say you have to be able to hear it. A bladesong might be more like a mantra, in that it's the act of singing it is that helps you focus, kinda like how a martial artist might control their breathing in a fight.