Are Half-Elves any good?

[Segev]

I'm positive there are other threads on this subject, but I haven't been able to find them, so my apologies for retreading what is probably old ground.

But it strikes me that half-elves have approximately the benefits of being an elf with no subrace. I understand that, if you consider non-variant humans acceptable, the freedom to pick two whole skill proficiencies (rather than getting Perception and only Perception assigned to you) and the flexibility to add +1 to any two stats of your choice other than Cha is probably "okay," but when you compare it to any of the races with subraces, or even to Dragonborn (which is saying something), it comes off not just bland, but underwhelming.

Am I missing something? Are half-elves better than I'm giving them credit for?

Would assigning them subraces help? I was thinking something like "upbringing," with a variant for human-raised, elf-raised, and "stuck between worlds." Not 100% sure what to with each, mechanically, because the half-elf is enjoying veriability of options, which is a smidge more powerful in 5e than in earlier editions because of how it enables less overlap (and thus less wasted bonuses) when taking classes, backgrounds, etc.

But I definitely think they're under-tuned. I am, however, open to being proven wrong.

And to any pointers towards solutions others have proposed. (This isn't even for anything. It's just bugging me right now.)

[Emongnome777]

SCAG has half-elf variants, just replacing Skill Versatility with an elf subrace feature (such as Drow Magic).

I like half-elves. For me, I start with half-elf for any charisma-based caster (at least from an optimizing point of view). The total +4 to ability scores is pretty nice, as is 2 skill proficiencies. Darkvision and Fey Ancestry is just icing.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Really? I consider them the second strongest race in the game, just behind variant humans (not accounting for fliers).

Two floating skills is super useful, you're getting two floating stats AND a +2 for Cha (which is unbelievable for the many classes that use it), you've got Darkvision, you've got Fey Ancestry, you get an extra language beyond Common and Elvish. It's a strong base that works for essentially any class, though it's obviously best on anyone that wants Cha- it's so good for them that they even outdo variant humans in the role a lot of the time.

And if you can't find a use for two extra skills, there's the SCAG variants. There's your subraces.

[nickl_2000]

EDIT: Serious shadowmonking!

Half-Elves are amazing.

You get 4 stat bumps verses the normal 3. You get to choose where two of them go. And you get a lot of other goodies at the same time. Also don't forget that you get the choice of pretty much all the human racial feats and Elven Accuracy.


Also, there are variant half-elves in SCAG.
Lose:
Skill versatility

Get One of:
Keen Senses
Elf Weapon Training
Fleet of Foot
Mask of the Wild
Int Based Cantrip
Drow Magic
Swim Speed.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I don't personally see how you could reach the conclusion that they're "undertuned" as their ASI alone is a step above what's available to most other races. Top that off with the fact that they receive other useful traits (Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, Skill Versatility) and they're a decent option for every class.

I'd go so far as to say that Half Elves are better generalists than Human (assuming Standard and not Variant) and then when you include the Variant Elves that can borrow the unique traits of their Elven half, they probably well outshine them too.

As far as Charisma classes are concerned, Half Elf is definitely the best option from PHB and likely the best charisma option overall supposing that Yuan-Ti is off the table. If the only thing outshining you is Yuan-Ti you're doing something well.

In fact, when I first started looking into 5E to play I was exposed to a lot of talk about how Half Elves were too much of an outlier in strength, with suggestions to tone them down rather than bring them up.

[MrStabby]

I'm positive there are other threads on this subject, but I haven't been able to find them, so my apologies for retreading what is probably old ground.

But it strikes me that half-elves have approximately the benefits of being an elf with no subrace. I understand that, if you consider non-variant humans acceptable, the freedom to pick two whole skill proficiencies (rather than getting Perception and only Perception assigned to you) and the flexibility to add +1 to any two stats of your choice other than Cha is probably "okay," but when you compare it to any of the races with subraces, or even to Dragonborn (which is saying something), it comes off not just bland, but underwhelming.

Am I missing something? Are half-elves better than I'm giving them credit for?

Would assigning them subraces help? I was thinking something like "upbringing," with a variant for human-raised, elf-raised, and "stuck between worlds." Not 100% sure what to with each, mechanically, because the half-elf is enjoying veriability of options, which is a smidge more powerful in 5e than in earlier editions because of how it enables less overlap (and thus less wasted bonuses) when taking classes, backgrounds, etc.

But I definitely think they're under-tuned. I am, however, open to being proven wrong.

And to any pointers towards solutions others have proposed. (This isn't even for anything. It's just bugging me right now.)

Half elves are superb.

Firstly +2 to cha works for bard, paladin, sorcerer warlock and swashbuckler. This means it isn't niche.

Two floating skill points are really good as well. Most casters like good dex, con and their casting stat. If one of these leaves an odd numbered value then a half feat will round it out. Resilient being a common example.

The race avoids common disadvantages - not small sized, not slower speed, you have darkvision.

Round it out with extra skills.


I think it is exceptionally powerful, if a little bland.

[Damon_Tor]

They are easily one of the best races available.

They are consistently top-tier in any cha class (and there are a ton of cha classes) and high tier for virtually any other class, even ones that don't use Cha at all, if only because they always have two stats right where you need them.

One thing that people often overlook about half-elves is that they qualify for Elvis Accuracy, which is a critical feat for crit-fishing builds.

[Damon_Tor]

Elvis Accuracy

You know, I'm just going to accept that the auto-correct was right this time, though that's probably a better feat for Bards than anyone else.

[Segev]

Hm. The SCAG variants do seem like they might nudge it upwards.

Though, why on earth would you trade two open skill picks for Keen Senses, which is just one fixed skill pick (perception)?

Maybe I'm really undervaluing two floating +1s. (I don't count the +2 Cha as anything but keeping parity with elven +2 Dex.)

Variant Human is actually very strong mainly because of the free feat. Getting a feat at level 1 is a huge boon over any other race, and feats in 5e are generally much stronger than in prior editions. Magic Initiate is flat-out better than most racial magic traits (not all, but most), giving 2 cantrips and any 1st level spell of your choice.

Picking up a swim speed in place of two skill proficiencies is...nice, at least if it comes with water-breathing (otherwise it's a bit meh). But how does a half-sea-elf compare to a sea elf?

+2 Cha vs. +2 Dex (wash)
+1 to two stats of choice vs. +1 constitution (con's a good stat for any class, but that still leaves advantage to half-sea-elf)
Darkvision on both.
Immune to magical sleep and charm on both.
Normal sleep vs. trancing (advantage to the sea elf, not huge, but present)
Keen senses only for the sea elf (perception proficiency)
Both have a swim speed (does this come with water breathing for the half-sea-elf? If not, advantage to the full sea elf)
Sea Elf gets to talk to sea creatures.
Sea Elf has racial weapon training.

So the balance, here, is that the half-sea-elf has about 1.5 more stat points (I'll count being able to pick vs. fixed on Con as half a point), vs. the sea elf getting to talk to sea creatures, weapon proficiencies, perception proficiency, and trancing. This is assuming the half-sea-elf swim speed comes with water breathing; if it doesn't, then that's a huge perk for the sea elf.

Is 1.5 stat points worth all of that?

[LudicSavant]

I'm positive there are other threads on this subject, but I haven't been able to find them, so my apologies for retreading what is probably old ground.

But it strikes me that half-elves have approximately the benefits of being an elf with no subrace.

I'd characterize it more like being an Elf with the subrace "+1 stat, +1 skill, -trance" And also they don't need to be tied to Dex, and can start 17 Cha and bump it to 18 with Elven Accuracy.

There's also the SCAG variants, which can sorta be considered like Half-Elf subraces. They're useful for grabbing things like, say, the High Elf's cantrip without being Int-based.

[Segev]

They're more like an Elf with the subrace "+1 stat, +1 skill." And also they don't need to be tied to Dex, and can start 17 Cha and bump it to 18 with Elven Accuracy.

There's also the SCAG variants, which can sorta be considered like Half-Elf subraces.

That's an interesting way to look at it. I wonder if it would have worked better to make humans have three sub-races: Variant Human, Half-Elf, and Half-Orc. Human base would be +1 to two stats, and all the other stuff on the standard human. Subraces would give a bonus feat and two skills (full human), +2 Cha and the half-elf elven traits, and... er, no. Half-orc is actually pretyt darned good at what it does, so making it a sub-race of human would be tricky to balance.

(Is it weird that I think half-orc is flat-out more powerful than full orc, as printed in Volo's Guide? The damage-halt-at-1-hp and the bonus die of damage on crits seems much better than Powerful Build and Aggressive, to me. And it's also weird that orcs get a stat penalty but the same number of features, and there's so little overlap between orcs and half-orcs. It really does feel like half-orcs, despite being supposedly half human, come off as their own full race.)

[LudicSavant]

(Is it weird that I think half-orc is flat-out more powerful than full orc, as printed in Volo's Guide? The damage-halt-at-1-hp and the bonus die of damage on crits seems much better than Powerful Build and Aggressive, to me. And it's also weird that orcs get a stat penalty but the same number of features, and there's so little overlap between orcs and half-orcs. It really does feel like half-orcs, despite being supposedly half human, come off as their own full race.)

I consider the Volo's orc an atrocity. A gut punch to anyone who bought the book because they wanted to play a full-blooded orc.

At least they buffed it for Eberron. New version has no stat penalty, +2 skills, and is otherwise the same.

[Segev]

I consider the Volo's orc an atrocity. A gut punch to anyone who bought the book because they wanted to play a full-blooded orc.

At least they buffed it for Eberron. New version has no stat penalty, +2 skills, and is otherwise the same.

+2 fixed skills, or more like half-elf Skill Versatility where they get to pick? Because that almost sounds more "half-human" than the half-orc gets, if the latter.


But on the half-elf... is +1.5 stat points worth as much as the things a sea elf has over a half-sea-elf?

[DarknessEternal]

Really? I consider them the second strongest race in the game, just behind variant humans

Everything this guy said. If anything, they are too strong.

[Segev]

Everything this guy said. If anything, they are too strong.

...can you give any examples? I'm having a hard time seeing it.

Part of what I'm looking at is synnergy with the rest of the build. So apples to apples is tricky, because a half-orc bard is obviously not as good as a half-elf bard (though any use of shilelagh or melee weapons from Valor or Swords College goes nicely with the half-orc's abilty to take hits and dish out crit damage), but a half-orc barbarian is pretty obviously better than a half-elf barbarian.

Are half-elves the only ones with +2 Cha? That would go a long way to at least saying they have the advantage as cha-based casters. (I forget if anybody else has that. Halflings, maybe? Tieflings?)

A Vuman has a bonus feat, which means he can synnergize that with just about anything.

You can certainly play any class with any other, and some weird combinations work out surprisingly well. (A Mountain Dwarf Wizard can cast in medium armor without needing feats or multiclassing, and can wield a respectable melee weapon, too, potentially disguising his wizard-ness quite effectively.)

Is there anything a half-elf is the BEST race for, rather than just a decent choice? Or at least directly competitive for "best?" (This isn't a requirement for them to be "good," mind; I'm just feeling things out. Dwarves probably aren't the BEST race for anything, despite being, in my mind, more interesting and competitive than half-elves look.)



What makes them "almost too strong?" Is it just the floating two +1s? Wouldn't that make non-variant human even more ridiculously strong, with its +1 to everything? (I haven't seen anybody say they'd play a non-variant human over a Vuman, nor comment that they're too strong.)

[sithlordnergal]

+2 fixed skills, or more like half-elf Skill Versatility where they get to pick? Because that almost sounds more "half-human" than the half-orc gets, if the latter.


But on the half-elf... is +1.5 stat points worth as much as the things a sea elf has over a half-sea-elf?

I would say it does. The Half-Elf's strength is versatility. A Half-Elf can excel in any environment or campaign, and their racial features aren't limited by the environment. Don't get me wrong, the Sea Elf's racial traits are powerful, but they're also limited. For example:

Lets say I have two campaigns. One takes place in a desert with little to no water, and obtaining water is a huge issue. The other takes place on a ship in the ocean. The Half-Elf can excel in both campaigns, and will be able to make a lot of use of all of their racial traits no matter if they're in the desert or on a ship.

On the other hand the Sea Elf is going to excel in the Ocean campaign, and will likely make great use of their swim speed and such, but may never use any of their special racial traits in the desert one simply because there's never enough water.

[Sigreid]

My group rolls for stats and honestly there's half the time or more that half elf is clearly your best option. Dark vision, 2 skills, charm resistance, sleep immunity, a +2 to cha that I usually use to mitigate my worst roll and 2 +1 to round out odd stats. Pretty sweet. I don't get the elf weapon proficiency, but if I'm going to use weapons I'll be taking a class that does that.

[Lyracian]

I'm positive there are other threads on this subject, but I haven't been able to find them, so my apologies for retreading what is probably old ground.
Am I missing something? Are half-elves better than I'm giving them credit for?

I think I have only seen other topics with people complaining they are too powerful! For me they are a top pick race and my first choice for most characters.

It does depend at what tier of play most of your game will be at but for any class that would take +CHR as an ASI I prefer the Half-Elf to Variant Human.
At Level 5 the Human has a Feat and an ASI (+2 Chr in this example) the Half-Elf has +2 Chr and an ASI = Feat.
They both get a language and skill but the Half-Elf gets a extra Skill, Language: Elven, Darkvision and Fey Ancestry.

If using point buy on a none Charisma character the +2 Chr allows me to spend two extra build points to push a 14 to 15 thus mimicking another races +2.
Providing of course I am happy with having at least a 10 Chr and did not want a 17 with that racial +2.

[Man_Over_Game]

One thing that's important to factor is that Charisma is:

Probably the most important attribute, in terms of skills usage.
Probably the most important attribute, in terms of caster stats.

Other options for Charisma are Dragonborn and Tieflings, which aren't popular picks.

But mostly, it gives you 2 skills (multiclassing into Rogue gives you barely more than that as the Skill-heaviest class), and it gives you all the passive benefits of being an Elf.

You do exactly what you want, and you do it better. Compare this to some of the Dwarf core and subrace features, and you're almost guaranteed to get 1-2 things you don't actually care about.

[ChildofLuthic]

Is there anything a half-elf is the BEST race for, rather than just a decent choice? Or at least directly competitive for "best?"

Honestly, I love Half-Elf for a paladin. You can start with a 16 in Strength, Constitution and Charisma. This is really great, considering how MAD paladin is. They're good charisma casters as well.

[Waterdeep Merch]

...can you give any examples? I'm having a hard time seeing it.

Part of what I'm looking at is synnergy with the rest of the build. So apples to apples is tricky, because a half-orc bard is obviously not as good as a half-elf bard (though any use of shilelagh or melee weapons from Valor or Swords College goes nicely with the half-orc's abilty to take hits and dish out crit damage), but a half-orc barbarian is pretty obviously better than a half-elf barbarian.

Are half-elves the only ones with +2 Cha? That would go a long way to at least saying they have the advantage as cha-based casters. (I forget if anybody else has that. Halflings, maybe? Tieflings?)

A Vuman has a bonus feat, which means he can synnergize that with just about anything.

You can certainly play any class with any other, and some weird combinations work out surprisingly well. (A Mountain Dwarf Wizard can cast in medium armor without needing feats or multiclassing, and can wield a respectable melee weapon, too, potentially disguising his wizard-ness quite effectively.)

Is there anything a half-elf is the BEST race for, rather than just a decent choice? Or at least directly competitive for "best?" (This isn't a requirement for them to be "good," mind; I'm just feeling things out. Dwarves probably aren't the BEST race for anything, despite being, in my mind, more interesting and competitive than half-elves look.)



What makes them "almost too strong?" Is it just the floating two +1s? Wouldn't that make non-variant human even more ridiculously strong, with its +1 to everything? (I haven't seen anybody say they'd play a non-variant human over a Vuman, nor comment that they're too strong.)

Aasimar, Changeling, Tiefling, and Yuan-Ti Pureblood all have +2 Cha as well. Each of those gets a +1 in something as well, but they've got limitations on what that is (except for the Yuan-Ti, which is stuck with Int). Between the two, the Tiefling and Aasimar's big ticket toys are extra spells and spell-like effects (Aasimar aura) alongside some nifty resistances. You could make a serious argument that a Yuan-Ti's magic resistance is good enough to overcome the otherwise lackluster stats, and I'd agree.

The Tiefling and Aasimar's spellcasting can be mirrored by being half-drow, so you're (sort of) comparing +1 stat (any), +2 skills, charm advantage, sleep immunity, and an extra language versus an energy resistance (or two with the aasimar, though one is extremely rare). The Changeling is going to be better if you like infiltration and worse at everything else, you'll know why you wanted it when you picked it, nothing else can replace it.

The Yuan-Ti Pureblood has magic resistance, poison immunity, and a few good spells; hoo boy is it good, but in a different way. For pure combat purposes it's definitely superior, it gets two neat weird languages which can come in handy, and Suggestion/Animal Friendship are great for social encounters.

Technically, a Variant Human can also have +2 Cha. But that means taking Actor or Resilient: Charisma (a waste for Bards, Paladins, Sorcerers, and Warlocks). So really, it means taking Actor. A better feat than a lot of people give it credit for, I think, but only worth it if you're pursuing a master of disguise gameplay style. That's not really why you'd take a V-Human, though. You want something like GWM, WC, or SS, maybe RC or MI. Or Resilient: Constitution. If one of those are critical to your build pre-4, a V-Human is your best choice, no argument there.

If not, though, and you don't need/want a specific trick from the other major Cha races (namely Changeling or a Yuan-Ti's magic resistance), a Half-Elf allows for virtually any build thanks to the extra +1's, and can get useful skills you'd have trouble getting other ways (or some extra casting, since those really are the best picks for SCAG variants here, in my mind). There's also Darkvision over it, advantage against charm, immunity to sleep for the early game (you can stand in the middle of a sleep spell, which makes it easier to aim for the levels when that's viable), and both a common extra language and another floating to better socialize. It's like a 'full package' kit to give you useful tricks for all three pillars of gameplay that all appreciate in value as you gain levels (sleep immunity besides).

[Segev]

My group rolls for stats and honestly there's half the time or more that half elf is clearly your best option. Dark vision, 2 skills, charm resistance, sleep immunity, a +2 to cha that I usually use to mitigate my worst roll and 2 +1 to round out odd stats. Pretty sweet. I don't get the elf weapon proficiency, but if I'm going to use weapons I'll be taking a class that does that.I like to roll for stats, too. Using the +2 Cha to mitigate a bad roll grinds against everything in my wicked little optimizer's heart; I want my +2s to be pushing me above 18 if possible. But I do see where you're coming from, because a starting 20 is both unlikely and probably not that important.

I still compare the darkvision, charm resistance, and sleep immunity with a +2 to Cha to a Vuman's feat (because the 2 skills are a wash), and consider that "a feat" can be 2 cantrips and a 1st level spell, or some really unique features that others can't get until level 4 at the earliest, and am not sure they're all that great.

I think I have only seen other topics with people complaining they are too powerful! For me they are a top pick race and my first choice for most characters.

It does depend at what tier of play most of your game will be at but for any class that would take +CHR as an ASI I prefer the Half-Elf to Variant Human.
At Level 5 the Human has a Feat and an ASI (+2 Chr in this example) the Half-Elf has +2 Chr and an ASI = Feat.
They both get a language and skill but the Half-Elf gets a extra Skill, Language: Elven, Darkvision and Fey Ancestry.

If using point buy on a none Charisma character the +2 Chr allows me to spend two extra build points to push a 14 to 15 thus mimicking another races +2.
Providing of course I am happy with having at least a 10 Chr and did not want a 17 with that racial +2.
I do see what you mean, here. By level 5, the difference might be a little bit of a wash, and the half-elf's traits that a human would need a number of tricks to replace are valid considerations. Though consider that a Vuman could have 2 feats, rather than an ASI+feat or 2 ASIs. I think we're still looking at a build-specific trade-off, and given the impressiveness of feats, I still lean towards the human.

(The full elf is harder to measure, but I think I did okay with the half-sea-elf vs. the full sea elf.)


I would say it does. The Half-Elf's strength is versatility. A Half-Elf can excel in any environment or campaign, and their racial features aren't limited by the environment. Don't get me wrong, the Sea Elf's racial traits are powerful, but they're also limited. For example:

Lets say I have two campaigns. One takes place in a desert with little to no water, and obtaining water is a huge issue. The other takes place on a ship in the ocean. The Half-Elf can excel in both campaigns, and will be able to make a lot of use of all of their racial traits no matter if they're in the desert or on a ship.

On the other hand the Sea Elf is going to excel in the Ocean campaign, and will likely make great use of their swim speed and such, but may never use any of their special racial traits in the desert one simply because there's never enough water.
You're making a fairly common mistake when measuring versatility.

Versatility IS a power all its own, but unless you're carefully exercising it to mitigate opportunity costs and overlaps, it's no longer an advantage once the choices are made. You compare a generic half-elf, with all the options for how to build it, to a sea elf in these two campaign settings. A fairer comparison is the half-sea-elf to the sea elf in both campaign settings.

You still will have the half-sea-elf come out a bit ahead in the desert setting, because the extra stat boost definitely outstrips the ability to speak with creatures that won't show up. But even then, does that outstrip the ability to get free weapon proficiencies AND to have Perception proficiency?

You might say, "well, just don't take the swim speed alternate feature," but then you're ignoring that choosing "sea elf" at all was a choice as much as choosing which variant on half elf you're taking.


I still believe you might have a way to demonstrate your claim that they're too strong, and all I'm doing here is trying to demonstrate why this kind of "versatility" argument doesn't work. Something isn't too strong just because you can make it competitive in any environment; it has to actually outshine options that you'd reasonably choose for that environment to be "too strong."

This is why comparing the half-sea-elf and the sea elf in an ocean-going campaign is fair; you could reasonably choose a sea elf as your race, and you could reasonably choose a half-elf as your race. Half sea-elf gets the strongest advantage of being a sea elf over other elves in this campaign setting (assuming they can breathe water as well as get a swim speed), so it's a very fair comparison.

Once the half-sea-elf assigns his floating stats, is he stronger than the sea elf in the ocean-going campaign? Is he "merely" on par? Or is he weaker?



In my ToA game, I have a wood elf wizard whose player doesn't really use the hiding feature very well, despite the constant woods. He does enjoy the +5 movement. If he played a half-elf wizard, would he be stronger? With or without taking the "wood elf" variant feature for half-elves?

[Sigreid]

I like to roll for stats, too. Using the +2 Cha to mitigate a bad roll grinds against everything in my wicked little optimizer's heart; I want my +2s to be pushing me above 18 if possible. But I do see where you're coming from, because a starting 20 is both unlikely and probably not that important.



Depends on what your rolls are. With my current character, the +2 could get me to a 17, or it could keep my 6 from hurting quite so bad by making it an 8.

[Man_Over_Game]

In my ToA game, I have a wood elf wizard whose player doesn't really use the hiding feature very well, despite the constant woods. He does enjoy the +5 movement. If he played a half-elf wizard, would he be stronger? With or without taking the "wood elf" variant feature for half-elves?

Maybe? Depends on how relevant the additional 2 skills and attributes would matter.

I guess it mostly just boils down to how important picking your own stats and +2 skills are. Some players like skills, others don't. I personally think that skills have synergy with magic, since a problem solved with a skill means more slots you can spend doing other things.

[nickl_2000]

Depends on what your rolls are. With my current character, the +2 could get me to a 17, or it could keep my 6 from hurting quite so bad by making it an 8.

Really? One of my more fun characters to RP had a 6 charisma due to a horrible roll

[sithlordnergal]

...can you give any examples? I'm having a hard time seeing it.

Part of what I'm looking at is synnergy with the rest of the build. So apples to apples is tricky, because a half-orc bard is obviously not as good as a half-elf bard (though any use of shilelagh or melee weapons from Valor or Swords College goes nicely with the half-orc's abilty to take hits and dish out crit damage), but a half-orc barbarian is pretty obviously better than a half-elf barbarian.


I dunno if that is entirely true actually. I can make a Half-Elf Barbarian that has a 16/14/16/8/10/10 spread for ability scores using a 27 point buy, and I can make a Half-Orc Barbarian with a 16/14/16/8/12/8, or 16/14/16/8/10/10, spread using a 27 point buy. I will admit, the Half-Orcs ability to stay up when you reach 0 hp is nice for a barbarian, as is Savage Attack, but are those truly stronger than Immunity to Sleep, Advantage against charms, and either 2 skill proficencies or one of the traits from the variant half elf?

Again, I readily admit that Relentless Endurance is really good on a Barbarian...but at the same time the Half-Elf is easily comparable to it. One just has the ability to stay up for an extra hit, while the other is more useful outside of combat.



Are half-elves the only ones with +2 Cha? That would go a long way to at least saying they have the advantage as cha-based casters. (I forget if anybody else has that. Halflings, maybe? Tieflings?)

A Vuman has a bonus feat, which means he can synnergize that with just about anything.

You can certainly play any class with any other, and some weird combinations work out surprisingly well. (A Mountain Dwarf Wizard can cast in medium armor without needing feats or multiclassing, and can wield a respectable melee weapon, too, potentially disguising his wizard-ness quite effectively.)


Tieflings, Half-Elves, Yuan-Ti, Changlings, and Aasimar all have a +2 to Charisma. However, I would say Half-Elves are the most versatile of that group. They are much weaker then Yuan-Ti, and I feel that Aasimar are somewhat stronger then Half-Elves...but Half-Elves blow Tieflings out of the water. Meaning the only races that give a +2 to Charisma that are better than the Half-Elf are the Yuan-Ti, which everyone can agree are broken, and the Aasimar, which are close to, but not quite, as powerful as Yuan-Ti.

And even then, I often choose Half-Elf over the others because, like the V-Human, they synergize well with almost any class. As shown above, I can make a Half-Elf Barbarian and have the same stats as a Half-Orc Barbarian. The same goes with any other class. Heck, I have an AL Legal Paladin 8/Sorcerer 1/Druid 11 with really decent stats from start to finish, and the only reason I could pull that off was because of the Half-Elf. The only other race I could have pulled that off with, and still been as strong as it now, would have been the non-Variant Human.



Is there anything a half-elf is the BEST race for, rather than just a decent choice? Or at least directly competitive for "best?" (This isn't a requirement for them to be "good," mind; I'm just feeling things out. Dwarves probably aren't the BEST race for anything, despite being, in my mind, more interesting and competitive than half-elves look.)

What makes them "almost too strong?" Is it just the floating two +1s? Wouldn't that make non-variant human even more ridiculously strong, with its +1 to everything? (I haven't seen anybody say they'd play a non-variant human over a Vuman, nor comment that they're too strong.)


Yes, any build that wants to be a skill monkey, or any build that makes use of Charisma as a primary stat. The Half-Elf tends to be the very best choice for those more often than not:

On the Skill Monkey side, a Half-Elf Rogue starts with 8 skill proficencies, 4 from Rogue, 2 from their Race, and 2 from their Background. A Half-Elf Bard starts with 7 skills, all of their choice, and if they go Lore Bard they end up with 10 skill proficencies. And ALL of those skills are skills of their choice, there is no limitation on what they can choose like there is with every other class. I can't think of any other way you can get 10 skill proficencies without the use of Feats.

As for the Charisma caster, due to the +2 Charisma and +1 in two ability scores, they can fit in any role. Wanna make a Paladin? Half-Elf and Scourge Aasimar can net you +2 in Charisma and +1 in Strength, giving you bonuses in your primary ability scores. Now you have to choose, are the racial bonuses of the Scourge Aasimar better than the +1 to any ability score you like, +2 skills, Advantage vs Charm, Immunity to sleep, and an extra language of your choice? And an even better question, will your DM allow you to play a Scourge Aasimar? They're pretty on par with Yuan-Ti when it comes to being OP after all.

How about a Bard? No race is better at being a Bard than a Half-Elf. Bards are literally magical skill monkies, and as I mentioned above, a Half-Elf Lore Bard gets to have 10 skills of their choice by level 3, and half their proficiency modifier in the remaining 8 skills. Even if you don't go Lore Bard, you're still rocking 7 skills of your choice. That's one skill less than a Rogue...and that isn't even counting Spellcasting.

Sorcerer and Warlock? Thematically, the Tiefling does well here. Ability wise, not so much. The Tiefling gets +2 to Charisma, and +1 to Int. The Half-Elf can get +2 to Charisma, +1 to Con, and +1 to Dex. I will admit, fire resistance is nice...but its not nearly good enough to be compared with the Half-Elf's multitude of abilities. And please note, we haven't even touched on the Varient Half-Elves, which give up the skills in exchange for things like a Swim Speed, or Drow Magic, or starting with a High Elf cantrip, ect.

Literally, the ONLY race I can think of that does definitively better at all of those above examples is the Yuan-Ti...but keep in mind that is because the Yuan-Ti is immune to point, has advantage against all magical effects, starts out with Poison Spray and an unlimited Animal Friendship vs Snakes, can cast Suggestion 1/Long Rest at level 3, has Darkvision, and has 3 languages.

It should also be noted, that both the Yuan-Ti and Scourge Paladin are in Volo's Guide to Monsters, which some tables might ban, and for AL players requires you to use your +1 on it instead of using Xanathar's. So while technically there are four races with a +2 to Charisma, you'll generally only be able to choose between Tiefling and Half-Elf.


EDIT: Also, the reason why Half-Elves are considered stronger then Non-Variant Humans is simple. A standard, non-VA Human gains +1 to every ability score, +1 Language of your choice...and nothing else. No skill proficencies, no special racial things, nothing. And outside of really MAD builds, a +1 to everything is worth a lot less than +2 to a key ability score with a pair of floating +1's.

Half-Elves get +2 to Charisma, +1 to any two abilities they like, Darkvision, Fey Ancestry, Skill Versatility, and an extra Language. They're more on par with the Variant Human, which gets +1 to any two stats they like and a Feast...and even then you might wanna go Half-Elf because you get more ability score buffs and the other stuff.

[Segev]

Maybe? Depends on how relevant the additional 2 skills and attributes would matter.

I guess it mostly just boils down to how important picking your own stats and +2 skills are. Some players like skills, others don't. I personally think that skills have synergy with magic, since a problem solved with a skill means more slots you can spend doing other things.

Variant human also gets +2 skills. I will say the sleep immunity has come up as valuable, though, so there's that. (Night hags are nasty.)

Picking your own stats apparently isn't that big of a deal for this character, since wood elves don't do anything for wizards, stat-wise. (Well, beyond the general advantage of dex-to-AC.)

I'll try to put together a side-by-side for every possible half-elf and "equivalent" elf, and see if the delta really is equivalent. Right now, the sea elf shows a delta of 1.5 stats (using an admittedly-arbitrary "choosing it rather than having it fixed is worth .5" conversion) is balancing weapon proficiencies, Perception training, trance (instead of sleep), and an ability to talk to sea creatures.

The 1.5 will always be the half-elf's counterbalance to whatever the subraces give, minus whatever he gets from the sub-race in return for his 2 skill proficiencies.

[Sigreid]

Really? One of my more fun characters to RP had a 6 charisma due to a horrible roll

This time, yes. Because it wasn't going to push a stat I cared about into another + either way. I've played characters with a stat as low as 4, and one of my favorites of all time 12 was his highest stat.

[sithlordnergal]

Variant human also gets +2 skills. I will say the sleep immunity has come up as valuable, though, so there's that. (Night hags are nasty.)

Picking your own stats apparently isn't that big of a deal for this character, since wood elves don't do anything for wizards, stat-wise. (Well, beyond the general advantage of dex-to-AC.)

I'll try to put together a side-by-side for every possible half-elf and "equivalent" elf, and see if the delta really is equivalent. Right now, the sea elf shows a delta of 1.5 stats (using an admittedly-arbitrary "choosing it rather than having it fixed is worth .5" conversion) is balancing weapon proficiencies, Perception training, trance (instead of sleep), and an ability to talk to sea creatures.

The 1.5 will always be the half-elf's counterbalance to whatever the subraces give, minus whatever he gets from the sub-race in return for his 2 skill proficiencies.

Small correction, VA-Humans only get one extra skill, not two.

[Zetakya]

Is there anything a half-elf is the BEST race for, rather than just a decent choice? Or at least directly competitive for "best?"
I'd say Swashbuckler Rogue and Swords Bard were the two (sub)classes they really can own.


Dwarves probably aren't the BEST race for anything, despite being, in my mind, more interesting and competitive than half-elves look.
This isn't the thread for it, but Dwarves are surprisingly flexible as a race.

[Cantankerous80]

Half elves are superb.

Firstly +2 to cha works for bard, paladin, sorcerer warlock and swashbuckler. This means it isn't niche.

This right here. My first Character was a Half Elf Vengeance Paladin. Outside of Variant Human they make great starter race characters as you get all the goodies...except Elf racism, gotta watch for that.

[2D8HP]

"..Is there anything a half-elf is the BEST race for, rather than just a decent choice?..."


My top two choices: Paladin and Swashbuckler Rogue, and frankly, while very fun for me to role-play, Paladins are just too complicated mechanically for my taste, so Swashbuckler is the answer, and Swashbuckling is AWESOME! and you should play one, RIGHT NOW!, my favorite 5e PC was a multiclass Fighter (Champion)/Rogue (Swashbuckler) half-Elf, and was great to play!


Half elves are superb.

Firstly +2 to cha works for bard, paladin, sorcerer warlock and swashbuckler. This means it isn't niche.

Two floating skill points are really good as well. Most casters like good dex, con and their casting stat. If one of these leaves an odd numbered value then a half feat will round it out. Resilient being a common example.

The race avoids common disadvantages - not small sized, not slower speed, you have darkvision.

Round it out with extra skills.


I think it is exceptionally powerful, if a little bland.


+1 This, except for "a little bland".

[Dork_Forge]

The strength of Half Elves lies in the stats mainly, if you roll for stats and roll one high and the rest decent then HElf becomes less appealing unless you want one of the variants or are planning to take EA or Prodigy. I'd still rate it one of the most pwoerful races just because of the versatility with no downsides.

[JumboWheat01]

This isn't the thread for it, but Dwarves are surprisingly flexible as a race.

It's hard to be flexible when you're that short and stout, if you ask me.


As other have said, half-elves are particularly great for their shear versatility, they can fit into any class just fine, double so for charisma classes, have the skills to help make a character plan, sleep immunity, charm resistance and darkvision. Really, compared to their 3e-selves, 5e half-elves are extremely powerful. And then there're the SCAG variants to have even more adjustable versatility. Can you go better than a half-elf with some classes? Sure. But you also could never go wrong.

[sithlordnergal]

You're making a fairly common mistake when measuring versatility.

Versatility IS a power all its own, but unless you're carefully exercising it to mitigate opportunity costs and overlaps, it's no longer an advantage once the choices are made. You compare a generic half-elf, with all the options for how to build it, to a sea elf in these two campaign settings. A fairer comparison is the half-sea-elf to the sea elf in both campaign settings.

You still will have the half-sea-elf come out a bit ahead in the desert setting, because the extra stat boost definitely outstrips the ability to speak with creatures that won't show up. But even then, does that outstrip the ability to get free weapon proficiencies AND to have Perception proficiency?

You might say, "well, just don't take the swim speed alternate feature," but then you're ignoring that choosing "sea elf" at all was a choice as much as choosing which variant on half elf you're taking.


Well that's the thing, I was comparing the Sea-Elf and Half-Elf in both campaigns. One where the Sea-Elf had the clear advantage and one where it didn't. If you just compare both races in a setting where one has a clear advantage, then you only get half of your relevant information. You even showed yourself how a Half-Ef Variant can do just as well as a Sea-Elf in a sea fairing campaign.

As for free weapon proficencies, and perception...I'd say the Half-Elf's skills are better than those. The Sea-Elf gains proficiency with the Spear, Trident, Light Crossbow, and Net. Two of those weapons are Simple Weapons, and all classes are automatically proficient with them. The Trident is no different from the Spear, outside of costing more, and the Net is a decent weapon but not one that is game changing. As for Perception Proficiency, the Half-Elf can have that and an extra skill.

EDIT: Also, I don't think the Sea-Elf would come out ahead in a desert setting. They gain a +1 to Con and a +2 to Dex. A Half-Elf can easily get the same exact ability score distribution as a Sea-Elf while also making more use of their special racial ablities then the Sea-Elf would.

Also, let me put it this way on how versatile the Half-Elf is. I just looked at every single Class Guide on RPGBot. The ONLY class that Half-Elf was marked Red for was Monk. The only two classes it was marked Orange for were Druid and Ranger. Outside of that, the Half-Elf was Marked Green or or Blue. For those who don't know, though I'm not sure how you wouldn't know this, Red means it is the worst option, Orange means its ok at doing this, Green means its a perfectly fine option, and Blue means it is the best.

So unless you are making a Monk, which is a MAD class that requires you to have Dex, Con, and Wisdom to excel, you literally cannot go wrong with a Half Elf.

[Dork_Forge]

Well that's the thing, I was comparing the Sea-Elf and Half-Elf in both campaigns. One where the Sea-Elf had the clear advantage and one where it didn't. If you just compare both races in a setting where one has a clear advantage, then you only get half of your relevant information. You even showed yourself how a Half-Ef Variant can do just as well as a Sea-Elf in a sea fairing campaign.

As for free weapon proficencies, and perception...I'd say the Half-Elf's skills are better than those. The Sea-Elf gains proficiency with the Spear, Trident, Light Crossbow, and Net. Two of those weapons are Simple Weapons, and all classes are automatically proficient with them. The Trident is no different from the Spear, outside of costing more, and the Net is a decent weapon but not one that is game changing. As for Perception Proficiency, the Half-Elf can have that and an extra skill.

EDIT: Also, I don't think the Sea-Elf would come out ahead in a desert setting. They gain a +1 to Con and a +2 to Dex. A Half-Elf can easily get the same exact ability score distribution as a Sea-Elf while also making more use of their special racial ablities then the Sea-Elf would.

Small note, you don't automatically get Simple Weapon prof, Wizards and Sorcerers both get limited selections.

[Theaitetos]

...can you give any examples? I'm having a hard time seeing it.

Part of what I'm looking at is synnergy with the rest of the build. So apples to apples is tricky, because a half-orc bard is obviously not as good as a half-elf bard (though any use of shilelagh or melee weapons from Valor or Swords College goes nicely with the half-orc's abilty to take hits and dish out crit damage), but a half-orc barbarian is pretty obviously better than a half-elf barbarian.

Are half-elves the only ones with +2 Cha? That would go a long way to at least saying they have the advantage as cha-based casters. (I forget if anybody else has that. Halflings, maybe? Tieflings?)

The versatility is op compared to any other race.

Whatever you need for your build, the half-elf gives you options to get it with subraces and stats. Your monk lacks weapon proficiencies? Take Elf Weapon Training (bows, swords)! You want to move as fast as possible? Take Fleet of Foot. You want to hide when only lightly obscured? Take Mask of the Wild. Need Darkness or Faerie Fire? Take Drow Magic. Or need a wizard cantrip? Take High Elven heritage.

Are you sure there aren't barbarians, who prefer more battlefield control or thematic skills (e.g. Booming Blade, Shape Water) during Rage downtimes/out-of-combat? Especially martial classes, who could easily concentrate on a spell while fighting, can make use of a half-drow's Faerie Fire, disable enemy archers with Darkness, or close the gap with increased movement speed. A rogue, who can easily hide in a little mist or cast Minor Illusion, and Elven Accuracy for sneak attacks is definitely very happy, just like a DEX-based fighter.

And you always have +1 in your two most important skills. Eberron's half-elves have also very nice Mark features (Detection & Storm). And who knows what's in store once Avariel become available? :smallbiggrin:

[nickl_2000]

Small note, you don't automatically get Simple Weapon prof, Wizards and Sorcerers both get limited selections.

Monks and Druid as well.

[Willie the Duck]

I like to roll for stats, too. Using the +2 Cha to mitigate a bad roll grinds against everything in my wicked little optimizer's heart; I want my +2s to be pushing me above 18 if possible. But I do see where you're coming from, because a starting 20 is both unlikely and probably not that important.

I still compare the darkvision, charm resistance, and sleep immunity with a +2 to Cha to a Vuman's feat

If you don't consider starting at 20 important, you probably want to boost your primary stat eventually (I say probably because you can absolutely play a character that never gets past 18, or possibly even 16). Likewise, if you are comparing something to a Vuman, than you probably like feats.

Let's say you want to make a sorcerer with the Inspiring Leader feat, and get an 16 Cha and Con by 4th level (and to keep things simple, we will use the stat array). You could do that by taking a Vuman and going maybe 8 14 13+1 10 12 15+1, grabbing Inspiring Leader as the 1st level feat, and +2 Con at 4th level. Or you could take half-elf and go maybe 8 13+1 15+1 10 12 14+2 and grab Inspiring Leader as the 4th level. By 4th level you both have the same stats and feats, but the half-elf has one more skill, darkvision, and some minor save bonuses. So far as I can tell, the only advantage that Vuman has in that situation is the ability to start out with a feat, which can be really important, but isn't always important.

Overall, I can understand the idea that both Vuman and half-elf are "bland" in that they don't give you anything you can't get elsewhere: skills, stats, feats, and darkvision. No half-orc cheating death. No Yuan Ti resist magic. No dwarven wear heavy armor regardless of strength. That's probably why both half elf and vuman are vaguely overtuned in what they provide by bulk amount alone (4 stat points for half-elf, 2 stat points and what is implied to be equal to a 2-stat ASI for vuman). Regular human is even more tuned up with 6 whole stat points, but it runs into two problems: 1) you have no ability to selectively place them where they will do good, and 2) shoring up tertiary stats isn't an optimal strategy.

So here's how I see it: If you have a concept that revolves around a specific racial power (such as dumping str and grabbing a dwarf to be able to waltz around in platemail anyways) do that. If you have a concept that revolves around getting a feat at first level (be a high-AC melee rogue by taking moderately armored at level 1), take vuman and do that. If you vaguely benefit from high overall stats, including Charisma (yes bard, sorcerer, paladin and warlock, but also social rogues and the like), as well as skills, and wouldn't mind darkvision, strongly consider half-elves.

[sithlordnergal]

Monks and Druid as well.


Small note, you don't automatically get Simple Weapon prof, Wizards and Sorcerers both get limited selections.

Ohh, you're correct. I had fully missed that. Though it should be noted that the Monk actually does have proficiency with all Simple Weapons, the Wizard and Sorcerer gain the Light Crossbow, and the Druid gains the Spear.