Improving "tax" feats

[Biggus]

Looking at this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608486-Improved-Saves-Is-This-Feat-Good) reminded me of something I've been considering for a while, which is improving the feats which are hardly ever taken except as a prerequisite for something so they're at least semi-worthwhile. So tell me, do you ever take any of the following feats, and if not, how much would they have to be improved before you'd consider taking them in their own right?

Alertness and other +2/+2 skill feats
Combat Casting
Dodge
Endurance
Great Fortitude/ Iron Will/ Lightning Reflexes
Skill Focus
Toughness
Weapon Focus

Personally the only ones I can remember taking are Iron Will and Skill Focus:UMD.

For clarity, I'm not asking how much they would have to improve to become must-have feats, just to become something you'd consider taking at least occasionally on their own merits.

Finally, if you still wouldn't be likely to take them even if they were boosted significantly (I suspect Endurance will be in this category for a lot of people for example) can you suggest something to replace them which you would consider taking, preferably without making them a lot more complex?

[liquidformat]

I and my group have been playing around with this idea and here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pFwSVo331SLpKZRV_1utDb_IBKt4lwNtXlPgEgpjX8w/edit?usp=sharing) is what we came up with so far

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

My group made those feats buy one, get one free. So if you're going to spend a feat on a mediocre tax feat, you instead get two mediocre tax feats for the price of one. This doesn't apply when one is gained as a bonus feat with no or very little choice given, like Ranger or Monk bonus feats.

[Rebel7284]

Iron Will is a pretty important speed bump to very broken things.
Just look at:
Incantatrix
Ur Priest
Reserves of Strength

With that said, Iron Will can be purchased from a magical location for 3000GP, maybe making other feats be obtainable this way could be balanced in some games?

[Unavenger]

Quick+dirty but probably functional:

+2/+2 feats: May reroll any check on either skill but must take the second result, in addition to +2 bonus.
Combat Casting: Roll concentration twice and pick better one, also +4 on cast defensively and +2 on other concentration uses.
Dodge: As well as dodge bonus, chosen enemy must re-roll their first hit each round against you.
Endurance: Add in DR 5/- and resistance to everything 5 against environmental hazards, probably worded better to avoid you being near-immune to standard nonmagical fire.
Save feats: Honestly they're not that terrible for +numbers feats. I might want to buff them to +3 or maybe +4 but they're fine.
Skill Focus: Roll twice and pick better one, also +3 on skill check.
Toughness: As improved toughness. No need to have both.
Weapon focus: Reroll first miss per round with weapon. Improved version rerolls second.
Weapon specialisation: First hit per round with weapon deals 1.5* damage. Improved version makes second do so too.

[heavyfuel]

+2/+2 skill feats: +2/+2 bonus, both skills become class skills for all classes
Combat Casting: You automatically cast defensively if you can (so Mage Slayer negates this). Pre-reqs: Concentration 6 ranks.
Dodge: Use PF version and Combine with Mobility. You can still choose an enemy for sake of Elusive Target and similar
Endurance: See Toughness
Great Fortitude/ Iron Will/ Lightning Reflexes: Pick one of the follwing benefits when you select the feat: +5, +3 and 1 reroll/day as Immediate action, +1 and at will reroll as Immediate action
Skill Focus: +5 bonus, skill chosen is now a class skill for all classes
Toughness: Combine with Improved Toughness, Diehard, and Endurance
Weapon Focus: Bonuses now apply similarly to Weapon Mastery feat instead of a single Weapon. A Fighter that takes Weapon Focus automatically gains Weapon Specialization (+4 damage), Greater Weapon Focus (another +2 bonus), Greater Weapon Specialization (another +4), Weapon Mastery (now requires Fighter level 14), and Weapon Supremacy at Fighter levels, 4, 8, 12, 14, and 18 respectively

[liquidformat]

Combat Casting: You automatically cast defensively if you can (so Mage Slayer negates this). Pre-reqs: Concentration 6 ranks.

Fighting Defensively is already so easy to achieve under the normal rules, this makes it a bit too easy.

I am some anti casters especially ones dumb enough to get stuck in melee so I pumped the standard DC to Fight Defensively up to 20+spell level and let Combat Casting bring that down to 15+Spell Level.

[Rater202]

My rule of thumb is that Toughness and Improved Toughness are merged into one feat. +3 HP or +1 HP per level, whichever is better. Improved Toughness then becomes a second feat that requires Toughness as a prerequisite and gives +2 per level for a total of +3 per level.

[heavyfuel]

Fighting Defensively is already so easy to achieve under the normal rules, this makes it a bit too easy

My point exactly. It's already super easy, so why not let them burn a feat to make it automatic if they so want?

It's not like the feat can come online in the super low levels where the risk of failure is much greater.

A lv 3 caster with max ranks and 14 Con only a 9 to cast their 2nd level spells. At lv 6, they only a 7 for their 3rds, but they probably have the cloak that gives them +5, so they really need a 2.

Compared to the new Skill Focus, getting it a lv 3 makes you need a 4. Only 15% chance of failure.

Spending a feat on something that's going to give you a decent defensive capability for 3 levels is fine.

[King of Nowhere]

Skill Focus: +5 bonus, skill chosen is now a class skill for all classes


skill focus is not that bad, just niche. depending on how much leeway a dm is giving, a diplomancer does not need any boost

[FaerieGodfather]

Alertness and other +2/+2 skill feats
Skill Focus

I'm coming from the perspective of Very Optional Pathfinder, with Grouped Skills and Skill Unlocks.

"Alertness" is +2 for every skill in a single group, +4 for trained skills after level 10.

Skill Focus can only be applied to a trained skill. It's just Skill Focus... plus Signature Skill.


Combat Casting

Honestly, I really just want to ban defensive casting. Or even concentration checks, outright. Can't quite bring myself to do it.

Why isn't this just Skill Focus (Concentration), though? +3/+6 for 100% of Concentration checks versus +4 for 99% of them? Combine Concentration with Autohypnosis. Combine it with Iaijutsu Focus. Make Endurance a skill, combine it with that. (Added benefit, it knocks another trash feat off the list.)


Dodge

Make it a flat +X dodge bonus to AC. Combine it with Mobility.


Endurance

It's easier for me to say "just make it a skill" when I'm using the Grouped Skills variant. Otherwise, I'd combine it with Great Fortitude.


Great Fortitude/ Iron Will/ Lightning Reflexes

Great Fortitude -> Endurance or Toughness
Lightning Reflexes -> Improved Initiative
Iron Will -> Diehard (which I never would have thought of on my own; I've been chewing on this for awhile.)


Toughness

Make it 3 + HD extra hit points and combine it with something else. Maybe it improves natural healing?


Weapon Focus

Coming from a PF perspective... I really feel like Weapon Focus should have been deprecated. Its only function is as a prerequisite for a better feat... that everyone who can take it gets a better version of as a class feature.


I and my group have been playing around with this idea and here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pFwSVo331SLpKZRV_1utDb_IBKt4lwNtXlPgEgpjX8w/edit?usp=sharing) is what we came up with so far

A lot of really neat ideas in here. It would be a real shame if someone thoroughly misappropriated them.

[Twurps]

In our group, we made a list of 'crappy prereq feats'. Any non-caster/initiator gets an extra feat out of that list at lvl 1, 3, 5, 7 etc.
Half-casters, and initiators get half of those, so at 1, 5, 9, etc. Full casters don't get any, they don't need any help ;)

If players like 'breaking the system', this one breaks down easily when multiclassing I suppose. In my group however, common sense and a strive for party balance are enough to solve those on a case by case basis.

[Biggus]

Wow, I'd only been intending to give them a fairly small boost (except probably Toughness and Endurance) but most of the suggestions improve them quite dramatically. Maybe I've been underestimating how bad they are compared to actually good feats...

Thanks for all the responses, too many for me to respond to all of them individually, so I'll just say:


I and my group have been playing around with this idea and here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pFwSVo331SLpKZRV_1utDb_IBKt4lwNtXlPgEgpjX8w/edit?usp=sharing) is what we came up with so far

Nice one, lots of good ideas here. I've haven't had time to read all through it but a few did leap out at me:

I had been contemplating making Power Attack and Weapon Finesse into things you could just do without a feat, I like the idea of leaving the prerequisites in place so they still require a certain amount of ability to use though, I hadn't thought of that.

Alertness etc: making them both permanent class skills works well, I might adopt that.

Toughness: have I got this right? If you have Con 18, it gives you an extra 8HPs per level? I know Toughness is one of the most underpowered feats out there but...

Two-weapon Fighting: I'd been considering doing exactly what you describe. Have you found it works well this way?


My group made those feats buy one, get one free. So if you're going to spend a feat on a mediocre tax feat, you instead get two mediocre tax feats for the price of one. This doesn't apply when one is gained as a bonus feat with no or very little choice given, like Ranger or Monk bonus feats.

I think I'd rather improve the feats themselves personally, but that does seem like a pretty balanced way to handle them.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Skill Focus: +3 and makes the skill a class skill.
+2/+2: +2 and reroll the check 1/day
+3 to a save: +3 and you no longer fail on a natural 1
Toughness: Eliminate, use Improved Toughness for any prerequisites
Dodge: Just a flat +1 Dodge bonus to AC per 5 HD.
I don't really think most of them need much improvement. They're not supposed to be build-defining feats, they're just something that you're particularly good at, and they are supposed to be a bit of a cost.

Now, the rest:
Endurance: You as a DM need to use environmental effects more so there's a reason to take it.
Combat Casting: Spellcasters need a few featsinks to keep them in line.
Weapon Focus: Tell the player to stop playing stock Fighters

No, but seriously:
Endurance: This is useless due to magic doing half of what it does better, and the other half coming up maybe once per campaign. It's a ton of benefits, but they never matter. You have to replace it, but there's really no other feat devoted to this sort of thing because they realized no one cares.
Combat Casting: Concentration is just too easy to max. And this doesn't even apply to all Conc checks, just casting defensively and casting while grappled. Skill Focus: Concentration is a better feat, which shows how bad Combat Casting is. Replace this with anything magical and not broken(maybe Craft Magic Arms and Armor?) Or, again, just leave it and tell the casters to suck it up.
Weapon Focus: This one sucks. By mid levels, either your oppts are using Blur/Mirror Image instead of AC, HP instead of AC, or they have so much armor that +1 to-hit doesn't matter. And linking your build to a specific weapon is a risky idea anyway. If the Ancient Guardian of the Temple drops a Flaming Keen Acidic Bastard Sword of Doom, then it doesn't matter how good Weapon Focus: Greatsword is, it's a wasted feat. AND it makes TWF harder. Give it to Fighters as a class feature, let them choose which weapon it applies to each morning when they stretch, and don't worry about it.


lvl 01, 14 con: +06, cast level 1 spells defensively on a 10.
lvl 05, 14 con: +10, cast level 3 spells defensively on a 8.
lvl 09, 16 con: +15, cast level 5 spells defensively on a 5.
lvl 13, 16 con: +19, cast level 7 spells defensively on a 2.

So, at early levels it's meaningful, but it quickly stops being a huge risk, and is irrelevant at higher levels.
All of that assumes you're casting your highest level spells, on odd-numbered levels, and don't have any other resources(a +5 item or similar) put into the check. Or just 5' step out of AoO range.

[Saintheart]

Honestly, to make most of them worth taking I'd consider just making them scale with character level, similar to how Craven does. Maybe not 1-for-1, but say +1 for every 3 character levels you have counted from the time you take them, i.e. you want maximum benefit out of them, you take them early in your career rather than later.

[Gruftzwerg]

My last group tends to give a regional feat for free and sometimes even a +2/+2 skill feat. Cause these are really the least picked one.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Toughness. I'd tack on the following: it also extends the -hp threshold for death for 3 with an additional 3 at level 5, 10, 15, and 20. So in 3.5, your character doesn't die until -13 at 1st level, -16 at 5th level and -24 at 20th level.

[Wildstag]

I’ve seen plenty of people take Endurance, myself included, for the fact thar it’s a prerequisite to Steadfast Determination. Its sleep in medium armor quality is also useful before levels of luxury items. Just slip into your medium armor pajamas and you’re ready for that midnight ambush.

[The Kool]

I don't know if all of these are what you might consider 'enough' of an improvement, but they are in fact an improvement.

Alertness and other +2/+2 skill feats: The Pathfinder version (bonus doubles when you have enough ranks, level 10 if maxed)
Combat Casting: I actually do take this one anyway, but consider "can take 10 when casting defensively"
Dodge: The Pathfinder version (straight up +1 dodge AC, not against a single target)
Endurance: Consider rolling the Cold Endurance and Heat Endurance feats into this one
Great Fortitude/ Iron Will/ Lightning Reflexes: A thought I saw in another thread was to add to each the ability to reroll one failed save of that type per day. Also consider nat 1's no longer being an auto fail.
Skill Focus: The Pathfinder version (as the alertness style of feat, bonus doubles in mid levels)
Toughness: The Pathfinder version (+3hp or +1hp/lvl, whichever is better)
Weapon Focus: I actually take this one as well, but I'm having a hard time thinking of an improvement that wouldn't be a must-have for anyone who swings a weapon.

[Troacctid]

Try having Weapon Focus scale with BAB. Every +6 BAB increases the bonus by 1.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Try having Weapon Focus scale with BAB. Every +6 BAB increases the bonus by 1.That's not really a good option. We'll assume a 11th level fighter*. Here's the AC of the SRD CR 11 monsters:

Elder Air Elemental: 27
Elder Earth Elemental: 22
Elder Fire Elemental: 25
Elder Water Elemental: 23
Adult Black Dragon: 27
YA Blue Dragon: 26
YA Copper Dragon: 25
YA Green Dragon: 27
Juvenile Gold Dragon: 25
10-Headed Cryohydra: 20
10-Headed Pyrohydra: 20
12-Headed Hydra: 22
Hezrou: 23
Retriever Demon: 21
Barbed Devil: 29
Devourer: 24
Cloud Giant: 25
Stone Golem: 26
Archer Harpy: 23
Dire Wereboar Hill Giant: 22
Colossal Monstrous Spider: 22
Cauchemar Nightmare: 26
Hunter Troll: 21
Dread Wraith: 25

A standard-ish Fighter, back of the napkin calculations:
(16 Str at creation, +2 levels, +4 item)=6+11 BAB+3 Greater Magic Weapon=20 attack bonus. Plenty of other modifiers can apply as well(Rage, favored enemy, flanking, Charge, flat-footed, buff spells, Brilliant Energy, etc) that I won't get into here. Point is, Fighter is already hitting every enemy except 4 on a roll of 6 BEFORE we get to the other bonuses. And that's level-appropriate enemies, a horde of mooks are even easier to hit. At mid levels, AC on most enemies ceases to be a relevant concern for the Fighter. Weapon Focus, as a to-hit bonus, is almost certainly going to not matter for much beyond letting your third iterative attack land. I don't think there's a good way to buff that feat without completely rebalancing the armor system.

*would get a +3 under your system

[Troacctid]

Remember that Weapon Focus also offsets penalties for iteratives, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, and more. If your attack bonus is too high, there are ample ways to convert it into something more useful.

[skunk3]

The way that my party approaches such feats is that they are 'half feats,' meaning you can basically get 2 for 1. However, like someone mentioned with more powerful builds like Dweomerkeeper and the like, I'd make them count as full feats just to tax them slightly more.

We also implement many of the suggestions in this thread. Toughness is basically Improved Toughness and if you keep taking it, the effects stack AND are retroactive.

[SirNibbles]

Looking at this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608486-Improved-Saves-Is-This-Feat-Good) reminded me of something I've been considering for a while, which is improving the feats which are hardly ever taken except as a prerequisite for something so they're at least semi-worthwhile. So tell me, do you ever take any of the following feats, and if not, how much would they have to be improved before you'd consider taking them in their own right?

Alertness and other +2/+2 skill feats
Combat Casting
Dodge
Endurance
Great Fortitude/ Iron Will/ Lightning Reflexes
Skill Focus
Toughness
Weapon Focus

Personally the only ones I can remember taking are Iron Will and Skill Focus:UMD.

For clarity, I'm not asking how much they would have to improve to become must-have feats, just to become something you'd consider taking at least occasionally on their own merits.

Finally, if you still wouldn't be likely to take them even if they were boosted significantly (I suspect Endurance will be in this category for a lot of people for example) can you suggest something to replace them which you would consider taking, preferably without making them a lot more complex?

Here are my suggestions:


Combat Casting: Replace benefit with that of Improved Combat Casting
Toughness: Maximises all your HD; not retroactive.
Weapon Focus: Increases by +1 for every 5 BAB.

[heavyfuel]

skill focus is not that bad, just niche. depending on how much leeway a dm is giving, a diplomancer does not need any boost

If a player decides to use Diplomacy to break the game, I guarantee you it's not the +3 from Skill Focus that's allowing him to do that, and it's not the extra +2 that will allow him so.

Diplomacy's problem of being abusable is separate from SF's problem of being lackluster.

This change to SF allows caracters to be more diverse, as getting a class skill for all skills can make or break a character concept.

[NigelWalmsley]

The simple solution to the problem of bad feats is to just give people more feats. The overwhelming majority of feats are not that exciting, and those that are often edge towards being broken. If you want to make people take a wider variety of feats, just give them more feats. Just give people a feat each level (or even two).

[SirNibbles]

The simple solution to the problem of bad feats is to just give people more feats. The overwhelming majority of feats are not that exciting, and those that are often edge towards being broken. If you want to make people take a wider variety of feats, just give them more feats. Just give people a feat each level (or even two).

That would just make people take the broken feats, doing nothing to help the feats that are trash.

[NigelWalmsley]

That would just make people take the broken feats, doing nothing to help the feats that are trash.

There aren't that many broken feats. If a 9th level Druid gets nine feats, they are not all going to be as good as Greenbound Summoning or Natural Spell. But if you're really concerned, you can list the good feats and only let people take those at 1/3/6/etc. That's still orders of magnitude easier than trying to fix an appreciable number of the bad feats in 3e.

[heavyfuel]

The simple solution to the problem of bad feats is to just give people more feats. The overwhelming majority of feats are not that exciting, and those that are often edge towards being broken. If you want to make people take a wider variety of feats, just give them more feats. Just give people a feat each level (or even two).

You're drastically underestimating the number of good feats in the game.

DMing an E6 BBEG with 40 feats I still ran out of feats without even considering stuff like Alertness

[NotASpiderSwarm]

One tax feat not mentioned: Mobility. It's usually required alongside Dodge, but for some reason there's no alternates like Desert Wind Dodge etc for Mobility, and it's if anything more useless. +4 AC against AoOs. How would other people make it work?

[SirNibbles]

One tax feat not mentioned: Mobility. It's usually required alongside Dodge, but for some reason there's no alternates like Desert Wind Dodge etc for Mobility, and it's if anything more useless. +4 AC against AoOs. How would other people make it work?

I'd go with enabling you to Tumble more easily. Something like automatically succeeding in Tumble checks vs your Dodge target to avoid AoOs in addition to the AC bonus

[martixy]

Here's what I did:


Looking at this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608486-Improved-Saves-Is-This-Feat-Good) reminded me of something I've been considering for a while, which is improving the feats which are hardly ever taken except as a prerequisite for something so they're at least semi-worthwhile. So tell me, do you ever take any of the following feats, and if not, how much would they have to be improved before you'd consider taking them in their own right?

Alertness and other +2/+2 skill feats - Pathfinder
Combat Casting - I nerfed casting in combat, and made this feat alleviate the nerf, many approaches, I chose to increase DC by 1/2 attacker BAB
Dodge - https://michaeliantorno.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/
Endurance - See above
Great Fortitude/ Iron Will/ Lightning Reflexes - 1/day reroll, adjust up as desired
Skill Focus - Pathfinder
Toughness - Pathfinder
Weapon Focus - Fold weapon spec into the feat(lvl 4), have a special ability based on the weapon(lvl 7). For example, spears give the benefit of the Long Strike feat, Double weaps give the benefit of the Spinning defense feat

Personally the only ones I can remember taking are Iron Will and Skill Focus:UMD.

For clarity, I'm not asking how much they would have to improve to become must-have feats, just to become something you'd consider taking at least occasionally on their own merits.

Finally, if you still wouldn't be likely to take them even if they were boosted significantly (I suspect Endurance will be in this category for a lot of people for example) can you suggest something to replace them which you would consider taking, preferably without making them a lot more complex?

[MesiDoomstalker]

For reference; I'm using Pathfinder as the basis of all these alterations.

I folded Dodge and Mobility into the same feat and made Dodge scale +1 per 4 levels (min 1).

Skill Focus, I made at 5 ranks, able to Take 10 regardless of circumstances and then at 15 Ranks, Take 20 1/day regardless of circumstances and no time increase. I also included Skill Unlocks, because they are cool and fun and having a whole feat to them didn't seem worthwhile in most instances. Also automatic Class Skill (functionally another +3, for a potential +9 to the skill if it was/is not a Class skill already).

Weapon Focus I made scale with BAB+ Bonus Combat Feats class feature. So a pure Fighter will hit Weapon Focus, Spec and their improved versions right on time. But a full BAB class with no Bonus Combat Feats class feature will still gain the whole benefit. But not till 17th.

I just got rid of Alertness et. al. They overlap with Skill Focus a ton so I failed to see the benefit of changing them in a unique way. At best, I'd be splitting my alterations to Skill Focu to Alertness et. al. and that didn't seem like fun or useful.

Toughness applies its bonus to max HP and the roll to stabilize while bleeding out (since that roll is stupidly difficult if you are even somewhat in the negatives). I also wrapped up Endurance into Toughness at the same time.

The Save Booster Trio got 1x 5/lvl reroll (min 1).

I didn't touch Combat Casting, as (at least in Pathfinder), hitting concentration checks is either a near guarantee (nearly everything) or basically impossible (grappled).

But this is for a group who would see regular Toughness and say "Hey I keep dropping below 0 a lot, Toughness seems like a good idea" so its more propping up a low-OP group then any attempt to make the feats appetizing to begin with.

EDIT: As a general rule, I don't apply these changes to monstrous characters. Humanoid NPCs will get the altered versions and boss monsters will too, but pulled straight from the book won't benefit from these.

[liquidformat]

Toughness: have I got this right? If you have Con 18, it gives you an extra 8HPs per level? I know Toughness is one of the most underpowered feats out there but...

Two-weapon Fighting: I'd been considering doing exactly what you describe. Have you found it works well this way?

Trying to hit a balance where toughness gives a meaningful benefit to someone who has a +1 con mod with d4 hd and someone who has a +5 con mod and d12 hd is surprisingly hard. This is probably the sixth or so version I have tried and still don't feel like it is quite right, the problem is while it is very powerful early game making you super tanky it doesn't make much of a difference once you hit 10ish and all those save or die/save or suck spells come online.

Making TWF, TWD, spring attack and other such feat chains into scaling feats has actually worked out quite well, it has made a lot of builds actually work and helps make mundanes compete slightly better since you are leaving more room for feats that give you interesting things to do in combat rather than just making sure you have enough attacks. I also found the bonuses for fighter/ranger/swashbuckler/tempest levels is a helpful little boost without going crazy.

For feats like alertness having them grant skills has been a very nice addition without a dramatic swing in the feat power. Similarly having skill focus' bonus scale with skill ranks is a very nice way to give players an extra bit for investing in a feat without front loading abuse potential at low levels

Weapon focus having greater weapon focus, weapon specialization and all those other feats combined then making what you get dependent on fighter levels works out pretty well to avoid horrid feat tax and make the fighter class more powerful.

Along with these feat upgrades I have also revamped a lot of classes and even some functionality like adjusting iteratives and what you get:
Attack adjustments:
Iterative gained: +6,+11, and +16
+8 and +15 - additional attacks as standard action.
+12 - 1 attack as swift action.
+19 - 1 attack as a free action.

Properties of this progression:
1. For the price of a standard and a swift, at BAB+15 you do get 4 extra attacks, but not technically a full attack action, which some bits of the game specifically interact with(hence why it's okay to get these a BAB earlier than a regular 4-attack full attack).
2. You get a nice progression in the mid levels, where you keep getting interesting new options regularly.
3. A default use of your swift action, which for certain builds is a very good idea.
4. Swift actions count as free. So anytime you can act - including around AoOs, immediate actions, etc.
5. 1 attack as a free action is strong, but still pales in comparison to what casters do at these levels. Abuse potential indeterminate. Food for thought. Only counterpoint might be that it adds more of the same rather than interesting things to do. Quantitative rather than qualitative. Martials are significantly better served by the latter.

[martixy]

Trying to hit a balance where toughness gives a meaningful benefit to someone who has a +1 con mod with d4 hd and someone who has a +5 con mod and d12 hd is surprisingly hard. This is probably the sixth or so version I have tried and still don't feel like it is quite right, the problem is while it is very powerful early game making you super tanky it doesn't make much of a difference once you hit 10ish and all those save or die/save or suck spells come online.

Why is it hard? What do you want it to do?

Because right now I would consider your version terrible game design. Mostly because of the "not retroactive" part.
But also because you have no clear idea of what you want to achieve with it.

Do you want it to scale with the damage, as it goes up along the levels?
Investigate how damage scales, and introduce a scaling factor that compensates? (Maybe it gives a level2 benefit, scaling quadratically - 1, 4, 9, 16, 25, 36, ..., 361, 400. Feel free to fine-tune the exponent. 1.5? Maybe it scales exponentially?)
Are you looking to make it benefit high HD creatures more? Why? Keep wizards squishy and allow front-liners to survive more? Going from dX+Con to dX+2*Con is not a bad idea. Don't bother messing with the die, unless you want to work in .5 HP increments - i.e. introducing a rule of rerolling 1s is(or saying that 1s count as 2, they are equivalent mathematically I think? now I'm curious, gonna check this out) counts as giving a +0.5 HP/level.

Drop the "not retroactive" part. Character building should be commutative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commutative_property).

[AnimeTheCat]

I've done these things for feat taxes in my games:

Toughness: You gain 2x your con modifier for each HD. This feat can be taken multiple times, each time you take it you add an additional number of HP equal to you HD times your Con Modifier (effectively 3x, 4x, 5x, etc). If you don't have a positive con modifier, this feat removes the con penalty for the purposes of determining HP. For example, a level 1 wizard with a 6 Con score would normally have 2 HP (4 hp from the class and -2 HP from their low con score). With Toughness, they would have 4 HP. When taken additional times in this way, you gain +1 HP per HD. So if that same wizard were also a Human and they took toughness as a bonus feat for level 1, they would have 5 HP. At level 2 they would add 1d4+1 to their HP Pool.

Dodge: You gain +1 Dodge Bonus to AC. You can take the feat multiple times and the effects stack.
Mobility: You gan a +1 Dodge Bonus to AC. This, like all dodge bonuses, stacks with other dodge bonuses including those granted from the dodge feat. Your movement speed (of all types that you have natively) increases by 10 ft/round. When moving through an enemy's threatened space, you may select one attack of opportunity to negate. On all subsequent attacks of opportunity, you may choose to either accept the attack or roll an opposed dodge check (d20+Dex Modifier+Dodge Bonus). You must decide whether you are rolling an opposed dodge check before the total of the enemy attack has been determined.

Weapon Focus: You gain a +1 bonus to your attack rolls with the selected weapon. For every additional weapon feat you take that has Weapon Focus as a prerequisite (weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization, combat style feats requiring the weapon focus feat, etc) you gain an additional +1 bonus to your attack rolls.
Weapon Specialization: You gain a +2 bonus to weapon damage rolls with the selected weapon. For every additional weapon feat you take that has Weapon Specialization as a prerequisite (greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization, combat style feats requiring the weapon specialization feat, etc) you gain an additional +2 bonus to your weapon damage rolls.
Greater Weapon Focus: You may treat your favored weapon as if it were magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, even if the weapon is not magical. Additionally, if you have 4 or more feats that have weapon focus as a prerequisite, you may choose to treat your weapon as any one of the following: lawful, good, evil, chaotic. This is only for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. If you have 6 or more feats that have weapon focus as a prerequisite, you may choose to treat your weapon as any two of the above. This is an extraordinary effect and is not subject to being dispelled or suppressed by antimagic, or any other means to suppress or end magic effects. The choice is made at the beginning of the day. You need 8 hours of rest and an hour to practice your martial art to change the properites of your weapon focus.
Greater Weapon Specialization: You may treat your favored weapon as if it had any one of the following effects: Ghost Touch, Flaming, Shocking, Freezing, Corrosive, Impact (blunt only), Impaling (piercing only), Merciful, Psychokinetic, Screaming, Warning, Throwing, or Sweeping. (Other +1 bonus weapon properties allowed on request, this was just an initial list). This choice must be made at the time of picking this feat. The effects of this feat only apply to chosed favored weapons when used by the holder of this feat, meaning you can't pass the weapon on to an ally to allow them to make sure of the ability. This feat may be taken multiple times and the effects combine, meaning that if you take this feat twice for longswords, you can pick two of those options from that list. This is an extraordinary ability.
High Weapon Focus: You may treat your chosen weapon as if it were made of a special material for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. This stacks with the effects of Greater Weapon Focus. As with Greater Weapon Focus, you require 8 hours of rest and 1 hour of practice to change the properties of your High Weapon Focus.
High Weapoon Specialization: You may treat your Favored weapon as if it had one of the following effects: Acidic Burst, Bane, Energy Surge, Ghost Strike, Incorporeal Binding, Anarcic, Aquan, Auran, Axiomatic, Banishing, Consumptive, Disruption (bludgeoning only), Enervating, Flaming Burst, Icy Burst, Shocking BUrst, Parrying, Unholy, Holy, Heavenly Burst, Unholy Surge, Holy Surge, Screaming Burst, Speed, Ethereal Reaver, Wounding, or Paralytic Burst. (Other +1 or higher weapon properties available). The choice is made at the time the feat is selected. This feat may be taken multiple times. The effects are extraordinary.

Skill Focus: You gain +1 skill point per level (4 if taken at first level) specifically to be used in the subject of the Skill Focus feat. Additionally, you gain +4 to all skill checks involving that skill. Finally, this skill is always treated as a class skill for you.
+2/+2 skill feats: You gain those skills as class skills. At level 8, the bonus increases to +3/+3. At level 16 The bonuses increase to +4/+4.

Great Fortitude/Lightning Relexes/Iron Will: Gain a +2 bonus to the intended save. 1/day roll 2 dice and take the highest. additionally 1/day, you may choose to roll the save improved by this feat in place of another saving throw. For example, if you have the Iron Will feat, you can choose to roll a will save in place of a reflex save to avoid being injured by a Lightning Bolt spell. The feats can be taken multiple times and the effects stack, granting you an additional +2 to the save, 1/day 2 dice roll, and 1/day save change.

[bekeleven]

All skill-boosting feats use their pathfinder equivalents, which are strictly better. Weapon Finesse is granted for free. I buff many crappy feats below. Combined feats count as all feats you qualify for, for purposes of prerequisites. If you need a different crappy feat, talk to me and we can maybe work something out.

Dodge: Uses Pathfinder Dodge. When the prerequisites are met, includes Mobility and Spring Attack.

Great Fortitude: Includes Toughness and Improved Toughness.

Invisible Spell: +1 Level Adjust.

Iron Will: Includes Blind-Fight.

Lighting Reflexes: Includes Quick Draw when prerequisites are met. Quick Draw can be used as "Quick Holster" once per round.

Point-Blank Shot: Includes Far Shot.

Two-Weapon Defense: When the prerequisites are met, this includes Improved and Greater versions.

Two-Weapon Fighting: When the prerequisites are met, this includes Improved and Greater versions.

Weapon Focus: When the prerequisites are met, this includes Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization.From my PbP houserules thread.

[heavyfuel]

In our group, we made a list of 'crappy prereq feats'. Any non-caster/initiator gets an extra feat out of that list at lvl 1, 3, 5, 7 etc.
Half-casters, and initiators get half of those, so at 1, 5, 9, etc. Full casters don't get any, they don't need any help ;)

If players like 'breaking the system', this one breaks down easily when multiclassing I suppose. In my group however, common sense and a strive for party balance are enough to solve those on a case by case basis.

This is a cool idea. Kinda similiar to people that assign values to feats (usually from 1 to 3) and you gain X points to spend on feats when you'd normally get one. Would you mind sharing your list?


From my PbP houserules thread.

Iron Will includes Blind-fight? Wat?!

Also, I'd say point-blank shot is pretty much the opposite of far shot. Why combine the two? Why not PBS and Precise Shot? And far-shot with, say, increasing point-blank range from 30ft to 45 or 60ft (thus allowing Rogues to sneak attack from range with more safety)

Lastly, and not really on point for this thread, but I don't think +1 level ajustment on Invisible Spell makes it any less broken.

[bekeleven]

Iron Will includes Blind-fight? Wat?!There was no feat that was flavorfully similar to iron will and crappy enough to throw in with it, so I squinted. Even combined, nobody is taking these feats except to qualify for things.


Also, I'd say point-blank shot is pretty much the opposite of far shot. Why combine the two? Why not PBS and Precise Shot?Because I've never seen a player spend a feat on far shot.