Paladin of Asmodeus

[Nagog]

Happy Friday y'all!
So I'm building a Paladin of Asmodeus for either a future PC or an NPC, and I'm torn between making them a Oathbreaker or Path of Conquest/Vengeance. Oathbreaker fits the Fiend theme with it's aura, but much of it feels very direct and blunt compared to Asmodeus' subtle and manipulative nature. Trickery, however, is far too benign. Any suggestions? The race is Minotaur btw if that changes anything.

[kiwi5ucker]

I think that a better fit for that would be a bladelock. Fighter 1/Fiend warlock 5+ is really strong and a lot of fun. If youre looking to be the tank of the party still, barbarian 2/Fiend warlcok 5+ is also really fun. it sounds counter productive but you dont need to concetrate on the spell armor of agathys and whenever you get a kill you get temp hp, which barbarians love with resistance to everything. Paladin doesnt seem like it fits too much to me.

[Man_Over_Game]

Happy Friday y'all!
So I'm building a Paladin of Asmodeus for either a future PC or an NPC, and I'm torn between making them a Oathbreaker or Path of Conquest/Vengeance. Oathbreaker fits the Fiend theme with it's aura, but much of it feels very direct and blunt compared to Asmodeus' subtle and manipulative nature. Trickery, however, is far too benign. Any suggestions? The race is Minotaur btw if that changes anything.

I'd go with Conquest.

Asmodeus is not against manipulating and using lesser beings. He's also not big into direct combat, while the Vengeance and Oathbreaker Paladins definitely are.

Additionally, the Conquest Paladin is more dependent on Charisma than almost any other Paladin subclass, which would mean you'd be better at acting like an acolyte of Asmodeus when you wanted to.

That being said...you're also a Minotaur, and anyone serving under Asmodeus would want a big, hulking black knight to do their dirty work.

Do you want to act like Asmodeus, or serve him? A worshiper, or a henchman?

[Millstone85]

Do you follow the lore of minotaurs as presented in the Monster Manual?

If so, yes, it certainly matters that the character is a minotaur. The core themes of the race are the rejection of authority and the indulgence in the basest primal urges, particularly bloodlust. Minotaurs were also made in the image of the demon lord Baphomet. Quite an unexpected creature to find in the service of an archdevil! With that in mind, I would go with the Oath of Vengeance, some event having led the character to turn against the Abyss.

If you do not follow MM minotaur lore, then here is my general take on each oath.

Oath of Conquest
The character is one of the hell knights mentioned in the lore of the oath. They likely fully embrace the values of Baator.

Oath of Vengeance
The character only serves devils to better fight demons, or some other enemy they regard as a greater evil. As suggested in the lore of the oath, they know that their own purity is forfeited, but they regard this as sacrificing their soul to save others.

Oathbreaker
The character used to follow a different oath, but could not live up to it. They could simply have renounced their powers, but instead chose to keep them by falling all the way down.

[Nagog]

I'd go with Conquest.

Asmodeus is not against manipulating and using lesser beings. He's also not big into direct combat, while the Vengeance and Oathbreaker Paladins definitely are.

Additionally, the Conquest Paladin is more dependent on Charisma than almost any other Paladin subclass, which would mean you'd be better at acting like an acolyte of Asmodeus when you wanted to.

That being said...you're also a Minotaur, and anyone serving under Asmodeus would want a big, hulking black knight to do their dirty work.

Do you want to act like Asmodeus, or serve him? A worshiper, or a henchman?

I'm looking to build them something like an Inquisitor for Asmodeus, keeping other devils in line (and existing outside the Devil Heiarchy) as well as being an agent in the Physical Plane, a place Asmodeus has some difficulty accessing personally.


Do you follow the lore of minotaurs as presented in the Monster Manual?

If so, yes, it certainly matters that the character is a minotaur. The core themes of the race are the rejection of authority and the indulgence in the basest primal urges, particularly bloodlust. Minotaurs were also made in the image of the demon lord Baphomet. Quite an unexpected creature to find in the service of an archdevil! With that in mind, I would go with the Oath of Vengeance, some event having led the character to turn against the Abyss.

If you do not follow MM minotaur lore, then here is my general take on each oath.

Oath of Conquest
The character is one of the hell knights mentioned in the lore of the oath. They likely fully embrace the values of Baator.

Oath of Vengeance
The character only serves devils to better fight demons, or some other enemy they regard as a greater evil. As suggested in the lore of the oath, they know that their own purity is forfeited, but they regard this as sacrificing their soul to save others.

Oathbreaker
The character used to follow a different oath, but could not live up to it. They could simply have renounced their powers, but instead chose to keep them by falling all the way down.

I'm using the Minotaur player race and the flavor found there. I have some general ideas for the flavor of how they act, but I'm unsure as to how to translate that into mechanics and abilities. I'd say that for the flavor they'd probably be Conquest, but I'm unsure if that quite gets the fiendish effect across mechanically, much less the manipulative and conniving nature of Asmodeus vs. the attitudes and tactics of most devil's.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Happy Friday y'all!
So I'm building a Paladin of Asmodeus for either a future PC or an NPC, and I'm torn between making them a Oathbreaker or Path of Conquest/Vengeance. Oathbreaker fits the Fiend theme with it's aura, but much of it feels very direct and blunt compared to Asmodeus' subtle and manipulative nature. Trickery, however, is far too benign. Any suggestions? The race is Minotaur btw if that changes anything.

First, Paladins aren't "Paladin of Deity", Paladins actually don't even need a deity. They just need to believe in an idea.

Because Paladins are insane, they believe so hard that things happen. Like kuo-toa level of insanity right there.

A Paladin of Asmodeus would likely be a "Paladin of Treachery", probably parading around as a Paladin of Devotion with a sign of Pelor or whatever hanging around.

Needs some changes but it's got a nice base.

[Nagog]

First, Paladins aren't "Paladin of Deity", Paladins actually don't even need a deity. They just need to believe in an idea.

Because Paladins are insane, they believe so hard that things happen. Like kuo-toa level of insanity right there.

A Paladin of Asmodeus would likely be a "Paladin of Treachery", probably parading around as a Paladin of Devotion with a sign of Pelor or whatever hanging around.

Needs some changes but it's got a nice base.

While Paladins don't need a God, this one has one. What makes you say Treachery? I like the idea of the Treachery Paladin, but for this one I feel it's pretty benign. Doesn't quite get across the power and presence of being a Paladin of Asmodeus.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

While Paladins don't need a God, this one has one. What makes you say Treachery? I like the idea of the Treachery Paladin, but for this one I feel it's pretty benign. Doesn't quite get across the power and presence of being a Paladin of Asmodeus.

Asmodeus is all about treachery.

How did Asmodeus take out the "He Who Was"? Treachery.

Who does Asmodeus share an alignment with? Lawyers (LE).






As a god, Nentir Vale Asmodeus has the portfolio of Power, Domination and Tyranny, and his associated Cleric Domains in "Divine Power" are Civilization and Tyranny. His three commandments are:

* Seek power over others.
* Repay evil with evil, and exploit the kindness of others.
* Show neither pity nor compassion for those caught underfoot on your rise to power; the weak do not deserve compassion.

If this doesn't say treachery, I don't know what does. He still has the same background in 5e as from the wiki...


In the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, the Realms Asmodeus retains the same recent history as the 4th edition version. He consumed the divine spark of Azuth, and through it achieved godhood during the Spellplague. This means that, while before the Spellplague he was Lord of the Nine Hells, and a powerful immortal being, he only became a god after the Spellplague.

Treachery Paladin may need some work, last I saw it was just playtest material, but Treachery is right up Asmodeus's ally.

[Nidgit]

This is going to be completely out of left field, but what about a reflavored Oath of Redemption? If you just look at the mechanical abilities, a lot of them are geared towards pacifying your enemies and reflecting or redirecting their attacks. Change the tenets to something more Evil and you get a Paladin that can trap and bind enemies into deals that serve you and your devil masters.

If you're looking for subtle and clever, those abilities are the best you could ask for from a Paladin.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

This is going to be completely out of left field, but what about a reflavored Oath of Redemption? If you just look at the mechanical abilities, a lot of them are geared towards pacifying your enemies and reflecting or redirecting their attacks. Change the tenets to something more Evil and you get a Paladin that can trap and bind enemies into deals that serve you and your devil masters.

If you're looking for subtle and clever, those abilities are the best you could ask for from a Paladin.

Also, yes.

It also fits that people won't think of you as a follower of Amadeus

[Nagog]

Asmodeus is all about treachery.

How did Asmodeus take out the "He Who Was"? Treachery.

Who does Asmodeus share an alignment with? Lawyers (LE).

If this doesn't say treachery, I don't know what does. He still has the same background in 5e as from the wiki...

Treachery Paladin may need some work, last I saw it was just playtest material, but Treachery is right up Asmodeus's ally.

The reason I am turned away from Treachery is it feels far too chaotic aligned for me. The way I interpret Asmodeus from the lore released is that yes he is treacherous, but he's not "lie to your face" deceptive, he's more "read the fine print" deceptive. He's honest, but crafty. Illusions doesn't feel like the kind of thing he'd rely on so heavily, I feel he'd rely far more on subtle tricks and open manipulation. More of a Thanos than a Joker.


This is going to be completely out of left field, but what about a reflavored Oath of Redemption? If you just look at the mechanical abilities, a lot of them are geared towards pacifying your enemies and reflecting or redirecting their attacks. Change the tenets to something more Evil and you get a Paladin that can trap and bind enemies into deals that serve you and your devil masters.

If you're looking for subtle and clever, those abilities are the best you could ask for from a Paladin.

I will have to look into that, that does sound like an interesting take on it!

[Millstone85]

I'm looking to build them something like an Inquisitor for Asmodeus, keeping other devils in line (and existing outside the Devil Heiarchy) as well as being an agent in the Physical Plane, a place Asmodeus has some difficulty accessing personally.

I'm using the Minotaur player race and the flavor found there. I have some general ideas for the flavor of how they act, but I'm unsure as to how to translate that into mechanics and abilities. I'd say that for the flavor they'd probably be Conquest, but I'm unsure if that quite gets the fiendish effect across mechanically, much less the manipulative and conniving nature of Asmodeus vs. the attitudes and tactics of most devil's.Sorry, but no oath feature feels particularly manipulative or conniving to me.

To be an inquisitor for Asmodeus, I like the Oath of Vengeance's Channel Divinity: Abjure Enemy. It lets you "speak a prayer of denunciation" to frighten a creature, with fiends having disadvantage on the saving throw. It even has an effect on a failed roll. Or you could reflavor the Oath of Devotion, which has several anti-fiend features.


Because Paladins are insane, they believe so hard that things happen. Like kuo-toa level of insanity right there.I would treat paladin oaths as philosophies, which are an alternative to gods even for clerics. Divine magic in general is about people believing in something and fewer people drawing from that pool of faith magic.


How did Asmodeus take out the "He Who Was"?
He still has the same background in 5e as from the wiki... He Who Was, a soft and merciful deity of law and good who ruled the dominion of Baator before Asmodeus overthrew him, was never canon to the Forgotten Realms, not even in 4e.

[da newt]

What will your oath be? What do you stand for? What will be your life's purpose? How will you rigidly / religiously follow your directive to ensure you never violate your oath and lose your paladin powers?



Similarly - How will this EVIL PC fit into any adventuring party? Are they going to be corrupting and betraying and manipulating the rest of the party all the time in order to become the ruler of the party (the core of Asmodeus)?

It's fun to be edgy, but how does an EVIL PC interact with the world other than to be the bad guy, enslave all the weak, create their evil empire / army?

Will all the PCs in your adventuring party be LAWFUL EVIL?

[Sception]

If you're going for an inquisitor, conquest is the right oath subclass for that, but there are a couple problems with it. First, conquest is extremely charisma dependant. Once it's fully up and running - between paladin 7 and paladin 9 - the characters signature abilities debilitate & immobilize enemies that fail their saves against your frighten effects, and dk absolutely nothing against enemies that pass those saves.

Minotaur lacks a racial bonus to charisma, and that's going to hold you back somewhat in this regard if your group uses points buy or standard array. It's not entirely unworkable, mind you, especially if your DM allows the UA skill feat 'Menacing', but no matter what you'll be behind in your cha mod, putting even more pressure on the conqueror's already overtaxed ASIs. Consider instead Fallen Aasimar, Zariel Legacy tiefling, or really any other race that can have racial bonuses to str and cha.

That's only really a worry in point buy or standard array, though. If you're rolling stats then just roll goid and you'll be fine. And again conqueror is still workable with a starting 14 or 15 in cha, maybe not optimized but still plenty playable.


The other, potentially more serious problem, is that if you're hoping to keep devils in line specifically then you run into problems with their near universal advantage on saving throws vs spells and magical effects, making it very difficult to frighten them. Dipping 3 levels into battlemaster fighter for a non-magical frighten ability might be worthwhile.

For non-combat social interactions, where you don't need to inflict the frighten effect specifically, Intimidate works just fine on devils, especially once you have enough levels under your belt that your smite damage is a real threat and doubly especially if they know who you work for. So you shouldn't have any trouble bossing arou d friendly devils. Imposing your will on hostile ones is where you might run into trouble.

...

All that considered another oath might be a better choice for you. UA treachery is a lot of fun for a 'dastardly' villain type, with a skill set that gets accross Asmodeous's more tricksy nature.


Oathbreaker, though, is probably the best mechanical fit for you. While it doesn't have the same inquisitorial feel as the conqueror, it does have a classical anti-paladin skill set, and it doesn't suffer as much from having less than max charisma. If you go with oathbreaker, consider polearm master, fighting with either a halberd or spear and shield, as the bonus action attack gets you an extra use of your aura damage each round, and the more easily triggered opportunity attacks can get you yet another.

If you want to multiclass, 3 levels into champion fighter for second wind, a second combat style, action surge, and the increased critical range would well complement the oathbreaker abilities. Between extra attack, action surge, and a bonus action attack from PAM, that's 5 chances to crit on a 19-20 for masdive smite damage, plus up to 5 times your cha mid of extra damage from your aura.

2 to 3 levels of fiend warlock can help convey your allegiance and get you devil's sight, which combined with your oath spell darkness can help you get advantage for even more critical smites. Not against devils, of course, but still useful and thematic, and if you have diabolic allies then you can all take advantage of both your aura bonus to melee damage and advantage from your darkness spell against enemies that can't see through it.

3 levels of warlock gets you a pact boon. Blade can get you a +1 weapon of your choice via improved pact weapon, which might be critical if your weapon options are restricted by polearm master and you can't reliably get a magic weapon that fits. If your DM has dropped you a magic spear or halberd, then I'd go with chain instead, as the imo familiar is great, very thematic, and gift of the ever living ones is a great invocation for a melee tough guy.

Sorcerer is another classic & strong multiclassing option for paladin, granting faster access to more and higher level spell slots to smite with, a wider spell list to choose from - particularly via divine soul, and some useful class features, especially metamagic quicken to let you cast spells and make weapon attacks in the same turn.

One final option to consider is Bard. Same spell slot progression as sorcerer, but class features leaning more towards support & manipulation, which might help fit the whole agent of Asmodeus angle, particularly via college of glamour or whispers.


Of course multiclassing at all isn't necessary. Paladin 20 works fine, especially after xanathar's guide added improved find steed. They're just some options to consider. Near about any oathbreaker or conqueror build that takes at least seven levels of paladin and finishes out with any mix of paladin, warlock, sorcerer, bard, and/or fighter will do fine, as long as your take care not to lose out on ASIs.

... speaking of ASIs ...

Regardless of your oath choice, balancing your ASIs between necessary feats (oathbreaker wants polearm master, conqueror wants something to shore up concentration saves - warcaster, resiliant, or lucky depending on the build), raising strength, and raising charisma can be difficult, especially if you're starting a step behind by playing a race that doesn't grant bonuses to both strength and charisma in a point guy game.

See if you can convince your patron / dm to drop you one of the strength fixing magic items to help with this. Gauntlets of ogre power are good enough that you shouldn't feel compelled to worry about strength after that, though obviously a belt of giant strength would be better.