Strongest gods/beings in D&D 3rd edition

[dupondavignon]

Originally Posted by Sims View Post
Is it St. Cuth?

I don't have all their stats memorized but in deities and demigods thor is freaking terrifying.

You're not supposed to mix all the pantheons in one campaign. Standard campaigns, containing kobolds, goblins, elves, etc., will in most cases prefer to use the 1st pantheon in the book (as implied by the one asking the question you were answering, since it mentions St. Cuthbert).

Furthermore, I refer above all to books, since it's only there that I can find the characteristics of the gods, among others. Not misinterpreted presuppositions from various, multiple, and vague sources (like all those talking about Lady of Pain, where all I could see concerned her ability to limit incursions into her own domain, not her absolute power, even more outside of her Realm).
There is no data as to her true characteristics, for a reason that would seem most obvious to me: because they would not exist (the creators had not yet established them).

As for the capacities of the Lords of Evil, they are also precisely described in the book devoted to them (Book of Vile Darkness).
There is no mention of any power that would allow them to have even the slightest chance of defeating most of the gods (and even many Avatars of powerful gods) presented in the 3rd edition.
Everyone is free to refer to the 2nd edition, or to any other, but one must avoid mixing genres, and this more concerning the editions than the pantheons. No edition is truer than the other (a priori), but if we talk about the 3rd edition, then we must stay in the 3rd and talk about what the sources concerning it mention.

If there are new editions, it's because Wizards (and predecessors) needed above all to renew themselves in order to keep selling, the option of inventing new rules being apparently easier for them than to release new campaigns continuously. But each edition is somehow independent, the pseudo-links they try to make being only there to convince the potential buyer to buy all the editions as they go (which seems absurd to me, the perfect acquisition of the rules of only one of them already seeming a challenge).

[OrbanSirgen]

Zeus and Re-Horakhty are tied for having the most class levels... Zeus is barbarian20/fighter20/cleric10, Re-Horakhty is paladin20/monk20/cleric10... Thor does have a Str of 92, but half of that comes from his magic belt...
I think it's safe to say that Hestia and Imhotep are among the weakest deities... They are both expert20...

[Yogibear41]

You're not supposed to mix all the pantheons in one campaign.

Why not? Our campaign world has TONS of Deities, every culture has its own pantheon, with some cultures being a melting pot and mixing pantheons together. Some Deities are likely universally known, but in a distant land thousands of miles away that no one has ever been to or even knows about maybe they have an entire new set of deities, maybe its even the same deities with different aspects or different names, who can say?

[OrbanSirgen]

You're not supposed to mix all the pantheons in one campaign.

Each race has its own pantheon... Hell, the people of Mulhorand, who worship the Pharaonic pantheon are descended from humans brought to Abeir-Toril from Earth... Their deities are explicitly mentioned as being the Egyptian pantheon!

[dupondavignon]

Why not? Our campaign world has TONS of Deities, every culture has its own pantheon, with some cultures being a melting pot and mixing pantheons together. Some Deities are likely universally known, but in a distant land thousands of miles away that no one has ever been to or even knows about maybe they have an entire new set of deities, maybe its even the same deities with different aspects or different names, who can say?
Strictly speaking, you can pretty much do whatever you want. Including ignoring the characteristics of the gods described in the manuals, since these rules are there for guidance.

Except that for my part, I see at least three reasons not to mix the pantheons, or even ignore those that do not understand the first described:
* Only this 1st pantheon is described as belonging to the world of Greyhawk, and thus to a campaign whose descriptions are found in the various books (for example, the manual of plans systematically speaks of the various gods present in each plan, and these gods only include the first pantheon (Boccob, Gruumsh, Vecna, etc.).
* These are the gods that correspond the best, and even the only ones that really represent them; the other pantheons have nothing to do with anything we find in D&D (Kurtulmak god of the kobolds, Corellon god of the elves, Moradins of the dwarves, etc.). But Zeus? Thor? Odin? Taïa? They represent absolutely nothing of this heroïc fantasy world. We can use them if we feel like it, but we will soon be very limited as to our possibilities to include them in this world, while being very difficult to ignore the omnipresence of the gods of the 1st pantheon in the various manuals.
* If individuals wonder about the power of this or that god (or something else), it is not to consider that we can give them the power (and attributions) that we want. Everyone is free to opt for this freedom (nothing prevents you from giving Yondalla a rank of level 25), but it will be a bit of a waste since we have specified characteristics that everyone can refer to. If you want an exotic campaign, that's up to you, but what players who want to have a specific "world" in mind will want is based on specific, universally recognized attributes.


Now, for the sport, I could look at the various power levels of all the gods presented, even if it is of little interest.

[dupondavignon]

Each race has its own pantheon... Hell, the people of Mulhorand, who worship the Pharaonic pantheon are descended from humans brought to Abeir-Toril from Earth... Their deities are explicitly mentioned as being the Egyptian pantheon!
That concerns campaigns of Forgottens Realms, while the book we're refering to concerns Greyhawk.

[dupondavignon]

In order to make a classification of order of power of the various gods, here are the features that characterize their power, with a decreasing value, allowing to establish this hierarchy (with in brackets the gods of the 1st pantheon possessing them):
1. Basic characteristics + possibility of increasing them (mainly by the creation of objects).
2. Rank
3. Salient Divine Abilities

Among these Salient Divine Abilities, in descending order of power :
a. Avatar (all* excepted Vecna)
b. Craft Artifact (Boccob, Moradin, Nerull, Pelor, Wy-Djaz)
c. Annihilating Strike (can be 1st depending on situation) (Corellon, Gruumsh, Hextor, Moradin, Nerull, Saint Cuthbert, Tiamat)
d. Alter Reality (all)
e. Divine (element) mastery (Earth, then Air being the best) (Moradin, Bahamut)
f. Divine Dodge (Garl, Kurtulmak, Olidammara, Yondalla)
g. Mass Life And Death (Pelor)
h. Life And Death (Wy-Djaz (no rest needed). Gruumsh, Heroneus, Nerull, Pelor)
i. Hand Of Death (Erythnul, Gruumsh, Hextor, Kurtulmak, Lolth, Nerull, Obad-Haï, Wy-Djaz)
j. Divine Creation (Boccob, Corellon, Garl, Moradin, Nerull, Pelor, Yondalla)
k. Life Drain (Nerull)
etc.

* All gods of the 1st pantheon whom characteritics are described in the manuel. For exemple, I've no idea concerning Maglubiyet (god of goblins) or Skerrit (god of centaurs), since they aren't described, or even mentionned in this manual.

You will note that the most important powers concern what allows the gods to confront other gods. Reason why the ineffective powers against them (the 1st one being "g. Mass Life And Death") are not ranked at the very first places, since they are mostly valid against weaker creatures.

[Khedrac]

That concerns campaigns of Forgottens Realms, while the book we're refering to concerns Greyhawk.

Greyhawk techncially has lots of pantheons too. The Suel pantheon and the Oeridian patheons are different pantheons (though I think there is overlap) but they are often presented mixed because they all come from Greyhawk. Then you get all the non-human pantheons (elvish, dwarf, orc, etc.).

[Jay R]

The most powerful being is some combination of the rules writers, the scenario writers, and the DM.

[Blackhawk748]

Obad Hai is Druid 20/Cleric 20. That alone puts him higher than what Nature God would normally be.

[dupondavignon]

Greyhawk techncially has lots of pantheons too. The Suel pantheon and the Oeridian patheons are different pantheons (though I think there is overlap) but they are often presented mixed because they all come from Greyhawk. Then you get all the non-human pantheons (elvish, dwarf, orc, etc.).

I think you're more speaking about sub-pantheons (categories included in the 1st presented pantheon).
Elvish "pantheon" is leaded by Corellon, Dwarf's one by Moradin, etc.
This sub-pantheon you're referring to concerns the attributions of gods, strictly speaking. Not the existence or non-existence of some gods. Zeus (which belongs to the Olympian pantheon) doesn't exist in D&D's pantheon (D&D pantheon being the name given to this pantheon, in the book itself). While all the categories you mentionned do.
Moreover, nothing prevents a god from belonging to several categories at the same time, as soon as he has several attributions. Thus, Boccob, neutral god of magic, can be worshipped both by neutral individuals and by spellcasters. That doesn't mean there are 2 different "pantheons" in the original sense, which would need 2 different Boccob.

[dupondavignon]

The most powerful being is some combination of the rules writers, the scenario writers, and the DM.

Everyone repeats this. That's not Marvel. I've never seen in the rules that the DM or any exterior person would have an avatar in the game. So, no, ingame, DM has 0 power, because he doesn't even exist.

[Jay R]

Everyone repeats this. That's not Marvel. I've never seen in the rules that the DM or any exterior person would have an avatar in the game. So, no, ingame, DM has 0 power, because he doesn't even exist.

Don’t be silly. The greatest powers of gods are creating the world and judging the actions of its inhabitants. They don’t need avatars for that.

[Buufreak]

Everyone repeats this. That's not Marvel. I've never seen in the rules that the DM or any exterior person would have an avatar in the game. So, no, ingame, DM has 0 power, because he doesn't even exist.

This is also assuming that the nearly endless list of original named characters that populate the game world that were created by the writers aren't, in fact, avatars of those writers. Because, let's face it, there is no power greater than deus ex machina and fiat.

[dupondavignon]

{Scrubbed}