Epic Spellcasting: Is it even worth it?

[Yogibear41]

Never played in an epic game, closest I have even gotten to it is level 13, but I am curious what people who have think about this:

Say I have a level 30 Paladin, who through a few tricks has a caster level = to his actual level not 1/2 his level and spellcraft as a class skill. Would spending 6 epic feats, and tons of gold to actually develop an epic level spell even be worth it? Or would you be better served just buying standard magic item upgrades such weapons/armor/strength bonuses etc, and spending those feats on other abilities?


What epic level spells have other people in the playground actually developed and used in games? Do you think it was worth it?
Looking for reasonable stuff people would use in an actual game (optimization is fine, and encouraged, but not really interested in pun-pun level stuff)

[DeTess]

The nice thing about epic spells is that, even without going massively cheesy on pumping spellcraft, you can get some pretty nice things you can't really get another way. One of the example spells is a mage armor spell that gives +24 AC for 24 hours, and you could easily make it even bigger.

One epic character I build had as gimmic the ability to teleport anywhwere, anytime, so I developoed an epic spell that made her immune to the effects of all of the anti-teleportation spells, which couldn't really be done any other way.

[AvatarVecna]

There are generally 3 problems with Epic Spellcasting:

1) The "create your own mechanic" feat is spellcasters only, further widening the existing gap.

2) If you're not dodging the costs through some method or other (mitigation to DC 0, somebody else developing the spell, finding stone tablets...whatever), then generally you can't afford anything cool enough to be worth using at your level, and anything cool isn't affordable. "360 XP per point of DC" alone makes just learning the spells a giant setback. Like, if you're Wizard 21, you maybe have +64 on the low end (Ranks +24, Int +10, skill item +30); a DC 65 spell would cost 585000 gp, 23400 XP, and takes 12 days to learn. That's setting you back 60% your WBL, and one level (probably losing you the snazzy feat that lets you cast the spell you just learned). Yes, you can make back the lost resources, but it's what they're competing with that's the problem: that's most of your gold, and you could've spent it on some really cool items now that you're epic.

3) If you are dodging costs, you've removed the half of this mechanic that was keeping it vaguely balanced, so now you can make whatever you want without worrying about the cost.


Is it worth it? I dunno, depends on if you're abusing it. If you're not abusing it, it depends on how low your standards are. I don't know with 100% certainty that there's no non-cheesy epic spell of DC 65 or lower that's better than 1/day Wish (555080 gp), so who knows maybe there is one. But in any case, if you're not cheating your way past the costs, then you're probably not optimizing super-hard and you're going for some kinda stylish effect that regular spells+metamagic can't really replicate, where you need Build-A-Spell Workshop to get what you want. Proper group rituals taking days to dethrone gods, perfect spell reflection for life, a blasting spell with a range/radius somewhere in between Fireball and Apocalypse From The Sky...stuff like that, that takes a whole lot more work to function without Epic Spellcasting.

[Biggus]

Say I have a level 30 Paladin, who through a few tricks has a caster level = to his actual level not 1/2 his level and spellcraft as a class skill. Would spending 6 epic feats, and tons of gold to actually develop an epic level spell even be worth it? Or would you be better served just buying standard magic item upgrades such weapons/armor/strength bonuses etc, and spending those feats on other abilities?


What tricks can get you caster level=class level for a Paladin? I know it's possible in PF but not in 3.5.

As to your question...if there's no bottom limit (or a very low bottom limit) to the Spellcraft DC, you can makes spells cheaply or free, and in that case it's definitely worth it. Long-duration (or even permanent) large boosts to ability scores are the first thing that comes to mind. This has the potential to overpower your character very quickly though, so expect a prudent DM to place some limits on it.

If there is a relatively high bottom limit on the DC, it doesn't really become usable until fairly high epic levels, although by the time a Paladin can take it they're already approaching those levels.

Since all epic spells have to be individually approved by the DM, the single biggest factor as to whether it's worth it is what they'll let you get away with. Probably the best approach is to discuss with them what they will and won't allow before you start taking any of the prerequisite feats.

[Yogibear41]

What tricks can get you caster level=class level for a Paladin? I know it's possible in PF but not in 3.5.



Divine Abjurant Champion is one (although less at epic levels since epic bab). There is also a feat in an Arcanis book (3rd party) that functions like practiced spellcaster but is based on your class level and spellcraft ranks, looks like it was made for multiclass casters such as a wizard/cleric, but basically if you take it on a half caster(paladin, ranger, hexblade, etc) and keep your spellcraft ranks high enough it will boost your caster level up to your level in the class or 1 less.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Cleric/prestige paladin would work. Just take the first three levels (nothing else is worth the CL loss) and you're done. You lose 1 CL (which can be made up for easily enough), then be done with it. Prestige paladin should grant you cleric + paladin spells, but I don't see it on d20srd.org's class entry.

[Yogibear41]

One epic character I build had as gimmic the ability to teleport anywhwere, anytime, so I developoed an epic spell that made her immune to the effects of all of the anti-teleportation spells, which couldn't really be done any other way.

The only way I know how to do that is the epic warlock feat? Is that what you used or was it something else?

[DeTess]

The only way I know how to do that is the epic warlock feat? Is that what you used or was it something else?

It was for a pretty crazy gestalt game, and I basically had a theurge worth of spell slots+ 4 levels in jaunter and shadowlord, so though I might not actually have been able to cast teleport at will, I had enough casts per day that I might as well have it, and I had lot of other short range teleports as well (including a persisted dimension jumper).

[ThanatosZero]

Divine Abjurant Champion is one (although less at epic levels since epic bab). There is also a feat in an Arcanis book (3rd party) that functions like practiced spellcaster but is based on your class level and spellcraft ranks, looks like it was made for multiclass casters such as a wizard/cleric, but basically if you take it on a half caster(paladin, ranger, hexblade, etc) and keep your spellcraft ranks high enough it will boost your caster level up to your level in the class or 1 less.

Do you know by chance which book it was?

[Yogibear41]

Do you know by chance which book it was?

Magic of Arcanis, the feat is Experienced Caster.

[SimonMoon6]

As to your question...if there's no bottom limit (or a very low bottom limit) to the Spellcraft DC, you can makes spells cheaply or free, and in that case it's definitely worth it. Long-duration (or even permanent) large boosts to ability scores are the first thing that comes to mind.

Better than a long duration is an instantaneous duration. And since "instantaneous" is considered to be the shortest possible duration (even though it's also the longest possible duration), combine any instantaneous effect with an effect with another duration (like a boost or a polymorph) and since you take the shortest of the two possible durations, your effect now lasts forever (instantaneous). I know that back in the day when The Epic Level Handbook had just come out, I was planning on creating an epic spell with an instantaneous polymorph self effect (throwing in some fire damage to the caster to get the instantaneous duration).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Better than a long duration is an instantaneous duration. And since "instantaneous" is considered to be the shortest possible duration (even though it's also the longest possible duration), combine any instantaneous effect with an effect with another duration (like a boost or a polymorph) and since you take the shortest of the two possible durations, your effect now lasts forever (instantaneous). I know that back in the day when The Epic Level Handbook had just come out, I was planning on creating an epic spell with an instantaneous polymorph self effect (throwing in some fire damage to the caster to get the instantaneous duration).Polymorph any object can already do Permanent, and if it's [Su] or from an [Ex] Device (from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood), it's as good as instantaneous. Even an AMF can't do much to it if it's cast by someone with the Initiate of Mystra feat, inside an AMF. Just break the CL cap via Reserves of Strength and boost your CL as high as you want it.

Of course, you could always do what Tippy does and craft yourself a new, immortal body out of obdurium laced with riverine and true mind switch yourself into it. Just make sure it's immune to the things that could harm it (such as disintegrate and rods of cancellation) and give it regeneration, and you're good. Make it as big or small as you want, in any shape you want. Even make it a Transformer if you want multiple forms. A shapeshifting, hiveminded swarm of nanobots that are capable of making more if some are destroyed, maybe?

[Thunder999]

Cleric/prestige paladin would work. Just take the first three levels (nothing else is worth the CL loss) and you're done. You lose 1 CL (which can be made up for easily enough), then be done with it. Prestige paladin should grant you cleric + paladin spells, but I don't see it on d20srd.org's class entry.

It's in the overview for the prestigious character classes section, under the subheading "Unique Spells"


Unique Spells
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available

So you only get spells that are unique to that class, which isn't quite as good, though it's more the prestige bard that suffers here (no getting access to stuff like cure spells).

[farothel]

I've never played epic before, but I've looked into it as at one point one of our campaigns could go that way. From what I saw the first 10 epic levels at least you won't be doing much, as the costs are too high to get the really nifty epic effects (and everything else can probably be redone by being creative with existing spells).

So is it even worth it? Maybe, depending on what you want to do. But the first epic levels it's going to be quite tough to beat the spell DC.

[Hiro Quester]

I played a Druid to epic levels, and took epic spell casting. Developed two epic spells that I could afford and did cool things (damage to caster was part of the mitigation).

i spent hours developing and describing the spells, negotiating with the DM to make their effects cool but not encounter-ending unbalanced.

i got to cast each exactly once. Game ended just before level 22.

And one failed to have the cool effect I was hoping it to have.

its worth it if it only costs one feat (epic spell casting), and you have nothing else cool to do with an epic feat (few others are potentially as cool), and if you enjoy the process of designing your own epic spell. Of if you will play well into epic levels and get plenty of chances to use them.

[Zancloufer]

Is it worth it? I dunno, depends on if you're abusing it. If you're not abusing it, it depends on how low your standards are. I don't know with 100% certainty that there's no non-cheesy epic spell of DC 65 or lower that's better than 1/day Wish (555080 gp), so who knows maybe there is one. But in any case, if you're not cheating your way past the costs, then you're probably not optimizing super-hard and you're going for some kinda stylish effect that regular spells+metamagic can't really replicate, where you need Build-A-Spell Workshop to get what you want. Proper group rituals taking days to dethrone gods, perfect spell reflection for life, a blasting spell with a range/radius somewhere in between Fireball and Apocalypse From The Sky...stuff like that, that takes a whole lot more work to function without Epic Spellcasting.

Seed Energy (19 DC) with Heal Seed (+25 DC) tacked on plus reduction to a standard action (+20 DC) is only 64 spell craft to make. It's essentially a 300ft range AoE SoD that target's for for undead. You could also invert it to make it a SoD vs living creatures. Also worth noting that it's almost impossible to be immune to as the Heal seed is considered a "Healing" effect even if it is killing you. Only issue is dodging energy resistance or people who don't die at negative HP.

All in all in the a nutshell though epic casting is either useless or a "I Win" button. Very few things outside of cheeking combos that are worth the cost of making.

[Endarire]

What are some handy methods to make Spellcraft DCs 0 or less while still getting the effects of level 9+ spells?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What are some handy methods to make Spellcraft DCs 0 or less while still getting the effects of level 9+ spells?Using planar binding shenanigans to get a bunch of natural spellcasters is nice. Of course, if you're a dvati (and both of your bodies have acorns of far travel so they both count as being on the same plane), and you store half of yourself on a fast-time demiplane with all of your spellcasting minions, you could have the other half adventuring. So if you need a custom-made epic spell for a situation at hand, just have the half of you that's on the other plane use your minions to mitigate ALL the DC, along with vastly speeding up the research and casting times.

Essentially, you can custom-design epic spells on the fly and create them as a free action, then cast them as needed.

If you're not dvati? Hivemind it up.

[Kalkra]

More than half of the seeds can have some effect at DC 0 when you increase the casting time to 10 minutes. For buffs, you can also decrease the range to personal, if you want. If you're willing to increase the DC a bit, (still in single digits) you can have buffs that last for two or more days, which makes them much more worth it. At epic levels you should have enough hitpoints to eat a good amount of backlash on your instantaneous spells. You can probably also afford to burn a few hundred xp per casting, considering how few casts you get per day.

If xp is really a problem for you, get a Thought Bottle and/or large amounts of distilled joy/liquid pain/souls. Or you can be a Dweomerkeeper and get an Epic spell as a (Su) ability.

Mummy Dust has an ad hoc -4 DC mitigating factor for having a 10,000 gp material component.

If gp is really a problem for you, cast Minor Creation, Wall of Salt/Iron, or some similar spell. Ideally, use spell traps and Fabricate. Or, if you can't do that for some reason, just boost your Craft check and use Epic Crafting rules to wave a ton of baskets. In addition to still being viable at Epic levels (linky (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?444060-The-Basket-Weaver-s-Handbook)), you can sell them. I don't feel like doing the math, but basically, Craft check = money. The higher your craft check, the more you make. For best results, gather up all the nearby commoners and other people who will probably never see a single gp in their lives and have them use Aid Another. Or just kill a dragon. A big ol' dragon.

All of this is without even mentioning Mythals (from Lost Empires of Faerun), which are easily the most broken thing Epic Spellcasting has to offer. Spend 100 days casting it and burn some xp (and gp, if you can), give it a capstone and make it corruptible and anchored, and make all the spells available in a limited area, and make it all spell trigger (UMD it), and you can get some pretty powerful stuff and still have it be DC 0. If you're worried, you could get rid of either the capstone or the long casting time. And note that if you want it last forever, the DC for a Mythal maintenance spell is half the DC of the Mythal (still 0).

Or just make an Ice Assassin of yourself, and have him spend all the xp, suffer all the backlash, and in the case of a Mythal, die. You can contribute a 9th-level slot.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

<snip> wall of salt </snip>This is the best option, because it's literally a spell that makes money. Salt is specifically listed in the PHB as a direct alternative to money and can be spent as such. Salt is also the exact value as silver by weight, so you might as well call it the wall of silver pieces spell.

[Hiro Quester]

I created an epic druid spell I called "Seeds of Destruction" that took a handful of seeds, blew them into the wind to settle in the cracks of a 40x40 ft stone structure (e.g. castle, wall), and then instantly grew them into vines and trees that would grow to destroy the wall and replace it with a grove of trees and shrubs and vine-covered rubble; carrying any creatures in the area either harmlessly into the branches of a tree or doing 8d6 bludgeoning damage from falling stone.

The spell craft DC for what I wanted to do was 60s, from using the seeds conjure (DC 21) and fortify (DC 17+2+2 to age trees to three years old), and reducing casting time to one round (DC18).

I reduced it by caster taking 20d6 damage (Fully healed I could take that, being a 20th level gnome druid with high CON), which reduces the DC by 20.

The other trick I used was sacrificing a 3rd level prepared spell (Crumble) for -5 DC and a 7th level prepared spell (Animate Plants) for another -13 DC.

That left a DC 22 spell craft check, which my 21 level druid could tap easily.

Edit: it also cost 198000 gp. That was a minor expense (the party had earned more than that from the culmination of the part if the adventure that got us to epic levels, and my druid had simple needs for equipment, all of which were fulfilled))

[Biggus]

What are some handy methods to make Spellcraft DCs 0 or less while still getting the effects of level 9+ spells?

The two main ways are either to do the maximum backlash damage then immediately get healed (one CL 15 Heal spell undoes 42d6 backlash damage on average, which is conveniently the maximum amount a 21st-level caster can take) or have a bunch of low-level casters contribute a spell-slot (either via Epic Leadership, or if you're the head of Wizard guild, high priest of a religion etc). Increasing casting time also helps.

The Fortify seed for example you can get very good results from:

Base DC17, base duration 20hrs, +1 enhancement bonus to an ability score.

Increase bonus by 19, +38 spellcraft SC.

Increase duration by 60hrs, +6 Spellcraft SC.

Total DC 17+38+6=61

Increase casting time by 10 minutes, -20 DC.

Take 41d6 backlash damage, -41DC.

Total -61DC.

Final DC 0, casting time 11 minutes. Effect +20 to one ability score, duration 80hrs.

Only needs to be cast once every 3 days, so if you have a ready source of healing (such as being able to cast the Heal spell yourself, or a friend you doesn't mind casting it on you) you can make versions for your Con and Dex as well as your casting stat (or versions for other party members' prime ability) and still only use one epic spell slot per day.

If the party healer objects to casting Heal on you for this purpose, buy them a Pearl of Power, which will cost 36,000GP if they use the Cleric spell list, or 49,000GP if Druid, and as it can be used daily will do for all 3 spells. This means the spell isn't totally free obviously, but it's still a bargain by Epic Spellcasting standards.

As well as ability scores, you can give yourself a +20 bonus to natural armor or any one saving throw in exactly the same way.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The best way to mitigate backlash damage is to simply be immune to death from hp damage. Delay death + beastland ferocity FTW. Definitely a good pair of spells to research, if necessary.

Or just make yourself immune to damage, which is entirely possible. Unless there's a caveat to epic spellcasting that makes it not work.

[tyckspoon]

The two main ways are either to do the maximum backlash damage then immediately get healed (one CL 15 Heal spell undoes 42d6 backlash damage on average, which is conveniently the maximum amount a 21st-level caster can take) or have a bunch of low-level casters contribute a spell-slot (either via Epic Leadership, or if you're the head of Wizard guild, high priest of a religion etc). Increasing casting time also helps.

The Fortify seed for example you can get very good results from:

Base DC17, base duration 20hrs, +1 enhancement bonus to an ability score.

Increase bonus by 19, +38 spellcraft SC.

Increase duration by 60hrs, +6 Spellcraft SC.

Total DC 17+38+6=61

Increase casting time by 10 minutes, -20 DC.

Take 41d6 backlash damage, -41DC.

Total -61DC.

Final DC 0, casting time 11 minutes. Effect +20 to one ability score, duration 80hrs.

Only needs to be cast once every 3 days, so if you have a ready source of healing (such as being able to cast the Heal spell yourself, or a friend you doesn't mind casting it on you) you can make versions for your Con and Dex as well as your casting stat (or versions for other party members' prime ability) and still only use one epic spell slot per day.

If the party healer objects to casting Heal on you for this purpose, buy them a Pearl of Power, which will cost 36,000GP if they use the Cleric spell list, or 49,000GP if Druid, and as it can be used daily will do for all 3 spells. This means the spell isn't totally free obviously, but it's still a bargain by Epic Spellcasting standards.

As well as ability scores, you can give yourself a +20 bonus to natural armor or any one saving throw in exactly the same way.

Often-overlooked aspect of Backlash mitigation: For spells with a duration, the Backlash repeats every round of the spell's duration. Unless you are incapable of being killed by HP damage, this means backlash mitigation on a long-duration buff is mostly a really complicated method of killing yourself. Backlash also specifies that you cannot 'avoid or be immune to the damage' to have it work - you have to find one of the methods that lets you suffer it and just not care about the damage. Having a permanent Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity ( + optional Masochism effect to buff yourself based on the several hundred HP you're inflicting yourself each round) will do it, but leaves you with a huge target/vulnerability if somebody comes up with a way to end either effect.

Edit: My personal recommendation for self-only mitigation is to use either time + XP cost (prioritize acquiring a Rod of Excellent Magic to sub for this!) or use Summon Monster spells for spellcasting monsters to contribute slots for you. Couatls from SumMonster 9 can contribute 4th level slots, and Lillends from SumMonster 8 can give 2nd level. Burn all your high level slots for those and you can get some ritual/additional caster mitigation without diving into the deep end of Infinite Planar Binding or having hundreds of low-level acolytes from Leadership cheese.

[AvatarVecna]

In addition to healing or immunity to damage/dying from damage, you could also just set up some easy-rezzing. It's a bit different from just healing the damage - in particular, the difference will be appreciated for those casting long-duration spells with backlash damage. Such as "Origin Of Species", a permanent-duration spell with backlash damage. Permanent is stupid not just because Backlash Damage forever, but also because it means the effect can be dispelled (I'm pretty sure, anyway).

This would be, incidentally, a really fun way to absolutely screw with an epic party - create some ungodly powerful creature that can't be buffed for whatever reason, and the secret to defeating them is to dispel them even though they don't have any effects or items to dispel.

[StevenC21]

Or just use Hide Life.

[Biggus]

Often-overlooked aspect of Backlash mitigation: For spells with a duration, the Backlash repeats every round of the spell's duration. Unless you are incapable of being killed by HP damage, this means backlash mitigation on a long-duration buff is mostly a really complicated method of killing yourself.

I'd forgotten about that, it's been a while since I last looked at Epic Spellcasting, thank you. Epic Leadership it is then...

[Kalkra]

Troll-Blooded + Glory of the Martyr also works for immunity to damage. Also, if there are any level 42+ spellcasters around, or if you are one yourself, Simulacrum can make a creature capable of casting Epic spells just like Ice Assassin, without the need to worry about it killing you, or even the need to argue with your GM about whether or not you need to worry about it killing you.

Also, just to quibble, I think that most people read the rules such that you can only increase the casting time of an Epic spell up to 10 minutes, not increase it by 10 minutes, so you could only get -18 DC out of that. You can change it from touch to personal, though.

[Biggus]

Troll-Blooded + Glory of the Martyr also works for immunity to damage. Also, if there are any level 42+ spellcasters around, or if you are one yourself, Simulacrum can make a creature capable of casting Epic spells just like Ice Assassin, without the need to worry about it killing you, or even the need to argue with your GM about whether or not you need to worry about it killing you.

Also, just to quibble, I think that most people read the rules such that you can only increase the casting time of an Epic spell up to 10 minutes, not increase it by 10 minutes, so you could only get -18 DC out of that. You can change it from touch to personal, though.

Note 2 under the mitigating factors table (right under the note about backlash damage being per round that I forgot about):

"When increasing the casting time of a spell in order to reduce the Spellcraft DC, a character must first “use up” the maximum of 10 minutes (for a total DC modifier of -20)"

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm

EDIT: it's confirmed that this is the intended meaning by the casting time of some of the pre-made epic spells, such as Raise Island (65 days 11 minutes) and Origin of Species: Achaierai (100 days 11 minutes).

[Kalkra]

Note 2 under the mitigating factors table (right under the note about backlash damage being per round that I forgot about):

"When increasing the casting time of a spell in order to reduce the Spellcraft DC, a character must first “use up” the maximum of 10 minutes (for a total DC modifier of -20)"

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm

EDIT: it's confirmed that this is the intended meaning by the casting time of some of the pre-made epic spells, such as Raise Island (65 days 11 minutes) and Origin of Species: Achaierai (100 days 11 minutes).

I stand happily corrected.

[sorcererlover]

With the cost reducers making epic spells cost 0 Epic Spellcasting is essentially free stuff.

One thing I like to do is max out backlash damage and 100 day casting time to make an instantaneous spell that permanently summons a creature of my choice. So essentially my spellcaster becomes a mobile epic creature mass production facility that spits out an epic creature every 100 days.

Instantaneous duration Transformation Seed spell is a race change without LA.

Stuff like that.