Lawful Good Heaven too good a bait for Evil?

[Menarker]

The OOTS version of Lawful Good Heaven as it is depicted is wonderful... too wonderful for its own good.

There was a couple of factors that I thought... I wonder if I could be validated for any of my "theories". Mind you, I have practically no experience with actual D&D games.

1: What advantages could "real life" actually have?
At the lower levels of heaven, you have your basic needs provided, usually the needs that generally can only be provided with "fortune". A guy, no matter how handsome or courteous he is, won't get a girl if she doesn't let him. (Assuming he doesn't try anything criminal to force it.) A poor servant or a person of ignoble birth may be shunted from every dream from those higher up. But if the heaven shown provides these needs and fulfill them like stifling hunger or quenching THIRST without removing the experience... For that matter, why would the gods of OTTS make "real life" a life where one can die and such. Why not just forgo the process and make heaven the default... UNLESS the only purpose of living (according to the gods who remade the world) was to define who is sent to which afterlife, by observing demostrated behavior.


2: Why would anyone choose any other form of life instead of it, if they knew about it?
Xykon chose his life to be one of power and excitement... but he certainly didn't sign up to never enjoy coffee again. Redcloak is likely prepared to be a matyr for his people, assuming theories of trying to start another remaking of the planet so the Dark God can make it better for Goblins. If Xkyon knew he could have a "coffee rich environment" with various other desires serviced, think he would have thought twice about being a Lich? Redcloak would likely jump at the chance to unite with his slain family and friends in peace with basic needs fulfilled. Sure beats dying and hoping everything works for the better...


3: If anyone could gain the power or authority to alter how heaven operates, wouldn't its lure be too tempting?
Now, within my line of thinking within this theory, there are two sides to this point... Xykon stated he wants to rule the world. But say if he was to learn about the paradise that Lawful Good Heaven is, would he make his ambitions bigger to include heaven? What about Redcloak?
I propose the idea depending on whether Xykon's lichdom can ever be reversed, or senses be returned. (Like Xykon being able to taste coffee without requiring the appropriate biology.) Also propose that Xykon/Redcloak gain enough power with the power of the gates or Snarl that they could disrupt/combat the powers who rule the Heavens and thus change all policies to fit them.

Redcloak will likely ensure that heaven will be open to all beings he see fit, including those who were previously slated to be Evil. Would also alter the defination of what is actually good/evil, so many adventurers/paladins who killed goblins and other such creatures for sport or unquantified acts would be blocked.

Xykon would either choose to rule over Heaven if he could experience coffee and other such pleasures again. (He IS that extreme. He'll just have to desanctify the place.) Otherwise, he could very well choose to rule the earthly plane while Redcloak gets his own jurisdiction. Also, Ressurection and other life revival spells would become subjected to their powers, making it a tool for those who serve evil.

Plus, I'm certain that many evil beings (especially from other planes) would like to see the sanctified plane to rewarding evil/punishing good.


Something like Mind Reading, Scrying, or something for the villians...

It would be an ultimate persecution against Good. A modified heaven and a tyrant ruling the planet, there is no peace for the living or the dead. A place where survival is truely for the fittest and one only has one life.


My inspired thought for the night. Was late, so I hope I didn't screw up on anything.

[pjackson]

3: If anyone could gain the power or authority to alter how heaven operates, wouldn't its lure be too tempting?
Now, within my line of thinking within this theory, there are two sides to this point... Xykon stated he wants to rule the world. But say if he was to learn about the paradise that Lawful Good Heaven is, would he make his ambitions bigger to include heaven? What about Redcloak?


Xykon is headed for the Abyss not Celestia.
The price for him to go to Celestia - change his personality completely - is far too great for him to consider.
He would not want to meet the spirits of his family anyway, going by how he treated them in SoD.

It is evil priests and wizards who generally become liches, because they know how horrible the afterlife will be for them, so they try to postpone it forever.

Recloak may hope that he will enjoy a relatively favourable position in Hell as a high ranking servant to his god.

[pjackson]

: If anyone could gain the power or authority to alter how heaven operates, wouldn't its lure be too tempting?


But to do that you would have to defeat it's current rulers on their home ground admidst a horde of their supporters and allies.
Xykon is strong, but Soon was able to beat him, and there are more powerful beings that Soon in Celestia.

[Dectilon]

The different afterlife planes are run by their respective alignment gods, right? The followers of evil gods would probably not follow the path of evil if they knew that they would have eternal torment at the end of their lives, so what says the CE-realm isn't fluffy clouds too, only evil? : )

[lonewolf23k]

Oh, I think it's common knowledge that the Evil afterlife is a realm where Evil souls get ground into sausage or something similar. The main thing about Evil characters is that they either think they can avoid that fate entirely (Like Undead Liches), or they think they've got an "angle" that'll let them enjoy some privileges while in Hell, or even that they don't care at all...

[Dervag]

Or they're just convinced that they are bad, bad people who are going to Hell; it's not as if there aren't people like that in the real world.

[nooneatall]

Are you guys kidding? Going to the various hellish afterlives is GREAT for an evil character!

No limitations, take what you want, do what you want, force yourself on anyone who bothers you - what's not to love. Of course, you have to actually be able to back up your demands with force, but that's evil's all about. The strong get what they want and the weak, ah, don't.

[sihnfahl]

Xykon is headed for the Abyss not Celestia.

Actually, Xykon is probably headed for Acheron. He's LE, not CE.


Recloak may hope that he will enjoy a relatively favourable position in Hell as a high ranking servant to his god.
Acheron as well. LE.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding Clerics, I don't know much about D&D afterlifes, but don't most evil gods tend to reward their most loyal followers (including non-Clerics) by giving them a place in their own realms which will help them to avoid being generally abused by older demons or devils? Also, I thought Xykon came across as more Chaotic Evil due to his lack of interest in any sort of planning, as well as the fact that he tends to kill indescriminately.

[Green Bean]

Actually, Xykon is probably headed for Acheron. He's LE, not CE.

Is there any evidence of this? The Xykon we've seen in the strip doesn't seem to display that much in the way of planning, or willingness to keep his word.

[Kioran]

Actually, Xykon is probably headed for Acheron. He's LE, not CE.

Acheron as well. LE.

You are mistaken: There are quite a lot of planes, and Acheron is LLE, meaning big on Lawful, small on evil. If you are more Evil than lawful you go to Baator or Gehenna. Acheron is only perpetual WW1. Unpleasant, but there´s worse. Xykon definitely deserves worse.......

[Crimson Avenger]

Just one thing to remember in a D&D cosmology...There is no one plane where all LG characters go, and no one plane where all CE characters go. There are planes with dominant features like Good and Evil, but only the planes with actual gods on them house souls after death. (Hence the term afterlife) When you die, you go to your respective god's plane of existence. Just look at Roy's little brother. He's certainly not LG, no child is, but there he is in Roy's afterlife, probably because of his worship of the same deity as Roy, his father, his father's father, ect. ad naseum.

[sun_tzu]

Actually, Xykon is probably headed for Acheron. He's LE, not CE.
Whwhwhaaat?
How the Abyss is Xykon not CE?

[dutch508]

They call it heaven for a reason you know.

[Charles Phipps]

For that matter, why would the gods of OTTS make "real life" a life where one can die and such. Why not just forgo the process and make heaven the default... UNLESS the only purpose of living (according to the gods who remade the world) was to define who is sent to which afterlife, by observing demostrated behavior.

This is pretty much the default assumption of religious thought in D&D, based on pretty most Heaven beneficial real world religions (I won't name any names). Specifically, that life on Earth is a preparation for immortal life in the next.


Xykon chose his life to be one of power and excitement... but he certainly didn't sign up to never enjoy coffee again. Redcloak is likely prepared to be a matyr for his people, assuming theories of trying to start another remaking of the planet so the Dark God can make it better for Goblins. If Xkyon knew he could have a "coffee rich environment" with various other desires serviced, think he would have thought twice about being a Lich?

In the real world, we have plenty of people who choose immediate gratification over long term rewards without any religious justification whatsoever. For Xykon (and Belkar for that matter), they would scoff at the many benefits of Celestia.

Belkar would loathe....

A. The free Sex because they certainly think they could get it anyway (okay, that's stretching it but it takes all the fun out of the case)
B. the Free Kills (that would ruin the fun of the hunt)
C. The fact that he has to be nice to people

Xykon lost his power to get coffee but if he really wanted to, the Sorcerer could torture a wizard to make the illusionary taste of coffee in every cup or just take the memories out of the guy with ESP.

His Heaven has become murder.


Now, within my line of thinking within this theory, there are two sides to this point... Xykon stated he wants to rule the world. But say if he was to learn about the paradise that Lawful Good Heaven is, would he make his ambitions bigger to include heaven? What about Redcloak?

Xykon wants to rule creation, Heaven included, with the Snarl. Redcloak wants to DESTROY it.

As soon as Redcloak saw the monsters to slay up there, illusions or not, he'd want to kill every single human being soul forever. The Snarl DESTROYS SOULS and that's infinitely worse than murder.

Yes, including baby Eric.

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

Whwhwhaaat?
How the Abyss is Xykon not CE?

Yeah, i was pretty certain he was the poster-boy of CE.

[PaladinFreak]

Seconded.

Xykon's general random killing, lack of planning, and bizarre actions all scream CE to me.

[sihnfahl]

Whwhwhaaat? How the Abyss is Xykon not CE?
Think about it.

Xykon has no intention of killing everything and everyone in the world (Belkar, THE poster boy for CE, is a little ball of homicidal rage who sees pretty much everyone as a little chunk of XP). He'd far prefer to rule it, with a strict heirarchy (him at top, Redcloak below, all the minions in the middle, with everyone else their footstools).

He actually has contracts with mercenaries rather than cow them into serving him. When they try to go against the word of the contract, he ensures their obedience in the most expeditious means possible for an evil being (that is, kill them, then raise them as undead).

Rather than cow the hobgoblins into submission and force them to follow him, he has Redcloak go through the rituals to become a honorary member, so as to become eligible to become their leader; through Redcloak, he'd control the hobgoblins. (Course, when Redcloak realizes the rules allow him to jump to the top, Redcloak uses that rule to great effect).

He has a hiring policy; paperwork, payroll forms, and a little 'test' to see if they cut the mustard, rather than "Okay, you want in? If you take out a minion, you can have their spot..."

And... h_v, lack of planning on certain things doesn't mean he's not lawful. It just means he's not INTERESTED in that stuff. (He sure does have a plan for what he does when he gets control of a gate, though...)

[Charles Phipps]

quote]Xykon has no intention of killing everything and everyone in the world (Belkar, THE poster boy for CE, is a little ball of homicidal rage who sees pretty much everyone as a little chunk of XP). He'd far prefer to rule it, with a strict heirarchy (him at top, Redcloak below, all the minions in the middle, with everyone else their footstools).[/quote]

Xyrkon's hierarchy is not especially strict.

There's Xyrkon
I
I
I
Everybody else


He actually has contracts with mercenaries rather than cow them into serving him. When they try to go against the word of the contract, he ensures their obedience in the most expeditious means possible for an evil being (that is, kill them, then raise them as undead).

Which means the contracts mean nothing.


Rather than cow the hobgoblins into submission and force them to follow him, he has Redcloak go through the rituals to become a honorary member, so as to become eligible to become their leader; through Redcloak, he'd control the hobgoblins. (Course, when Redcloak realizes the rules allow him to jump to the top, Redcloak uses that rule to great effect).

You have a point here but I'm fairly sure that Xyrkon would force them into submission if he wasn't hanging around Redcloak's neck at the time.

But yeah, no one is ABSOLUTELY an EXEMPLAR of their alignment at all times. Xyrkon is Chaotic Evil in the manner of the Joker but he's got definite plans for world domination ala Lex luthor.

Maybe he could be the poster boy for Chaotic Neutral Evil.

;-)

[Porthos]

Belkar: Chaotic Stupid (Evil Version).
Xykon: Chaotic Smart (Evil Version).

Xykon may hand out contracts, but they mean nothing to him. He doesn't give a whit about planning, and is liable to change his entire strategy on a whim. If he gets bored, he lashes out and makes the world interesting. Xykon has no structure in his life, beyond satisfing his desires.

Xykon sort of has a goal: Smash the World Until I Rule it.

That's not the hallmark of a Lawful mindset. :smallwink:

Now can Xykon react with some sort of foresight? Sure, if he thinks it is important enough to his survival/Smashing The World goal. But he's just as likely to do something else if he thinks it will work.

Or to put it another way:

Xykon: Chaotic Evil.
Redcloak: Lawful Evil.

[....]

Xykon cast overland flight and symbol of insanity on a super-bouncy ball.

I'm not saying he's lawful...but the guy has some foresight.

Personally I think he's neutral evil. He's evil to be evil, and to help himself. He dosn't care if he accomplishes his goals with schemes and contracts, or with fire and lightning, just as long as he gets what he wants.

[Porthos]

I'm not saying he's lawful...but the guy has some foresight.

Chaotic people can have some foresight, you know.

Or to put it another way: All Sladd are Chaotic, but not all Chaotic People are like Sladd. :smallsmile:

It's just that a Chaotic person is more likely to abandon a plan if something changes (like, say a mood swing). :smalltongue:


Personally I think he's neutral evil. He's evil to be evil, and to help himself. He dosn't care if he accomplishes his goals with schemes and contracts, or with fire and lightning, just as long as he gets what he wants.

Errrr. No. :smallsmile:

Planning things bores Xykon. We've seen that time and time again. And a bored Xykon is a dangerous Xykon. :smallwink:

Xykon usually will fly by the seat of his pants because that's how he normally thinks. But if he thinks it will matter, he can plan a day or two in advance. And even when he has a plan, he'll change it if something comes his way. After all, he was supposed to wait until Redcloak showed up before attacking the Throne Room. But he said, "screw it, I'm bored," and went in guns blazing.

Poor Impulse Control is a tell tale sign of being Chaotic, after all. :smallamused:

Anyway, just like Elan was able to construct a (for him) coherent couple of plans to get back to Haley. And I don't think anybody is going to accuse Elan of being Neutral Good. :smallamused:

So to sum up, Choatic Does Not Equal Gibbering Unable-To-Plan-Five-Seconds-In-Advance Insane. But it does equal Much More Likely Than Not To Throw Out A Plan Because Of <Insert Factor Here>.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And I'd just like to bring up another point here. I think we would all agree that there are more than nine personality types running around in the human psyche. Yet there are only nine alignements in DnD. So when someone says, Character X is CE and Character Y acts somewhat differently than Character X, therefore Character Y cannot be CE doesn't compute. :smallsmile:

Roy, Hinjo, and Miko all were Lawful Good, yet each of those people had radically different personalities and motivations. Xykon, Belkar, and Thog are all Chaotic Evil, and they too all have radically different personalities and motivations. It just goes with the territory. :smallsmile:

[EvilJames]

I could see Xykon being Neutral evil, (i'm not saying I think he is But a a case could be made) Personally I think he is chaotic Evil. He kills allies on a whim Lawful evil generally will only kill allies if it furthers there goals.
linky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)
But you will not that he doesn't tkae just out right destroying the world due to boredom off the table either.

[....]

I could see Xykon being Neutral evil, (i'm not saying I think he is But a a case could be made) Personally I think he is chaotic Evil. He kills allies on a whim Lawful evil generally will only kill allies if it furthers there goals.
linky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)
But you will not that he doesn't tkae just out right destroying the world due to boredom off the table either.

Is the link showing him killing an ally on a whim?

Because that was really not a bad move, since the dragon was useless.

I'm not saying he dosn't kill people out of boredome, just that there are better examples.

[Porthos]

I'm not saying he dosn't kill people out of boredome, just that there are better examples.

I can't link to it because it was bonus material in the books, but Xykon was sending goblins into Dorukan's Gate and watching them get fried because he was bored. :smallsmile:

And similarly, I don't know if you've read Start of Darkness or not, but SoD is chock full of Xykon acting Chaotic.

In fact, acting Chaotic is the whole reason he left Helldeathdoomfire Volcano.

Never mind the amount of thought he gave to becoming undead. :smalltongue:

[WhitemageofDOOM]

Just one thing to remember in a D&D cosmology...There is no one plane where all LG characters go, and no one plane where all CE characters go. There are planes with dominant features like Good and Evil, but only the planes with actual gods on them house souls after death. (Hence the term afterlife) When you die, you go to your respective god's plane of existence.

Completely incorrect, you don't read much D&D do you?
You go to the plane of your alignment. No ifs ands or buts, if your god is that alignment you go to his realm. But alignment trumps deity. Of course no god wants someone not perfectly in agreement with him anyways. After all, they will never merge with the deity until they are.


Just look at Roy's little brother. He's certainly not LG, no child is

Why not? Everything in D&D has an alignment by definition, roy's brother was raised among lawful good people and was thus taught lawful good values and could act on them to the extent he was able.
Then theres that instinct thing that no matter what happens makes up a large extent of who you are. Theres a reason most elves are chaotic good, elves have chaotic good instincts. Theres a reason humans inevitably build huge hive cities, humans instincts lead us smack onto LN.


but there he is in Roy's afterlife, probably because of his worship of the same deity as Roy, his father, his father's father, ect. ad naseum.

Roy doesn't seem to have a patron deity.
Also this directly contradicts your statement that roy's little brother isn't lawful good, if he can worship a deity he most definitly can be LG.

[Crimson Avenger]

Completely incorrect, you don't read much D&D do you?

Really??

Acctually, I've been playing for a very long time. In the D&D cosmology, the gods don't require that you have the same alignment as they do, just close. You go to a plane that is in accordance with your alignment, but not the plane with your alignment. You go wherever your deity lives. Your chosen deity has a range of alignments that worship him/her/it. The only PC's that would go strictly to the plane of their alignment would be those that specifically chose to have no patron deity.

Why would a god like St. Cuthbert for example, only want worshipers that were the same alignment as himself (LN). He's the god of retribution. He only cares about the lawful aspect of alignment, that's why you can be either LG or LE and still have St Cuthbert grant you spells in the morning as a cleric. The PHB specifically says a cleric must be within ONE step of his chosen patron's alignment. This is the same reason that not every good god can support paladins. Sometimes the alignment gets in the way.

Children are self-serving, free spirited, and short sighted creatures that change their plans and opinions on a whim. Harldy lawful, and thats why we love them.

As far as Roy having a patron deity....come on. Rich can't just go and give him one, it would complicate the strip to much cause two idiots like us would argue over wether he was folling the tenets of his faith closely enough to actually be a worshiper of ( insert favorite deity here...)

[sun_tzu]

Children are self-serving, free spirited, and short sighted creatures that change their plans and opinions on a whim. Harldy lawful, and thats why we love them.
Not all children.
I was pretty lawful as a kid. Heck, when I was teenager, my father was a bit miffed by my lack of teenage rebellion.

[Crimson Avenger]

I wasn't a real teen rebel either, but I have five older brothers and sister. Not a lot to rebel against anymore. But certainly not lawful, I followed the rules, but not for the sake of the rules. It's hard to be LG.

[JaxGaret]

Is the link showing him killing an ally on a whim?

Because that was really not a bad move, since the dragon was useless.

I'm not saying he dosn't kill people out of boredome, just that there are better examples.

No, I believe that the link was about Xykon's speech in the first few panels, where he states that he'll only destroy the world if he gets really, REALLY bored.

For what it's worth, Xykon does have both Lawful and Chaotic traits, but I think the Chaotic far outweighs the Lawful. I can possibly see him as Neutral Evil. But definitely not LE.

[Porthos]

I'll believe that Xykon is Neutral Evil when people can show me his "Lawful" traits/acts that aren't also shared by Belkar.

Belkar planned for a long time on how to get Miko to fall.
Belkar is working on getting his Mark of Justice removed.
Belkar was able to commit to a plan to get Roy's body back.

These are all so called "Lawful" traits. Planning, sticktooitiveness, and commitment.

The only reason that Belkar isn't handing out (worthless) "employment contracts" is that he isn't in charge.

Belkar is Chaotic Evil, and so is Xykon. We don't have to make this more complicated than it already is. :smallsmile:

[draca]

To most living people in any world, the afterlife is more of a fuzzy maybe concept. You could tell someone that they should be lawful good, because when they die they’ll go to Celestia and have everything they ever wanted. That person may laugh in your face and say that the lawful good clerics lie to try to control you. Despite all evidence they might still just not believe. Not to mention the evil perspective of, “why wait till I’m dead to have everything I want when I can take it right now?”

Second, deities in D&D can take any worshippers soul to them, even if their alignment is radically different. The alignment restrictions in the books are for clerics. Not every follower of a god is a cleric. Worshiper alignments are the average or the ideal alignment you would follow (something to shoot for) when worshiping that god. Bahamut is not going to descend from the sky and say, “Sorry Timmy, but the book says your alignment has to be within one step of lawful good to worship me… and you’re a berserker. See the problem here? So, if you could just stop thinking I’m so darn cool and find someone else to fixate on like Thor or something, I’d be much obliged.” It’s much more likely for someone who’s alignment matches to be a worshiper of a deity, but there are many factors like culture and how you were raised that could create an exception.

To use an old D&D example from a novel: Rasitlin being taken to Paladine’s realm after death. Paladine was the only deity he came close to worshiping, and I think he just really liked him from having met him as Fizban. More likely was that the god liked him and acted out of his own mercy, weather or not Raistlin was pious enough or counted himself as a worshiper. He gave a very evil person who acted for the greater good access to heaven. Gods can do that. They shape the planes to their will – hence the reason they have their own realms on them.

[Crimson Avenger]

"....."

What draca said


In Spades

[WrstDmEvr]

Maybe the Abyss is Celestia for Xykon. As in, they get to do whatever they want that's evil, whereas in Celestia you can do whatever you want that's good.

[geekyhedgehog]

And Evil creatures look forwards to rocky cliffs the same way Good characters look forwards to white clouds

[KillianHawkeye]

Really?


Why would a god like St. Cuthbert for example, only want worshipers that were the same alignment as himself (LN). He's the god of retribution. He only cares about the lawful aspect of alignment, that's why you can be either LG or LE and still have St Cuthbert grant you spells in the morning as a cleric. The PHB specifically says a cleric must be within ONE step of his chosen patron's alignment. This is the same reason that not every good god can support paladins. Sometimes the alignment gets in the way.

Sorry to break it to you, but St. Cuthbert specifically disallows Evil clerics, despite being LN.