Let's Talk About Frontline Clerics/Optimization Help

[KOLE]

Hey guys! Haven't posted for a while. My last post was an update on my personal life where I asked for help wrapping up a campaign as I was taking a year off to get ready to get married. I received a ton of support and nice wishes- so I thought you deserved an update. The campaign wrap up went well- and the wedding prep is going well. I am making progress towards the ring and the proposal will happen under PERFECT circumstances this July! One of our favorite singers happens to be playing our home town- this musician sings "our song". It looks like I'll be able to get back stage to propose when he plays our song. I'm very excited and it's coming along great.

Since I have taken time off from playing- I've had a lot of time to think up my next character, and I've got a good one in mind next time around. Problem is, I don't know how viable it is, but that's okay as I still won't be playing for a while, so I have time to tweak the concept!

Just preemptively putting this out there: I know a lot of the problems I present here could be solved by taking Paladin, but I don't want to do that. Reason 1: Charisma as a casting stat does not work for this character. I plan on high wisdom, not great people skills. I know it's a minor rub, but it's important to me. I suppose I could ask to use Wisdom as my casting stat, and in truth that's tempting, and my DM might even go for it, and I also know Pallys don't need a great casting stat since they mostly buff and smite, but that leads to Problem 2: EVERY table I've played with has had a Pally in the party, no joke. They are well liked by my tables, and with good reason! I'm not dissing the class. It's a great class, and I'm sure I'll try one at some point. But I'm honestly a little burnt out on them. I've seen all their tricks several times over, and I feel I would get bored quickly. In contrast, Clerics are NOT popular. I've only seen them in two one shots, both times played by very new players who did not know what they were doing. I'd like to explore them since I've not really seen them in play unlike most other classes.
I wonder how actually viable Clerics are at being on the frontline. I'm not suggesting they be the solo tank for a group, of course, but I mean as a second or third frontliner in a party. My primary concern is the d8 hit dice. Most of my play time has been a Barbarian and a Ranger: the Barb did great on the front line and the Ranger did okay in the short term. Both had good con scores.

My most played class has definitely been Rogue; and in spite of Uncanny Dodge and Cunning Action, I found those hit points pretty sparse to work with. Since a Cleric shares that hit die, how long can they really stay in the fray, even with heavy armor and shield?

I want this character to be the bold leader of the group, calling upon the War Goddess as they bravely show their resilience in the face of danger. But if they're constantly face planting next to the other front liners, this won't really hold that well. So I'd really like to hear your personal experience and suggestions on a Cleric being on the front.

My solution at the moment involves multiclassing, but I'd like advice. I originally didn't plan on multiclassing this character as I wanted primarily to explore the Cleric class; however, I decided that Fighting Style: Protection was FAR too thematic for this character, as they are styled as a Hoplite. Using your shield to protect your allies is 100% in line with this character, so I decided it was a must-have. I also wanted that max d10 hit die to start for extra survivability. Lastly, I realized I'd get Con saves, which is had to pass up. All the proficiencies are redundant since I was planning on going War Cleric. Those would be the next couple of levels. I'm also planning on going V. Human for Magic Initiate: Wizard to pick up booming blade.

Booming Blade + Spiritual weapon will keep me, I feel, fairly competitive on the on the front line. Heavy Armor prof and shield will keep me protected. But I'm wondering if I should consider more Fighter levels for more HP. I also think Battlemaster would be very appropriate for this character, and Action Surge is of course incredible on a caster. But I am worried about spell progression. How do you guys feel I should build this because I'm honestly having a hard time making a decision.

[Zetakya]

My instant response is to ask if you have considered Hill Dwarf? +1 HP/level is functionally almost as good as upgrading the Hit Die by a level - you will on average be 1HP behind a D10 HD character of the same level and CON. You also get +1 WIS, +2 CON and a couple of good Martial weapons, which considerably eases your constraints on Domain selection, as only Heavy Armour proficiency is still really critical if you have a Battleaxe or Warhammer available.

[djreynolds]

My instant response is to ask if you have considered Hill Dwarf? +1 HP/level is functionally almost as good as upgrading the Hit Die by a level - you will on average by 1HP behind a D10 HD character of the same level and CON. You also get +1 WIS, +2 CON and a couple of good Martial weapons, which considerably eases your constraints on Domain selection, as only Heavy Armour proficiency is still really critical if you have a Battleaxe or Warhammer available.

100% Hill dwarf is great and so mountain. I personally find shillelagh isn't the best because of concentration

For me you have to decide, to either focus on your attack stat, wisdom, or just leave both at a respectable 16.

If you focus on wisdom, sacred flame becomes your go to spell, it can be used in melee but it is save or suck... and often they pass this. Spiritual weapon is very good.. no concentration and its force damage

If it isn't against your beliefs inflict wounds is a very good spell in melee.

Often players focus on attack stat, as spirit guardians damages pass or fail with radiant damage

If you think about it, at 8th level you have divine strike, spirit guardians and spiritual weapon... your damage is very good.

I really like hill dwarf because of the extra HP, martial weapons and wisdom boost.

[Brother12]

The Forge domain still gives you heavy armor and has added defense options, some for you and some that are versatile. If you go Hill Dwarf or start with Fighter, you get martial weapons with shields and some better hp. I love me my dwarf clerics, but I've never played War domain. It looks a little more offense driven than the forge but significantly less defense based.

If your DM allows it, look into the UA Protection domain. It'll effectively give you the protection fighting style and has some synergy with Healing Word and other healing spells. Again, less offense than the War domain. I haven't played this one either though.

If you are set on the War domain, Fighter levels will give Action Surge and more hp, but Ranger levels will help with spell progression. They also help with hp. However, Rangers don't have the protection fighting style so maybe not for your character.

[Galithar]

So my quick take. Yes Clerics 100% can survive on the Frontline. I have a Wizard that survived quite well on the Frontline with lowish AC. Positioning and build can do wonders.

First on hit die. A d8 gives you only one less hit point per level than a d10. That's really going to account for less then a single hit in most situations. The Cleric has a lot of options for increasing their survivability beyond their HP.

Positioning is key. You're not a primary tank (not that there really is such a thing in DnD). What this means is that you don't want to let yourself get surrounded. You can take some hits, but you don't want all of them.

Spells can help you survive. Boosting AC and Saves isn't a super common ability, but Clerics are good at it. Shield of Faith is okay, especially early on, and bless is a great boost. Once you get to higher levels use some battlefield control. Spirit Guardians can help reduce the number of enemies that can reach you and discourage them from standing next to you.

Look into boosting your Con mod higher. Part of the reason Barbarians survive so we'll (apart from their resistance) is that their d12 gives them a good boost, but more importantly they have the space in their ability score to invest more heavily in Con then many others. Follow suit. You don't need maxed out strength. Your melee attack isn't your strongest thing anyways, even on the frontline. Max out wisdom, get the minimum Str or Dex you need for your armor and rely more in your spellcasting for damage. On the frontline make sure you have a save Cantrip available (it's the only kind Clerics get anyways) and put a good priority on boosting your Con or finding an Amulet of Health (this is how my Wizard did it)

[djreynolds]

I like war domain, and you can pass onto guided strike at 6th level twice a short rest

[Zetakya]

I find the War Domain to be too offensively focused to really be primarily a tank. It's better as a melee attack role. You don't have to be doing damage to be tanking - if you're simply being in position and granting bonuses to the attacking classes nearby, you're doing the job well.

Domains with Heavy Armour Proficiency

Core: Forge, Life, Order, Tempest, War

Unearthed Arcana: Protection, Twilight

Setting Specific: Solidarity, Strength, Zeal

[ZorroGames]

Casting clerics cast Bless replacing with Spirit Guardians when available; second round casting Spiritual Weapon as bonus action. Using non-concentration spells as your action. Between (concentration) Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, other non-concentration spells (Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead, Command, Guiding Bolt, Inflict Wounds, Blindness/Deafness, Bestow Curse, etc.,) you really do not need to melee but you can use your action to do so.

[CTurbo]

The Cleric is one of the most popular classes in 5e from what I've seen and several subclasses make excellent front liners. The best of the best IMO is the Tempest. Aside from social skills, they can pretty much do anything. I've played a variety of Tempests and once I was even the only tank in the party and did well. Overall the War domain is lacking and I don't recommend it. Forge is a nice alternative to Tempest.

As mentioned above, Hill Dwarves make great Clerics. Perfect ability score boosts and +1 extra hp per level are great. Variant Human is the "other" best choice because Clerics benefit hugely from several different feats.

1. Res(Con) is a great feat to start with. Grab this if Con is odd.
2. Warcaster is almost a must at some point. Grab this if Con is even.
3. Heavy Armor Master is a great tanky starting feat. Also adds +1 Str.
4. Magic Initiate as you already know gives you Booming Blade, a utility cantrip like Minor Illusion, and I recommend Find Familiar.

Another thing about 5e Clerics... after around level 5 or so, attacking with your weapon is rarely going to be the best way to use your action. Yes you CAN attack with your weapon, and between Divine Strike and Booming Blade, you'll hit pretty hard with your one attack, but in actual gameplay, often even taking the Dodge action is smarter than attacking. Some of your best spells are concentration and the last thing you want to do is have your concentration broken. That's why Res(Con) and/or Warcaster is so important. The popular Cleric setup is to get Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon up and running and then you can use your action to do whatever you want each turn. If you need to heal, you can heal, if you want to hit with your weapon, you can, if you want to maximize a Shatter as a Tempest, you can. If you choose to simply Dodge, you're still doing a LOT of damage from the two spells you have up. So Booming Blade is a great cantrip for Clerics and is especially thematic for Tempests, I wouldn't plan on relying on it a lot. One of my Tempests was actually built to be melee focused and I prioritized Str over Wis and I STILL ended up rarely attacking after levels 6 or 7.

Oh another GREAT feat example if you decide on Hill Dwarf is Dwarven Fortitude. You get +1 Con and everytime you use the Dodge Action, you can use a Hit Die to heal yourself.

Taking a level of Fighter is not a bad idea, but it does put you behind on your spells. The +2 hit points you gain is negligible but gaining Con proficiency makes it almost worth it alone. I love the Defense Fighting style as Clerics want their AC as high as possible, but if Protection fits your theme, then go for it.

That also brings me to the Protection Cleric. May fit what you're looking for. Ask your DM if you can use it. http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/cleric:protection

So quick recap
5e Clerics are great and many domains make excellent tanks
The 2 most important thing to Clerics are to max Wis and be able to maintain concentration as much as possible which means Con saves and high AC
Don't plan on using your weapon much. You CAN, but you probably shouldn't.

[Rara1212]

I personally find shillelagh isn't the best because of concentration


Shillelagh isn't concentration. It's just a straight minute.

[BigRedJedi]

Arcana Cleric lets you grab things like Shocking Grasp or Booming Blade, eventually getting to add +WIS to their damage through Potent Cantrip, if you want a melee cantrip.

[Zetakya]

@CTurbo: Remember that Green Flame Blade keys the rider damage off your casting stat, and the native casting stat will be either INT or CHA if you're getting it via Magic Initiate.

[djreynolds]

Shillelagh isn't concentration. It's just a straight minute.

Thank you, that's right. And its a BA. Good catch.

[CTurbo]

@CTurbo: Remember that Green Flame Blade keys the rider damage off your casting stat, and the native casting stat will be either INT or CHA if you're getting it via Magic Initiate.


Yes and that is exactly why I didn't mention it.


I also want to point out that adding Wis mod to the blade cantrip damage from Potent Spellcasting is really only about equal to adding the extra d8 from Divine Strike.

[1Pirate]

The main issue I’ve found with Clerics being on the front line is not lack of hit points, but rather the fact that more intelligent monsters start to focus fire you when they realize the healer’s right in front of them(it really doesn’t matter if you’re a healbot build or not, once that first Healing Word comes out, game on).

Other than that, I’ll just second everything CT said(with a little extra emphasis on the Spiritual Weapon+Spirit Guardianc+Dodge combo).

[Zetakya]

Yes and that is exactly why I didn't mention it.


I also want to point out that adding Wis mod to the blade cantrip damage from Potent Spellcasting is really only about equal to adding the extra d8 from Divine Strike.

Quite. And Damage is, as you've pointed out, quite a ways down most Tank built Clerics list of priorities.

I personally like Order, mostly for the synergy with other, more offensive combatants, but Protection is very good if your DM allows it.

[djreynolds]

The best combo I have used is this.

Arcana cleric with BB and war caster

The idea is you wade into melee setting off spirit guardians as like self centered radiant AoE

And the enemy can stay and take radiant damage

or flee and get hit with BB via war caster and take thunder damage

and then they can stay and take more radiant damage now

or flee and take more thunder

So really you're more of a wrecking ball

[Eldariel]

d8 HD is a miniscule part of your HP total. It's equal to an average of 1 HP less per level (2 on first level) compared to Fighter. Even d6 survives on the frontlines just fine. Like, on level 20 with 20 Con, d8 and d10 have, what, 21 points of difference. HP totals? 203 and 224. That's barely one attack on that level. Occasionally it might make a slight difference but everything else is about 100 times more important. So don't fret it, HD doesn't mean jack. What matters more is Con, your saves, and your feats (take Tough if you really want a lot of HP) and especially your output. You want high Con anyways; 16 is optimal (Cleric is a better War Caster user than Res: Con, so you don't generally want an odd Con) but 14 will do in a pinch.

Either way, you have spells to increase your survivability. Race can help too. But simple Vuman Arcana Cleric with 14 Dex, 16 Con, 16 Wis (taking Magic Initiate: Shillelagh) maxing Wis and then War Caster + Con is more than fine. You can skip on some Con for Sentinel or such if you feel like it. That's an excellent frontline Cleric for instance. Forge is another standout, though with heavier armor and martial weapons instead of Quarterstaff + Shield mojo. Tempest can be pretty good too tho the Channel Divinity is a bit restricted.

Overall, spells are the best. You'll miss them if you don't max out your casting. Full casting is a gift that just keeps on giving, doubly so with Cleric intrinsically knowing all their spells.

[LudicSavant]

[SPOILER=Here's what I'd like to receive input on:]I wonder how actually viable Clerics are at being on the frontline. I'm not suggesting they be the solo tank for a group, of course, but I mean as a second or third frontliner in a party. My primary concern is the d8 hit dice. Most of my play time has been a Barbarian and a Ranger: the Barb did great on the front line and the Ranger did okay in the short term. Both had good con scores.

Coming from an optimizer who's accustomed to things like Tucker's Kobolds / OSR Gygaxian Meatgrinder campaigns that will throw 6+ Deadly encounters a day at you:

How viable are Clerics on the frontline? Very, when properly built for it. They don't even have to be the second or third frontliner, they can legitimately take the Barbarian's position. They might even prefer to be the solo frontliner (since Cleric tanks tend to be quite good at taking advantage of the situation "I want to move past you to get to the back line").

Is d8 HP a meaningful impediment? No. A cleric's active defenses (control, healing, buffs, debuffs, etc) are a great deal more mathematically impactful to your survivability than the difference between a d8 and d10 HD.

Should I only consider Cleric subclasses with heavy armor proficiency? No. Medium and Heavy are more sidegrades with pros and cons, rather than a case of one being flat out better than the other.

At early levels, Medium and Heavy will give you about the same AC. Eventually (once everyone's got piles of gold) plate will give you +1 AC over Medium. However, even once that's true, that benefit is offset a fair bit by the disadvantages of investing in 15 Strength (instead of the defensively and tactically superior Dex) and costing 750 extra GP (which can be spent on other useful things. In some campaigns, that can even be a +1 AC magic item). So the advantage of heavy armor isn't so big that it's going to just overshadow, say, the tanking tools the Arcana subclass offers.

[Zetakya]

However, even once that's true, that benefit is offset a fair bit by the disadvantages of investing in 15 Strength

Another reason Dwarves are so good at Cleric: laughing at your silly Strength requirements for Plate.

[Justin Sane]

I'll second (or third) the Arcana Cleric suggestions. Check out build 4 from this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23794664&postcount=1). Shillelagh + Booming Blade just adds your Wis Mod to damage so many times (through Potent Spellcasting), it's ridiculous.

[8wGremlin]

There is a lot of Love for Heavy Armour, and I just don't get why. Can some one please elucidate.

[Waazraath]

Just do it, it works fine.

I'm running a tempest cleric atm, just became level 5.

- high elf, dex based, shield, rapier & booming blade cantrip
- spend spells on utility (augury, detect magic), healing (healing word, lesser restoration), damage (spirutal weapon, maximized shatter or thunderwave), bfc (fog cloud) or (sometimes, in specific cases) buff (bless)
- extra damage as a reaction with class feature
- bonus BB damage with an repelling blast blastlock.

To be honest, it works like a charm. If needed, I can supertank with dodge + spiritual weapon. In general I do damage on par with dedicated melee, at least until my slots are gone. And it's very versatile.

It works so well, that I'm considering to just ignore the usual cleric shtick (spirit guardians) and pump all my 3rd level slots in maximized shatters and Aid spells, and spend most time hitting stuff. Buffes my allies as well, and I don't need to bother with concentration checks and warcaster and all that.

[ShinyRocks]

We've just rounded up a campaign where I was the solo tank as a Nature Cleric. It only went to level 8, cos my DM wasn't having fun with the story, but it was getting into tougher, more complicated fights.

It wasn't intended to be like that, but we had a Druid who dropped out very early, so I was basically Tank and Healer for a party of me, ranged Assassin Rogue, Mage, Warlock and Artificer. The Artificer could throw a heal here and there but didn't super like to.

I only had 12 Con. And I was a Mark of Handling Human. I was definitely not optimised.

I got a +1 shield pretty early, so my AC in chainmail was 19, went up to 21 once I got plate.

And it was fine. Towards the end the Artificer got replaced by a Paladin, and I definitely appreciated having someone else meaty on the front line with me. But until that point I was keeping the bad guys away from the squishies (my DM was pretty lenient and went on the 'you're in their face, they'll hit you' school, rather than 'tanks need to have Sentinel etc to lock down the bad guys'), and trying to keep myself up, and keep them up with Healing Words if they dropped to zero, and do control stuff like Blind or Banish or Hold Person or etc etc etc.

It was my first ever tabletop D&D, though I had lots of video game experience.

I guess my point is, if my very poorly optimised Cleric can be main tank and main healer, then a properly optimised one can absolutely hack it on the front lines, especially if they're sharing the space with a Pally or a Barb or whoever.

[Biggstick]

The primary goal of Clerics (imo) in any combat worth using leveled spell casting is to get up a powerful concentration spell and maintain concentration on it. If you're looking to do that from the frontlines, there are a couple other things you'll need to consider.

• AC
• HP
• Saving Throws
• Damage reduction/mitigation for self and/or allies
• Threat to enemies (really only valid if your DM plays intelligent bad guys)

The three domains that do these things really well imo are Life, Nature, and Forge. All three of these domains have features that help with AC stacking, damage mitigation, and can actually benefit from picking up BB or GFB. While I'm not a fan of using BB or GFB on Cleric if your intention is to tank (as I prefer Spirit Guardians + Dodge Action), it's still viable if you're able to pair it with War Caster.

If you use BB or GFB, you're not using the Attack action. You're using the Cast a spell action. Sure, BB and GFB require an attack with a melee weapon as part of the spell description; that requirement doesn't mean you are performing the Attack action. By not using the Attack action, you don't qualify to use the Bonus Action attack granted from the War Priest feature of the War domain.

Personally, I feel the Hill Dwarf Nature Cleric is one of the tankiest Clerics you're ever going to come across. Make sure you have a 16 Wisdom and an even numbered Constitution (pending how long you expect your game to go). At level 4, pick up the Dwarven Fortitude from Xanathar's. This will allow your Dodge Action to not only make you harder to hit, but will allow you to expend hit dice to recover HP. Further on at level 8, pick up Resilient Constitution. This will put you back at an even Constitution (hopefully 18) and you'll have quite an HP pool. At levels 12 and 16, pick up both Lucky and Warcaster in either order you prefer.

As a Nature Cleric, you gain a coupe of great features for a supporting tank. You gain a Druid Cantrip, which we're going to use on picking up Thorn Whip. This cantrip will allow you to peel for your squishy allies while getting enemies closer to you in general (which if you're running Spirit Guardians can be quite powerful). As a Nature Cleric, you're also gaining a feature called Dampen Elements, which will cover your Reaction action economy for the late game in being able to reduce any elemental damage received for either self or allies. By not having a limit on use, this means it can be used both for in combat and out of combat situations (such as a Rogue triggering a fire-based trap while picking a lock).

All of this is on top of having a ton of HP. You'll be able to control the battlefield and stand up to enemies through judicial use of the Dodge Action, Spirit Guardians, and Spiritual Weapon. Should peel be needed for allies, you have Thorn Whip. Should you need to reduce incoming elemental damage, you have Dampen Elements.

With all that though, any Cleric is capable of "frontlining;" it all depends on how your DM runs their game. Communicate with your DM and figure out how you can expect to tank. Find out if the DM will be providing lots of magical items that classes who wear armor can take advantage of (+1 on a set of armor and shield can do a ton for a character's resting AC without requiring anything from optimization). If the DM plans on running a high magic campaign with tons of bonuses, you might not have to worry so much about optimization. Personally, I prefer to optimize my characters if I'm trying to fill a certain role.

Best of luck, and I hope you find some answers here.

[Snowbluff]

Don't discount the Tempest Cleric. They can punish and reposition enemies that can attack them, and present some of the largest nova damage a cleric can muster at most levels. I've been playing a Tempest Cleric with a short Sorcerer dip in AL (and I admit, with printing of absorb elements, Wizard would be better), and after prioritizing defensive items like Staff of Power and some stronger plate and shield, I've been an agitating opponent. I've literally had a DM walk out when they saw how strong he was, which did make me feel bad, on top of meaning I had to DM that day.


healer’s right in front of them(it really doesn’t matter if you’re a healbot build or not, once that first Healing Word comes out, game on).


It's a bit of a false premise to assume that anyone has the role of "healer" in combat. For more than half of the game levels, this is determined by who has "healing word," either the spells or a similar ability, which many classes can get. After that, it's if you can cast Heal, because most healing doesn't otherwise keep up.

Finally, if there is someone determines "you are the healer," and focuses on you, the full plate wearing, shield carrying, aura of slowing and damage wielding meat stack in front of the party, congratulations, you've officially drawn the aggro from the squishier parts of the team, and will make the fight go much more quickly.

[Chronic]

Arcana cleric was mentioned more than once and is in my opinion one of the best tank. Arcana cleric treat BB as a cleric spell, which combined with warcaster provide very good attack of opportunity. If magic initiate is taken as a feat, shillelagh make him SAD. If you combine this with spirit guardian and spiritual weapon, it leaves you your action to either attack or use defense. Disadvantage on being hit is no joke, especially if you use a shield in off hand. Considering you will be a difficult target to hit and the fact you have warcaster, your concentration should not be broken often, putting the enemy in a difficult situation, your AoO will be devastating if he moves, and if he stays in the zone of an upcasted spirit guardians he will take serious damage and have limited movements. Of course there is enemies less concerned by this kind of build, but no build is perfect.

[Biggstick]

Don't discount the Tempest Cleric. They can punish and reposition enemies that can attack them, and present some of the largest nova damage a cleric can muster at most levels.

No doubt killing an enemy before they kill you is a valid strategy, but I don't feel like that makes them a good front line Cleric.


I've been playing a Tempest Cleric with a short Sorcerer dip in AL (and I admit, with printing of absorb elements, Wizard would be better), and after prioritizing defensive items like Staff of Power and some stronger plate and shield, I've been an agitating opponent. I've literally had a DM walk out when they saw how strong he was, which did make me feel bad, on top of meaning I had to DM that day.

Once magic items start entering the fray, any class that can wear heavy armor can become what's considered a front line character. While what you've collected for your AL Tempest Cleric/Sorc sounds quite impressive, I'm not sure if it's the norm in most home games. I could be totally wrong though and will concede the point if it is the norm in other home games.


It's a bit of a false premise to assume that anyone has the role of "healer" in combat. For more than half of the game levels, this is determined by who has "healing word," either the spells or a similar ability, which many classes can get. After that, it's if you can cast Heal, because most healing doesn't otherwise keep up.

Finally, if there is someone determines "you are the healer," and focuses on you, the full plate wearing, shield carrying, aura of slowing and damage wielding meat stack in front of the party, congratulations, you've officially drawn the aggro from the squishier parts of the team, and will make the fight go much more quickly.

This is definitely something I can agree with, and something a Tempest Cleric can do quite well. They can be a massive damage threat through Call Lightning (if not concentrating on Spirit Guardians), maximized Shatter, combinations of lightning/thunder damage options, and then normal Cleric damage options. On top of all this, Tempest Clerics can toss out a Healing Word. All of this is likely to attract the attention of an enemy, making the Tempest Cleric a particularly good target for an enemy. And as you said, this works to keep squishies safe.

However, if your combats take longer then a couple rounds, the Tempest Cleric, without tons of magical item assistance, isn't likely to stand up well to more then a couple rounds of punishment. That might be enough to kill an enemy, and then your point is valid imo. Most combats I participate in as a Player and as a DM typically last longer then a couple rounds though, and a typical Tempest Cleric would last just as long as any other Cleric domain.

[sambojin]

Since you've said you'll be the second/third frontliner, I totally support the choice of War as your domain. People really seem to underestimate just how good +10 to-hit (that can be handed out to others) is.

Sure, in a vacuum, it works better with niche MC builds like war + pally or druid or swashbuckler.

But since you'll be dropping it onto people that are smiting/ restraining/ stabbing/ GWMing/ SSing or tripping people, at level 6 and beyond at least, you'll find that it adds a tonne of damage in a party, as well as heaps of reliability.

That's also at the exact same time that you get all your nice damage spells online as well, and they're ones you have auto-prepared, so you can have plenty of healing and utility alongside for weird or hard situations as well.

I know, in a white room analysis of what does the most damage/ is the most tanky, War doesn't look great. But it's pretty reliable as a melee combatant at lvl1-5, and at lvl6 it becomes amazing. Putting the dead condition on things does plenty for damage mitigation. Making the people that make things dead do it with +10 to-hit is not to be underestimated. It's almost making auto-hits, that people can tack whatever they want onto.

-5/+10 GWM/SS? Nah, make it +5/+10, or let them go ham with superiority dice/ smites/ grapples/ stabs/ whatever. You add a *heap* of reliable damage to a party. It's not like that's all you're doing either, your spells and basic melee are ticking up the numbers pretty well too. But having massively reliable openers for combat encounters for your party is a godsend :)

You do have pretty good magic for other stuff as well (don't forget just how much damage "you" can do with stuff like Hold Person/ Bless/ even Enhance Ability as well. You've got a pretty deep pool of kickarsery, it's not just SW/GS spirity spam).


For all those times where a bard's die just isn't good enough, or your fighter would really rather be tripping/air-proning stuff than using their die to only just manage to hit, or where a doubled smite or a super-stab would have really made a difference (I've seen both classes look pretty sheepish as they entirely miss against a paralyzed target), or for when you think "Wow, Bless isn't a very good spell for this", there's you. The War Cleric. Ever reliable, huge +10 boosts, and doing all the stuff that normal clerics do as well. You even get Hold Monster later on, just to make sure you can paralyze anything. And you have a pretty easy run up to lvl6 as well with the odd bonus action attack or +10 on you, so you can grapple/shove+splat people sometimes. Or just look at it as your backup action surge, to get you to lvl5. And somehow people underestimate you....

[djreynolds]

Really all clerics are a great class.

Very tough and resilient. Not huge splash damage but very consistent

War clerics at 6th level can really help out with players spamming GWM and SS, that +10 damage is big in a fight.

So every short rest, you can do this twice. You might say the battlemaster has 1d8 maneuvers, still might roll a one, this is +10 to hit.

So much is being thrown out... because people really love the 5E cleric

Remember spells like the Aid spell... not just 5 extra temp HP... but your max is increased by 5hp for 8 hours

I really like the class and its archetypes

And IMO, humbly, no reason to multiclass really

[Man_Over_Game]

Honestly, the only difference between the Paladin and Cleric in terms of defense is that the Paladin get Heavy Armor (compared to 50% of Clerics that do), the Paladin gets +2 more starting HP and +1 more HP per level, and some of the Paladin auras help stave off negative effects.

That's it. Paladins are less dependent on Concentration spells, but that's more of a choice than a requirement (they have plenty available to cast, most just blow their slots on Divine Smite).

Nobody is saying that Paladins can barely hold the front line, so why should Clerics have a hard time bridging that gap?

[sambojin]

If you do want to multi class, Fighter isn't a bad start level. That Con save proficiency is nice, as is the protection fighting style (and you've got Shield of Faith always prepared, so you can be pretty selfish and just be super tanky). Dueling also isn't too bad. It's only +2 damage, but it does make you far hittier early on, until you get a decent amount of spell slots going.


Another fairly overlooked one is Druid. You don't really start with it, but chipping it in at around lvl7-12 isn't bad, assuming your DM will overlook the metal armour exclusion (you have literally been ordained by a War god to wear it, and have been doing so for your entire adventuring existence). It gives you a fair bit of spell preparation versatility, and gives you plenty of lockdown/damage-boosting from your level 1 slots for when you're bored of Bless. Entangle and Faerie Fire are great in a melee heavy party (you plus 1-2 more characters). This just gives you some more sustain out of the spell slots you have, and they hit different saves for different situations and enemies. It really depends on party make-up of whether this is worth it though.

Prepare your Healing Word, and FF/ Entangle (and maybe any three of Goodberry/ Longstrider/ Fog Cloud/ Thunderwave/ Detect Magic at Wis 20) out of your druid prep allowance, grab a couple of fun cantrips (thorn whip and mold earth?) and just run with it. It's not a super power dip, it just gives you more options at later levels. You *will* have Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians up a lot of the time, off higher level slots, so being able to faff about anti-grappling stuff off squishies with Thorn Whip just relieves the monotony (and is pretty useful too). Because you've got 1-2 "cleric" spells prepared on the druid side, you can then start to choose weird stuff out of your cleric allowance. It's not a wasted dip, it's just a fun one, so you can do other stuff in/out of combat too. May as well use those lower level slots for fun/effective stuff, so you can use your higher level ones for proper cleric stuff.

Works better as a Druid dipping Cleric, but it's OK at about the exact same levels as a Cleric dipping Druid. You'd be surprised how far an extra 1-3 spells prepared goes in the versatility department (especially when you don't actually lose anything that you normally do from it, except a Cleric level, and they sort of taper off eventually). More spells prepared is *always* good on full-list casters.

[MrStabby]

Yeah, a front line cleric is fine. Forge is best for pure tankyness, but a lot of heavy armour wearing ones will be good - do the standard dwarf to avoid needing high Str so you can boost Con instead.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with multiclassing - at least not till higher levels; no need to over-complicate this.

The one thing I would add, somewhat dependant on party composition, is to consider the dash action. If you get out in front of the party with spirit guardians up a readied dash action is often better than dodge. Someone gets within 10ft of you triggers your movement. They eat some spirit guardian damage, use up extra movement closing through the spell and then still end up out of range. Also a readied dash can also be used to effectively extend the coverage of the spell - if you trigger your reaction on someone taking damage you can dash such that another person/group is within range at the start of their turn.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, the only difference between the Paladin and Cleric in terms of defense is that the Paladin get Heavy Armor (compared to 50% of Clerics that do), the Paladin gets +2 more starting HP and +1 more HP per level, and some of the Paladin auras help stave off negative effects.

That's it. Paladins are less dependent on Concentration spells, but that's more of a choice than a requirement (they have plenty available to cast, most just blow their slots on Divine Smite).

Nobody is saying that Paladins can barely hold the front line, so why should Clerics have a hard time bridging that gap?

And many of the typical Cleric builds get access to Absorb Elements (through Magic Initiate), which further helps with tanking compared to a Pally. Indeed, having full spellcasting is a huge benefit especially since Clerics don't need to burn as much of their casting to do stuff as Pallies since they don't rely on Smiting for damage (generally one spell per encounter suffices, though you might use Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians on exceptionally tough ones). One level dip in a Shield-casting class can still be worth it (Wizard or Sorc) simply because you'll have a lot of spell levels and if you want to do any AC-tanking, that spell is silly.

Medium armor and heavy armor is barely a matter. It's +1 AC, at a stat cost. All Clerics get shields, which are the big thing. Of course, Forge is an exception in that they can start with magic armor (or weapon) and get an innate buff to AC; as soon as you start ramping up your AC, extra AC becomes more and more meaningful. In both cases though, if you want to maximize your AC you do want one level dip in a Shield-casting class since that spell is absurd.

[Zetakya]

In both cases though, if you want to maximize your AC you do want one level dip in a Shield-casting class since that spell is absurd.

I'm frankly unconvinced by the necessity of Shield; while it's a big (if short-lived) boost to AC, it comes with the cost of using up your reaction, and that's quite a significant factor when it comes to your ability to control a fight, as it removes your ability to use Opportunity Attacks and readied actions.

It also comes with the costs of requiring you to have 13 in what would otherwise be a dump stat, and delaying your Cleric progression.

Past a certain point, control is more valuable to a tank than AC, IMO

[stoutstien]

Clerics are very solid on the front lines. Sometimes it's as simple as dodge + SG/SW/ both is all it takes.

[stoutstien]

I'm frankly unconvinced by the necessity of Shield; while it's a big (if short-lived) boost to AC, it comes with the cost of using up your reaction, and that's quite a significant factor when it comes to your ability to control a fight, as it removes your ability to use Opportunity Attacks and readied actions.

It also comes with the costs of requiring you to have 13 in what would otherwise be a dump stat, and delaying your Cleric progression.

Past a certain point, control is more valuable to a tank than AC, IMO

If eberron is on the table aberrant dragonmark mark can net shield with a SR recharge and +1 Con.

[Eldariel]

I'm frankly unconvinced by the necessity of Shield; while it's a big (if short-lived) boost to AC, it comes with the cost of using up your reaction, and that's quite a significant factor when it comes to your ability to control a fight, as it removes your ability to use Opportunity Attacks and readied actions.

It also comes with the costs of requiring you to have 13 in what would otherwise be a dump stat, and delaying your Cleric progression.

Past a certain point, control is more valuable to a tank than AC, IMO

I agree and I wouldn't generally dip on any full caster, but I brought it up in case somebody does specifically want to max AC (which seems to be a thing people are into). Tho even without your reaction, if you have e.g. Spirit Guardians up and somebody is already attacking you, chances of you getting an AoO that turn aren't that high; SG alone makes it very hard for enemies to get away from you.

[Trustypeaches]

Honestly, the only difference between the Paladin and Cleric in terms of defense is that the Paladin get Heavy Armor (compared to 50% of Clerics that do), the Paladin gets +2 more starting HP and +1 more HP per level, and some of the Paladin auras help stave off negative effects.

That's it. Paladins are less dependent on Concentration spells, but that's more of a choice than a requirement (they have plenty available to cast, most just blow their slots on Divine Smite).

Nobody is saying that Paladins can barely hold the front line, so why should Clerics have a hard time bridging that gap?
Don’t forget Paladins have Aura of Protection, which also improves their concentration saves which makes it less risky to man the front line.

[ZorroGames]

Don’t forget Paladins have Aura of Protection, which also improves their concentration saves which makes it less risky to man the front line.

And a cleric that stays within 10/30 feet of said Paladin, IIRC, benefits from it.

[MrStabby]

And a cleric that stays within 10/30 feet of said Paladin, IIRC, benefits from it.

Nah, that paladin is in different party. At least 3 miles away to the nearest one.

[ZorroGames]

Nah, that paladin is in different party. At least 3 miles away to the nearest one.

Well. That is a bit far. 😉