Grappling in combat

[kiwi5ucker]

So you can replace one of your attacks with a grapple whenever you take the attack action as long as you have a free hand. You can still attack them so you can poke them with a longsword and and all that, but it does seem too good. You give up an attack to make it so your opponent can't leave your side unless they use an action, but they can still poke you back. Obviously its nice to be able to move an enemy where you want them and its a good way to get squishy enemy casters in an easy spot to smite, but then again you could just whack them with your sword yourself. It doesn't seem like its the best unless there are a lot of ledges and your DM gives full Experience points when you drop goblins into canyons. Am I missing something? I feel likes its best to just attack and kill them faster

Also random other thing about combat: Tridents? why are they martial spears that dont even get the benefits of polearm master or spear mastery like spears do. Tridents are just plain bad and I wanna know whyyyyy

[sulimo0310]

Grappling really shines with team cooperation and coordination. If you shove a grappled enemy prone, they have a speed of 0, so they can't get up unless they break the grapple. Being prone means all their attacks have disadvantage and all attacks within 5 ft have advantage. This is devastating with a melee heavy party. Have a few casters with an concentration based damage spell? Hold your enemy (two if you use both hands) on the AOE of their damaging spell. Grapple plus the cantrip Create Bonfire is downright lethal for zero resource cost at low levels. Not to mention that if you are the party tank, keeping an opponent from moving next to your squishy friends is the idea. Nothing does that more effectively for less resources than grappling one or two enemies.

[Christew]

Grappling really shines with team cooperation and coordination. If you shove a grappled enemy prone, they have a speed of 0, so they can't get up unless they break the grapple. Being prone means all their attacks have disadvantage and all attacks within 5 ft have advantage. This is devastating with a melee heavy party. Have a few casters with an concentration based damage spell? Hold your enemy (two if you use both hands) on the AOE of their damaging spell. Grapple plus the cantrip Create Bonfire is downright lethal for zero resource cost at low levels. Not to mention that if you are the party tank, keeping an opponent from moving next to your squishy friends is the idea. Nothing does that more effectively for less resources than grappling one or two enemies.
This.

In tier two and above, a single melee attack begins to pale in comparison to battlefield control. It is also highly useful in myriad situations to reduce an enemy's speed to zero.
Need to stop the enemy from escaping/reaching the switch/attacking your wizard pal? Grapple em.
Need to bring down a flying foe and have a tall building to leap from? Sky grapple em.

[da newt]

https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-grapplers-manual-2-0-grappling-in-5th-edition.468737/#whygrappling


Something I found online with a bunch of good grappling info.

[Krobar]

I've got a grapple build fighter, with Tavern Brawler and Brawny. He likes to grab opponents and shove them prone right next to the other fighter. Or the rogue. Then they both start stabbing. With advantage, and maybe action surges, or sneak attacks every round.

[Sam113097]

I feel like, in addition to the mechanical benefits of grappling that have already been mentioned, the ability to do things like grapple in combat helps make D&D more than just automatically swinging a sword like in a video game. Yes, maybe if my barbarian hit an enemy with his sword, he can do more damage, but it's a lot more fun to imagine my barbarian rushing the enemy and tackling it to the ground to set up an easy kill for the party rogue, or knocking an enemy into a Storm Sphere with a shove.

Tridents are bad though, not sure what the deal with those is.

[MrStabby]

A grapple is good... till it isn't.

When you come accross things too big to grapple or immune to the grappled condition then it kind of sucks.

So yeah, just use it as part of a toolbox, don't invest in it too heavily and enjoy its power.

[Slayn82]

If you are dealing with enemies too big, you can still grab them to move along or impose burden.

As DM, going beyond RAW, I also allow grabbing an arm or closing an mouth to impose disadvantage on that specific attack. Or something like a fighter pulling up a Dragon's head to give advantage to his party's saves.

[Man_Over_Game]

There's a lot of problems with the default weapons.

Quarterstaves, for instance, are far too good for too cheap. The Glaive is too expensive for no reason (other than style, I guess), and Tridents need to be something like 1d6, 1d10 Versatile to be barely better than a Simple Weapon.

Just talk to your DM about it. Most sensible DMs would implement a change if asked about it.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

but then again you could just whack them with your sword yourself. It doesn't seem like its the best unless there are a lot of ledges and your DM gives full Experience points when you drop goblins into canyons.

If your DM doesn't he's in a minority.

Also, don't forget that area hazards don't have to be naturally occurring. They can be a Bonfire spell or a Firewall or a Moonbeam.

Grappling is best when used for party synergy and rarely good when used on your own.

[MaxWilson]

This.

In tier two and above, a single melee attack begins to pale in comparison to battlefield control. It is also highly useful in myriad situations to reduce an enemy's speed to zero.
Need to stop the enemy from escaping/reaching the switch/attacking your wizard pal? Grapple em.
Need to bring down a flying foe and have a tall building to leap from? Sky grapple em.

...Need to stop a Star Spawn Mangler from getting 200 HP worth of auto-crits on your buddy who just got paralyzed by a Chuul? Grapple it.

Want to stop a wizard from just walking out of a Silence zone and resuming casting? Grapple her.

Want to move an enemy out of a chokepoint so other PCs can pass through? You-know-what.

It's not appropriate in all situations but it's a nifty little option to keep in mind.

[Skylivedk]

My group is very fond of grappling. Especially combined with prone and/or darkness. Currently two players can grapple extremely well (moon druid/barbarian going into giant scorpion and rogue/Hexblade) and two prone extremely well (Hexblade and rogue/Hexblade). It allows for crazy battlefield control when you lock down 2-3 enemies before counting spells.

[Lavaeolus]

Yes, the grapple+shove combo is very strong. It might be somewhat situational, depending on enemy and team composition, but when you can turn someone into permanent prone it's pretty powerful. Be aware that they can shove you right back, moving you 5ft and breaking the grapple, or otherwise attempt to escape; but for a character built around grappling that's a harder gamble. And note that the multiattack monsters get is usually specific enough that they can't substitute attacks with shoves like you can.

Now, that can leave grappling feeling a bit like a one-trick pony, but otherwise the battlefield control is appreciated. Certainly there are occasions where just attacking is probably the simpler and smarter action, but I think it leaves grappling in a good place.

Mind, if your DM is generous about environmental interaction and keeps giving you ledges, I'd certainly take advantage of it. As DM, I might require either a shove attack or maybe give the enemy a saving throw if you just want to move and drop them, but for what it's worth I can't see how throwing someone off a cliff doesn't count as defeating them and grant full XP. Though do it too much your DM is probably going to conspicuously start avoiding fights by cliffs, and whatcha gonna do? Start writing monsters, "Dear sir or madam, please meet me by the clifftop posthaste"?

[MaxWilson]

Though do it too much your DM is probably going to conspicuously start avoiding fights by cliffs, and whatcha gonna do? Start writing monsters, "Dear sir or madam, please meet me by the clifftop posthaste"?

Start abusing Mold Earth to dig 5' pits, drag enemies into them, and bury them in thousands of pounds of dirt?

[Remover of Obst]

This seems like it could be fun with a Loxodon Order Cleric with Brawny and Shield Master.

Attack Action - Trunk Grapple, Bonus Action - Shield Shove and you still have a free hand.

Pretty Mad and feat intensive for a cleric. But you would have options for encounters that don't work well for grappling.

[Joe the Rat]

The other point of the grapple is you get to take them with you. In addition to the aforementioned cliff scenario (which your DM should totally award - it's about overcoming enemies, not how much blood you have on you), you could also drag into position for AOE, drag towards other PCs for easy melee, drag away from other PCs to protect them, or drag vertically (flight, wall running, jump good) for fall damage.

[MaxWilson]

The other point of the grapple is you get to take them with you. In addition to the aforementioned cliff scenario (which your DM should totally award - it's about overcoming enemies, not how much blood you have on you), you could also drag into position for AOE, drag towards other PCs for easy melee, drag away from other PCs to protect them, or drag vertically (flight, wall running, jump good) for fall damage.

Just watch out for weight limitations. Grappling doesn't increase the amount of weight you can lift, push, or drag, and many, many monsters are much heavier than the 300-600 lb. a Str 10-20 PC can typically lift. E.g. even a horse typically weighs between 600 lb. and 2000 lb, and I'd expect an ogre to be in a similar weight range let alone something Huge like an elephant or dragon.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Just watch out for weight limitations. Grappling doesn't increase the amount of weight you can lift, push, or drag, and many, many monsters are much heavier than the 300-600 lb. a Str 10-20 PC can typically lift. E.g. even a horse typically weighs between 600 lb. and 2000 lb, and I'd expect an ogre to be in a similar weight range let alone something Huge like an elephant or dragon.

Whether or not those limits apply depends on your DM, as you aren't dragging an object but forcing a creature to move. It's not impossible you're doing something painful that makes them take steps moving their bulk.

If your DM does decide to apply object dragging rules, then effects like Powerful Build or Barbarian Bear Aspect of the Beast become useful (a 16 strength PC with either of those abilities can drag 960 lbs, which rises to 1,200 at Str 20). These effects stack, too, so if you're really worried about weight, be a Goliath Bearbarian and drag 4,800 lbs. You still won't be lifting elephants, but it'll work for most monsters.

In any case, low strength PCs should probably not be grappling.

[MaxWilson]

Whether or not those limits apply depends on your DM, as you aren't dragging an object but forcing a creature to move. It's not impossible you're doing something painful that makes them take steps moving their bulk.

That is true, it's not impossible.

[Segev]

That is true, it's not impossible.

Kind-of is if you do the “push prone” trick, though.

[MaxWilson]

Kind-of is if you do the “push prone” trick, though.

"Impossible" is a strong word that I wouldn't use here.

"Unlikely" yes.

[NaughtyTiger]

Just watch out for weight limitations. Grappling doesn't increase the amount of weight you can lift, push, or drag, and many, many monsters are much heavier than the 300-600 lb. a Str 10-20 PC can typically lift. E.g. even a horse typically weighs between 600 lb. and 2000 lb, and I'd expect an ogre to be in a similar weight range let alone something Huge like an elephant or dragon.

Not necessarily.
Grappling a 30lb (60 with gear) creature should be a straight lift off the ground for 18str orc, right. no encumberance applies, yet there is still a speed penalty.

It is reasonable that grappling text specifically overrules general encumberance.
Prone can include hands and knees...

[Segev]

Not necessarily.
Grappling a 30lb (60 with gear) creature should be a straight lift off the ground for 18str orc, right. no encumberance applies, yet there is still a speed penalty.

It is reasonable that grappling text specifically overrules general encumberance.
Prone can include hands and knees...

The point is that it will call for DM ruling on a case-by-case basis. Does the DM agree that you're forcing the other guy to march (and that the 0 movement he has is overridden by the fact that you're moving with him)? Or does he believe you're dragging him, kicking and screaming?

An 18-strength orc hefting a 30-lb. halfling bard by his frilly collar might not be encumbered, but he has a struggling, kicking halfling in his hand that is slowing him down. If you know anybody who would trust you to pick up their kids, next time their 4-year-old or younger is pitching a fit, pick them up. Then try to walk full speed. The little one's not going to be more than you can easily carry, and you could, in a pinch, run with them if the child were cooperative (or you just held a child-weight bundle of inanimate deadweight), but when they're struggling with you....

Now, admittedly, grapple rules say you're at half speed for incapacitated targets, too. So take that as you will.

The rules are not perfect, but they're frankly better than prior editions in terms of sheer usability.

[MaxWilson]

Not necessarily.
Grappling a 30lb (60 with gear) creature should be a straight lift off the ground for 18str orc, right. no encumberance applies, yet there is still a speed penalty.

It is reasonable that grappling text specifically overrules general encumberance.
Prone can include hands and knees...

Or stacks with encumbrance penalties!

I repeat, it's wise to check with your DM before putting all your eggs in that basket.

[Guy Lombard-O]

An 18-strength orc hefting a 30-lb. halfling bard by his frilly collar might not be encumbered, but he has a struggling, kicking halfling in his hand that is slowing him down.

Now, admittedly, grapple rules say you're at half speed for incapacitated targets, too. So take that as you will.

I'm not 100% on this, but that paralyzed halfling would slow a storm giant down to 25' movement too, wouldn't it?

I like the game ruleset as written for the most part, and I like the ease of playability. But there are parts where I wish they'd gone into just a bit more detail.

[Segev]

I'm not 100% on this, but that paralyzed halfling would slow a storm giant down to 25' movement too, wouldn't it?

I like the game ruleset as written for the most part, and I like the ease of playability. But there are parts where I wish they'd gone into just a bit more detail.

The grapple rules only slow the grappler to half speed for moving while grappling somebody one size smaller than him, or larger.

So no, a storm giant, being at least Huge, would not be slowed by a Small-sized halfling. Heck, an ogre (Large-sized) wouldn't be slowed by grappling and moving with a halfling (Small-sized).

This is not speaking to encumberance, just to the Grapple rule regarding when the half-speed thing applies. Assume for sake of argument that the halfling is negligible weight to the one grappling him.

[Christew]

Haha, love the mental image of a giant with a halfling enclosed in his huge fist being slowed by the difficulty of carrying it though.

[Segev]

Haha, love the mental image of a giant with a halfling enclosed in his huge fist being slowed by the difficulty of carrying it though.

What's more amusing to me is if that halfling managed to grapple the giant (not impossible, and more likely if the halfling is unusually strong and has Athletics trained) and/or shove him Prone (same roll of Str(Athletics) to accomplish).

[Christew]

Go for the knee! If you can climb/jump that high ....

[MaxWilson]

What's more amusing to me is if that halfling managed to grapple the giant (not impossible, and more likely if the halfling is unusually strong and has Athletics trained) and/or shove him Prone (same roll of Str(Athletics) to accomplish).

It is impossible. It's illegal to grapple or shove someone more than one size larger than you.

[Segev]

It is impossible. It's illegal to grapple or shove someone more than one size larger than you.

Ah, so it is. I had thought I'd read exactly the opposite somewhere. My mistake.

[deljzc]

Grappling sounds a bit abusive rules as written.

I don't like "one grapple per hand".

I don't like grapple a size above you without disadvantage.

If I was to tweak the rules, those are the two things I would change.

Only one grapple target per turn. Grapples can be made on creatures one size bigger than you, but with disadvantage.

[Joe the Rat]

Keep in mind grapple isn't a full body lock, arm bar, or anything more than "Has a solid hold on the person and is controlling collective movement." Got you by a belt or bandolier is a reasonable read of the situation.

Grapple plus prone is close, but that's only "imposes disadvantage on any attacks made by proned" and "advantage on attacks by adjacent fellows." Restrained requires a feat, and any other possible conditions (blindness and mute being the obvious ones) are pure DM ruling.

(My take, it's another opposed Athletics roll and requires your other hand to cover eyes / mouth. Breaking grapple automatically removes this condition)

[ragnorack1]

Keep in mind grapple isn't a full body lock, arm bar, or anything more than "Has a solid hold on the person and is controlling collective movement." Got you by a belt or bandolier is a reasonable read of the situation.

Grapple plus prone is close, but that's only "imposes disadvantage on any attacks made by proned" and "advantage on attacks by adjacent fellows." Restrained requires a feat, and any other possible conditions (blindness and mute being the obvious ones) are pure DM ruling.

(My take, it's another opposed Athletics roll and requires your other hand to cover eyes / mouth. Breaking grapple automatically removes this condition)

Really like your home brew rule for blinding/silencing, gives martial a it more utility but at the cost of only being able to deal with one foe, and do less damage due to not having a free hand for a weapon. If I get opportunity I definitely want to try that out in a game I run.

[MaxWilson]

Grapple plus prone is close, but that's only "imposes disadvantage on any attacks made by proned" and "advantage on attacks by adjacent fellows." Restrained requires a feat, and any other possible conditions (blindness and mute being the obvious ones) are pure DM ruling.

(My take, it's another opposed Athletics roll and requires your other hand to cover eyes / mouth. Breaking grapple automatically removes this condition)

For blinding I'd require something extra, like a hood you could throw over the victim's eyes, and destroying the hood would end the blinding. Otherwise it's (1) not realistic, and (2) strictly better than pushing prone.

I just don't see covering someone's eyes with your hand as a realistic blinding strategy for anyone you haven't completedly dominated, like an adult against a toddler.

[Trustypeaches]

I'm playing a Strength based Ranger using the UA Class Variant rules to get expertise athletics.

I picked the Hunter subclass, with the "Horde Breaker" feature that provides free extra attacks when enemies are within 5 feet of one another.

My plan is to use grapples and shoves to exercise battlefield control without sacrificing my damage output, using my first attack to grapple / shove an enemy within 5 ft of another enemy, then performing my second attack which triggers a third attack with Horde Breaker. In the end it "breaks even" with just taking two normal attacks, but I get an extra bit of battlefield control out of it.

[Trustypeaches]

For blinding I'd require something extra, like a hood you could throw over the victim's eyes, and destroying the hood would end the blinding. Otherwise it's (1) not realistic, and (2) strictly better than pushing prone.

I just don't see covering someone's eyes with your hand as a realistic blinding strategy for anyone you haven't completedly dominated, like an adult against a toddler.
Blinding is incredibly powerful in 5e: disadvantage on attack rolls against creatures who can see you, and them having advantage on you barely scratches the surface of how powerful blind is.

The vast majority of spells and monster abilities require "A Target you can See". Blinding a spellcaster does a better job of neutralizing them than "muting" them does. A Blinded Beholder's only option in combat is the Bite action. Etc. etc.

So in general I'd be very careful with how lax you are about handing out the blinded condition to improvised actions; it's far more powerful than prone or restrained.