Making monks work.

[Monsterpoodle]

I like the idea of monks. I really do but I have struggled with them being useful in a campaign, especially in 3.5.
The issues I have had with them are[LIST=1]
1. They are a point sink. To be an effective monk you really need high dex, high wis, and high strength and con are pretty useful too.
2. Even with all of that they struggle to get a good AC or damage output and the bonuses they get don't seem to scale well, especially at the lower levels.
3. I struggle to think what their role is. They don't scout as well as a thief. They don't hit as hard as a fighter nor can they take as much damage.
4. To get comparable they need magic items which are mostly very class specific.

If anyone out there has played a monk and enjoyed it then I would love to hear what roll they had and how you made them effective.

[nedz]

Standard Advice: If you like the Monk concept — play an unarmed Swordsage.

[Gruftzwerg]

Can you be more specific?
A. Are you talking about straight 20 levels regular monk?
B. Only monk related classes and prc?
C. Or builds with monk levels at all?

A.) Who plays straight 20 levels of a non T1/2 class? When was the last time you tried to play a fighter 20 or a paladin 20? What you never played one? So why would you try it with a monk? I mean, I even barely see builds with straight 5 base lvls in a single class before entering a PRC (unless T1/2 builds again.)

B.) Yeah, this can be crippling. But than again, why would you limit yourself? I mean, I barely see any Ubercharger (fighter) without a Barb dip for ACF to get pounce. So why would you pull out such non rule fluff oriented limitations that you wouldn't for any other build?

C.) Now we can talk. Most non T1 class builds in 3.5 are multiclass characters that try to specialize their build. Which means, that that only dip the the base classes for a few lvls to enter PRCs and progress from there. And here, monks are doing very fine imho. There are enough build options for going monk 1, 2 or even 6 lvls, which is equal or even more than the average Paladin, Ranger, Fighter, Rogue dip.
The hate toward monks comes from old times where 3.5 hadn't been completely released and people where much more focused on comparing classes. If you want to build a character with monk and optimize it, it can be done. I have several builds (see signature) with some monk and monkish prc dips and they are all doing more dmg than needed to 1shot most encounters in a single hit (and have pounce to drop multiple enemies per turn).

So what is it that doesn't work for you regarding monk? Imho they (dip monk and monkish prc) do fine in T3 builds, where most optimized builds without full T1 casting are.

To your questions:

1. Yeah monks are MAD (multiple attribute dependency) and this is annoying. 28P struggle and definitely need to specialize their builds around 1-2 stats. But imho 28P buyout system is the least used system in my experience so far (from my own games and what I read and hear from the internet and other people). Other Classes like Paladin have similar problems.

2. the struggle is only on the early levels and a lil bit more expensive as monk. Bracers of armor gives you up to +13 AC (+8 armor +5 enhancement) and you can add all armor enhancements on it. Sure it is a lil more expensive than regular armor, but that's sole a low level issue. You can get similar or even higher AC as monk compared to other non casters without a shied.

3. depends on what you build around your monk lvls. They can be really good dips for damage dealer builds or evasive builds. Sneaky build may like that they are always armed with their unarmed strike. It's simply the best "hidden weapon" you can get.

4. Ain't that the case for most non T1 classes, that they need items to feel complete/good. It's just that the selection is heavily altered due to the monk abilities. Bracers of Armor instead of normal armor and Necklace of Natural Attacks instead of a Magic Weapon. Other than a monks belt there ain't that much difference to a fighters or rogues item selection.

Unless you are talking about A or B, yeah with monk dips I had really fun and enjoyed them to the fullest. They can add their weight to certain build types to make dips worth it.

Monk struggle the most in the early levels. A big part of that is related to being MAD and that Weapon Finesse requires +1BAB and thus is not available at first level (for those classes that need it.. really so annoying..). So unless you have high rolls, you will have problems if you want to build a Finesse build. The other thing is as said that the early items they want to have are more expensive and thus delays the point when you get them.
If you start at higher levels many of these problems are non existent. So it's basically the early levels where monk builds are lacking.

[Kurald Galain]

If anyone out there has played a monk and enjoyed it then I would love to hear what roll they had and how you made them effective.

Here you go (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained).

[King of Nowhere]

I am having a lot of fun playing a (mostly) single class monk.
first of all, that works because none of us is optimizing too hard. for high op, as others have said, nobody takes a single class unless it's a primary caster. also, you need either a high point buy or good dice rolls; but that goes for all MAD classes.
regarding the role of the monk, of course you can't compete with a dedicated dps in damage. my build focuses on tripping as my main offensive tool; sometimes grappling to disable a weaker humanoid foe (though with freedom of movement becoming more common, it's getting rarer).
my main shtick is that i optimized defences; with high armor class, high saving throws and a lot of immunities, I am hard to hurt. I am basically a tank with battlefield control. my main limitation is that if there is an opponent too big and strong to trip who hits harder than me and can reliably hit my AC, then there's not much I can do. but those instances are rare enough, and when it happens, that's what the rest of the party is for. I am also the main scout, thanks to good spot and listen, decent stealth and high survivability

[SirNibbles]

Use and abuse ACFs. Martial Monk to get feats, Invisible Fist to just generally not suck. Outside of the first two levels of monk, there's not really much reason to stay Monk so you can go something like Ranger or Duskblade to be able to not suck outside of combat as well.

[Elkad]

Give lots of PB points.

The more points you give, the more you help the low tiers relative to the high ones.

Then steal liberally from Swordsage and PF:Unchained monks.

[AvatarVecna]

Full BAB or Wis to attack.

Wis to damage.

Extra skill points and extra class skills to allow a small variety of non-combat roles.

Some method of making more than a single attack in the same round that you move.

A few more bonus feats.

Wholeness Of Body is more mechanically similar to Lay On Hands (level x Wis IIRC?).

...this doesn't make Monk good on the level of big casters obviously, but this'll have them competing with other well-built meleers.

[Sutr]

Use and abuse ACFs. Martial Monk to get feats, Invisible Fist to just generally not suck. Outside of the first two levels of monk, there's not really much reason to stay Monk so you can go something like Ranger or Duskblade to be able to not suck outside of combat as well.


Shadow Blend at level 7 is awesome though probably broken though. Decisive strike and flurry get better. Mantis leap from 3.0 never got updated so still exists in 3.5. Spell resistance can be made passible. Basically if you look at a completed guide you can make a reason to go up to 11 monk.

[Falontani]

Addressing monk as a whole rather than your specific points:
Ac: it's hard. No armor. You can use bracers of armor +8 with a +5 enchantment. Or you can abuse the following fairly easily: Eternal Wand of Mage Armor costs 2k gp and requires you to have a single arcane caster level to use, magical training can do this, or you can begin working on entering Enlightened Fist. This also allows you to eventually get an Eternal Wand of Greater Mage Armor for +6 at 30k. Another option is hidden talent: inertial armor. Being a Kalashtar gives you power points and an increasing manifester level so that it scales with you. A fourth option is to get the Abjurant Champion a pearl of power to throw their extended quickened greater mage armor at you for +11 ac.

2. Movement: you have some amazing movement speed, but you can't move and attack. Grab Mantis Leap from sword and fist. This makes monks so much more fun depending on how your dm rules it. Otherwise look into getting pounce. Remember that a lawful barbarian does not lose pounce.

3. To hit: the hardest part, I guess. No matter how you go about this your in the same boat as the rogue. Unless you fob. Don't fob unless you know you can hit, don't power attack unless you know you can hit, if your worried about it there is an exalted feat that gives wis to hit.

4. Power/role: monk is weird for a martial, because it doesn't have a standardized role. You have skill points and class skills, but not enough to be a full scout. You have speed, and you can deal damage. But you aren't Calvary. Your support options are basically 0. So what are you supposed to do. Define monk with a prestige class. There are many classes that do well with a monk entry, and many more monk specific classes. Captain America your way to victory! Serenity + Intuitive Attack and enter Argent Fist. Halfling monk + scout + Rogue + highland stalker yourself some amazing skirmish damage with Mantis Leap, leap attack, and even shock trooper. Tashlatora your way into Warmind. Kung fu genius + swashbuckler + assassin means intelligence to monk stuff, damage, and assassination dc, punch someone with a death attack. Monk augments so much if you find the right ability!

Barbarian/Monk/fist of the forest/warhulk is terrifying.

[Crichton]

Surprised it hasn't been said yet, but use a combo of Improved Natural Attack and an item (or caster) of Greater Mighty Wallop, to push your Unarmed Strike damage as high as possible. Trade that 2d10 for 12d8, at level 20, if you can get a high enough CL on your Greater Mighty Wallop. Potentially higher, if you use a different method of increasing your effective size that doesn't have GMW's limit.

[heavyfuel]

Giving Monks Full-bab, d10 hit dice, and Flurry of Blows as a Standard Action already makes them very competent melees.

No need to go much beyond that.

[Zarrgon]

1. They are a point sink. To be an effective monk you really need high dex, high wis, and high strength and con are pretty useful too.

Take a deep breath and let this just drop. Counting the numbers is just not a good way to have fun. Trust me that having a +3 over a +2 will not make the game that much more fun.



2. Even with all of that they struggle to get a good AC or damage output and the bonuses they get don't seem to scale well, especially at the lower levels.

Again, deep breath and drop it. Don't worry over a point of AC or a point of damage. If your character hits and does five points of damage, it won't unfun just as they did not do six points of damage.



3. I struggle to think what their role is. They don't scout as well as a thief. They don't hit as hard as a fighter nor can they take as much damage.

Monks approach adventures as if they were personal tests. While not prone to showing off, monks are willing to try their skills against whatever obstacles confront them. Monks are not greedy for material wealth, but they eagerly seek that which can help them perfect their art.

The monk functions best as an opportunistic combatant, using her speed to get into and out of combat quickly rather than engaging in prolonged melee. She also makes an excellent scout, not the sneaky kind, but the more hide in plain sight kind.



4. To get comparable they need magic items which are mostly very class specific.

Well, all classes ''need" magic items. Even the all powerful wizard and cleric need items. So I'm not sure why this is an issue.



If anyone out there has played a monk and enjoyed it then I would love to hear what roll they had and how you made them effective.

Monks are good at doing crazy stuff. Monks should not be slugging it out rolling boring attacks, they should be looking for non-standard actions. A good monk will have lots of ranks in things like Jump and Tumble, and can use the environment to do unusual things both in and out of combat.

[ngilop]

I think Monks are on the cusps of being decent. and just a few small tweaks will get them to where they need to be

1) Wis to unarmed strikes attack and damage
2) Abundant step 1/day at 12th then an additional time every 4th level afterwards
3) Quivering palm 1/day
4) at some point, allow them to make a move and do flurry of blows ( I personally let them move their base speed and flurry as a full round action at 10-ish I think)
5) Give them something along the lines of the Qinggong Monk (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk/), a set of abilities that are typical cinematic martial artsy stuff
6) Set up about 4 or 5 different fighting styles and let them pick with certain benefits ( either bonus feats or actual abilities) sparsed throughout the 20 levels.

[Telonius]

Way, way back in the day (about 2004- or 5-ish, I think) I played a VoP monk. This was in the early days of 3.5, before a lot of the standard optimization advice was standard. Only one person in the group knew how to play to their character's strengths; the rest of us didn't really know what we were doing. We played the entire Shackled City adventure path.

I enjoyed playing the character; but this was despite the mechanics. It played out about how you would expect. Terrible record of "Flurry of Misses," with no real way to mitigate it. Over 20 levels, I landed a Stunning Fist literally zero times (and not for lack of trying). Mechanically, it was bad (even with the DM throwing me a bone by letting me take non-exalted feats for my VoP bonuses once I ran out of useful ones).

What made Mordechai one of my favorite characters to play was his role as group leader and moral center, and how the DM allowed us to interact with the setting. Mordechai donated the entire portion of his GP share to the Lantern Street Orphanage. Eventually they opened up vo-tech classes and apprenticeships (the "Morcechai School for kids who want to read Good and wanna learn to do other stuff Good too"), to the point that parents were pretending to abandon their kids so they could get in. Leadership turned the urchins into my Lantern Street Irregulars.

Basically, all of the non-combat stuff was what made the character satisfying. In-combat, I might as well have been an NPC. It was immensely frustrating to be outshined by everybody else in the group. I still had some fun setting up flanking with the Rogue, and "not dying" was one of my specialties. But even with a group of new players who didn't know what they were doing, it was very noticeable. Running a campaign today, with 16+ additional years' worth of collective optimization wisdom, there's no way I would have kept up; at least not as a VoP character.

If I were to run him again today, it would probably be as either a Psychic Warrior, Incarnate, or Sacred Fist (if I absolutely had to have the VoP connection); unarmed Swordsage otherwise.

[Troacctid]

A good fix for the monk is to backport the much more playable 5e version of the class, like so: www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21519003&postcount=10

If you're not using homebrew, then the trick is to just take a good prestige class like psionic fist, jaunter, sacred fist, enlightened fist, tattooed monk, assassin, fist of Dal Quor, henshin mystic, Telflammar shadowlord, or dragon descendant. You should also take advantage of the more powerful ACFs like invisible fist and Dark Moon Disciple. And if you're a kalashtar, there's a kick-ass embedded dragonshard that increases your unarmed strike damage by a full size category, and you can get it in multiples to stack up ridiculous damage dice. Greater mighty wallop is nice too, if you have access to a friendly wizard.

[ngilop]

psionic fist

This is smart advice.

Heck.. just give the Monk the psionic fist progression through all 20 levels to represent those mystic monk abilities.

[Biggus]

Well, all classes ''need" magic items. Even the all powerful wizard and cleric need items. So I'm not sure why this is an issue.


Mostly because a lot of Monk items are extremely expensive compared to other classes'. An Amulet of Mighty Fists for example costs the Monk three times what it takes to get the same amount of bonus on a weapon. Likewise due to being MAD they need ability score-boosting items on four of their six stats to be really effective at mid-high levels, whereas a Wizard only needs an Int-boosting item (Dex and Con boosts are nice for Wizards, but if they're spending most of their combat time invisible and flying from level 7+ rather than in the thick of the combat like Monks, much less essential).

@OP: I largely agree with what others have said. For me the key points are: if you're playing a straight RAW Monk, only do so when you're using at least 32PB or a similarly generous method, or if there's going to be a caster available to cast Greater Mighty Wallop on you. Otherwise, you need a multiclass psionic build using the Tashalatora feat or a good prestige class (like those mentioned by Troacctid: Fist of the Forest is also good).

But really more than any other core class, Monks need to be houseruled to work well. Full BAB in particular seems obvious to me, I'll never understand why they thought 3/4 was adequate for a melee-based class.

[Gruftzwerg]

Surprised it hasn't been said yet, but use a combo of Improved Natural Attack and an item (or caster) of Greater Mighty Wallop, to push your Unarmed Strike damage as high as possible. Trade that 2d10 for 12d8, at level 20, if you can get a high enough CL on your Greater Mighty Wallop. Potentially higher, if you use a different method of increasing your effective size that doesn't have GMW's limit.

because it's wasted resources.
They don't stack. In 3.5 you can't stack any effect as you like, we have rules for that. And size effects are not "bonuses" in terms of 3.5 and thus overlap (only the strongest effect applies. if that effect ends, the 2nd strongest applies and so on).

Further you take a Necklace of Natural Attacks (assigned to your unarmed strike) and apply Sizing (+1) to it. Now you can size your unarmed strikes to colossal size (-8 to hit if you are medium size). This makes all mentioned things almost absolute (except they don't suffer the to hit penalty from size difference for their tiny single step bonus, where sizing would already imply a -2 penalty). No reason to pick those up really.


______

And at the others with their homebrew ideas. While it is up to you, why bother with that if you have good options with regular books? (unless you miss the access to them). Or is the task here to make monk(20) as strong as optimized multiclass/prc builds? I don't get the point?

[SirNibbles]

because it's wasted resources.
They don't stack. In 3.5 you can't stack any effect as you like, we have rules for that. And size effects are not "bonuses" in terms of 3.5 and thus overlap (only the strongest effect applies. if that effect ends, the 2nd strongest applies and so on).

This is why you should always quote the rules if you're going to make a ruling. You are categorically wrong.

"Modifier Types
Size Modifier
A size bonus or penalty is derived from a creature's size category. Size modifiers of different kinds apply to Armor Class, attack rolls, Hide checks, grapple checks, and various other checks.
- SRD

_____


For 8,000 gp, you can get a continuous item of Blood Wind (Spell Compendium, page 33), allowing you to full attack with melee from afar.

As I mentioned before, use ACFs.

Martial Monk from Dragon Magazine #310, page 45 allows you to choose any Fighter Bonus Feat as one of your Monk Bonus Feats. This allows you to ignore the prerequisites, as you would for a normal Monk Bonus Feat.

Invisible Fist from Exemplars of Evil, page 21 trades away your Evasion at 2nd level for the ability to turn invisible as an immediate action once every 3 rounds.

Outside of the first two levels of Monk, you don't really gain much that can't be replaced by other classes, feats, or items.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24080559&postcount=51)'s a monk/rogue build I made for Junkyard Wars (ended up winning Gold).

It uses four main tricks. The first is the iconic stealth alternate class features: Invisible Fist and Dark Moon Disciple made Azoth invisible in a way that couldn't be bypassed by true seeing and let him phase through walls and bindings. That alone (plus the requisite Darkstalker to negate special senses) is enough to make a monk a highly effective scout.

The second trick is Skill Knowledge (iaijutsu focus) to make that permanently a class skill. Invisible Fist starts letting you force the flat-footed condition as early as level 3 (I started with a level of Rogue), and once your stealth gets into top gear it's a guaranteed source of bonus damage. I took advantage of it by using thrown weapons, which leads us into the next point...

Precision damage. SO much precision damage. Got a quick boost from the Halfling Rogue RSL for an extra die of Sneak Attack with thrown weapons. Took the Halfling Monk RSL to get Skirmish instead of Flurry, qualifying Azoth for the Swift Ambusher feat to get even more Skirmish bonuses. Even without anything else, this gives Azoth the tactical option of moving instead of full-attacking while still keeping his damage up. Grab a Sparring Dummy of the Master, though, and you can move 10ft a round and still full attack, all while targeting flat-footed AC unless you get caught in daylight or daylight. Even without that, at 17th level a dip into Warblade or Crusader will give you the Press the Advantage stance which lets you do the same thing (and stacks nicely with the SDotM benefit).

Finally, counter-attacking. Monks have great defenses, but normally there's little incentive to prioritize them as targets. That changes if you're scouting (which this build is very good at) or if you're dishing out lots of damage (oh, the build is also good at that!). Robilar's Gambit + Mercurial Strike lets you draw a weapon and stab anyone that attacks you for full SA and iaijutsu focus damage (just make sure to drop it as a free action so you can rinse and repeat). This is good enough it may be worth deactivating your permanent total cover to deliberately provoke opportunity attacks (making a full attack of thrown weapons next to a melee opponent that takes all of those AoOs theoretically doubles your damage). Spell Reflection lets you take advantage of your high touch AC to reflect any ray attacks that miss you back at the caster. And of course, between permanent total cover and permanent blink you've already got two separate sources of miss chance, both of which make targeting you and actually hitting you with spells a lot harder (which isn't a counter attack, but is still good enough to be worth noting).


Also, check out the Options and Alternatives section of the build for tweaks you can make. For instance, if Dragon Magazine content is allowed, the Sidewinder Monk variant gives you an extra 3d6 of SA and a couple of other benefits without costing you anything of note.

[Monsterpoodle]

These are all good points. I have the players handbook and the DMG only so many of your classes are new to me.

Many of you made points about using multiclassing to optimise the monk because no-one would play a monk without dping that.

That is kinda my point.

I would happily play almost any other class and feel no need to dip into another class to make it playable.

Don't get me wrong. I had a dwarven professional wrestlet (monk) that I enjoyed immensely but although entertaining it was hard to define what his purpose was.

At this stage the only unique purpose I can define for pure monks is getting through combat to target enemy spell casters with grappling.. Even then there are lots of other ways to deal with them in a balanced party.

[Gruftzwerg]

This is why you should always quote the rules if you're going to make a ruling. You are categorically wrong.

"Modifier Types
Size Modifier
A size bonus or penalty is derived from a creature's size category. Size modifiers of different kinds apply to Armor Class, attack rolls, Hide checks, grapple checks, and various other checks.
- SRD

sorry but I repeat it again and afterwards I'll explain it for you:


Size effects are not "bonuses"

What you quoted are the size modifiers that your get for your size. And these are bonuses or penalties, I never implied anything else.
What I quoted on the other hand is that "effects" that change your size are not bonuses. Because a bonus is:

Modifiers (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores)


A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.

Your size itself it not a die roll. When e.g. Enlarge Person increases your size by one step, but it doesn't target your attack roll or AC (these are bonuses from the size you gain, but doesn't turn your effect into a bonus), it targets your size. The same is for things that change the "size" of your unarmed strike. They change the size category of your unarmed strike/natural weapon (whatsoever) which isn't itself a roll again.

edit: you can look up any size changing effect and won't find the word "bonus" there in 3.5 (except from the Enlarge Person, which adds Bonuses that you woudn't get normally for size changing).

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Likewise due to being MAD they need ability score-boosting items on four of their six stats to be really effective at mid-high levels, whereas a Wizard only needs an Int-boosting item (Dex and Con boosts are nice for Wizards, but if they're spending most of their combat time invisible and flying from level 7+ rather than in the thick of the combat like Monks, much less essential).

Not as bad as you'd think. Because of the way escalating prices work out, bringing four stats up by (e.g.) +2 is actually less expensive than bringing the wizard's one stat up by +3. You should end up only -2 or less in your main stat compared to the wizard for most of your career, and have more spending money left over (your other stats will still be lower of course, due to having started lower). Still a disadvantage, but by no means a crippling one.

[fallensavior]

I enjoyed a Warforged Monk.

Take the ACFs from City fo Stormreach to replace monk features that are redundant with Warforged racial abilities.

Battlefist ups your unarmed damage by one size and increases your slam damage to d8.

Beast Strike (Dragon Magazine) adds your newly increased slam die to your unarmed damage.

Enchanting a Battlefist uses the normal magic weapon formula instead of the expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists formula. Also you can get a few crafted out of various metals to bypass metal based DR.

Effective size increases from Improved Natural Attack and Empty Hand Mastery should stack with Battlefist's effective size increase, as they are untyped and from different sources. (But check with your DM on that.)

Add in a Monk Belt, Superior Unarmed Strike, and a psionic item of Expansion (Enlarge Person doesn't work on Warforged) and you can cap out at 13d8 damage in the early teen levels.

It doesnt help with the Flurry of Misses problem, but at least when you actually hit something it will feel it.

[Gruftzwerg]

I enjoyed a Warforged Monk.

Take the ACFs from City fo Stormreach to replace monk features that are redundant with Warforged racial abilities.

Battlefist ups your unarmed damage by one size and increases your slam damage to d8.

Beast Strike (Dragon Magazine) adds your newly increased slam die to your unarmed damage.

Enchanting a Battlefist uses the normal magic weapon formula instead of the expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists formula. Also you can get a few crafted out of various metals to bypass metal based DR.

Effective size inrcreases from Improved Natural Attack and Empty Hand Mastery should stack with Battlefist's effective size increase, as they are untyped bonuses from different sources. (But check with your DM on that.)

Add in a Monk Belt, Superior Unarmed Strike, and a psionic item of Expansion (Enlarge Person doesn't work on Warforged) and you can cap out at 13d8 damage in the early teen levels.

It doesnt help with the Flurry of Misses problem, but at least when you actually hit something it will feel it.

as said, anything that changes sizes are effects and not bonuses. The absence of the word "bonus" doesn't make it into an untyped bonus. It's just a positive effect and not bonuses...

[sorcererlover]

I second the suggestion of playing some other class unarmed. If magic is involved, fluff magic as ki.

[Gruftzwerg]

I second the suggestion of playing some other class unarmed. If magic is involved, fluff magic as ki.

Enlightened Fist would be the obvious prc choice here with either sorc/wiz or warlock (aka clawlock) to enter. Still no reason to shun upon the monk ^^ Monks arn't that bad as people think imho.

[Falontani]

I do need to mention that the gauntlet (not the spiked, bladed, or other varieties) can specifically be enchanted as weapons, and count for all purposes as an unarmed attack for monk, even though monk isn't proficient with the gauntlet. (I mean they aren't even proficient with unarmed strikes..)

[Gruftzwerg]

I do need to mention that the gauntlet (not the spiked, bladed, or other varieties) can specifically be enchanted as weapons, and count for all purposes as an unarmed attack for monk, even though monk isn't proficient with the gauntlet. (I mean they aren't even proficient with unarmed strikes..)

and denies you to flurry and stunning, since it ain't a monk weapon. better stick to Necklace of Natural Attacks..

Those who read the entire discussion should start to see a pattern now. How misinformed most people are when it comes to 3.5 monk optimization... It's so sad..

[Falontani]

and denies you to flurry and stunning, since it ain't a monk weapon. better stick to Necklace of Natural Attacks..

Those who read the entire discussion should start to see a pattern now. How misinformed most people are when it comes to 3.5 monk optimization... It's so sad..

Yes it is sad.

I was talking about this with a friend the other day, who misread unarmed strike as unarmed attack in all of the monk's abilities, and then pointed towards the fact that both unarmed strikes and gauntlets are counted as unarmed attacks.

Stunning Fist does specify unarmed attack, so only flurry of blows doesn't work, and it's already been established that this ability is garbage and should be traded out.

[Gruftzwerg]

Yes it is sad.

I was talking about this with a friend the other day, who misread unarmed strike as unarmed attack in all of the monk's abilities, and then pointed towards the fact that both unarmed strikes and gauntlets are counted as unarmed attacks.

Stunning Fist does specify unarmed attack, so only flurry of blows doesn't work, and it's already been established that this ability is garbage and should be traded out.

Yeah you are right there. See even I get some things wrong on this topic^^.

____

And yeah stunning fist is useless, unless you need it for a prc. Imho that is the biggest issue with monks. You have a pile of useless abilities and prerequisites on one side and missing synergy with the prc's and or items on the other side. I mean how many of the monk related PRC progress flurry? Maybe less than 5? I can only recall 2 right off the bat where one is 3.0.. Not a single item boosts flurry. But there are tons of useless related Stunning Fist abilities and items that nobody asked for and nobody wants.

[SirNibbles]

and denies you to flurry and stunning, since it ain't a monk weapon. better stick to Necklace of Natural Attacks..

Those who read the entire discussion should start to see a pattern now. How misinformed most people are when it comes to 3.5 monk optimization... It's so sad..

Says the guy who claims bonuses aren't bonuses by reading RAW strictly at some points and then completely ignoring it at other points.

I guess you can't have bonuses to AC because those aren't a die roll, and according to you anything that's not a bonus can't stack. Beast Strike also doesn't work for your build because it doesn't say it's a bonus so it can't stack with your damage.

[Falontani]

3/4ths bab, prefect saves, 4+int skills, d8 hd. It is almost to the top chassis (either d12 hd full bab and 6+int or Full bab and 8+int being the top two chassis out there)

This is where monk is good. Pushing to full bab would be amazing, but I'm not going to talk about homebrew in this post.

Unarmored Defense is a mixed bag, it can be great, but usually it hampers more than helps. Wisdom based makes it great for any wisdom based spellcaster or manifester. Unfortunately for monks, druids can get it too, and we already know that druids are awesome.

Flurry of Blows is... The idea behind it is okay. But it doesn't pan out with this class. The class is aimed around speed, and already has 3/4ths bab, decreasing your to hit further is undesirable, stopping your movement is undesirable, and doing both for a single extra strike is... Not a good trade.
1. Decisive Strike: this isn't a bad trade. It's not a good trade, but you can do worse. Now your monk can punch through objects and dr more easily. It still shouldn't be used the vast majority of the time however.
2. Halfling Monk: this is a good trade. Sucks that this is a racial choice and not for everyone, but this is absolutely a boon to monk, and you can improve upon it fairly well with multiclassing.
3. Kalashtar Monk's Psychic Insight: Remember how I said you could do worse? This is worse. Again the idea is nice, but it is too limited. Had they just limited it based on your manifester level (which scales with hd rather than class level) it would have been decent, but still not good.

Bonus Feat: hey, are you splashing monk? Because level 1 bonus feats are why you splash. You've got three to choose from, but there are so many good alternate choices to choose from you'd be hard pressed not to find something acceptable. The standard is stunning fist. Dc 10 +1/2 hd + wis mod puts you in the slightly better category than divine spellcasters. The effects... Aren't worth it normally. Don't take it unless you plan on improving it with any of the majority of ways you can do that. Remember that ability focus: stunning fist is a thing, and you can do well with this.

Oh look evasion: why are you questioning this? It's super useful if you can make reflex saves, but then you get to look at
1. Invisible Fist. This thing is amazing. If you can't find a way to make this useful then you need to watch the wizard's turns more often.
2. Spell Reflection. This is usually not as good as evasion. However if you are planning on entering any other class that grants evasion then it isn't bad!

And another bonus feat. Same as last time

Fast movement. Very useful.
1. Durable: dr/- is useful. But not as much in such low quantities and so far spread out.
2. Standing jump: useful, possibly very useful. You can pair it with leap attack, mantis leap, and other abilities. Do remember that +10 land speed is also +4 jump. On a pure monk I'd eventually pick it up, but probably not until level twelve.

Still mind is... An ability. It honestly wouldn't be bad. Except. Your a wisdom based class, with good will saves. And mind blank exists. In a social campaign I can see an argument for keeping it, but otherwise toss it out for one of the following
1. Lay on Hands. You are one feat away from making this wisdom based, and since it is a touch ability you can channel it, and in a later round punch an undead to deal more damage. Not my go to, but not bad.
2. Darkvision. Lame! Next... Wait your telling me if I grab darkvision here I can do what? Ok I'll list it as a decent option here, but if your pulling out of monk next level, skip it.
3. Fire resistance 5. It's not good. But it does make you almost able to ignore most natural fires. Like a house fire, being lit on fire, etc. Not all, but situationally entertaining.
4. Prayerful Meditation: it's just about as useful as still mind. Probably not as useful, but close.

Doing this on mobile wasn't a good idea, I can finish when I'm home, but if someone else wants to do this it would be much appreciated. Some of the class features aren't as bad as they seem, but the acfs are where monk can shine.

[Biggus]

Not as bad as you'd think. Because of the way escalating prices work out, bringing four stats up by (e.g.) +2 is actually less expensive than bringing the wizard's one stat up by +3. You should end up only -2 or less in your main stat compared to the wizard for most of your career, and have more spending money left over (your other stats will still be lower of course, due to having started lower). Still a disadvantage, but by no means a crippling one.

Huh? Four +2 ability score items cost 16,000GP total. A single +3 item (if one existed) would cost 9,000GP.

Or if you mean +2 in the sense of "a +4 Str item gives +2 to attack and damage", four +2's cost 64,000GP, and one +3 costs 36,000GP.

[Gruftzwerg]

Says the guy who claims bonuses aren't bonuses by reading RAW strictly at some points and then completely ignoring it at other points.

I guess you can't have bonuses to AC because those aren't a die roll, and according to you anything that's not a bonus can't stack. Beast Strike also doesn't work for your build because it doesn't say it's a bonus so it can't stack with your damage.

1. everybody may make mistakes and remember something wrong.

2. The General Rule for bonuses is:

The Basics (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores)

A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.

One of the subrules (specific) is "AC Bonus". An exception. (for reference)

Armor Bonus

An armor bonus applies to Armor Class and is granted by armor or by a spell or magical effect that mimics armor. Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses. An armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks, except for armor bonuses granted by force effects (such as the mage armor spell) which apply against incorporeal touch attacks, such as that of a shadow.

Do you see any kind of "Size Bonus" on that site that makes the same exception? (listing it as modifier type)


Size Modifier

A size bonus or penalty is derived from a creature's size category. Size modifiers of different kinds apply to Armor Class, attack rolls, Hide checks, grapple checks, and various other checks.
This rule talks about "Size Modifier", and explains that these are "size bonus/penalties" derived from being a size category for AC and rolls that include size modifiers. Nowhere it says that "size bonus" has anything to do with a size change, nor that they stack with each other like in the chase with dodge or untyped bonuses.

So if you have an effect that cause a size change, it can't be a "size bonus", cause that's defined as a modifier for being a certain size, not for a change in size.

size change != size modifier that you get for being or a certain size

No stacking rules for size changes, sorry we lack the permission by RAW.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco
Here's a monk/rogue build I made for Junkyard Wars (ended up winning Gold).

I have to say that looks excellent in all respects, and the writeups alone are worth the Gold.

How much of this can you pull off in Pathfinder?

:smalltongue:

[Vaern]

I've tried workshopping a handful of monk fixes myself and, while they all seem like good buffs to the vanilla monk on their own, rewriting the class and putting *all* of those fixes into place at once resulted in something that was much, much more powerful than a martial class should probably be...

BAB - Not only do they have a lower hit chance than other martial classes, but 3/4 BAB also gives them fewer attacks per round than a fighter, barbarian, paladin, or ranger of a comparable level.

Flurry of Blows - Giving the monk an extra attack per round may make them feel like they're attacking faster, but really two attacks per round at -2/-2 at 1st level is just emulating a TWF character. But with a worse BAB. Losing the penalty and gaining an additional bonus attack later on is nice for the monk, but still looks lackluster compared to other classes. Compare that +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 to a TWF ranger's or fighter's +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3.

MAD: The monk's lack of armor proficiencies and addition of wisdom bonus to armor class makes wisdom seem practically essential, despite offering nothing to the monk *except* give them AC.

Quivering palm: A save-or-die effect that comes online way too late and is far too limited.

Possible rewrites that I've toyed with:
Give monks full BAB, leaving flurry as-is.
Change flurry so that the monk gains a bonus attack for each regular attack she makes, at the same attack bonus. Essentially TWF, but without the penalties.
Allow flurry of blows to add wisdom bonus instead of strength to attack rolls. The fact that it only works with unarmed strikes or special monks weapons and only applies to a full attack action makes it a bit less useful to someone seeking to splash a level just to gain the bonus. Alternatively, make the bonus available as a feat option at level 2 or 6.
Give flurry of blows a bit of extra utility by allowing the monk to take an additional 5-foot step as part of their full attack action for every 10 or 20 feet of bonus movement speed they have.
Allow ki strike to add wisdom bonus to attack damage. The fact that it's a 4-level dip that only applies to unarmed attacks should make it unlikely that anyone would splash monk for just this bonus.
Instead of 1/day, make quivering palm cost 2 or 3 daily uses of stunning fist.
Instead of a save-or-die mechanic, quivering palm is now a standard action touch attack which deals damage as though the monk had struck with a full attack using flurry of blows. The monk rolls damage as though he had struck with multiple attacks (adding strength and other bonuses as normal), but the target suffers damage as though from a single source for the purpose of things like damage reduction. At the level this ability becomes available it should be reasonably possible for the monk to force a save-or-die mechanic by means of massive damage, and on a successful save the monk at least still deals a decent amount of damage and doesn't feel cheated out of their use of the ability.

Lots of possible buffs and rewrites that could improve the class. Absolutely do not use them all at once.

As for decent builds to optimize a monk as is, I've never actually played one myself, but I've seen a VoP saint monk tear up a battlefield before.

[King of Nowhere]

and denies you to flurry and stunning, since it ain't a monk weapon. better stick to Necklace of Natural Attacks..

Those who read the entire discussion should start to see a pattern now. How misinformed most people are when it comes to 3.5 monk optimization... It's so sad..

on the other hand, if you can get a caster to use (greater) magic weapon (or fang, both work on monk) on you, you are fine.
I get a (greater) mage armor from the wizard and a (greater) magic weapon from the cleric. I know some people get touchy on the topic because HOW YOU DARE TO ASK ME FOR A SPELL PLAY A SPELLCASTER NEXT TIME MARTIALS SUCK AND THEY SHOULD SUCK AND YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED FOR MAKING ONE AND BOTHERING ME, but really, it's one low level spell each by the time they get dozens, I've never met a gamer who would turn down a kind request.
those two spells help you a lot with numbers. my to-hit is not great, but i can hit most opponents with mediocre rolls. especially because i can also trip most of them for another +4. my stunning fists land most of the times, the dc is not irresistible but still one more chance that the opponent will roll low and be screwed. against a low-AC opponent i deal almost as much damage as the fighter.

anyway, even if gauntlets are not a monk weapon, you could still get a custom item to get an enhancement bonus to your monk attack. Sure, there's nothing of the sort in the book, but there's also rules to craft new items in the book, and this is item replicates a spell or an ability of a different weapon; only the most restrictive DM would call it "homebrew".

And speaking of homebrew... many people suggested giving the monk full BAB. I disagree. giving the monk full BAB would make it more similar to any other melee class.
I'd instead give the monk higher AC bonus (say, +2 at first level, +1 every 3 levels) and a bonus to cambat manuevers (maybe +2 at first level and +1 every 5 levels). This helps the monk gain his niche of the guy who dodges a lot while tripping/grappling/disarming people. Which is exactly what martial artists do in movies, and it is the role i'd envision for the monk. not a primary damage dealer, but a primary battle controller and tank

[JNAProductions]

on the other hand, if you can get a caster to use (greater) magic weapon (or fang, both work on monk) on you, you are fine.
I get a (greater) mage armor from the wizard and a (greater) magic weapon from the cleric. I know some people get touchy on the topic because HOW YOU DARE TO ASK ME FOR A SPELL PLAY A SPELLCASTER NEXT TIME MARTIALS SUCK AND THEY SHOULD SUCK AND YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED FOR MAKING ONE AND BOTHERING ME, but really, it's one low level spell each by the time they get dozens, I've never met a gamer who would turn down a kind request.
those two spells help you a lot with numbers. my to-hit is not great, but i can hit most opponents with mediocre rolls. especially because i can also trip most of them for another +4. my stunning fists land most of the times, the dc is not irresistible but still one more chance that the opponent will roll low and be screwed. against a low-AC opponent i deal almost as much damage as the fighter.

anyway, even if gauntlets are not a monk weapon, you could still get a custom item to get an enhancement bonus to your monk attack. Sure, there's nothing of the sort in the book, but there's also rules to craft new items in the book, and this is item replicates a spell or an ability of a different weapon; only the most restrictive DM would call it "homebrew".

And speaking of homebrew... many people suggested giving the monk full BAB. I disagree. giving the monk full BAB would make it more similar to any other melee class.
I'd instead give the monk higher AC bonus (say, +2 at first level, +1 every 3 levels) and a bonus to cambat manuevers (maybe +2 at first level and +1 every 5 levels). This helps the monk gain his niche of the guy who dodges a lot while tripping/grappling/disarming people. Which is exactly what martial artists do in movies, and it is the role i'd envision for the monk. not a primary damage dealer, but a primary battle controller and tank

I think it's reasonable to say "Every class should be able to stand on its own." If you have to get buffs from friendly casters to be on-par, you're not good.

But, at the same time, it's also a team game. So while I certainly wouldn't go into a random convention table or whatever with a Monk and expect buffs from the casters, if you're just mucking around with friends, asking them to prepare/learn a few buffs for you shouldn't be a huge deal.

Edit: You should probably also get them Pearls of Power for the buff spells. They likely won't use it on those exact spells, but it's only fair.

[martixy]

Why are these boards never a fan of the simple answers:
Unchained Monk

[King of Nowhere]

I think it's reasonable to say "Every class should be able to stand on its own." If you have to get buffs from friendly casters to be on-par, you're not good.


I actually disagree with that principle, and come from the opposite direction: "every class should work better with teamplay than it does alone". exactly because it's a team game and the mechanics should encourage team gaming. if your class can do everything and you don't get any benefit from cooperating with your fellows, then the system is flawed (and yes, we all know the system really is flawed, but it's no reason to encourage it)

sure, a martial could spend a fortune to get items to replicate all the useful low level buffs. a caster can provide those buffs for free.
a caster can spend half of his daily spells to protect himself in melee. a martial can protect him and let him save resources.
I consider the fact that the caster can protect himself better than the martial can to be a design flaw on casters, and the fact that the martial can't protect his buddy better to be a flaw of martials.

anyway, back to the monk standing on his own, you can replicate those spells with items like any other martials, but it's quite expensive and it hurts your effectiveness in other areas.

[Monsterpoodle]

I have been thinking about monks and their role. Seems to me they are a support player, they can support the rogue by being able to sneak, they can support the fighter a bit.
I worked out (IMVHO) what their niche is if built correctly.
Their job is to nuetralise humanoid creatures.

They have good movement, and usually acrobatics and stunning fist. Their job is to tumble, or leap through the combat, grapple or trip, the bad guy, and get in close to either stop them from spellcasting or use their weapon and then beat the snot out of them with flurry of blows when they lose their dodge bonus. That plate mail makes a touch attack pretty easy and you can't use a longsword if you are being grappled.

If only grappling worked slightly better.

Could you do this with another class? Sure, a fighter could do it, a rogue with a dagger could do it (maybe). It does seem a role that would be particularly well-suited to a monk though.

As for monk combinations I think monk/druid would be amazing. A monk1/druid1 with barkskin and shillelagh on his quarter staff is now on a par with most martials at 2nd, with potentially a higher armour class, and equivalent damage and better movement and saves. I am sure there are many other good combos but this seems pretty cool to me.

[InvisibleBison]

As for monk combinations I think monk/druid would be amazing. A monk1/druid1 with barkskin and shillelagh on his quarter staff is now on a par with most martials at 2nd, with potentially a higher armour class, and equivalent damage and better movement and saves. I am sure there are many other good combos but this seems pretty cool to me.

Barkskin is a 2nd level spell. But even if it was 1st level, I'd have a hard time calling a build that only works for one minute per day "awesome".

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, there's always the massive amounts of serious optimization (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial) you could squeeze out of it. (This one (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863) is my favorite.)

Monk has a surprisingly high optimization ceiling compared to other tier 5/6s, despite nearly straddling the line between the two tiers. Still, it only requires 1-2 levels to get everything out of it, but those 1-2 levels can give you absolutely MASSIVE gains for such a small dip.

[ngilop]

I actually disagree with that principle, and come from the opposite direction: "every class should work better with teamplay than it does alone". exactly because it's a team game and the mechanics should encourage team gaming. if your class can do everything and you don't get any benefit from cooperating with your fellows, then the system is flawed (and yes, we all know the system really is flawed, but it's no reason to encourage it)

sure, a martial could spend a fortune to get items to replicate all the useful low level buffs. a caster can provide those buffs for free.
a caster can spend half of his daily spells to protect himself in melee. a martial can protect him and let him save resources.
I consider the fact that the caster can protect himself better than the martial can to be a design flaw on casters, and the fact that the martial can't protect his buddy better to be a flaw of martials.

anyway, back to the monk standing on his own, you can replicate those spells with items like any other martials, but it's quite expensive and it hurts your effectiveness in other areas.

I both agree and disagree with JNA assertion, and yours as well.

I think that while D&D is a TEAM game and one should, reasonably I might add, be expected to provide resources of one sort or another to better the TEAM, one should also not be completely worthless without those same resources spent from other teammates.

You have to provide some worth to the team and not just be a sink for the other members wile not having any positive. But, like.. I Understand that is not a very popular stance to have nowadays so, take it how you will.

[Gruftzwerg]

anyway, even if gauntlets are not a monk weapon, you could still get a custom item to get an enhancement bonus to your monk attack. Sure, there's nothing of the sort in the book, but there's also rules to craft new items in the book, and this is item replicates a spell or an ability of a different weapon; only the most restrictive DM would call it "homebrew".
as mentioned several times in this thread, you don't need any custom items. You just need "Necklace of Natural Attacks". This can target either one of your natural attacks or your unarmed strike and can be enchanted like any other melee weapon. Really no need for homebrew item..



Monk has a surprisingly high optimization ceiling compared to other tier 5/6s, despite nearly straddling the line between the two tiers. Still, it only requires 1-2 levels to get everything out of it, but those 1-2 levels can give you absolutely MASSIVE gains for such a small dip.

This, you just need to know what works for monks and where (prc, item, feat..) to get it.

e.g. getting unarmed dmg of a monk 20:
+ 7 (prestige) class lvls worth of monk unarmed dmg
+ Monk's Belt add +5lvls of progress
+ 3 lvls Fist of the Forest gives 2 steps progress for monk

This means, that at lvl10 you can already hit like a monk 20. Add a Necklace of Natural Attacks + Sizing and you can have a colossal unarmed strike which strikes for 12d8 for a -8 penalty to hit. This is on average ~43 extra dmg for the penalty (over 5 extra dmg on average per penalty point to hit; compare to Power Attack which needs a bunch of feats to get these trade offs).

or get UMD as class skill via apprentice and use wands to buff yourself instead of asking that pointy-hat guy. Or just dip into other classes to use their wands without UMD, there are so many options..

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unfortunately, a monk 20 only has 11 points of average die damage without a lot of effort. The Str bonus doesn't mean much, since you don't get to multiply your Str score at all and can't usually afford a decent Str score anyway, since you've got to spread your points around a LOT. You can get better average damage by level 1 with a 2-hander with, say, a barbarian, since you can afford a higher Str, and buying a 2-handed martial weapon isn't exactly expensive, even for a level 1 character.

Putting that much effort and that many resources into getting monk 20 base damage is a pretty pitiful return on your investment, honestly. Boosting that to 12d8 is better, but still not great, and it costs even more effort.

[Next day edit] Sorry, this is really unclear. See my post below (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24402490&postcount=53) for clarification.

[Gruftzwerg]

Unfortunately, a monk 20 only has 11 points of average die damage without a lot of effort. The Str bonus doesn't mean much, since you don't get to multiply your Str score at all and can't usually afford a decent Str score anyway, since you've got to spread your points around a LOT. You can get better average damage by level 1 with a 2-hander and the same Str score with, say, a barbarian, since you can afford a higher Str, and buying a 2-handed martial weapon isn't exactly expensive, even for a level 1 character.

Putting that much effort and that many resources into getting monk 20 base damage is a pretty pitiful return on your investment, honestly. Boosting that to 12d8 is better, but still not great, and it costs even more effort.

more effort? 7 10 monk related class levels (and we are talking about "making monks work", so that shouldn't be an issue here^^) + monk's belt & +1 sizing.. yeah and that's it. The base cost of the Necklace of Natural Attacks is 600g IIRC which is slightly more expensive than a masterwork weapon.
Is that really to much effort?
- A better dmg scaling than PA with several feats
- benefits from charge multipier
- IIRC beside from lances, the sole other weapon that gets extra charge multiplier via "Sandals of the Tiger Leap" for a mere 3.5k
- add valorous weapon enhancement for a total of x3 charge multiplier
- if you change your unarmed dmg to slash/piercing somehow and can fly (something that is already mandatory), you can make Dive Attacks for a total of x4.

How does 36d8 (with a x3charge) or 48d8 (with a x4 diving charge) sound? Get some claws somehow and add Beast Strike to double dip the sizing effect and charge multipliers.

Sure you won't get everything at once, but that's the same for other builds too. Especially ubercharger build up power with each feat/ability/item stacked. Why should it not be the same for a monk ubercharger.

And last but not least, monks, qualify for dipping Drunken Master for 2lvls. This gives Stagger and enables any kind of direction changes while charging (e.g. back & forth, a looping..) to charge under almost any circumstances. You can charge enemies right next to you. Charge multipliers every round.

Get pounce via barb acf dip or with Lion Tribe Warrior feat (since unarmed attacks are light weapons) without the waste of a lvl.

Imho monk just differs in they they build. Here and there they come a bit short, but make up in their own niche way. It's just hard to find those gems and fit em together.
Simple said, monk optimization is about knowing all the obscure and niche monk related stuff... -.-

[OrbanSirgen]

if you change your unarmed dmg to slash/piercing somehow

Versatile Unarmed Strike from PHB2 let's you change the damage from unarmed strikes as a swift action...

[Telonius]

I managed to dig up one of my monk fixes. Spoilered here.

Reworked Monk

Remove alignment requirements.
BAB increases to 1 per level.
Weapon Proficiencies: add Gauntlet, Spiked Gauntlet, and Unarmed Strike.
Monk Weapons: add Gauntlet and Spiked Gauntlet.
A Monk can spend time, money, and XP enchanting her own body as though she had the Craft Magic Weapon and Armor feat. Instead of using the gold for magical reagents, it’s spent on expensive incense that’s burned during a special meditation. Treat the Monk as an equivalent-level spellcaster for the purposes of prerequisite caster levels. If any spellcaster of equivalent level would normally be capable of casting an enchantment prerequisite, the Monk is capable of giving herself the enchantment. For example, Acid Resistance requires the Resist Energy spell. A third-level Cleric could cast the spell, so a third-level Monk could self-enchant it. (She would still need the appropriate amount of gold and XP). This applies only to the Monk's own enchantments; she cannot provide assistance to any other character creating a magic weapon or armor. Track Weapon and Armor enhancements separately.

A Monk adds a bonus equal to her Monk level/5 (minimum 1) to all Grapple checks.

At 4th level, a Monk gains the following ability:
Channel ki (Su) A Monk wielding either a Monk weapon or a Ki Focus weapon may use the monk’s unarmed damage (if higher than the weapon’s regular damage) on any successful attack roll.

At 5th level, a Monk may use the Flurry of Blows ability as a Standard Action.

At 8th level, a Monk is treated as one size category larger than her normal size for the purposes of Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Trip, Overrun, and Sunder checks. At 14th level, the Monk is treated as two categories larger. This ability stacks with any magical size change (such as Enlarge or Reduce Person, or similar effects).

At 10th level, a Monk adds her Wisdom modifier (if positive) as a bonus to damage when using Monk weapons or Unarmed Strikes.

Replace the Abundant Step ability at 12th level with the following:
Walk on the Clouds (Su). At 12th level or higher, a monk can take to the air, as if using the spell Air Walk, for a number of rounds per day equal to her Monk level plus her Wisdom modifier. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. For purposes of dispelling, her caster level is equal to her Monk level.

The Quivering Palm ability is usable once per day. If the Monk successfully strikes the foe, the Monk must make a Concentration check. The result of this check is the fortitude save DC.

Perfect Self: Damage Reduction changes to 10/Adamantine.

[AnimeTheCat]

is the point of this to make a good character using the monk class or is the point to fix the monk class?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

more effort? 7 10 monk related class levels (and we are talking about "making monks work", so that shouldn't be an issue here^^) + monk's belt & +1 sizing.. yeah and that's it. The base cost of the Necklace of Natural Attacks is 600g IIRC which is slightly more expensive than a masterwork weapon.
Is that really to much effort?
- A better dmg scaling than PA with several feats
- benefits from charge multipier
- IIRC beside from lances, the sole other weapon that gets extra charge multiplier via "Sandals of the Tiger Leap" for a mere 3.5k
- add valorous weapon enhancement for a total of x3 charge multiplier
- if you change your unarmed dmg to slash/piercing somehow and can fly (something that is already mandatory), you can make Dive Attacks for a total of x4.

How does 36d8 (with a x3charge) or 48d8 (with a x4 diving charge) sound? Get some claws somehow and add Beast Strike to double dip the sizing effect and charge multipliers.

Sure you won't get everything at once, but that's the same for other builds too. Especially ubercharger build up power with each feat/ability/item stacked. Why should it not be the same for a monk ubercharger.

And last but not least, monks, qualify for dipping Drunken Master for 2lvls. This gives Stagger and enables any kind of direction changes while charging (e.g. back & forth, a looping..) to charge under almost any circumstances. You can charge enemies right next to you. Charge multipliers every round.

Get pounce via barb acf dip or with Lion Tribe Warrior feat (since unarmed attacks are light weapons) without the waste of a lvl.

Imho monk just differs in they they build. Here and there they come a bit short, but make up in their own niche way. It's just hard to find those gems and fit em together.
Simple said, monk optimization is about knowing all the obscure and niche monk related stuff... -.-Sorry; that could've been a lot clearer. I was tired but wired when I posted that. My point is that it takes a lot of optimization and resources to get anywhere with a monk, but it has HUGE dividends when you put in the work, while it takes very little effort with, say, a barbarian to get a good amount of return, but the overall return generally isn't as high for larger amounts of effort.

Monk is really weird that way.

Plus, unless you're really stacking on the ACFs*, there's almost no reason whatsoever to take monk past 2, and zero reason at all to take it past 6. And even then, it's entirely due to the prereq-less bonus feat, which by that point is very nearly a sunk-cost fallacy, considering what else you could get for those last 4 levels.




*Emphasizing for emphasis.

[Troacctid]

How is there zero reason to take it past 6? Monk 7 is arguably the best level in the entire class.

[heavyfuel]

How is there zero reason to take it past 6? Monk 7 is arguably the best level in the entire class.

The ability to heal a modicum of HP/day as a Standard Action on yourself only and +1 BAB is better than a Bonus Feat, Evasion. +1 BAB, and +1 to all saves?

The action cost of Wholeness of Body gives it a very niche use in combat, and out of combat it's outdone by a couple of charges from a Wand of Lesser Vigor

Lv 2 is clearly where it's at.

[Vaern]

Why are these boards never a fan of the simple answers:
Unchained Monk
I haven't played Pathfinder and haven't read a whole lot of Pathfinder content, so I generally respond to monk threads purely from the perspective of what is readily available for 3.5, and to that end it's necessary to start from scratch when it comes to fixing monks.
You know, despite the fact that Pathfinder classes are more or less completely compatible with 3.5 mechanics.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho Greater Flurry is also nice, but you need 11 lvls of flurry progress. But on the other hand, lets say compared to TWF feat line: The twf feat line costs 3 feats to give you 3 offhand attacks all add a penalty of -2 to all attacks. While Greater Flurry only gives you 2 extra attacks, these are at your max BAB and thus much more likely to hit with. And if to hit is not a problem (due to high ability score or whatsoever) you could still add twf feats for even more attacks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How is there zero reason to take it past 6? Monk 7 is arguably the best level in the entire class....Er...

...No?

2x your monk level in hp healed per day is pitiful. A single charge from a wand of lesser vigor gets nearly that much at level 7, isn't even a quarter of your hp (assuming a halfway decent Con), and if you want more out of it you have to take more levels of monk, which takes the sunk-cost fallacy to whole new levels. Otherwise, it's basically worthless.

A single level of cleric would give you more healing for the same amount of effort (and isn't self-only), and you'd get access to tons more goodies, as well, in the form of, y'know, spells. Not to mention the armor and shield feats you could DCFS away, the weapon proficiencies, and the two (or three) domains, which could be worth a few more feats.

I'm seriously not seeing the draw, there.

[Monsterpoodle]

Barkskin is a 2nd level spell. But even if it was 1st level, I'd have a hard time calling a build that only works for one minute per day "awesome".

LOL... Fair call. Although if you add up all the time during a day that mages are actually casting spells then they are often only "awesome" for minutes a day too. ;)

[heavyfuel]

LOL... Fair call. Although if you add up all the time during a day that mages are actually casting spells then they are often only "awesome" for minutes a day too. ;)

Even if you had at-will barkskin, +2 AC doesn't make anyone "awesome". It's not bad to have, but being slightly harder to hit isn't "awesome" by any measure.

Despite that, casters are actually "awesome" for much longer. Spells with 1 hour/lv duration aren't rare, and neither are spells that last much longer (instantenous and permanent spells). Even then, spells with shorter durations are often extremely strong. Strong enough that their low durations play no effect on their awesomeness.

[AvatarVecna]

...Er...

...No?

2x your monk level in hp healed per day is pitiful. A single charge from a wand of lesser vigor gets nearly that much at level 7, isn't even a quarter of your hp (assuming a halfway decent Con), and if you want more out of it you have to take more levels of monk, which takes the sunk-cost fallacy to whole new levels. Otherwise, it's basically worthless.

A single level of cleric would give you vastly more healing for the same amount of effort (and isn't self-only), and you'd get access to tons more goodies, as well, in the form of, y'know, spells. Not to mention the armor and shield feats you could DCFS away, the weapon proficiencies, and the two (or three) domains, which could be worth a few more feats.

I'm seriously not seeing the draw, there.

I think the draw of Monk 7 is the not-written-in-that-quote "with the Dark Moon Disciple ACF".

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I think the draw of Monk 7 is the not-written-in-that-quote "with the Dark Moon Disciple ACF".Note that I did say that Monk 7+ is only viable with heavy use of hallucinogens ACFs.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Plus, unless you're really stacking on the AMFs*, there's almost no reason whatsoever to take monk past 2, and zero reason at all to take it past 6. And even then, it's entirely due to the prereq-less bonus feat, which by that point is very nearly a sunk-cost fallacy, considering what else you could get for those last 4 levels.



How is there zero reason to take it past 6? Monk 7 is arguably the best level in the entire class.

The 7th level Dark Moon Disciple ACF is one of the best class features in all of 3.5, giving you permanent total concealment that (most likely) can't be penetrated by true seeing. As long as you adventure at night (or underground, or indoors, or in a forest with any kind of shade, or...) it can only be countered by opponents that a) have daylight available and b) realize that daylight will counter you. I assume this is what Troacctid was referring to, as it's possible to make entire builds centered on this one ability (+Darkstalker, of course).

If you've already gone that far, it may be worthwhile to go up to 9th level as well, for Invisible Fist's second ability. If you have a Wisdom score of at least 16, it gives you permanent blink as long as you've got your immediate action available every three rounds. If you're going Sidewinder Monk, you also get an extra d6 of SA from 9th level.

10th level gives you a free soulmeld and chakra bind (Magic of Incarnum) if you're a Rilkan or (more likely) a Changeling with Racial Emulation. That's pretty sweet.

And 11th level gives you Greater Flurry, or an improvement to whatever you swapped it out for. I'd only recommend going this far if you already needed to go to at least level 9.

[Aotrs Commander]

I haven't played Pathfinder and haven't read a whole lot of Pathfinder content, so I generally respond to monk threads purely from the perspective of what is readily available for 3.5, and to that end it's necessary to start from scratch when it comes to fixing monks.
You know, despite the fact that Pathfinder classes are more or less completely compatible with 3.5 mechanics.

I hybridise 3.5 and PF more directly, but I have more or less (not quite entirely) dropped my previous monk houserules for PF's unchained monk, which is really great.

So great, in fact, I played through Pathfinder: Kingmkaer (the computer game) with a monk x/rogue 3/paladin 2 as more or less a straight "punch people lots" machine, which is notable, because it basicaly marks the first time ever I've not played a game as some sort of caster, like, ever.



I very much suggest to the OP that whether you're playing 3.5 or not to get your GM (or to allow it yourself if you are the GM) to use the Unchained Monk. The amount of effort to back convert is rather trivial.

(Sure, if you use one in a party with a 3.5 unmodified fighter, you'll make him look bad, but that's true of literally any other class; hell, fighter was the very first class up on my house-rule block...)

[Gnaeus]

I have been thinking about monks and their role. Seems to me they are a support player, they can support the rogue by being able to sneak, they can support the fighter a bit.
I worked out (IMVHO) what their niche is if built correctly.
Their job is to nuetralise humanoid creatures.

They have good movement, and usually acrobatics and stunning fist. Their job is to tumble, or leap through the combat, grapple or trip, the bad guy, and get in close to either stop them from spellcasting or use their weapon and then beat the snot out of them with flurry of blows when they lose their dodge bonus. That plate mail makes a touch attack pretty easy and you can't use a longsword if you are being grappled.

If only grappling worked slightly better .

The real problem there is that monks don’t grapple well. Mid bab+mad mean that while you can touch that enemy fighter, you probably can’t grapple him at equal level. Among the other things that work better than monk is a fighter using his feats to pretend to be a monk.




As for monk combinations I think monk/druid would be amazing. A monk1/druid1 with barkskin and shillelagh on his quarter staff is now on a par with most martials at 2nd, with potentially a higher armour class, and equivalent damage and better movement and saves. I am sure there are many other good combos but this seems pretty cool to me.

Heres the problem. Monk does add a bit to Druid 1. But every level of monk after and maybe including 1 is worse than the corresponding level of Druid. Monk 5/Druid 5 is worse than monk 3/druid7 is worse than monk 1/Druid 9. Yeah, melee druids enjoy wis to AC and possibly (cheese tolerance permitting) doing unarmed strikes while wildshaped. But the less monk, the better it works. And what you wind up with, optimally, looks more like a Druid with a lost caster level than a monk.

[Troacctid]

Note that I did say that Monk 7+ is only viable with heavy use of hallucinogens ACFs.
You said AMFs.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You said AMFs.It was a typo.

And I have no idea what you're talking about. <.<

[Psyren]

I haven't played Pathfinder and haven't read a whole lot of Pathfinder content, so I generally respond to monk threads purely from the perspective of what is readily available for 3.5, and to that end it's necessary to start from scratch when it comes to fixing monks.
You know, despite the fact that Pathfinder classes are more or less completely compatible with 3.5 mechanics.

It's (legally) free so there's no reason not to at least take a look I'd say. Unchained Monk (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained)

[Calthropstu]

Yeah, those monks should work just like everyone else damn it!.

For too long we have allowed them to act on their own and live without a care. Spiritual enlightenment they say. Find inner peace they say, but they sit there and meditate on the generous donations of everyone else. What makes them so special? They should get jobs those lazy bums!

Disclaimer: I may have only read the thread title when typing this.

[Lans]

If you perfectly use ACFs you can get a monk that is workable. Martial Monk can get you Weapon Supremacy at level 1 boosting your accuracy and AC and 2 other fighter feats, Invisible fist, holy strike and I think PHB2 gave the monk 2 bonus feats through the back door.

If you talk your DM into giving you double the point buy you won't be overshadowed by a swordsage

[Troacctid]

Also, Soulwarp Strike deserves more respect than it gets. Changing your Stunning Strike from Fortitude negates to Fortitude partial while also making it bypass stun immunity? That's a pretty sizeable upgrade, IMO. Biggest drawback, of course, is that it doesn't interact with things that care about Stunning Strike.

[Esprit15]

The way I often make monk workable is to dip into Paladin until I get Turn Undead. Take Ascetic Knight, Serenity, Travel Devotion, and Intuitive Attack. Run everything you can off of Wisdom, and use your Turn Undead to power Travel Devotion. The free action movement allows you to get your full attack on an enemy, which with your attacks running off of your (hopefully) high Wisdom, might actually hit something. If you're the type to go for Saint, that's even more Wisdom synergy.

[Gruftzwerg]

The way I often make monk workable is to dip into Paladin until I get Turn Undead. Take Ascetic Knight, Serenity, Travel Devotion, and Intuitive Attack. Run everything you can off of Wisdom, and use your Turn Undead to power Travel Devotion. The free action movement allows you to get your full attack on an enemy, which with your attacks running off of your (hopefully) high Wisdom, might actually hit something. If you're the type to go for Saint, that's even more Wisdom synergy.

do you really do that? I mean, imho you waste a bunch of resources to emulate a half backed pounce. The important part of pounce ain't the move+full attack trick. It's the dmg multipliers that are available for charge. Without the charge multipliers the investments are not worth it. Why waste so much instead of straight going for a way to get pounce?

I'm not talking about the Wisdom related stuff, these can be nice if you tailor your build around it. Just the movement+full attack part I feel uncomfortable.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you have all the charge multipliers, you don't really need pounce. You're doing such obscene damage that hitting more than once is liable to be overkill with a -lot- of enemies.

If you don't, then the ability to make a full attack and move becomes much more important, regardless of how you get there; particularly if you're going the punches-in-bunches route ala flurry.

[JNAProductions]

If you have all the charge multipliers, you don't really need pounce. You're doing such obscene damage that hitting more than once is liable to be overkill with a -lot- of enemies.

If you don't, then the ability to make a full attack and move becomes much more important, regardless of how you get there; particularly if you're going the punches-in-bunches route ala flurry.

Although having a 1/20 chance (at minimum) of failing to kill the enemy will get you in the end.

Whereas with Pounce, if every blow is a killing blow, you can go as high as a 159,999/160,000 chance! And that's just off BAB alone!

[Esprit15]

do you really do that? I mean, imho you waste a bunch of resources to emulate a half backed pounce. The important part of pounce ain't the move+full attack trick. It's the dmg multipliers that are available for charge. Without the charge multipliers the investments are not worth it. Why waste so much instead of straight going for a way to get pounce?

I'm not talking about the Wisdom related stuff, these can be nice if you tailor your build around it. Just the movement+full attack part I feel uncomfortable.

If I wanted to be a badass with a weapon, I would play a Barbarian or a Warblade. If I want to play someone who fights unarmed, that's the route I like to go, if I don't go with an unarmed Swordsage. Plus, pounce requires a straight line.

Also, it's how the whole build works by allowing you to be less ability dependent. Pumping more points into Wisdom because you're not as worried about Strength lets you keep a higher AC, a higher DC for Stunning Fist, even better saves so that you're harder to pin down, etc. Travel Devotion lets you then move around the battlefield while still doing some acceptable levels of damage by not removing your ability to Flurry. You're not the primary damage dealer, you're the guy who stuns enemies so that the Big Stupid Fighter can power attack them more easily, or the rogue can Sneak Attack them while you're doing something else, like setting up their next target.

I tend to play monks as an annoyer, not a big damage dealer.

EDIT: Also, yeah, as others said, multipliers make charge plenty. And the point was to make Monks work, not to make other classes do Monk better.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Although having a 1/20 chance (at minimum) of failing to kill the enemy will get you in the end.


Whereas with Pounce, if every blow is a killing blow, you can go as high as a 159,999/160,000 chance! And that's just off BAB alone!

Any non-zero chance of failure will get you in the end eventually. That's just how probabiliity works. Unless the enemy hits just as hard, that one in twenty is just the chance it'll take you two rounds instead of one unless you really have neglected mobility options altogether. Big deal.

If the enemy -does- hit just as hard as you, then you can still get tagged on initiative.

You don't like playing the odds, stop playing games with dice. You can get pretty close to diceless with a buffer caster.

As for the OP's conundrum, I've found the easiest solution to fixing the "problems" listed is just to play an athasian human. You get a handful of powers and your ML scales to character level. Pick up inertial armor, metaphysical weapon, and hustle with racials, hidden talent, and expanded knowledge and you're golden. Mobility, to-hit, and AC all without sacrificing a single class level. The handful of extra powers you get from racials is just gravy.

[Gruftzwerg]

If I wanted to be a badass with a weapon, I would play a Barbarian or a Warblade. If I want to play someone who fights unarmed, that's the route I like to go, if I don't go with an unarmed Swordsage. Plus, pounce requires a straight line.

Also, it's how the whole build works by allowing you to be less ability dependent. Pumping more points into Wisdom because you're not as worried about Strength lets you keep a higher AC, a higher DC for Stunning Fist, even better saves so that you're harder to pin down, etc. Travel Devotion lets you then move around the battlefield while still doing some acceptable levels of damage by not removing your ability to Flurry. You're not the primary damage dealer, you're the guy who stuns enemies so that the Big Stupid Fighter can power attack them more easily, or the rogue can Sneak Attack them while you're doing something else, like setting up their next target.

I tend to play monks as an annoyer, not a big damage dealer.

EDIT: Also, yeah, as others said, multipliers make charge plenty. And the point was to make Monks work, not to make other classes do Monk better.


how shall I put it into words...
I guess the simplest way would be to just showcase how easy and effective monk chargers can get:

1. Pounce
You don't need to dip Barb1. There are also feats for light weapon pounce, which is enough for the needs of an unarmed monk.

2. "Drunken Master 2" dip (not the movie^^). Gives you "Stagger" which allows any amount of direction changes while charging. Enemy right in you face? Well, just take a few steps back and charge (in the same turn) or if you can fly, make a looping for dive/charge/pounce attack. DM2 allows you to charge every round under almost any circumstances. It will assure you pounce every turn.

3. Sandals of the Tiger Leap, gives you double dmg on unarmed charges. Besides from Lances (and dive attacks), the sole other weapon category that gets full charge multiplier (and not just PA multiplier like with Leap Attack). who needs 2h PA when your entire charge dmg gets doubled? Add "Versatile Unarmed Strike" to change your US into slashing weapons for extra diving charge multiplier for a total of x3!

4. Sizing your unarmed (beast?) strikes to colossal and applying charge multipliers will raise even a monks dmg per attack into high lvls.

5. The flurry of misses myth
Only applies if you dip monk and don't push it to lvl11. Sure having 11 lvls of flurry is a not so easy task, given the few number of prc that progress it further. But if you get Greater flurry you get 2 extra attacks at max BAB with 0 penalty. Much better than TWF and you could still add TWF feat line on it (my ShurikeNado build makes use of this). And with the remaining 9 lvls you could still reach BAB16+ if optimized for it. And as a last note, that on epic lvls a build with optimized gr.flurry BAB16+ and perfect TWF could have 12 attacks per turn. Gr. Flurry is a really good consistent DPS boost.

Again the question, why waste so much on "non pounce mobility", if monk can easily get it and profit so much from it?

[Ken Murikumo]

1. Pounce
You don't need to dip Barb1. There are also feats for light weapon pounce, which is enough for the needs of an unarmed monk.

3. Sandals of the Tiger Leap, gives you double dmg on unarmed charges. Besides from Lances (and dive attacks), the sole other weapon category that gets full charge multiplier (and not just PA multiplier like with Leap Attack). who needs 2h PA when your entire charge dmg gets doubled? Add "Versatile Unarmed Strike" to change your US into slashing weapons for extra diving charge multiplier for a total of x3!


1. What feats would those be? I know Pathfinder has Pummeling Style & Pummeling charge that together turn you into one-punch man, but that comes online at level 8 for monks.

3. I did not know about those. AFB but Google says their pretty cheap too.


But, everybody talking about how to improve the class got me thinking about it, so here are some of my thoughts on the matter. I'll spoiler my thoughts as to not clog up this post.

Most people have said to give monk full BAB; now i'm going to be weird and say otherwise (not that it isn't a great idea). Instead, how about giving them wisdom to both attack and damage. But only for monk weapons/UAS. And not in place of str or dex, IN ADDITION to. That way they get an immediate boost at low levels and by level 20 their BAB + wis would be equal to (if not better than) a full BAB class, assuming they don't neglect the wis. A side effect of this, too, is that they benefit from 2 stats being buffed. Like bulls strength & owls wisdom directly contribute to the monks offense where as only bulls strength would benefit a fighter/barbarian in the same manner. It's also kind of a way to circumvent not being able to stack like bonuses because it's an enhancement bonus to 2 different stats. If they had full bab, they would just be another full bab class. There is nothing inherently wrong with full BAB, but it is a little boring (mechanically); doing it with the 3/4 BAB + WIS opens up some unique opportunities that other classes generally don't come across. It also makes them less MAD. This won't make the class hit with 100% certainty and a fully decked out fighter or barbarian would most definitely have a better net attack bonus than this monk, but the disparity would be so much less than vanilla.

I also think they should get MORE attacks during a flurry. Like just one more @ max BAB at each increment. As for attack bonuses for flurry, Pathfinder Monks use their monk level to determine their attack bonus during a flurry, but they take the -2 dual-wielding penalty. 3.5 monks use their bab -2 then they lose penalties as time goes on. PF monk at lvl 20 has a flurry of +18... while 3.5 has +15... so using the PF progression is one way to improve the 3.5 flurry. But if we added the extra attack i mentioned and used the 3.5 progression with the wisdom thing i mentioned above, we could make it so monk does damage with law of averages. Just keep hammering attacks, eventually some will land. With medium-ish damage and tons of attacks, you probably won't out DPR a barbarian, but you'd probably see higher damage output overall. More chances to crit.

I play pathfinder, so i'm used to the PF version of monk. They automatically get stunning fist, rider effects for SF, more feats to choose from in their bonus feats list, & a Ki-pool. I HIGHLY recommend this for 3.5 monks. Unchained monk adds more options to use ki points on. I'd even add the Ki abilities of the qinggong archetype as normal Ki options.

They should also be able to replace the stat a skill is keyed to with wis. Like every 3-4 levels they can pick one skill and use wisdom to calculate their bonus with that skill. By lvl 20 they have 5 or 6 skills that use wisdom instead of whatever. Maybe even give the 4 + wis skill points each level instead of 4 + int, but that might be a touch too far.

Make them immune to ALL diseases. Also make them immune to poisons sooner.

Give the spell resistance sooner. I'd even give them 15 + monk level to calculate. That way it weighs in favor of the Monk. Give them stalwart (i think thats what it's called in PF) which is basically evasion for fortitude saves; all or none / half or none. Get mind blank and/or immunity to enchantments. Make them a fortress of the mind. By the end they become incredibly difficult to effect with spells.

Give them a feature that improves their crit range and/or multiplier with UAS or monk weapons. That'd be nice... Also, allow them to do UAS damage with monk weapons, so the monk would have a reason to use kamas or a staff. I don't recall ever seeing a monk use monk weapons (barring shuriken). It would also be a stopgap measure for the difficulties in enchanting UAS. Hell, add Ki abilities that give them +1 to +5 enhancement bonuses to their UAS and abilities to add other effects like flaming and stuff. Make the effects last minutes/monklvl instead of the weak ki abilities that allow you to do 1d6 fire damage for 1 round. Lets get crazy and make it hours per some denomination of wisdom/monklvl so it can last for a whole quest. Make them wild cards; give them interchangeable tools to deal with any manner of foe.

Let them punch through DR, like they can ignore 1/2 monklvl DR. Do it with hardness too, i've seen videos of monks & martial artist punching through things with relative ease. Maybe even give them DR to make them less dependent on con.

Somebody upthread mentioned something about changing Quivering Palm into die on a failed save, otherwise a damage attack that deals multiplicative damage. Pathfinder has a feat chain called pummeling style that allows you to pool all your attacks into one big attack, basically making all attack rolls, then rolling damage for each successful attack, then tallying all damage up for one big hit. Do this but make it a single touch attack, and multiply a single attacks worth of damage by the number of attacks you could make during a flurry. I'd rename this to 1 inch punch, too.

Ditch slow fall. I can't ever think of a time it was used. Replace it with something that allows you to roll a tumble and reduce damage way beyond normal. Like dc15 to reduce damage by 20 ft and allow increments as you level (dc20 to reduce 40 ft @ lvl 8, dc25 to reduce 60 ft @ lvl 12, or something).

5 ft step to 10 ft hop as a feature.

Increase their ac more or allow them to enchant their bodies as if it were armor to get those sweet armor abilities. Maybe do the same with UAS but that may clash with the mentioned Ki abilities.

Turn their healing ability into a Ki ability so they can use it repeatedly.

Some people have stated that they don't know what the monk's roll is supposed to be. That's fair given how mediocre/bad they are at everything in the game. But with some or all of the above, i think they could become a wild card. They can be ready for any enemy, they can do respectable DPR, and they can stand up to casters (within reason). Much of that can also alleviate the MAD issue. They would really only need Wisdom and some con. Every other stat becomes cake.

Getting back to the OP, I've played a few monks over the years, but most of them were "monks" and only dipped into the class to get some features. On the surface, the class seems like the easiest way to do lots of unarmed damage, so it's easy to see why those who are not well versed in the mechanics of the system would unquestionably go for it. Back in the day, we did a make-yourself-in-D&D campaign and I had gotten my black belt a year or 2 before the game, so of course i went with monk. Did all 20 levels, too. Back then we were VERY liberal with both the rules and experience so we finished that game at lvl 70; it was truly a train wreck, but in a spectacularly fun way.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

1. What feats would those be? I know Pathfinder has Pummeling Style & Pummeling charge that together turn you into one-punch man, but that comes online at level 8 for monks.


Snow Tiger Berserker (Unapproachable East pg 45) and Lion Tribe Warrior (Shining South pg 20). Lion Tribe Warrior is weirdly worded for TWF, but it should work fine for flurrying.

[Kelb_Panthera]

how shall I put it into words...
I guess the simplest way would be to just showcase how easy and effective monk chargers can get:

It's not without its issues though.


1. Pounce
You don't need to dip Barb1. There are also feats for light weapon pounce, which is enough for the needs of an unarmed monk.

In addition to the two you mentioned, there's also catfolk pounce. The problems, however, are that it and lion tribe warrior are both race-locked and snow tiger berserker requires rage. The latter two are regional feats to boot and the first only allows pounce against flat-footed foes.

In all cases, that's still a feat when you only get so many.

Even the barbarian's lion spirit totem pounce has the minor issue of technically being a supernatural ability (header for all the spirit totem abilities.)


2. "Drunken Master 2" dip (not the movie^^). Gives you "Stagger" which allows any amount of direction changes while charging. Enemy right in you face? Well, just take a few steps back and charge (in the same turn) or if you can fly, make a looping for dive/charge/pounce attack. DM2 allows you to charge every round under almost any circumstances. It will assure you pounce every turn.

Two more feats and they're both taxes. Dodge can at least be built on, albeit not to any great extent with the feat count on a monk based character. It's a good feature though, I won't argue that. Combined with acrobatic charge, you remove most of the charge restrictions and can move basically freely as long as you get 10 feet.


3. Sandals of the Tiger Leap, gives you double dmg on unarmed charges. Besides from Lances (and dive attacks), the sole other weapon category that gets full charge multiplier (and not just PA multiplier like with Leap Attack). who needs 2h PA when your entire charge dmg gets doubled? Add "Versatile Unarmed Strike" to change your US into slashing weapons for extra diving charge multiplier for a total of x3!

Neat. Gotta remember that one. Doesn't really matter though. Like I said, if you're stacking up multipliers like this you really don't need more than one attack. That, valorous weapon from a necklace of natural attacks, and the usual leap attack plus shocktrooper boosters get you up to some 4 times overall damage plus a 5th iteration of the PA bonus.

Let's call it level 9: so that's 4d10 +16 (str 16 and +1 enhancement) +30 (PA) makes 70 on average without even trying. Add collision to the weapon for another 20 and you're pretty much guaranteed to kill any classed humanoid of your level. That'll even kill or at least down most -creatures- up to a few CR higher than your level. It's a massive damage save, regardless.

You don't -need- pounce with this stuff.


4. Sizing your unarmed (beast?) strikes to colossal and applying charge multipliers will raise even a monks dmg per attack into high lvls.

I've always thought this one's questionable. Why, exactly, doesn't resizing your unarmed strike not apply the increase in handedness like it does for any other weapon? UAS is a light weapon so upping it by one size makes it one-handed, twice makes it two-handed, and three or more makes it unwieldable unless you have something like monkey grip or strongarm bracers. At least you get two-handed multipliers after two ups. With the above, it gets you into "kill anything vaguely level appropriate" territory.


5. The flurry of misses myth
Only applies if you dip monk and don't push it to lvl11. Sure having 11 lvls of flurry is a not so easy task, given the few number of prc that progress it further. But if you get Greater flurry you get 2 extra attacks at max BAB with 0 penalty. Much better than TWF and you could still add TWF feat line on it (my ShurikeNado build makes use of this). And with the remaining 9 lvls you could still reach BAB16+ if optimized for it. And as a last note, that on epic lvls a build with optimized gr.flurry BAB16+ and perfect TWF could have 12 attacks per turn. Gr. Flurry is a really good consistent DPS boost.

...

Do I really need to explain why this is such a weak argument? First, you're still taking a penalty until level 9 so that's nearly half of the game (probably a much greater proportion at most tables). That's assuming you take -no- levels that stunt that progression.

Then there's the problem of being an average base attack class leaving you with generally less accurate striking to begin with. Everything else being equal (HA!) you're at -3 over a TWF FIghter or ranger being at -2 up to level 11 for the same number of attacks. The point of BAB you lose over those classes coincides with the level your penalty is reduced so there's no net effect. If the fighter/ranger picks up imp TWF (and the ranger probably gets it as a feature) you're 5% less likely to hit -and- getting one fewer attacks.

You can stack it with TWF, sure, but at a total net -5 over a fighter just swinging on iteratives. You can even get freakin' crazy and combine flurry, an extra flurry by dipping sohei, twf, and lightning fists and throw out 6 attacks at level 11, albeit at a -7 penalty from your normal attack bonus and a -10 over the fighter's primary attack. I'd have to crunch the numbers to see if that's a remotely viable strategy though. I rather doubt it. At least you would certainly have a reason to -need- the ability to move and full attack if you're investing that much into it.


Again the question, why waste so much on "non pounce mobility", if monk can easily get it and profit so much from it?

Travel devotion and a source of turn attempts isn't that big an investment. That espirit15 chooses to go through paladin to get there is a personal preference, not a necessity.

[Troacctid]

My problem with Travel Devotion in specific is that you spend your swift action this turn to get the ability to spend another swift action to move next turn. Which means you don't get to move and full attack until the following turn—and if you moved up to the enemy this turn, you would already be able to do that. I think you can do a lot better with your swift actions, TBH.

I'd much rather use a magic item like quicksilver boots, belt of battle, or chronocharm of the horizon walker for my swift-action movement.

[Kelb_Panthera]

My problem with Travel Devotion in specific is that you spend your swift action this turn to get the ability to spend another swift action to move next turn. Which means you don't get to move and full attack until the following turn—and if you moved up to the enemy this turn, you would already be able to do that. I think you can do a lot better with your swift actions, TBH.

I'd much rather use a magic item like quicksilver boots, belt of battle, or chronocharm of the horizon walker for my swift-action movement.

You're not wrong, really. It's just got one of the better ranges for swift action movement; your full land speed value. Most other options are pretty limited in the distance you can cover. Belt of battle is a really good one though.

[Gruftzwerg]

It's not without its issues though.



In addition to the two you mentioned, there's also catfolk pounce. The problems, however, are that it and lion tribe warrior are both race-locked and snow tiger berserker requires rage. The latter two are regional feats to boot and the first only allows pounce against flat-footed foes.

In all cases, that's still a feat when you only get so many.

Even the barbarian's lion spirit totem pounce has the minor issue of technically being a supernatural ability (header for all the spirit totem abilities.)
Each method involves a price. Dips can also be difficult for some builds. You loose your regular progression, which can be crippling for some builds (caster, sneack attack, flurry...). Depending on what is more important, you can get pounce either via a barb dip or with feats. You have the option. As you do with Travel Devotion. get it via dip or feats.





Two more feats and they're both taxes. Dodge can at least be built on, albeit not to any great extent with the feat count on a monk based character. It's a good feature though, I won't argue that. Combined with acrobatic charge, you remove most of the charge restrictions and can move basically freely as long as you get 10 feet.
No need for Acrobatic Charge. "Stagger" also allows you to avoid all AoO from charging for a single DC15 tumble roll. Sure you have a feat tax. But think about any other ubercharger trying to emulate the same comfort to charge every turn. He would need several sources of swift teleports/jumps to be on par. It assures that you get the multipliers ever turn (up to x4 sandals, flying dive, valorous weapon). Imho it is worth the investment. Besides, DM also gives you the ability to win every drinking contest which is imho priceless^^





Neat. Gotta remember that one. Doesn't really matter though. Like I said, if you're stacking up multipliers like this you really don't need more than one attack. That, valorous weapon from a necklace of natural attacks, and the usual leap attack plus shocktrooper boosters get you up to some 4 times overall damage plus a 5th iteration of the PA bonus.

Let's call it level 9: so that's 4d10 +16 (str 16 and +1 enhancement) +30 (PA) makes 70 on average without even trying. Add collision to the weapon for another 20 and you're pretty much guaranteed to kill any classed humanoid of your level. That'll even kill or at least down most -creatures- up to a few CR higher than your level. It's a massive damage save, regardless.

You don't -need- pounce with this stuff.
?Why I should stop after killing a single enemy per turn? Where is the logic behind that? You try to charge into the mid of the enemies, where you can kill as many stuff as you can hit. Each hit is a one shot. We are talking about optimization here I thought. The ubergoal for optimizing in killing stuff is to kill everything in a single turn if possible.

edit:
heck, I would even think about getting both, pounce and travel devotion, but not sole TD. Together you could move freely between your attacks to make full use of pounce despite the positioning of your enemies.




I've always thought this one's questionable. Why, exactly, doesn't resizing your unarmed strike not apply the increase in handedness like it does for any other weapon? UAS is a light weapon so upping it by one size makes it one-handed, twice makes it two-handed, and three or more makes it unwieldable unless you have something like monkey grip or strongarm bracers. At least you get two-handed multipliers after two ups. With the above, it gets you into "kill anything vaguely level appropriate" territory.
Nope

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike)
The way it is worded it is a hard rule. You still suffer -2 to hit due to "inappropriate size" per size category difference (-8 for colossal as medium character). But it will always remain a light weapon. And this mean, you can't get to use your unarmed attacks as 2h as you described.





...

Do I really need to explain why this is such a weak argument? First, you're still taking a penalty until level 9 so that's nearly half of the game (probably a much greater proportion at most tables). That's assuming you take -no- levels that stunt that progression.

Then there's the problem of being an average base attack class leaving you with generally less accurate striking to begin with. Everything else being equal (HA!) you're at -3 over a TWF FIghter or ranger being at -2 up to level 11 for the same number of attacks. The point of BAB you lose over those classes coincides with the level your penalty is reduced so there's no net effect. If the fighter/ranger picks up imp TWF (and the ranger probably gets it as a feature) you're 5% less likely to hit -and- getting one fewer attacks.

You can stack it with TWF, sure, but at a total net -5 over a fighter just swinging on iteratives. You can even get freakin' crazy and combine flurry, an extra flurry by dipping sohei, twf, and lightning fists and throw out 6 attacks at level 11, albeit at a -7 penalty from your normal attack bonus and a -10 over the fighter's primary attack. I'd have to crunch the numbers to see if that's a remotely viable strategy though. I rather doubt it. At least you would certainly have a reason to -need- the ability to move and full attack if you're investing that much into it.
The argument was under the assumption if you "push it to lvl11" and compared with TWF. And not every TWF build is a full BAB class, hello rogues. They also are a 3/4 BAB class which often take the TWF line. If rogues can still hit on a reliable base, so can monks. And nobody forces you to use it for every fight. If you should face a real high AC enemy from time to time, don't use it for that few fights until you have enough attack bonuses from other sources than BAB.
Most builds hit on a reliable base due to ability score modifier for the first few levels (incl. full BAB classes). So your argument is flawed to some degree here.
Since I only compared Flurry vs TWF and not 3/4 BAB against full BAB, lets look further into my example and lets compare it with a TWF rogue.
At lvl 11 the twf rogue has a +8/+3 BAB and thus would have +6/+1 +6/+1.
The monk on the other hand has, +8/+8/+8/+3. Who is missing more now?
At lvl9 3/4BAB is +6/+1. For the rouge this means +4/-1 +4/-1. Monk +6/+6+/+1. While the monk has 1 attack less, he still has a higher change of hitting. So in the end, where is flurry not better than TWF (which was my original comprehension)? If 3/4 BAB TWF can hit reliably stuff, flurry can do it even better. So where is the flurry of misses now?
And the argument to stack Flurry and TWF is for the reason, that if your enemies shoudn't have a high AC for you, you can kill em even faster. It's not a must have, but for some builds it can be a nice option.
While flurry is a lvl1 ability, it starts weak and needs progress to become real good. But the weak start is no more worse than a TWF rogue at lvl1. Both will have a hard time to hit high AC stuff with their abilities in the first few lvls and should only use it carefully. But the same can be said about many things in the early game. An ubercharger won't have Shock Trooper at this moment yet and thus would also need to be careful with his PA penalty investments.
So all in all, beside that monk is a 3/4 BAB class (who still could get Greater Flurry and BAB 16+ into one build) I don't see valid points against flurry compared to TWF.

[Gnaeus]

The argument was under the assumption if you "push it to lvl11" and compared with TWF. And not every TWF build is a full BAB class, hello rogues. They also are a 3/4 BAB class which often take the TWF line. If rogues can still hit on a reliable base, so can monks. And nobody forces you to use it for every fight. If you should face a real high AC enemy from time to time, don't use it for that few fights until you have enough attack bonuses from other sources than BAB.
Most builds hit on a reliable base due to ability score modifier for the first few levels (incl. full BAB classes). So your argument is flawed to some degree here.
Since I only compared Flurry vs TWF and not 3/4 BAB against full BAB, lets look further into my example and lets compare it with a TWF rogue.
At lvl 11 the twf rogue has a +8/+3 BAB and thus would have +6/+1 +6/+1.
The monk on the other hand has, +8/+8/+8/+3. Who is missing more now?
At lvl9 3/4BAB is +6/+1. For the rouge this means +4/-1 +4/-1. Monk +6/+6+/+1. While the monk has 1 attack less, he still has a higher change of hitting. So in the end, where is flurry not better than TWF (which was my original comprehension)? If 3/4 BAB TWF can hit reliably stuff, flurry can do it even better. So where is the flurry of misses now?
And the argument to stack Flurry and TWF is for the reason, that if your enemies shoudn't have a high AC for you, you can kill em even faster. It's not a must have, but for some builds it can be a nice option.
While flurry is a lvl1 ability, it starts weak and needs progress to become real good. But the weak start is no more worse than a TWF rogue at lvl1. Both will have a hard time to hit high AC stuff with their abilities in the first few lvls and should only use it carefully. But the same can be said about many things in the early game. An ubercharger won't have Shock Trooper at this moment yet and thus would also need to be careful with his PA penalty investments.
So all in all, beside that monk is a 3/4 BAB class (who still could get Greater Flurry and BAB 16+ into one build) I don't see valid points against flurry compared to TWF.

Except for 4.5 things.
1. The monk is more MAD than the rogue, who will likely have a 16 or 18 dexterity, while the monk has to balance multiple stats. His dex will also likely go up faster for the same reason.

2. Even at 2 weapons, the rogue’s weapons are cheaper than enhancement bonuses for the monk. Starting with his masterwork ones long before an amulet +1.

3. The rogue isn’t a primary combatant. The monk is. The rogue takes TWF for the sole purpose of making multiple sneak attack attempts, meaning he’s only likely to be full attacking if he’s invisible or Target is flat footed or there is a flanker. No one expects the rogue to be primary melee. They expect him to be skill support that occasionally does good damage when his tricks work.

4. Did I mention skills? Because rogue is likely to have UMD at max ranks. That opens about a million doors.

4.5 At points when it matters, the rogue will likely be making touch attacks if at high op. Monks can’t solve their problems by buying acid and alchemist fire.

[Gruftzwerg]

Except for 4.5 things.
1. The monk is more MAD than the rogue, who will likely have a 16 or 18 dexterity, while the monk has to balance multiple stats. His dex will also likely go up faster for the same reason.

2. Even at 2 weapons, the rogue’s weapons are cheaper than enhancement bonuses for the monk. Starting with his masterwork ones long before an amulet +1.

3. The rogue isn’t a primary combatant. The monk is. The rogue takes TWF for the sole purpose of making multiple sneak attack attempts, meaning he’s only likely to be full attacking if he’s invisible or Target is flat footed or there is a flanker. No one expects the rogue to be primary melee. They expect him to be skill support that occasionally does good damage when his tricks work.

4. Did I mention skills? Because rogue is likely to have UMD at max ranks. That opens about a million doors.

4.5 At points when it matters, the rogue will likely be making touch attacks if at high op. Monks can’t solve their problems by buying acid and alchemist fire.

1: Eh and the rogue is not MAD? Don't make me laugh pls. Str, Dex, Con, Int & Cha are all stats for a rogue of interest. sure he don't need em all high but so it is for a monk with Str, Dex, Con, (Int), Wis. The monk has even less stats to care than a rogue, if he doesn't aim for more skillpoints.

2: What? A twf rogue has to buy 2 weapons and enchant em. The monk doesn't pay for his regular unarmed strike, but he has to skip the masterwork step, which ain't a big deal. I barely see people aiming for masterwork weapon besides. After that, the rogue has to pay for 2 weapons the enchantments, while the monk only needs to pay for 1 weapon with his necklace for unarmed attacks.

3. TWF rogues are often the combat rogue and to a lesser degree the skill rogue. The amount of feats TWF needs (3) is indication that the focus is on combat. But yeah, I admit a rogue is still more versatile than a monk. While not as good as the rogue, the monk still has a nice skill selection and is not as worse as fighter. Somewhere in between.

4. are we comparing flurry with TWF or monks with rogues here..?
4.5 see 4. And a monk build can also get UMD if we are talking about high optimization. So where is the point? Are we comparing monk20 to rogue20 or Flurry and TWF...

[JNAProductions]

1: Eh and the rogue is not MAD? Don't make me laugh pls. Str, Dex, Con, Int & Cha are all stats for a rogue of interest. sure he don't need em all high but so it is for a monk with Str, Dex, Con, (Int), Wis. The monk has even less stats to care than a rogue, if he doesn't aim for more skillpoints.

2: What? A twf rogue has to buy 2 weapons and enchant em. The monk doesn't pay for his regular unarmed strike, but he has to skip the masterwork step, which ain't a big deal. I barely see people aiming for masterwork weapon besides. After that, the rogue has to pay for 2 weapons the enchantments, while the monk only needs to pay for 1 weapon with his necklace for unarmed attacks.

3. TWF rogues are often the combat rogue and to a lesser degree the skill rogue. The amount of feats TWF needs (3) is indication that the focus is on combat. But yeah, I admit a rogue is still more versatile than a monk. While not as good as the rogue, the monk still has a nice skill selection and is not as worse as fighter. Somewhere in between.

4. are we comparing flurry with TWF or monks with rogues here..?
4.5 see 4. And a monk build can also get UMD if we are talking about high optimization. So where is the point? Are we comparing monk20 to rogue20 or Flurry and TWF...

1) Strength isn't really needed, since they add a lot of d6s to every strike.
Dex is needed.
Con is needed, though not as much as frontline fighter needs it.
Int isn't needed, since they get a buttload of skill points just for being a Rogue.
Cha might be needed, if you want to be a face, otherwise... No.

Whereas a Monk needs Strength (base damage isn't enough when you rely on weight on numbers), Dexterity (AC), Constitution (they're just as much a frontliner as a Rogue), Intelligence (they only get 4 SPs a level), Wisdom (AC again, and Monk abilities)... The only stat they can really do without is Charisma.

2) +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists: 6,000 GP
+3: 54,000 GP
+5: 150,000 GP

Two +1 Daggers: 4,604 GP
Two +3: 36,604 GP
Two +5: 100,604 GP

3) Okay.

4) Monks don't get UMD as a class skill. Rogues do.

[SirNibbles]

Why I should stop after killing a single enemy per turn? Where is the logic behind that? You try to charge into the mid of the enemies, where you can kill as many stuff as you can hit. Each hit is a one shot. We are talking about optimization here I thought. The ubergoal for optimizing in killing stuff is to kill everything in a single turn if possible.

No, the original poster of this thread was looking for a way to make monks more effective:


I like the idea of monks. I really do, but I have struggled with them being useful in a campaign, especially in 3.5.

The issues I have had with them are:


They are a point sink. To be an effective monk you really need high dex, high wis, and high strength and con are pretty useful too.
Even with all of that they struggle to get a good AC or damage output and the bonuses they get don't seem to scale well, especially at the lower levels.
I struggle to think what their role is. They don't scout as well as a thief. They don't hit as hard as a fighter nor can they take as much damage.
To get comparable they need magic items which are mostly very class specific.

If anyone out there has played a monk and enjoyed it then I would love to hear what role they had and how you made them effective.

You don't need to be one-shotting every encounter to be effective.

[Gruftzwerg]

1) Strength isn't really needed, since they add a lot of d6s to every strike.
Dex is needed.
Con is needed, though not as much as frontline fighter needs it.
Int isn't needed, since they get a buttload of skill points just for being a Rogue.
Cha might be needed, if you want to be a face, otherwise... No.

Whereas a Monk needs Strength (base damage isn't enough when you rely on weight on numbers), Dexterity (AC), Constitution (they're just as much a frontliner as a Rogue), Intelligence (they only get 4 SPs a level), Wisdom (AC again, and Monk abilities)... The only stat they can really do without is Charisma.

2) +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists: 6,000 GP
+3: 54,000 GP
+5: 150,000 GP

Two +1 Daggers: 4,604 GP
Two +3: 36,604 GP
Two +5: 100,604 GP

3) Okay.

4) Monks don't get UMD as a class skill. Rogues do.

1) I see more rogues builds with 10+ Int than monks. Cause monks are not the skillmonkey remember? You don't pick monk because of skills. Most monks make use of tumble, hide and maybe move silently on top. You barely see monks with more skills. But I often see rogues still struggling with their skillpoints due to so many skills that they want or other expect from him.

2) Lets take a Necklace of Natural Attack: 600g + price for weapon enchantments = cheaper at all stages

4) you was talking about optimized builds. You barely go monk20 nor rogue20 in optimized builds. There are options available to get umd, even for builds relying mostly on monk/-ish lvls.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Each method involves a price. Dips can also be difficult for some builds. You loose your regular progression, which can be crippling for some builds (caster, sneack attack, flurry...). Depending on what is more important, you can get pounce either via a barb dip or with feats. You have the option. As you do with Travel Devotion. get it via dip or feats.

Base class dips are -never- a higher cost than a feat. Prestige class dips might be since they often require feat taxes in addition to the lost level. If you can swing the 2 levels for stagger, you can -definitely- afford one more for a dip for pounce. The real problem is the alignment conflict between monk and barbarian. Dragon magazine's chaos monk handles that quite succinctly, even if its flurry is a bit more, well, chaotic.

If you're really that worried about costs, the pounce element of the claws of the leopard weapon (CAd) is worth about 20k. Put it on your necklace of natural attacks. A set of tiger claw bracers with pouncing charge is only 15k.



No need for Acrobatic Charge. "Stagger" also allows you to avoid all AoO from charging for a single DC15 tumble roll. Sure you have a feat tax. But think about any other ubercharger trying to emulate the same comfort to charge every turn. He would need several sources of swift teleports/jumps to be on par. It assures that you get the multipliers ever turn (up to x4 sandals, flying dive, valorous weapon). Imho it is worth the investment. Besides, DM also gives you the ability to win every drinking contest which is imho priceless^^

The straight-line isn't the only restriction on charging, just the one that come up most. Acrobatic charge removes most (all?) of the rest. Thief acrobat 3 is the easiest way to get it and it doesn't have any feat taxes. It's also got a thematic tie-in with the whole kung-fu fighting motif of the monk.





?Why I should stop after killing a single enemy per turn? Where is the logic behind that? You try to charge into the mid of the enemies, where you can kill as many stuff as you can hit. Each hit is a one shot. We are talking about optimization here I thought. The ubergoal for optimizing in killing stuff is to kill everything in a single turn if possible.

Because you're almost never going to have a choice in the matter. It will be -very- rare for your enemies to cluster together such that you can even get two of them, much less more. As for why not both; costs. Your suggestions have already got you 3 feats in and none of them are the standard charger stuff. Flaws aren't allowed at every table, ya know.


edit:
heck, I would even think about getting both, pounce and travel devotion, but not sole TD. Together you could move freely between your attacks to make full use of pounce despite the positioning of your enemies.

TD is just one of a host of options for movement off a swift action. If you want to put all your eggs in the charge basket, be my guest. I'd rather expand my options in other directions and let the fight take a little longer on average (although probably not, since good GMs usually try to balance to the party).


Nope

The way it is worded it is a hard rule. You still suffer -2 to hit due to "inappropriate size" per size category difference (-8 for colossal as medium character). But it will always remain a light weapon. And this mean, you can't get to use your unarmed attacks as 2h as you described.

I'm not gonna sidetrack into the nitty-gritty on this one but I'm still not convinced.



The argument was under the assumption if you "push it to lvl11" and compared with TWF. And not every TWF build is a full BAB class, hello rogues. They also are a 3/4 BAB class which often take the TWF line. If rogues can still hit on a reliable base, so can monks. And nobody forces you to use it for every fight. If you should face a real high AC enemy from time to time, don't use it for that few fights until you have enough attack bonuses from other sources than BAB.

Rogues -aren't- expected to stand and bang with their foes and hit reliably. It's expected that they'll be relying on stealth, a flanking buddy, or any of a number of ways of targetting touch or flat-footed AC. If you want to play a monk like it was a rogue, be my guest.

Even then, rogues are relying on their gobs of d6s of SA damage to make up for the fact most of their attacks are going to miss.


Most builds hit on a reliable base due to ability score modifier for the first few levels (incl. full BAB classes). So your argument is flawed to some degree here.

In the earliest levels, -nobody- hits reliably. Toward about level 7 or so the warriors have not just the advantage from BAB and generally being less MAD than a monk but also from class features that make them more likely to hit: rage, good favored enemy choices, smiting, etc and so on. A lot of those came online well before this point but they make the difference that much more palpable as levels progress.


Since I only compared Flurry vs TWF and not 3/4 BAB against full BAB, lets look further into my example and lets compare it with a TWF rogue.
At lvl 11 the twf rogue has a +8/+3 BAB and thus would have +6/+1 +6/+1.
The monk on the other hand has, +8/+8/+8/+3. Who is missing more now?

For the reasons mentioned above, probably still the monk. He's likely not aiming at touch or flat-footed AC (much less both), although he's no more or less likely to have a flanking buddy. He's almost certainly boosted his primary ability to a lesser degree as well.

If he -is- the party member filling the rogue position, then it's probably a lot closer to even.


At lvl9 3/4BAB is +6/+1. For the rouge this means +4/-1 +4/-1. Monk +6/+6+/+1. While the monk has 1 attack less, he still has a higher change of hitting. So in the end, where is flurry not better than TWF (which was my original comprehension)? If 3/4 BAB TWF can hit reliably stuff, flurry can do it even better. So where is the flurry of misses now?

Same place it always was; anywhere you don't have something to offset the penalties.

But since we're here. Let's look at the math a bit more in-depth.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that both have 20 in their primary attack ability (str, dex, whatever) and +2 on their attacks from weapon enhancement. This is probably -not- accurate to typical builds for either Rather it's somewhere in the middle.

So that's now up to +13 before TWF and flurry.

AC at CR 9 is about 22. Bruisers will have more, caster types will have less but not much in either direction.

_________

Monk's flurry is hitting on a 9 for the first 2 and a 14 for the last. That's 60% and 35%

That comes to 12.6% that you'll hit with all 3, 10.4% that you'll altogether miss, and 77% chance that you'll hit twice.

_________

The rogue's TWF hits on 11 for the first two and 16 for the other two. That's 50% and 25%

There's only a 1.56% chance you'll hit with all 4, a 14.06% chance you'll miss altogether, a 12.5% chance of hitting with 3 attacks and 71.88% that you'll hit with 2.


The monk will miss altogether -slightly- less often (<5%) if everything else is equal. Which it won't be since both classes have different stat and gear priorities. I don't think I really need to show the ranger's numbers to state that he'll hit more often than both without challenge.


As I said before, having to wait untill effective monk 11 for flurry to clearly pull ahead is a -long- wait; more than half the game by virtually any table's standards.


And the argument to stack Flurry and TWF is for the reason, that if your enemies shoudn't have a high AC for you, you can kill em even faster. It's not a must have, but for some builds it can be a nice option.

At level 9+ that actually might have some merit. Before then, the stacked penalties may shift the odds such that you hit -less- often overall.


While flurry is a lvl1 ability, it starts weak and needs progress to become real good. But the weak start is no more worse than a TWF rogue at lvl1. Both will have a hard time to hit high AC stuff with their abilities in the first few lvls and should only use it carefully. But the same can be said about many things in the early game. An ubercharger won't have Shock Trooper at this moment yet and thus would also need to be careful with his PA penalty investments.

Again, at level 1 and even a few levels past that even the full BAB classes have trouble hitting reliably. Taking any penalty at this level when fighting an enemy in a fair fight is just a bad idea. I generally won't even take such options unless they're flat given to me before level 6 or so on most builds, barring them being a requirement to something else that I don't want to put off.


So all in all, beside that monk is a 3/4 BAB class (who still could get Greater Flurry and BAB 16+ into one build) I don't see valid points against flurry compared to TWF.

It's not so much that flurry is that much worse than TWF in and of itself. It's that it's basically only ever seen on a monk; no bonus damage, no attack boosters, and average base attack. Any other character dedicated to the punches-in-bunches method of fighting is going to hit more often and harder or about as often and -much- harder.

[Gruftzwerg]

Base class dips are -never- a higher cost than a feat. Prestige class dips might be since they often require feat taxes in addition to the lost level. If you can swing the 2 levels for stagger, you can -definitely- afford one more for a dip for pounce. The real problem is the alignment conflict between monk and barbarian. Dragon magazine's chaos monk handles that quite succinctly, even if its flurry is a bit more, well, chaotic.

If you're really that worried about costs, the pounce element of the claws of the leopard weapon (CAd) is worth about 20k. Put it on your necklace of natural attacks. A set of tiger claw bracers with pouncing charge is only 15k.
That's not true about dips. Depending on build dips may be very restricted. E.g. full caster gishs or builds that are tight set together and doesn't leave room for other dips. Or alignment problems.
My original argument was, that there are several options to choose from as monk to get pounce and that investing in TD is not as profitable as that.


The straight-line isn't the only restriction on charging, just the one that come up most. Acrobatic charge removes most (all?) of the rest. Thief acrobat 3 is the easiest way to get it and it doesn't have any feat taxes. It's also got a thematic tie-in with the whole kung-fu fighting motif of the monk.
still not worth. Monk-ish builds tend to have enough movement speed to bypass most obstacles with Stagger. And later with access to flying (what almost everyone gets sooner or later for his build) it becomes wasted resources. If it would have been a monk ability progressing prc it could be fit into some builds, but given as it is, it is just a waste of 3 levels..


Because you're almost never going to have a choice in the matter. It will be -very- rare for your enemies to cluster together such that you can even get two of them, much less more. As for why not both; costs. Your suggestions have already got you 3 feats in and none of them are the standard charger stuff. Flaws aren't allowed at every table, ya know. Don't know if your DM is always scattering your enemies over the entire battlefield, but for the tables I played at this is only used for setup ambushes from multiple directions. Something not so common. What is much more common is narrow space, buildings, alleys, dungeons and the like. To a lesser degree on open fields too, but that is imho also a rare situation. Imho it is common to expect a melee camp in most fights sooner or later.



I'm not gonna sidetrack into the nitty-gritty on this one but I'm still not convinced.
But that is how the RAW are given. "Unarmed Strikes are always considered as light weapons" is specific and doesn't care for your weapon size. And light weapon determines that you can still use it as a one-handed weapon despite the size.


Rogues -aren't- expected to stand and bang with their foes and hit reliably. It's expected that they'll be relying on stealth, a flanking buddy, or any of a number of ways of targetting touch or flat-footed AC. If you want to play a monk like it was a rogue, be my guest.

Even then, rogues are relying on their gobs of d6s of SA damage to make up for the fact most of their attacks are going to miss.
have you ever see a good combat rogue? They hit optimize to hit on a regular base to make up for their 3/4 BAB. Why shouldn't a 3/4 BAB monk not go for the same or similar solutions to hit reliably?
I mean, just as an example, while full BAB melees tend to go for +1 weapons with as many special abilities as possible in the early game, 3/4BAB combat builds should consider to go for up to +5 first and maybe some mandatory ability squeezed in.
And why are you tailoring different teammate options for rogues? That's in favor for rogue for no reason other than let the monk look bad for something that is not in the decision territory of the monk nor the rogue. Either you assume helping teammates for both or not. Or is there a hidden rule that you only may play monk as sole melee in your party that I missed? Either both can communicate to other players before creation or not. Let us be equal here.




In the earliest levels, -nobody- hits reliably. Toward about level 7 or so the warriors have not just the advantage from BAB and generally being less MAD than a monk but also from class features that make them more likely to hit: rage, good favored enemy choices, smiting, etc and so on. A lot of those came online well before this point but they make the difference that much more palpable as levels progress.
The early level are ment as reliably as possible. And for those levels ability scores do matter more than BAB.
Nobody forces you to play a Jack of No Trades just because you picked a MAD class. You are free to specialize you know.




For the reasons mentioned above, probably still the monk. He's likely not aiming at touch or flat-footed AC (much less both), although he's no more or less likely to have a flanking buddy. He's almost certainly boosted his primary ability to a lesser degree as well.

If he -is- the party member filling the rogue position, then it's probably a lot closer to even.

Again, why do you assume that the rogue is optimizing to compensate for his weakness while the monk does nothing? Why shouldn't the monk aim for the same or similar or other solutions? why? "because monks are weak"?:smallbiggrin: (sorry don't take the last question to serious, no ill intention. just couldn't help and had to place that bad joke.^^)


Same place it always was; anywhere you don't have something to offset the penalties.
yeah the monk gets to compensate his flurry penalties where the TWF rogue is stuck forever unless he invest into Tempest or something similar (iircc Bloodclaw Master). And remember that I was arguing about Flurry not being as bad as people say. It's not flurry's fault, that monk is a 3/4 BAB class. That doesn't mean that Flurry itself is bad overall.
I'm arguing that Flurry is not always flurry of misses. Especially if you optimize for it, you can easily achieve BAB 16+ and still have greater flurry. Sure comes all late online, but that doesn't make flurry always bad/missing either.



The monk will miss altogether -slightly- less often (<5%) if everything else is equal. Which it won't be since both classes have different stat and gear priorities. I don't think I really need to show the ranger's numbers to state that he'll hit more often than both without challenge.
Lets make fair comprehensions pls, either both optimize (for one stat) or both go MAD and become jack of no trades (unless you have high stat characters due to DM fiat or use alternate ability score rules than 28 point buy in.


As I said before, having to wait untill effective monk 11 for flurry to clearly pull ahead is a -long- wait; more than half the game by virtually any table's standards.



At level 9+ that actually might have some merit. Before then, the stacked penalties may shift the odds such that you hit -less- often overall.
are you assuming gear and optimization for the monk too?



Again, at level 1 and even a few levels past that even the full BAB classes have trouble hitting reliably. Taking any penalty at this level when fighting an enemy in a fair fight is just a bad idea. I generally won't even take such options unless they're flat given to me before level 6 or so on most builds, barring them being a requirement to something else that I don't want to put off.
Only partially right. This would mean that you don't use Power Attack either in the first few lvls and that is not the chase imho. As soon as you have low AC enemies which are common on lower lvls, you can make use of Flurry/TWF/PA. When facing a high AC enemy you let it be. Same for all.



It's not so much that flurry is that much worse than TWF in and of itself. It's that it's basically only ever seen on a monk; no bonus damage, no attack boosters, and average base attack. Any other character dedicated to the punches-in-bunches method of fighting is going to hit more often and harder or about as often and -much- harder.
But that was my original argument. That flurry is not bad. Sure base monk sucks, but that is not flurries problem. You can still optimize for it and get decent results. It's just that you have to know how to optimize the damage of monk based builds (which is a discipline by itself... since you have to learn/know so many niche rules/items/abilities..). The problem is not flurry, the problem is base monk ;)

[Quertus]

(although probably not, since good GMs usually try to balance to the party).



Let's say, for the sake of argument, that both have 20 in their primary attack ability (str, dex, whatever) and +2 on their attacks from weapon enhancement. This is probably -not- accurate to typical builds for either Rather it's somewhere in the middle.

So that's now up to +13 before TWF and flurry.

AC at CR 9 is about 22. Bruisers will have more, caster types will have less but not much in either direction.

_________

Monk's flurry is hitting on a 9 for the first 2 and a 14 for the last. That's 60% and 35%

That comes to 12.6% that you'll hit with all 3, 10.4% that you'll altogether miss, and 77% chance that you'll hit twice.

_________

The rogue's TWF hits on 11 for the first two and 16 for the other two. That's 50% and 25%

There's only a 1.56% chance you'll hit with all 4, a 14.06% chance you'll miss altogether, a 12.5% chance of hitting with 3 attacks and 71.88% that you'll hit with 2.


The monk will miss altogether -slightly- less often (<5%) if everything else is equal. Which it won't be since both classes have different stat and gear priorities. I don't think I really need to show the ranger's numbers to state that he'll hit more often than both without challenge.

Your math seems a bit off here: in neither example do you ever have either build hitting with only 1 attack.

As you say, these are "in the middle", and don't fully account for feats or gear, or other contributing factors (like invisibility, going for touch AC, buffs etc). The reason I bring this up is the same reason I kept the first bit: I don't believe that the GM should balance to the party - I believe that good players will balance to the party, and to the module/GM. That is, if the party isn't balanced, there is but so much that the GM can do, and the GM doing so will often make the game feel quite contrived. Since Monk and Rogue can both be adjusted up or down from (seemingly) rather similar positions, it seems to me that the Monk/Rogue, not the GM, should be the ones to balance to the table. Point is, it sounds to me like you are saying, "either can be optimized or de-optimized as necessary to fit the party". Do you disagree?

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's not true about dips. Depending on build dips may be very restricted. E.g. full caster gishs or builds that are tight set together and doesn't leave room for other dips. Or alignment problems.
My original argument was, that there are several options to choose from as monk to get pounce and that investing in TD is not as profitable as that.

On builds that tight, there's no room for feat choices either. They all get eat up on prerequisites. A monk based character, unless its an enlightened or sacred fist, isn't going to fall into that group though.



still not worth. Monk-ish builds tend to have enough movement speed to bypass most obstacles with Stagger. And later with access to flying (what almost everyone gets sooner or later for his build) it becomes wasted resources. If it would have been a monk ability progressing prc it could be fit into some builds, but given as it is, it is just a waste of 3 levels..

Depends on what kind of build you're on. The speed bonus isn't the most commonly advanced monk feature. In a lot of cases it's -just- the unarmed strike and maybe the armor class bonus. The former has a million and one ways to make up for it and the latter's not a substantial loss, given how slowly it progresses anyway.

As for flight, unlimited flight is a mid-game ability. If you've picked it up before level 10ish then you've probably gone substantially out of the way for it. It's also usually -slower- than the monk's land speed if he's been keeping up with that feature. Before it's an always-on feature for the character, you're still gonna have to deal with difficult terrain and terrain features you can't simply go around. Even in later levels there will be circumstances where you can't or don't want to fly but still want to charge.

I'm not saying it's a must-have but it's a solid feature if you're building around charging and it's hardly the only feature the thief-acrobat gets either.



Don't know if your DM is always scattering your enemies over the entire battlefield, but for the tables I played at this is only used for setup ambushes from multiple directions. Something not so common. What is much more common is narrow space, buildings, alleys, dungeons and the like. To a lesser degree on open fields too, but that is imho also a rare situation. Imho it is common to expect a melee camp in most fights sooner or later.

They don't have to be scattered all over the map. Just more than 10 feet appart from one another unless you're getting a reach boost. There are ways to do that, of course, but that's still more resources.

That said, ambushes are pretty common where I'm from and anyone who's ever seen a sorcerer in a fight knows that clustering together is just wriing "fireball here" on your foreheads.




have you ever see a good combat rogue? They hit optimize to hit on a regular base to make up for their 3/4 BAB. Why shouldn't a 3/4 BAB monk not go for the same or similar solutions to hit reliably?

They try. And the monk -can't- use the same tricks for the most part.

Take chucking alchemist's fire/ frost/ shock as an example; it's not a flurry weapon, it gets no advantage from strength, and dex isn't -necessarily- the monk's primary stat. You'll hit plenty but you'll do jack for damage.

UMDing wands works just as well for either but the monk's gonna have to burn even more resources to do it since it's not a class skill.

Stealth and flanking: great as long as you're not supposed to be the party's front-liner. If you have squishy buddies and nobody else to help distract the foes, you're pretty much on your own. People don't see the monk as a skirmisher like they do the rogue, even if it is better suited to that role than it is to the warriors' role.


I mean, just as an example, while full BAB melees tend to go for +1 weapons with as many special abilities as possible in the early game, 3/4BAB combat builds should consider to go for up to +5 first and maybe some mandatory ability squeezed in.
And why are you tailoring different teammate options for rogues? That's in favor for rogue for no reason other than let the monk look bad for something that is not in the decision territory of the monk nor the rogue. Either you assume helping teammates for both or not. Or is there a hidden rule that you only may play monk as sole melee in your party that I missed? Either both can communicate to other players before creation or not. Let us be equal here.

It's not at all that you can't play a monk as the sole melee in your party. Quite the opposite, in fact; you're likely -expected- to fill that role. The rogue isn't. That's just not the perception.

If either of them is the sole melee in their party, it's a bad thing for them but the rogue has an easier time making up for it than the monk does. MAD rears its head again here. Neither class gives you any native way to improve to-hit, both have lower bonuses than full base attack classes of the same level, with certainty, but the rogue at least can lean hard on one stat and let his gear make up for bad rolls or a low point-buy.

A rogue can get away with dex and con and be okay. He doesn't need str for damage or int for skill points (8+), he already has a poor will save so wis isn't that big a deal. Cha? :smallamused:

The monk needs -at least- dex, con, and wisdom but really wants strength too if he can get it. He's not doing the skill thing without int but that's okay and cha is the universal dump stat still.

When you then figure in that the monk has to spend -way- more to get his AC up to the same level... there's just no getting around the fact that a monk and a rogue of equal level will -very likely- have the monk with the lower attack bonus, if only by a couple points.

Oh, and never get more than a +1 enhancement to your weapon if you have -any- reliable means of getting a level appropriate casting of greater magic weapon or metaphysical weapon. It's very inefficient.



The early level are ment as reliably as possible. And for those levels ability scores do matter more than BAB.
Nobody forces you to play a Jack of No Trades just because you picked a MAD class. You are free to specialize you know.

They don't matter -more- but they do make a larger portion of your overall attack bonus at the absolute lowest levels. By level 6 though, even the average BAB classes have a BAB that's as big or bigger than the ability score bonus, pretty well guaranteed.

Monk in particular -punishes- you for poor stat distribution. Poor dex or wis? You can't put on armor or you lose flurry, speed, and evasion so good luck avoiding a hit. Poor str? You better get finesse and don't expect you're doing a lot of damage. Poor con? You're gonna die because even with good dex and wis your AC is gonna be middling at best until at least mid level. Being down on int only smarts a little unless you're trying to be the skill guy and nobody cares about cha unless they shift to it deliberately.



Again, why do you assume that the rogue is optimizing to compensate for his weakness while the monk does nothing? Why shouldn't the monk aim for the same or similar or other solutions? why? "because monks are weak"?:smallbiggrin: (sorry don't take the last question to serious, no ill intention. just couldn't help and had to place that bad joke.^^)

It's not that they don't, it's that they -can't- compensate for their weaknesses to the same degree. Simple as that.

I -like- monks. I'd like it if these things weren't such a problem but they are. It does get blown out of proportion, certainly, but there's a kernel of truth under the hype. You can make a monk that will be able to keep up with system expectations to an adequate degree but there's no two ways about the fact it's a hard mode class.


yeah the monk gets to compensate his flurry penalties where the TWF rogue is stuck forever unless he invest into Tempest or something similar (iircc Bloodclaw Master). And remember that I was arguing about Flurry not being as bad as people say. It's not flurry's fault, that monk is a 3/4 BAB class. That doesn't mean that Flurry itself is bad overall.

As you point out, the TWF penalties -can- be eliminated. Bloodclaw Master is probably the best option for that but, honestly, just being on a full base attack class more than overcomes the difference and you can't get flurry on a full base attack class.


I'm arguing that Flurry is not always flurry of misses. Especially if you optimize for it, you can easily achieve BAB 16+ and still have greater flurry. Sure comes all late online, but that doesn't make flurry always bad/missing either.

You're recommending 11 levels of average BAB. That means that at -most- you will have BAB 17. The full BAB guy is at -least- 1 point higher on his attack bonus, all else being equal... which is an absurd presumption; all else will -not- be equal.


Lets make fair comprehensions pls, either both optimize (for one stat) or both go MAD and become jack of no trades (unless you have high stat characters due to DM fiat or use alternate ability score rules than 28 point buy in.

Dude. I -did- give them the same distribution on their primary attack modifying stat. I gave them the same degree of enhancement on their weapon too. If I didn't, if I instead distributed the abilities and equipment normally, then the rogue would -certainly- have a couple points over the monk on attack bonus because he can afford it.


are you assuming gear and optimization for the monk too?

For when they are still taking a penalty? Don't need exact figures. When you're on the margins, the loss of attack bonus can completely offset the expected gain in number of hits. The bigger the penalty, the wider that margin gets.




Only partially right. This would mean that you don't use Power Attack either in the first few lvls and that is not the chase imho. As soon as you have low AC enemies which are common on lower lvls, you can make use of Flurry/TWF/PA. When facing a high AC enemy you let it be. Same for all.

You use them so rarely at that level that you're better off taking something more immediately useful and picking them up later. The monk's flurry isn't an option so that's not a big deal, same for TWF on a ranger's combat style. PA, TWF as a fighter bonus feat, lighning fists, and the like can wait though.


But that was my original argument. That flurry is not bad. Sure base monk sucks, but that is not flurries problem. You can still optimize for it and get decent results. It's just that you have to know how to optimize the damage of monk based builds (which is a discipline by itself... since you have to learn/know so many niche rules/items/abilities..). The problem is not flurry, the problem is base monk ;)

Taken by itself, you'd be right. You can't take it by itself though. There's only -one- class that gets it as an always available feature and that class is not particularly well suited to actually hitting things compared to anything that's not a poor BAB class. You could look at the sohei's ability to flurry while in a ki frenzy but the frenzy is a per day ability and she can't flurry without it. The sohei's flurry is pretty solid since it gets weapon focus as a bonus feat and a number of spells that help as well, including GMW.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Your math seems a bit off here: in neither example do you ever have either build hitting with only 1 attack.

Bah. You're right. That's what I get for rushing the math. I'm certain about the chances of missing altogether in both cases though.

It's late but I'll redo that tomorrow to get the more accurate numbers. I doubt it'll make much difference.


As you say, these are "in the middle", and don't fully account for feats or gear, or other contributing factors (like invisibility, going for touch AC, buffs etc).

I was trying to keep it simple and as fair as possible so that it was a like to like comparison. Touch and flat-foot AC vary a lot more than overall does and you've got to start getting into particular builds at that point. If you do that, you'll be in schroedinger's class territory in no time at all.


The reason I bring this up is the same reason I kept the first bit: I don't believe that the GM should balance to the party - I believe that good players will balance to the party, and to the module/GM. That is, if the party isn't balanced, there is but so much that the GM can do, and the GM doing so will often make the game feel quite contrived. Since Monk and Rogue can both be adjusted up or down from (seemingly) rather similar positions, it seems to me that the Monk/Rogue, not the GM, should be the ones to balance to the table. Point is, it sounds to me like you are saying, "either can be optimized or de-optimized as necessary to fit the party". Do you disagree?

There's a give and take from both sides of the screen. Everybody knows what inevitably happens when an arms race starts between a GM and one of his players; nobody wins.

Intraparty balance wasn't something I was intending to bring up with the comment about the GM balancing to the party. Obviously, you should balance to the other PCs as best you can to make it easier for the GM to balance to the -whole- party. If the GM's not balancing to the party though, it's trivially easy to either overoptimize until everything's a curbstomp or underoptimize to the point a TPK is near certain. Neither is an good outcome.

Modules can have their encounters rewritten pretty easily without changing the overall module much at all. Virtually have to be with experienced optimizers at the table.

[Quertus]

There's a give and take from both sides of the screen. Everybody knows what inevitably happens when an arms race starts between a GM and one of his players; nobody wins.

Intraparty balance wasn't something I was intending to bring up with the comment about the GM balancing to the party. Obviously, you should balance to the other PCs as best you can to make it easier for the GM to balance to the -whole- party. If the GM's not balancing to the party though, it's trivially easy to either overoptimize until everything's a curbstomp or underoptimize to the point a TPK is near certain. Neither is an good outcome.

Modules can have their encounters rewritten pretty easily without changing the overall module much at all. Virtually have to be with experienced optimizers at the table.

IME, experienced optimizers who aren't idiots won't optimize away their fun. If the GM sets a static difficulty (say, a module as written), with sample characters showing the expected power level, a good optimizer / group will balance accordingly.

Totally agree that nobody wins an arms race; just disagree on best practices to prevent that scenario.

I think that best practices is for the GM to show sample characters that they used to defeat the module at "average" difficulty, and let the players decide from that what kind of party they want to bring - from "struggles with everything" to "gets to feel like BDHs".

IMO, it removes player agency for the GM to try to auto-adjust the difficulty - not to mention that such willingness on GM's part to change things tends to lend itself to that "arms race" condition that we both want to avoid. If the GM isn't moving the goalposts, you can't exactly have an arms race with the GM, now can you? This is why I feel that the GM should plant the goalposts firmly in stone, and let the players move around as they see fit.

And, sure, the group can wield a clue-by-four on overachieving optimizers until they either get the picture, or lose enough brain cells that their optimization falls in line with the group. :smallamused: I still have fond memories of being that clue-by-four. :smallcool:

-----

But, again, you feel that both classes are… "reasonably adjustable"?

[DMVerdandi]

Tashalatora

Monk 1/Ardent x is amazing and has a plethora of themes that it can fulfill.

Monk 1/ Psychic Warrior x Truly master their bodies and can be real powerhouses

Monk 1/ w Kung Fu Genius + CSTP Erudite = Negi Springfield. Best Class combo in the game. BEST.

Monk 1/ wKFG+ Lurk = A Ninja



Monks should have been Psionic from the jump. The class is parts to a greater whole.