Divine or Eldritch Smite: Which is better?

[Nagog]

As the title says, which is more effective; Divine Smite or Eldritch Smite?

Divine Smite has a cap, Eldritch does not. Paladins get more slots of varying level, Warlocks do not.
What do you think?

[ImproperJustice]

Six of one, half dozen of the other.

I think Eldritch Smite can be done at range, so there is that.

[Makorel]

Six of one, half dozen of the other.


What DM is giving you half a dozen spell slots as a Warlock and how can I play in their game?

[Nagog]

What DM is giving you half a dozen spell slots as a Warlock and how can I play in their game?

XD I think he means over the course of the standard adventuring day, implying short rests. Planes Above a Warlock with 6 spell slots would be wildly fun though, if somewhat gamebreaking.

[Sam113097]

Eldritch Smite seems a bit stronger on paper, especially because it can knock most enemies prone, which is an undervalued benefit in combat. However, Warlock slots are more limited than Paladin smites, so it’s a trade-off

[Daphne]

Divine Smite is better because the opportunity cost for Warlocks is higher imo.

[loki_ragnarock]

Divine Smite is better because it is open to multi-class shenanigans while Eldritch Smite is not.


If a Paladin wants a bunch more smites, he becomes a bard or a sorcerer or a cleric or a wizard or a druid.

If a Warlock wants a bunch more smites, he becomes an 11th and 17th level warlock.


For a character with polearm master, great weapon master, sentinel, multi-classed Berserker Barbarian, two weapon fighting, or other tricks to get an extra attack out in a round, the Warlock will need to hit warlock level 11 to pull out a full round of hits with smite. Your ability to nova is hard capped with Eldritch Smite. Not so with Divine Smite, where you can punctuate every hit in a round with extra damage.

Compared to a straight Paladin, Eldritch Smite is probably better; a faster smite damage progression makes up for having fewer smites available in a round. But with multi-classing Divine Smite smokes it.

[Misterwhisper]

The issue with eldritch smite is that you would probably still be better off just using eldritch blast.

It can be used with a ranged weapon if it matters.

I never saw the appeal of weapon based warlocks, you are investing a lot to just be average.

[JakOfAllTirades]

What DM is giving you half a dozen spell slots as a Warlock and how can I play in their game?

I'm currently playing an 18th level BladeLock with a Rod of the Pact Keeper and a Ring of Spell Storing, so it's almost like having six spell slots. Sadly, while the ring can store a 5th level warlock spell, it doesn't technically count as a warlock spell slot, so I can only use Eldritch Smite five times. And I have to spend an action to recover a spell slot for the 5th one using the rod.

I think I prefer Eldritch Smite to Divine Smite. It progresses faster; I had all my dice (6d8) at 9th level. I like having the option of smiting at range. (Up to 600 feet away with a longbow pact weapon.) My melee-oriented allies enjoy ganging up on the target after I knock them prone with no save. Also, in many cases force damage is preferable to radiant damage. (I have spells for radiant damage if I need it.)

[Man_Over_Game]

I never saw the appeal of weapon based warlocks, you are investing a lot to just be average.

It solves the problem that Paladins run into when wanting to cast a lot of spells.

A Hexblade is optimized to do both when a Paladin isn't. The problem is, players only see the Hexblade as a weapon attacker instead of a hybrid.

It'd be like looking at the Moon Druid and assuming it's only a melee combatant. You are still a fully competent magic caster.

Optimizing a Warlock for just spellcasting doesn't really have much of a difference than just doing something else. What else would you have spent your invocation or patron on that would have significantly added options for spending your spell slots?

[kazaryu]

XD I think he means over the course of the standard adventuring day, implying short rests. Planes Above a Warlock with 6 spell slots would be wildly fun though, if somewhat gamebreaking.

its...an expression that means 'they're the same thing'.

as in eldritch smite and divine smite, neither is better.


for the OP: its important to note, eldritch smite automatically knocks someone prone, so it has utility outside of damage. the trade off is that per spell slot, divine smite actually hurts more.

overall i agree with MoG, if there is a difference between them in terms of effectiveness its marginal at best.

edit: should clarify, divine smite may hurt more, but paladin levels scale slower. so its kind of a wash even there.

[ImproperJustice]

its...an expression that means 'they're the same thing'.

as in eldritch smite and divine smite, neither is better.


for the OP: its important to note, eldritch smite automatically knocks someone prone, so it has utility outside of damage. the trade off is that per spell slot, divine smite actually hurts more.

overall i agree with MoG, if there is a difference between them in terms of effectiveness its marginal at best.

edit: should clarify, divine smite may hurt more, but paladin levels scale slower. so its kind of a wash even there.

Thank you.
Sorry. Where I live: 6 of 1, half dozen of the other is a common expression for meaning the same thing or close to it.

They both achieve a similar result with some minor differences. So I think a PC can enjoy either.


On an unrelated note, anyone notice the Nameless King has returned? Maybe he is from the States and in quarantine with the rest of is and has more time on his hands.

[Misterwhisper]

Thank you.
Sorry. Where I live: 6 of 1, half dozen of the other is a common expression for meaning the same thing or close to it.

They both achieve a similar result with some minor differences. So I think a PC can enjoy either.


On an unrelated note, anyone notice the Nameless King has returned? Maybe he is from the States and in quarantine with the rest of is and has more time on his hands.

He is from Brazil.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

What DM is giving you half a dozen spell slots as a Warlock and how can I play in their game?

I've ran a couple games where everyone got to choose three spells (2nd, 1st, and 1st level) that was cast at-will.

We used... I think the rogue and sorcerer as the base classes. No Spellcasting feature allowed.

A lot of fun. Basically, it was like X-Men D&D.

[col_impact]

Makes hexblade or pact 5/wizard 15 look really awesome. You do lose access to 9th level spells though, which for really good players is a no go. 9th level spells are game breaking when they finally show up though. So this would be a DM friendly build.

[Galithar]

I just want to point out that Eldritch Smite isn't good for dumping a massive Nova. It explicitly limits you to one smite per turn, regardless of your number of attacks, so even if you wanted to dump all 2-4 spell slots in one turn you can't do it with Eldritch smites.

[col_impact]

Loading everything up on one guaranteed hit and guaranteed critical is something a wizard can do. But that is a good point, Galithar.

[Arkhios]

Skipping all other posts, because in my honest opinion, Divine Smite is a lot better, as it can be used with any spell slot, not just with paladin spell slots or, as in the case of Eldritch Smite, warlock spell slots only.

[Galithar]

Skipping all other posts, because in my honest opinion, Divine Smite is a lot better, as it can be used with any spell slot, not just with paladin spell slots or, as in the case of Eldritch Smite, warlock spell slots only.

If you ignore all the arguments that Eldritch Smite can be delivered at Range, does more damage (except against undead where it's equal), and knocks the target prone with no save. As well as dealing force damage which is situationally superior. More things resist radiant damage than force.

It's not better simply because it's spammable. It has it's own limitations and for the most part the abilities are pretty equal.

In a single class game your Warlock will be smiting a lot harder, but less often then a Paladin for the majority of the game (from 5th level to 13th level). In Multiclass the Paladin still hits slightly lower in the beginning, but catches up significantly faster.

[Arkhios]

If you ignore all the arguments that Eldritch Smite can be delivered at Range, does more damage (except against undead where it's equal), and knocks the target prone with no save. As well as dealing force damage which is situationally superior. More things resist radiant damage than force.

It's not better simply because it's spammable. It has it's own limitations and for the most part the abilities are pretty equal.

In a single class game your Warlock will be smiting a lot harder, but less often then a Paladin for the majority of the game (from 5th level to 13th level). In Multiclass the Paladin still hits slightly lower in the beginning, but catches up significantly faster.

Prone condition is a joke in 5th edition. Standing up from prone is not a big issue, as it doesn't even provoke opportunity attacks (as it used to in previous editions).
That you can make Eldritch Smite from range is certainly a boon over Divine Smite, but the limitation on how often you can do it compared to Divine Smite is still a huge drawback.

While true that very few things resist Force damage, the difference between Force and Radiant is very small. I can't remember the exact numbers, but it's not a huge gap.

FWIW, I already said it's just my opinion, and I don't have any obligation to change it just because someone else might disagree, now do I?

[RSP]

ES is better in terms of what it does as an individual Smite can apply to ranged attacks and applies the prone condition.

Whether it’s better to be a Paladin or a Warlock, in terms of their respective Smites, is going to be based on what your adventuring days are like, level you’ll be attaining, and whether Undead/Fiends are a common enemy in the campaign.

Personally, I’d say Paladins are the way to go if you want to Smite, in general. To use ES, you need to select PotB, and select both Thirsting Blade and ES as invocations, and it still costs you a spell slot. That build will be able to drop heavier Smites on enemies earlier than an equal level Paladin, however, the Paladin is still able to do everything else a Paladin can do, while the Warlock put all their character build options into Smiting.

As the characters gain levels, the Paladin wins out as they’ll have more slots to drop more Smites (and multiple Smites per turn), while the Warlock will start being suboptimal in terms of their attacks if going Weapon attacks over EB, at level 11, depending on gear.

The Warlock must choose to do weapon attacks over EB or casting a 5th level+ spell: Synaptic Static will be much more effective in any combat with multiple enemies.

The Warlock must choose to keep weapon attacking, foregoing better actions, while hoping for a crit, while the Paladin is mostly using the attack action every turn anyway, so can Smite and take advantage on any crit they roll.

The fact that ES can be used on ranged weapons is kind of moot, in my opinion as being a ranged weapon using Warlock is spitting in the eye of the best ranged class in 5e: EB with AB and Repelling Blast, Lance of Lethargy, Eldritch Spear, etc. is the best ranged build in the game, and still gets all its casting on top of at will control actions. Trading that for ultimately less attacks per round and using a slot to Smite, is a bad trade off.

[Chronos]

Sure, it's easy to recover from the Prone condition, but it still lasts at least until the target's next turn. And don't forget that it also knocks flyers to the ground, which can be a huge deal, especially when you can do it at range.

[Galithar]

Prone condition is a joke in 5th edition. Standing up from prone is not a big issue, as it doesn't even provoke opportunity attacks (as it used to in previous editions).
That you can make Eldritch Smite from range is certainly a boon over Divine Smite, but the limitation on how often you can do it compared to Divine Smite is still a huge drawback.

While true that very few things resist Force damage, the difference between Force and Radiant is very small. I can't remember the exact numbers, but it's not a huge gap.

You drastically underestimate the prone condition. Which is fine. Some people play in games where all encounters take place in a 30'*30' all indoor ceilings at 10' campaign. They think flying is overrated and useless.

Prone is not a condition to scoff at. Knock someone with a 30 foot movement speed prone and have your body drop spirit Guardians on them.
Their speed is halved by the spirit Guardians. They now have 15 feet. They stand up using half of that. They have 7.5 remaining. They can move a single square without using their Action to dash meaning they are stuck in the Spirit Guardians.

Knock someone prone, have your Paladin buddy walk up and roll 2 or 3 attacks at advantage. Who cares if he stands up next turn, he probably won't live that long

Knock someone prone to give your Monk advantage on landing his stunning strikes. Then once stunned and auto failing strength and Dex checks have your fighter grapple him with 0 fail chance to keep him there. (The Monk is not necessary. The knocking prone is really to save your fighter buddy using an attack to shove when you get to do it as part of the attack)

Smite that Adult dragon out of the sky for 20d6 falling damage.

It's got a LOT of uses if you just look for them.

I only use Eldritch Smite on criticals or when the prone condition is valuable. So each smite for me is worth 12d8 damage. Sure a Paladin can wait for crits too, but then they'll have a lot of left over smites (unless they are super lucky and/or have a super long adventuring day.)

[Man_Over_Game]

FWIW, I already said it's just my opinion, and I don't have any obligation to change it just because someone else might disagree, now do I?

I think it was intended to be a jab at the fact that you basically said "Nobody else's opinion matters, because here are the facts".

But when provided with a counterargument with other "facts", you say "Nah, not gonna listen to you". Was anything we said going to matter?

[Arkhios]

the fact that you basically said "Nobody else's opinion matters, because here are the facts".

But, the fact is, I didn't say that. Don't make assumptions of intent. I meant what I said, "in my honest opinion".

I skipped other posts, because this whole matter is solely about opinion. There's no right or wrong answer to this question.
I gave mine. That's all.

[MercCpt]

They are both limited in there own ways.

Divine Smite:
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target,
in addition to the weapon's damage. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8.
The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or a fiend, to a maximum of 6d8.

Eldritch Smite:
Prerequisites: 5th level, Pact of the Blade. Once per turn when you hit a creature with your pact weapon,
you can expend a warlock spell slot to deal an extra 1d8 force damage to the target, plus another 1d8 per level of the spell slot,
and you can knock the target prone if it is Huge or smaller.

For Divine Smite it is maxed out at 5th level spell on an undead or fiend which is 6D8 but a 6th level spell for others again 6D8 on crit dmg you're always going to do 12D8 at these levels, Also you can easily multiclass into sorc for those higher spell slots.

For Eldritch Smite it is maxed out at 5th level spell no matter what you do so max is 5D8 and crit of 10D8 and you can't use other spell slots because it specifies warlock spell slot must be used

If we're going off of pure dmg divine smite outputs way more it's that simple but for overcoming resistances eldritch smite is better because hardly anything is resistant or immune to force dmg

For me i'm going to choose divine smite because I can use it at 1st - 6th level which can effectively be used a maximum of 18 times at 20th level 2 pal / 18 sorc
for eldritch smite I can only use it 5 times and that's it

[Joe the Rat]

Divine Smite:
Pros:

Spell Slot Agnostic
Scaleable (Choose your slot level)
Can spam (2+ a turn)
Can Nova (All your dailies in a go)
Stops Undead Fortitude, Vampire Regeneration

Cons:

Melee Only
Lower damage cap (unless against unholy)
Radiant < Force {marginal}
You have to be a Paladin


Eldritch Smite:
Pros:

Fast Peak when single-classed
Can go ranged
No save prone
Force Damage
You get to be a Warlock

Cons:

Pact Slots Only - not multiclass friendly
No scaling (Always full power)
No Spam (1 / Turn)
Enforced Rationing (limit 2/3/4 per rest)


Overall, it's kind of a wash - it depends on what you want to do.
Overall, Eldritch is more teamwork focused: it provides direct improvements to other's efforts. The main differential - Eldritch being usable ranged - actually suffers from being successful due to proning. Divine is more champion focused - you are going to be the one to make the kill in a big fat (radiant) blaze of glory.

[RSP]

For Eldritch Smite it is maxed out at 5th level spell no matter what you do so max is 5D8 and crit of 10D8 and you can't use other spell slots because it specifies warlock spell slot must be used

Actually, it’s 6d8 max: 1d8+1d8 per spell level, so 2d8 for a 1st level slot, 3d8 for a 2nd, etc.

Edit: also, this statement is misleading:



If we're going off of pure dmg divine smite outputs way more it's that simple but for overcoming resistances eldritch smite is better because hardly anything is resistant or immune to force dmg

As you’re comparing spell slots, not when each class gets access to those spell slots.

A 5th level Paladin has 2nd level slots (3d8 Smites) max, compared to a 5th level Warlock having 3rd level slots (4d8 Smites). At 9th, the Pally has 3rd level (4d8) the Warlock 5th (6d8). So at comparable class levels, the Warlock Smites will out damage the Paladin Smites, until each are level 17.

[Trustypeaches]

It solves the problem that Paladins run into when wanting to cast a lot of spells.

A Hexblade is optimized to do both when a Paladin isn't. The problem is, players only see the Hexblade as a weapon attacker instead of a hybrid.

It'd be like looking at the Moon Druid and assuming it's only a melee combatant. You are still a fully competent magic caster.

Optimizing a Warlock for just spellcasting doesn't really have much of a difference than just doing something else. What else would you have spent your invocation or patron on that would have significantly added options for spending your spell slots?
Yeah, but you need to invest a lot of invocations to make melee warlock work, which are extremely competitive at low levels.

[Galithar]

Yeah, but you need to invest a lot of invocations to make melee warlock work, which are extremely competitive at low levels.

Not really. If you're smiting occasionally for effect, and not making a pure Bladelock you really only need one (two if ranged and you haven't nfound a magical ranged weapon). The others enhance, it make melee more appealing.

At level 5 I would tell a Warlock that wants to smite (but not a dedicated weapon attack bladelock) to continue E. blasting for their at-will damage. Attack in melee when you plan to smite only. Once you get a ranged magical weapon make it your pact weapon and use it for ranged smites when needed. A Paladin will use most of its spell slots on smites. A smite for a Warlock is just one more option they can use their extremely limited slots on.

Which I suppose doesn't actually counter you saying that it takes high investment to make a melee warlock work. Just that a Warlock can make use of Eldritch Smite with only the invocation required to do it and no further investment. Which personally is how I recommend doing it. A Blade lock GWM PAM at high levels dealing 2d10+1d4+60 is pretty nasty though. But not really more so then the Barbarian doing 2d10+1d4+54 for far less investment (just the feats, no additional class or character resources)

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah, but you need to invest a lot of invocations to make melee warlock work, which are extremely competitive at low levels.

Maybe if you want to deal more damage than a melee Rogue. Even if you wanted to spend all of your invocations on weapon damage, you still have a lot more tools than a Rogue does.

Does a Bladesinger have to be a melee combatant to be a worthwhile option? Simply just having the option not suck in melee combat is often enough to justify the entire subclass, even if you plan on being behind the front-line. Valor Bards aren't only tanks.

The point I was trying to make was that the Warlock doesn't make a great melee combatant...because it doesn't need to be. You're better than any Sorcerer in melee combat, better than most Bards or Rogues, while loaded with a bunch of other features that people don't get. Isn't that enough?
Eldritch Smite isn't worsened from the fact that Warlocks are overall worse melee combatants than Paladins.

Alternatively: Eldritch Knight is a worse caster than Bladesinger, so is it a bad pick for a subclass?

[MercCpt]

Actually, it’s 6d8 max: 1d8+1d8 per spell level, so 2d8 for a 1st level slot, 3d8 for a 2nd, etc.

I'm only going off what I read and it clearly states that it does an extra 1D8 dmg for a warlock spell slot presuming at 1st level and then 1D8 extra per level after that if the pact bldae does 1D8 dmg then fine but I also didn't take in the pals weapon dmg.

Edit: also, this statement is misleading:

As you’re comparing spell slots, not when each class gets access to those spell slots.

A 5th level Paladin has 2nd level slots max , compared to a 5th level Warlock having 3rd level slots. At 9th, the Pally has 3rd level the Warlock 5th. So at comparable class levels, the Warlock Smites will out damage the Paladin Smites, until each are level 17.

Just pointing out what I meant in brackets

A 5th level Paladin has (two) 2nd level slots (3d8 Smites) max (oh and 4 level 1 spell slots), compared to a 5th level Warlock having (only two) 3rd level slots (4d8 Smites). At 9th, the Pally has (two) 3rd level (4d8) (oh and 3 2nd level,and 4 1st) the Warlock (at level 9 has ONLY two) 5th (6d8). So at comparable class levels, the Warlock Smites might out damage the Paladin Smites, until each are level 17. However Dmg over time DPS Paladin wins because of the amount of spell slots they have.

Also reading carefully Eldritch Smite does do 1D8 then an addtional 1D8 per spell slot spent on it it's effectively a divine smite worded differently

[Pex]

The issue with eldritch smite is that you would probably still be better off just using eldritch blast.

It can be used with a ranged weapon if it matters.

I never saw the appeal of weapon based warlocks, you are investing a lot to just be average.

A player may like warlock but doesn't want to cast Eldritch Blast for the millionth time.

A player may like the idea of an arcane warrior, and warlock is simply another way to do it.

A player may like the investing and feels rewarded in the effort. If he's average he's average with everyone else. Being average implies he's not the strongest but also not the weakest, and he doesn't resent the one who is stronger. Another warrior may do more damage in a melee attack, but that warrior is not also doing other warlock things such as the various invocations.

Being a weapon warlock does not forbid a player from enjoying the benefits of Eldritch Blast. He can like the versatility of being effective in both melee and range. A weapon based warlock may have Agonizing Eldritch Blast as much as any other warlock. Naturally he'll have Thirsting Blade, but he likes that he has it not resenting he must have it.

[Amechra]

The issue with eldritch smite is that you would probably still be better off just using eldritch blast.

It can be used with a ranged weapon if it matters.

I never saw the appeal of weapon based warlocks, you are investing a lot to just be average.

I once played a Mountain Dwarf Celestial Bladelock as a fake "Paladin". It was suboptimal, sure, but it hit most of the notes I wanted out of a Paladin-style character, and I wanted the challenge.

[sambojin]

Divine smite is better for damage.

Eldritch smite is great for air-proning stuff out of the sky. It's essentially a slightly better (more damaging) tripping attack from the Battlemaster subclass. One that the subclass nearly always takes, because not only is it handy in a melee heavy party, it also gives them air-proning at range. Which is good.

Melee? Divine smite is better for damage done by that particular character. Especially if you've already got sources of advantage covered in your party.

Ranged? Well, proning stuff is a source of advantage for other melee'rs, and it can also take down flyers at range, for other melee'rs to hit. So it is handy.

Not exactly chalk and cheese, more of a "blow a short slot for utility and possible ranged anti-air" with Eldritch compared to a "blow a long slot for damage, but you might have a lot of long slots, but it's a melee-only thing" with Divine. Similar, but different enough that it's pointless to compare them apples to apples, without taking build and party compositions into account (which we can't in the white-room vacuum of the question)

[RSP]

Just pointing out what I meant in brackets

Please don’t “quote me” while changing what I wrote. The reason the quote is there is to show what you’re responding to. Put your words outside the quote.

[RSP]

A player may like warlock but doesn't want to cast Eldritch Blast for the millionth time...

Sure but the thread isn’t about why you’d want to play a Warlock, it’s about which Smite feature is better. Citing an opportunity cost as a knock against ES is a valid point for the thread.

[Karam Vyathaa]

So, how well do they combine for paladin/warlock? It's slot intensive, but I don't see anything in RAW to indicate they can't be used on the same attack, if making a melee attack with a pact weapon. The point might be moot if the answer is both!

[Galithar]

So, how well do they combine for paladin/warlock? It's slot intensive, but I don't see anything in RAW to indicate they can't be used on the same attack, if making a melee attack with a pact weapon. The point might be moot if the answer is both!

They can combine. You can also combine the Whispers Bard pseudo smite.

At 20th level you can with
Paladin 2/Whispers Bard 9/ Warlock 9
Cast Booming Blade with a two handed weapon for a total of 1d12 (two hander) + 6d8 (5th level Eldritch Smite) + 5d8 (4th Level Divine Smite) + 3d6 (Psychic Blades) + 3d8 (Booming Blade) + 5

Or 1d12+14d8+3d6+5

Add in a 5th level casting of Shadow Blade to turn the 1d12 into another 4d8 for 18d8+3d6+5 damage and 36d8+6d6+5 on a crit.
Average damage is 188 which is one of the highest damages you can get in a single attack roll. I am NOT saying this is a good idea or an optimized Damage build. Just that it has one of the strongest single roll damages in the game.

Palalock (Paladin Warlock) is a not super common, but viable multiclass.

[sithlordnergal]

My gut says that Divine Smite actually ends up being a bit better than Eldritch Smite, for a few reasons. But, in order to keep things fair, lets do a comparison of the two:

----Eldritch Smite----

--Pros--

It deals Force Damage, which is arguably a better damage type than Radiant
You reach the max damage of Eldritch Smite faster then you do with Divine Smite
It automatically causes creatures that are Huge or smaller to fall prone. As far as I know, ES is the only thing that can do that.
You can use it on Ranged attacks
It always does the max damage of your current level
Your spell slots come back on a Short Rest**


--Cons--

It requires you to have Pact of the Blade, which is still the weakest Pact Boon of the Warlock.*
You are very limited in how many Eldritch Smite's you can use per encounter, only twice from levels 5 to 10, and a max of 4 times at 20**
It requires you to use a Warlock spell slot, which means you can't use it as well with a Multiclassed build**
It competes with Warlock spells
You have to use one of your Eldritch Invocations to obtain it. If you want to be able to use Extra Attack, ES, and use it with Ranged weapons you need to spend all of the Invocations you get at levels 5 to 6 on them.
It is in a supplement book, meaning technically your DM can say no to it
You have to have at least 5 levels of Warlock to take this Invocation


So, I will readily admit that with Xanathar's supplements, Pact of the Blade has gotten better. Hexblade does a lot to shore up the weaknesses of Pact of the Blade, and helps to make it into an actual option instead of the trap it used to be. However, it is still weaker then Pact of the Chain or Tome. Pact of the Chain and Pact of the Tome work wonderfully with any of the other Patrons the Warlock can take, including Hexblade. On the other hand Pact of the Blade only works really well with Hexblade, and part of that is because Hexblade was clearly built to make Pact of the Blade better. I'm not saying you can't do an Archfey Pact of the Blade...but at the same time there's a reason it was considered the worst warlock boon before Hexblade came out.

Pact of the Blade is also requires a lot of Invocations to pull off. As mentioned above, if you want to use Eldritch Smite with a ranged weapon, you need to take Improved Pact Weapon, Eldritch Smite, and Thirsting Blade. Meanwhile Pact of the Tome and Chain only really need a single Invocation to do their big thing. And even then, their Invocations are more optional than Thirsting Blade and Improved Pact Weapon are.

So, this may ruffle a few feathers, but most Warlocks don't really have enough spell slots per encounter to use Eldritch Smite. Smites are usually saved for doing a ton of damage in a few rounds, but the Warlock isn't built to Nova things. They're built more like a Fighter or Monk, where they do a bunch of hits in a single round that add up to a lot of damage. Also, I say "Spell Slots per Encounter" instead of "Spell Slots per Adventuring Day" for a few reasons:

-"Adventuring days" are extremely varied from table to table. One group might get a balance of Short and Long rests, another might only get Long Rests, and another might get a Short Rest after every encounter. In theory, you should get enough short rests to gain an equivalent number of slots to a full caster, but that usually doesn't happen in practice.

-The limited number of spell slots per encounter still limits how much a Warlock can NOVA. At levels 5 through 10, they can only do it twice, at level 20 they can do it 4 times in an encounter. Sure, you might be able to Smite more over an entire adventuring day...but then again, most encounters don't need you to Smite the things you fight.

-Eldritch Smite competes with Warlock spells, which are far stronger then most Paladin spells, and, outside of Hex, most Warlock spells only last for an Hour at most. So you can't really cast them, Short Rest, and still have them affecting you. When you get into combat, you end up having to choose between the likes of Armor of Agathys, Darkness, Hold Person, Invisibility, ect. or an Eldritch Smite.

-Since you have to use Warlock spell slots, you are essentially capped at however many warlock slots you have on hand. You can't be a Warlock/Paladin/Bard and use those Paladin/Bard spells to use Eldritch Smite.

----Divine Smite----

--Pros--

You get Divine Smite very early*
The Paladin is an arguably stronger class in combat than the warlock*
Divine Smite deals Radiant damage, which is a really good damage type
Divine Smite comes with the base class, you don't need a special subclass for it
Paladins can do a better job at NOVA-ing a target due to more spell slots per encounter
You can use Divine Smite with multiclassed spell slots**


--Cons--

You can only use Divine Smite with a melee weapon attack
You have to use Spell Slots to fuel Divine Smite**
Your spell slots only come back on a Long Rest**


So, why do I say that the Paladin is, arguably, a better class then the warlock? Well, just take a look at it. The base class is amazing at all levels, but it is also perfect for dipping. Level 1 nets you Martial Weapon Proficiency, either Heavy or Medium Armor proficiency, depending on when you take the dip, Divine Sense, and Lay on Hands. Level 2 nets you spell casting, Divine Smite, and a Fighting Style. Level 3 gives you a Subclass, and Paladin is one of the few classes where even the weakest subclass can make for a strong support Paladin. You could drop Paladin at level 2 or 3, and come out with Divine Smite and tons of other useful stuff.

If you wanna go further in Paladin, 4 nets you an ASI, 5 nets you Extra Attack, 6 grants +Charisma Mod to all saves, technically including death saves, 7 grants you your subclass aura, and depending on the subclass this can be amazing or lackluster, 8 is your next ASI. Level 9 is the FIRST level where you don't gain any amazing class abilities...but even then you get 3rd level spells.

Spell slots are a problem for the Paladin, though I don't think it is as big of an issue as the Warlock. Paladins do need to ration their spells better during encounter then a warlock does over the course of an adventuring day since their slots only come back on a Long Rest, but this is made easier by the fact that Paladin spells typically aren't as good as Warlock spells. There are some helpful ones, like Divine Favor, Crusader's Mantle, and Shield of Faith, but outside of that they're mostly Cleric spells. Which is fine, but Bards and Clerics make better buff casters then Paladins do. As such, Paladins should generally save their spell slots to Smite things.

And to make the Paladin's life even easier, you can multiclass into a Bard, Sorcerer, or Warlock in order to gain more spell slots. A Soradin with Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 4 has a 4th level spell slot, meaning they can max out their Smite for a single hit. That's on top of three 3rd and 2nd level slots, and four 1st level slots. They can also use Sorcery Points to regain spell slots. Since Smite maxes out at 4th level slots, a Paladin 6/Sorcerer 12 has 8 spell slots that they can use to hit things with a Max Smite.

-----

Now, some of you may be wondering about why I didn't mention the damage of Divine Smite and Eldritch Smite. The reason is pretty simple, they're both the same when maxed out. Technically Divine Smite can do slightly more damage if you're facing a Fiend or Undead, but I feel this is balanced out by the fact that Eldritch Smite is always done with your highest spell slot.

All in all though, I feel Divine Smite is stronger. Eldritch Smite has a higher resource cost then Divine Smite, requiring an Invocation, for you to have the weakest Pact Boon of the bunch, and for you to have 5 levels of Warlock. And while you could gain just as many, if not more, Eldritch Smites in a day if you abuse Short Rests, you're still limited to a max of 4 Smites per encounter. This really does limit the effectiveness of Eldritch Smite since most NOVA builds are built around blowing your resources in a single encounter in order to end it quickly. You just can't do that with the Warlock, they're more like the Monk or Fighter, where you do a bunch of damaging blows over the course of a few rounds in order to kill your target. And finally, Divine Smite is baked directly into the core Paladin Class. You can have it, then either multiclass out of Paladin, or take one of many subclasses, all of which are pretty powerful. Even the weakest Paladin subclasses are amazing choices in their own right.

[Galithar]

I just want to point out again that they ARE NOT equal in damage unless they are used on a fiend or undead. A Paladin explicitly caps at 5d8 (6d8) against a fiend or undead. Eldritch Smite caps at 6d8 against everyone.

[LudicSavant]

Just pointing out what I meant in brackets

Really messed up to be changing what Rsp29a said in the quote box.

[Misterwhisper]

So, how well do they combine for paladin/warlock? It's slot intensive, but I don't see anything in RAW to indicate they can't be used on the same attack, if making a melee attack with a pact weapon. The point might be moot if the answer is both!

While in theory you can use both, there is not much of a reason to go that deep into warlock for it.

I have see. Quite a few: paladin 2/ hexblade 1/ sorcerer X where they just use cha to hit, damage, use PAM with a shield and be mostly a very defensive caster, using Booming Blade, quickened if they have to.

If they crit they blow a high spell level to make something explode.

[RSP]

Really messed up to be changing what Rsp29a said in the quote box.

I can feel all the people who read that post thinking they were my words...believing I’d be arguing for a 5d8 ES cap like it was somehow logical. That feeling doesn’t wash off (trust me I tried).

[sithlordnergal]

I just want to point out again that they ARE NOT equal in damage unless they are used on a fiend or undead. A Paladin explicitly caps at 5d8 (6d8) against a fiend or undead. Eldritch Smite caps at 6d8 against everyone.

Eh? No, Eldritch Smite caps at 5d8.

"...you can expend a warlock spell slot to deal an extra 1d8 force damage to the target, plus another 1d8 per level of the spell slot..."

Warlocks cap out at 5th level spell slots, and you can only use Warlock spell slots for Eldritch Smite. 1d8 for the first level plus 1d8 per spell level above 1st. At max you have 1d8+4d8 for a total of 5d8.

[JNAProductions]

Eh? No, Eldritch Smite caps at 5d8.

"...you can expend a warlock spell slot to deal an extra 1d8 force damage to the target, plus another 1d8 per level of the spell slot..."

Warlocks cap out at 5th level spell slots, and you can only use Warlock spell slots for Eldritch Smite. 1d8 for the first level plus 1d8 per spell level above 1st. At max you have 1d8+4d8 for a total of 5d8.

Read that again. 1d8+(1d8 per slot level), when your maximum slot is 5th is equal to 6d8.

[NaughtyTiger]

Skipping all other posts, because in my honest opinion,



hmm.
you can skip the other posts and give your opinion, or
you can brag about how you ignored everyone else's arguments.... and give your opinion.
one has the added bonus of showing everyone how little you respect them...

that said, i agree with you that eldritch blast is the stronger choice.

[Arkhios]

hmm.
you can skip the other posts and give your opinion, or
you can brag about how you ignored everyone else's arguments.... and give your opinion.
one has the added bonus of showing everyone how little you respect them...

that said, i agree with you that eldritch blast is the stronger choice.

Giving my opinion has nothing to do with respect for others or lack thereof. I have the same rights to have my own opinion as everyone else, don't I?

"My honest opinion" does NOT mean "My opinion is the only opinion there is". That would be a preposterous claim in a world with 7.8 Billion people.

In any case, hinting towards that was never my intent. I only gave my opinion. YMMV from mine, and that's fine.
Your mileage does not, however, mean that I should change my opinion. Neither do you have to change yours based on my opinions.
We can all make the choice to have or change opinions on our own, not under peer pressure.

If it helps to cope with this, I apologize for having been outspoken. That's just what I am. If that's a problem to you, feel free to ignore me, or do whatever it takes to feel better.

[NaughtyTiger]

Giving my opinion has nothing to do with respect for others or lack thereof. I have the same rights to have my own opinion as everyone else, don't I?


Thrice now you were called out for "skipping all other posts" as being disrespectful...
Thrice now you act like stating your opinion is the issue...

[Arkhios]

Thrice now you were called out for "skipping all other posts" as being disrespectful...
Thrice now you act like stating your opinion is the issue...

What does it matter if I didn't read other posts before I posted? Why does it matter, if I'm allowed to have my own opinions regardless? Is it mandatory that I change my opinions because someone said something different before I posted?

I don't recall reading about any rules that I have to read all posts before replying. If you can point me to one, I stand corrected.

It seems to me that some of you are just trying to incite conflict just because. I wash my hands off of it. I didn't start (or want) this ridiculous fighting over something I said. Apparently, I shouldn't have said anything about not having read previous posts. I thought it would be fair to point that out, but nooo... let's get all mad and complain about someone being open with their dealings.

Seriously, I'm certain there are a whole lot more than just me who sometimes skip to directly reply without having read all other posts. Just because they don't speak it out loud, it seems to be better somehow. I suppose I should do that myself in the future, since this approach generates so much hate, when my intent was good.

[NaughtyTiger]

What does it matter if I didn't read other posts before I posted? Why does it matter, if I'm allowed to have my own opinions regardless? Is it mandatory that I change my opinions because someone said something different before I posted?

I don't recall reading about any rules that I have to read all posts before replying. If you can point me to one, I stand corrected.

It seems to me that some of you are just trying to incite conflict just because. I wash my hands off of it. I didn't start (or want) this ridiculous fighting over something I said. Apparently, I shouldn't have said anything about not having read previous posts. I thought it would be fair to point that out, but nooo... let's get all mad and complain about someone being open with their dealings.

Seriously, I'm certain there are a whole lot more than just me who sometimes skip to directly reply without having read all other posts. Just because they don't speak it out loud, it seems to be better somehow. I suppose I should do that myself in the future, since this approach generates so much hate, when my intent was good.

again, you are ranting about not being allowed to have an opinion... deflection. no one has said boo about your opinion. no one has said your opinion is wrong, no one has said your opinion must be changed.

you are correct there aren't rules about reading all the posts ahead.
but there are social norms that dictate in a discussion, you will consider other folks contributions. "forum" means a place ideas will be exchanged; you have chosen not to receive.

you posted your comments because you expect that they will be read and considered...
but you took extra time to point out that you will not do the same for us.

yes, many people think think that dress makes their wife's butt look big, but it is rude to say out loud, "you is fat in that"...
intentions don't matter, actions do...
as an adult in the world, you know this.

[sithlordnergal]

Read that again. 1d8+(1d8 per slot level), when your maximum slot is 5th is equal to 6d8.

Hmmm, reading it that way would make it better. I was running/using it as 1d8+1d8 per spell slot above first. It doesn't change the fact that Warlocks don't have the spell slots to use it effectively, but that is a pro to Eldritch Smite.

[RSP]

Hmmm, reading it that way would make it better. I was running/using it as 1d8+1d8 per spell slot above first. It doesn't change the fact that Warlocks don't have the spell slots to use it effectively, but that is a pro to Eldritch Smite.

Just to be clear, it’s not a “reading”, it’s what it says. There’s no valid way to “read” it as 1d8+(1d8 per spell level over 1st). I’m not trying to link this only to you, SithLord, as others are making the same error; I’m just trying to make sure people realize this isn’t an interpretation thing.

[MaxWilson]

Just to be clear, it’s not a “reading”, it’s what it says. There’s no valid way to “read” it as 1d8+(1d8 per spell level over 1st). I’m not trying to link this only to you, SithLord, as others are making the same error; I’m just trying to make sure people realize this isn’t an interpretation thing.

Just wanted to note that there is such an thing as an incorrect reading, too. Saying "hmmm, that reading does improve it" does not mean "the way I was reading it before is equally correct." It just means "now I get what you're talking about."

[Nagog]

Palalock (Paladin Warlock) is a not super common, but viable multiclass.

I'd argue that Paladin/Hexblade is the most common of all Warlock multiclasses, and second of all Paladin multiclasses to Sorcadin.

That being said, having access to both can be a nifty tool in your toolkit as a Paladin.

[Misterwhisper]

I'd argue that Paladin/Hexblade is the most common of all Warlock multiclasses, and second of all Paladin multiclasses to Sorcadin.

That being said, having access to both can be a nifty tool in your toolkit as a Paladin.

Yeah, since it came out I have yet to see a paladin without 1 level of hexblade.

5e evolution scheme: don’t bother fixing what was wrong with the core classes just make broken subclasses.

Hexblade, gloomstalker, I am just wondering where the one is for rogue because if astral whatever for monk sees print it will definitely be the one for them.