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MariettaGecko
2007-10-23, 07:58 AM
So I have a party of players I am running through a campaign right now. I was looking at having 7, but it has recently dropped to 5 players. In the process, the player who was going to be playing a favored soul (and thus, the main party healer), had to drop out for the time being.

Basically, my party looks like this:

L1 Human Barbarian - Unexperienced player
L2 Elven Duskblade - Very experienced player
L2 Elven Druid - New player
L2 Human Rogue - lightly experienced player
L2 Psionicist, unknown race or specific class detail - very experienced player.

The party has three Healing Belts spread out through it.

The Duskblade player has suggested that, in the interest of having a healer in the party, he trade in his duskblade for a Clr1/Warlock1. My initial response is that the cleric is already too likely to go CoDzilla, but I'm concerned that this may be a rather unbalancing force for the game. So here's the question... If you were DMing this group, would you allow this character? I can potentially provide character stats if needed.

StickMan
2007-10-23, 08:00 AM
You would have to give more info on his build cause Warlock Cleric is not all that strong as far as I know. Right now I see no issue with it.

Falrin
2007-10-23, 08:03 AM
Druids are thé most complicated class.

Large Spell-list
Lots of summons (with buffs)
Animal Companion
Wildshape

Depending on what he wants I'd suggest something with less Mechanic Difficulties. (PHB II shapechange Variant would be a good start, maybe ranger)

Clr1/Warlock1 seems rather weak to me to be honest, what's the catch?

Citizen Joe
2007-10-23, 08:29 AM
Clr1/Warlock1 seems rather weak to me to be honest, what's the catch?
You don't see the philosophical conumdrum?

MariettaGecko
2007-10-23, 08:41 AM
You don't see the philosophical conumdrum?

That right there is my biggest issue with this character. That said, I was concerned primarily about the class combination as it comes to brokenness for ubergaming or whatever.

At the very least, I am thinking of requiring that he put together a darned good backstory to explain how a warlock (as I understand that is something you are born with) came to be a cleric.

Fishy
2007-10-23, 08:45 AM
I'd, um, talk to him.

Maybe he wants that one level of Warlock to throw a d6 at enemies when no one needs healing, maybe he's planning some sort of Beguiling Influence/Charm Domain uber Diplomancer. There's no way to know just from the classes.

Green Bean
2007-10-23, 08:53 AM
That right there is my biggest issue with this character. That said, I was concerned primarily about the class combination as it comes to brokenness for ubergaming or whatever.

At the very least, I am thinking of requiring that he put together a darned good backstory to explain how a warlock (as I understand that is something you are born with) came to be a cleric.

I don't see how it would be that big of a stretch. Warlocks are just like ordinary people, except that they're distant cousins to an evil outsider. The only big difference between a Warlock and an ordinary guy is that the Warlock is going to be Chaotic. There isn't much stopping him from becoming a cleric; heck, with the effects of a Warlock's invocations, any god of trickery would love this guy.

PnP Fan
2007-10-23, 08:59 AM
I don't think life would be terrible if your player swapped out characters. If he CoDs out, then all you have to do is increase the difficulty of the encounters a bit. Better yet, talk to him before hand. But if he's Cleric/Warlock ing, then I really don't think it's a serious problem.

You might also consider giving the Druid some kind of wand or something (I believe healing spells are on the druid list, they just can't cast them spontanieously (sp?)) for healing, and encourage your duskblade to keep his character. A party without a cleric can work, it just works differently.

Solo
2007-10-23, 09:01 AM
Cleric/warlocks can prestige into Eldritch Disciple, which is a fun PrC, but not overpowering, at least not compared to some of the other stuff that's out there.

Douglas
2007-10-23, 09:01 AM
I wouldn't worry about it. Warlock is underpowered and doesn't synergize well with cleric. Even if he goes for the Eldritch Theurge Disciple (I think that's the one) PrC from Complete Mage it's still not that great.

Edit: Thank you Solo, I couldn't quite remember the class's name.

Eldmor
2007-10-23, 09:02 AM
Or, since I think the Warlock fluff is a load of Bullete dung, he could make a pact with heavenly/celestial/seelie powers. That would be perfectly reasonable. Him then worshiping the power would grant him divine spells. It's like signing up for a club and paying the premium; you get extra benefits.

Solo
2007-10-23, 09:06 AM
I wouldn't worry about it. Warlock is underpowered and doesn't synergize well with cleric. Even if he goes for the Eldritch Theurge Disciple (I think that's the one) PrC from Complete Mage it's still not that great.

Edit: Thank you Solo, I couldn't quite remember the class's name.

Free healing on your EB, and only for the sacrifice of one cleric level, isn't a bad deal.

Douglas
2007-10-23, 09:17 AM
I don't have my books with me right now, but I'm pretty sure the Healing Blast ability has limited uses per day.

Dausuul
2007-10-23, 09:20 AM
That right there is my biggest issue with this character. That said, I was concerned primarily about the class combination as it comes to brokenness for ubergaming or whatever.

I see no potential for brokenness, at least no more than you'd normally get with a cleric. Warlock and cleric have very little synergy. The warlock level actually weakens the cleric build.


At the very least, I am thinking of requiring that he put together a darned good backstory to explain how a warlock (as I understand that is something you are born with) came to be a cleric.

Eh, I don't see the problem, really. Guy with fiendish heritage turns to the divine in order to help him control his darker nature (if a good cleric) or strengthen it (if an evil cleric).

Solo
2007-10-23, 09:24 AM
I don't have my books with me right now, but I'm pretty sure the Healing Blast ability has limited uses per day.

Perhaps you can clerify the issue later?

InkEyes
2007-10-23, 09:25 AM
You don't see the philosophical conumdrum?

Warlocks can derive their power from fey (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070328) too. I could see that working fluff-wise if the cleric in question worshiped a nature deity. It's just a conspiracy by The Man that tells us every Warlock in the Multiverse is associated with fiends.

Warlocks and Clerics don't seems like they'd be very overpowered without some insane feats or PrCs. I think that's a perfectly reasonable combo.

Swooper
2007-10-23, 09:49 AM
I fail to see why the druid can't just do the healing? Then there's no need for Mr. Duskblade to switch characters. If he does, as the others have said, warlock/cleric isn't really overpowered, so either way you should be fine.

Techonce
2007-10-23, 09:49 AM
Depends on the god he picked. Could be interesting.

To me the fact that the party has 3 healing belts, seems a bit much.

Yuki Akuma
2007-10-23, 09:50 AM
Clerics are strong because they're full casters, who can buff themselves up to becoming better fighters than, uh, Fighters.

But this relies on their full caster progression. Which, by multiclassing, he's throwing out the window. I wouldn't worry.

Shatenjager
2007-10-23, 10:06 AM
I wouldn't worry about it. First off he's coming out of duskblade, which is already a really really good class. Second he's switching to 2 a non full BAB classes, with non-obvious ability dependency synergies (he'll want WIS, CHA, and DEX). CODzilla really isn't a problem in most campaigns. Clerics either end up working as the healer (and taking a level of warlock to throw around d6s when not healing is no problem), or they spend a few rounds buffing while the rest of the party gets thrashed.

For me I see this as a no-brainer. Duskblade is a solid damage dealing class, where as multiclass between Cleric (good class), and Warlock (mediocre class), just seems less powerful frankly.

Maryring
2007-10-23, 10:33 AM
Perhaps you can clerify the issue later?

That pun wins you an chocolate chip internet cookie.

In addition, no, this is not an overpowered combination. In case the evidence laid forth above is not a clear indicator.

Starbuck_II
2007-10-23, 10:42 AM
Depends on the god he picked. Could be interesting.

To me the fact that the party has 3 healing belts, seems a bit much.

Well, if the party pooled their money together: they could afford a healing belt. Or 3 players used most of wealth gained to buy one (750 is alot of 900 limit, but eh).

But a Warlock/Cleric makes too much sense. Paladin/Warlock would need justification. But not the former.

Techonce
2007-10-23, 10:45 AM
Well, if the party pooled their money together: they could afford a healing belt. Or 3 players used most of wealth gained to buy one (750 is alot of 900 limit, but eh).

But a Warlock/Cleric makes too much sense. Paladin/Warlock would need justification. But not the former.

It's possible, but then no one has decent weapons and armor. Actually it owuld be kind of interesting. If we survive this we are okay, so everyone grab your buckler and dagger and lets attack!

Quietus
2007-10-23, 11:36 AM
Well, if the party pooled their money together: they could afford a healing belt. Or 3 players used most of wealth gained to buy one (750 is alot of 900 limit, but eh).

But a Warlock/Cleric makes too much sense. Paladin/Warlock would need justification. But not the former.

Paladin/Warlock only works if you're using variant paladins anyway. Or if you go through a radical alignment shift.

Kaelik
2007-10-23, 01:08 PM
You guys who think it doesn't synergize and/or Eldritch Disciple isn't very bad need to rethink that.

Yes he won't have full casting progression, but he wouldn't with Duskblade anyway. An Eldritch Disciple Galive Lock is a better melee fighter then a straight Cleric. With full BAB (Divine Power) he can get the Maximum number of iterative attacks with his Glaive, Power Attack for Full, and still hit because it's a touch attack based on his ridiculous Str score. Plus he can get the larger size that he needs from his own casting, making him completely self-sufficient in combat. And if he chooses to, he can be casting as a level 19 Cleric/lvl 10 Warlock at level 20. I don't see how that's "weaker" then a Cleric 20.

MariettaGecko
2007-10-23, 01:18 PM
The healing belt thing would be my fault. I was trying to rebalance things slightly given that I was going to be sending them, at first level, into a dungeon intended for 4-6 characters of level 3-5. I suppose I may have overdone it. Oh, well. What's done is done.

How would the Eldritch Disciple complicate things?

Tor the Fallen
2007-10-23, 01:29 PM
I'm not sure you're worrying about the right things. I think I'd fret over the fact that you overloaded the party with magic items, and plan to send them into a dungeon that's meant for characters 3 to 5 times their level.

If you're worried about healing (which is way over rated, btw), just give the druid a wand of CLW. Boom, done.

I'd be more worried about the psion or druid overpowering everything (in about 7 levels, though), not a relatively poor cleric/warlock multiclass.

Anything that makes your cleric player give up cleric caster levels, you should welcome.

Kaelik
2007-10-23, 01:37 PM
How would the Eldritch Disciple complicate things?

Eldritch Disciple complicates things because using Eldritch Glaive/Divine Power/Righteous Might/Power Attack he can do better damage then most Clericzillas and he can still get to be a lvl 19 Cleric/lvl 10 Warlock at level 20. Which means he's just like a Cleric except with fly and invisibility and a summonable weapon of super kickassity.

Zincorium
2007-10-23, 02:34 PM
Eldritch Disciple complicates things because using Eldritch Glaive/Divine Power/Righteous Might/Power Attack he can do better damage then most Clericzillas and he can still get to be a lvl 19 Cleric/lvl 10 Warlock at level 20. Which means he's just like a Cleric except with fly and invisibility and a summonable weapon of super kickassity.

18 cleric/11 warlock. Eldritch disciple loses an additional cleric level in addition to the level of warlock you have to take.[/nitpick]

It's not bad, but it's going to hurt a little getting in.

kamikasei
2007-10-23, 02:39 PM
I don't see how it would be that big of a stretch. Warlocks are just like ordinary people, except that they're distant cousins to an evil outsider.

Or a fey... or has made a pact with an evil outsider or a fey... or is descended from someone who did so. A Chaotic Good Warlock who's never even seen a fey or heard of a devil or demon is still a viable character.

Machete
2007-10-23, 02:40 PM
A wand of lesser vigor will replace those healing belts fine, if you are still worried, throw in a wand of cure moderate wounds with only 15 charges left on it.

Healing Belts are too powerful, it is almost universally agreed.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-23, 02:59 PM
L1 Human Barbarian - Unexperienced player
L2 Elven Duskblade - Very experienced player
L2 Elven Druid - New player
L2 Human Rogue - lightly experienced player
L2 Psionicist, unknown race or specific class detail - very experienced player.

As said before, druids are tough to play for novices. That is not to say he shouldn't, but he could use a little help. I suggest that the DM picks his familiar, and keeps track of the details of his summons.

With those healing belts, you don't need a cleric per se. Note how the druid can heal, and how the rogue and use a curing wand.

Cleric/warlock isn't overpowered per se (it does have a nice combo prestige class for it) and can be feasible depending on the deity involved. If the power bothers you, suggest that he plays a straight warlock - they even get UMD for healing.

Note that with the present combination, the duskblade is likely going to upstage the barbarian. Duskblades, especially when going nova, do a LOT of damage. And that's basically all the class does - nova striking in combat. So, again, a warlock may be nicer. Eldritch blasting is a useful ability but far from overpowered.

Why is the barb level 1 if the rest is level 2, by the way?

MariettaGecko
2007-10-23, 03:10 PM
Why is the barb level 1 if the rest is level 2, by the way?

Because of the fact that the barb wasn't present at the first game, and we have, as a group, decided that if you're not there, neither is your character. While it does hurt the realism somewhat, it does make the bookkeeping somewhat easier, and avoids ruffled feathers when a player dislikes how another player or the DM (me) played their character.

MariettaGecko
2007-10-23, 03:14 PM
Why is the barb level 1 if the rest is level 2, by the way?

Because of the fact that the barb wasn't present at the first game, and we have, as a group, decided that if you're not there, neither is your character. While it does hurt the realism somewhat, it does make the bookkeeping somewhat easier, and avoids ruffled feathers when a player dislikes how another player or the DM (me) played their character.

As it is, I may also require that he choose either the Cleric or the Warlock to start out (probably warlock) and add the cleric level later on, if that's what he decides to do, as he would need to bring in the new character at first level (since that's the lowest level in the party).

Kaelik
2007-10-23, 04:42 PM
18 cleric/11 warlock. Eldritch disciple loses an additional cleric level in addition to the level of warlock you have to take.[/nitpick]

It's not bad, but it's going to hurt a little getting in.

As you can see I took that missed level into account, but without my books I thought it was a missed level of invocations instead of spells.

greenknight
2007-10-23, 06:00 PM
Free healing on your EB, and only for the sacrifice of one cleric level, isn't a bad deal.

Not entirely free. You need to spend one Turn/Tebuke Undead attempt as a swift action to activate it each time (it's explained in the Gift of the Divine Patron blurb). Assuming the 18 Cleric / 11 Warlock build mentioned earlier, that's 6d6 healing per turn/rebuke attempt. Which is useful, but an 18th level Cleric generally has much better ways of healing someone.

icefractal
2007-10-24, 02:32 AM
I wouldn't worry about it, Cleric/Warlock is by no means an overpowered combination in general, and the fact that the Glaive/Divine Power combo exists doesn't mean you need to worry about it this early.

I mean, it's theoretically possible to gain nigh-infinite power at 1st level with a DC 25 Knowledge(religion) check, but you don't see Knowledge(religion) or Skill Focus being called overpowered.

And Healing Belts aren't necessarily too powerful - it just depends how much you want the party to be capable of before resting. Extra healing, short of full healing each round, seldom causes problems.

Leon
2007-10-24, 08:29 AM
Or, since I think the Warlock fluff is a load of Bullete dung, he could make a pact with heavenly/celestial/seelie powers. That would be perfectly reasonable. Him then worshiping the power would grant him divine spells. It's like signing up for a club and paying the premium; you get extra benefits.

They did a brief note on how any supernatural source could be a way for a "lock" to gain the powers and then forgot it all and went holus bolus into its Evil and all warlocks draw from fiendish sources etc

Creative imagination and invocation renameing can fix up most of it but still you have to deal with the generally accepted image that everyone else has of the class

Quietus
2007-10-24, 08:27 PM
They did a brief note on how any supernatural source could be a way for a "lock" to gain the powers and then forgot it all and went holus bolus into its Evil and all warlocks draw from fiendish sources etc

Creative imagination and invocation renameing can fix up most of it but still you have to deal with the generally accepted image that everyone else has of the class

Be careful of generalizations like "everyone else". Not everyone sees Warlocks as immediately evil. I've seen many different non-demon/devil uses for them.