Flying Death: Optimizing Thorn Whip

[Citadel97501]

Hello all, I got interested in looking for ways to optimize Thorn Whip, and I thought I would share. Please, note anything I missed or any problems that would prevent something from working.

Character Build:
Race: Variant Human
Alignment: NG or NE
Class 1: Sorcerer 4 - Sea Sorcery
-Meta Magic: Twinned Spell
Class 2: Cleric 6, Twilight Domain from the UA
Attributes: 20 Wisdom, 14 Charisma, 14 Constitution, 10 Dexterity, 10 Intelligence, 10 Strength,
Feats: Spell Sniper: Thorn Whip, +4 Wisdom from ASI.
Relevant Spells: Thorn Whip, Spirit Guardians

Basically with this build you can have a persistant flight speed at the cost of your bonus action, and fly above people at an altitude of 35', and anytime you hit them with Thorn Whip they will immediately be yanked 25' into the air, where they are injured by Spirit Guardians, and then fall back down taking another damage roll.

Damage per hit: 2 targets hit for 2d6 magical piercing damage, 5d8 radiant/necrotic with a save for half, 2d6 falling damage.
Resources: Twilight Sanctuary, Action, Bonus Action. 5th level spell slot, 1 sorcery point.

Basic Ideas
How can I make Thorn Whip a primary tactic...
-Lets make them take falling damage...this might need flight to make it work?
-Lets pull them into Spirit Guardians...
-Lets make the pull range farther...
-Lets make Spell Sniper awesome...

[Fable Wright]

Problem 1: Thorn Whip has a range of 30ft, not 35ft.
Problem 2: Twin spell cannot let the same spell target the same creature twice.
Problem 3: If one of the Thorn Whips miss, no Spirit Guardian Damage.
Problem 4: Using Quicken Spell at 25ft instead is viable, and gets the same net effect, except you still get SG damage even on one miss.

Instead of a level 10 multiclass thing using UA, have you considered instead having an Aaracokra Divine Soul Sorcerer who can pull this combo off at level 5 while single-classed?

[Galithar]

Thorn Whip doesn't pull them all the way to you. It's "up to 10 feet closer to you". You could still yank them off the ground by this method but not 20 feet.

[nickl_2000]

For you metamagic, you definitely need quicken instead of twinned (for the reasons mentioned above).

[da newt]

I'm playing an Aarakocra with thorn whip, but will be keeping it simple w/ just the normal 10' pull and then fall damage + prone. My main focus will be on normal shepherd druid stuff (summons), but I'm hoping that swooping in to do a little damage and leave someone prone will really help our martial PCs.

I will also be trying to convince my DM that SPIKE GROWTH + falling 10' and landing prone should do a bit more damage (maybe if standing up costs you 15' movement then it should result in 3*2d4 damage to be knocked prone in the AoE ...) I don't think there is anything RAW to cover this, but it seems logical to me.

Of course yanking across the AoE will be handy to create damage and keep them in the AoE. And then there are diagonal pulls to move folks and drop them.

Our second encounter of the campaign was on a ship - it really played into my hands. I don't think my DM will be throwing me softballs like that very often ...

[MrStabby]

So my benchmark would be something like a fiend pact warlock with thorn whip from pact of the tome, eldritch blast with repelling blast and wall of fire.

I am not saying this is better, but it is a simpler way of doing a lot of damage based on positioning.

If you wanted to get more complex a hexblade (pact of tome) with something like nature cleric can get spirit guardians and spike growth to use with hexblades curse (swap to arcana cleric if you want magic missile, to forge cleric if you prefer wall of fire)




I guess I am saying I am a little uncertain how you picked your classes. Is sorcerer simply there to impact more things simultaniously?

[Foff]

you can solve all the thorn whip problems (no multi cast, low range, needing metamagic) by just picking Grasp of Hadar on a flying warlock (aaracockra or tiefling) tbh, it also deals more damage on the cantrip itself, scales better, you can create a similar hazard mechanic sticking a hunger of hadar midair and looking through it with devil's sight, you also get full cover protecting from ranged attacks and spells as long as the sphere is between you and your enemies.

[Man_Over_Game]

you can solve all the thorn whip problems (no multi cast, low range, needing metamagic) by just picking Grasp of Hadar on a flying warlock (aaracockra or tiefling) tbh, it also deals more damage on the cantrip itself, scales better, you can create a similar hazard mechanic sticking a hunger of hadar midair and looking through it with devil's sight, you also get full cover protecting from ranged attacks and spells as long as the sphere is between you and your enemies.

Aarokocran Sorlock spamming a Quickened Grasp of Hadar Eldritch Blast?

That seems...problematic. Unfortunately, I think the official rules would be that the creature would fall as soon as the first casting ended (so shoot two bolts, creature falls, shoot second two bolts), but still really obnoxious and funny to watch. Trying to watch your DM justify how you're yanking this knight 5 feet into the air once per second without the Knight falling prone or taking extra damage would be really...I dunno...funny.

"IT JUST DOESN'T, OKAY?!"

[Citadel97501]

OK, I am going through each of the issues noted, as I do see some of the issues being misunderstandings of the methods I took to get these benefits.

Problem 1: Thorn Whip has a range of 30ft, not 35ft.
Problem 2: Twin spell cannot let the same spell target the same creature twice.
Problem 3: If one of the Thorn Whips miss, no Spirit Guardian Damage.
Problem 4: Using Quicken Spell at 25ft instead is viable, and gets the same net effect, except you still get SG damage even on one miss.
Problem 5: Thorn Whip doesn't pull them all the way to you. It's "up to 10 feet closer to you". You could still yank them off the ground by this method but not 20 feet.
Problem 6: Flying Race Warlocks do it better...

Answers
1) Spell Sniper increases the range to 60' Frankly this is something I think Warlocks should heavily consider as well simply for the cover negation.
2) Correct, but I was suggesting separate targets so you have a strong chance of always hitting at least one target.
3) Good Point, but isn't that normal for anyone you miss with your attack anyway?
4) We can't use Quicken as our Bonus Action is being used to fly. Yes, this hurts but it also lets us switch out quick cast which is overused in my opinion, and is weaker with Clerics since we have so many bonus action spells, and other things.
5) Sea Sorcerer allows you to drag one of the targets up to 25' instead of the base 10'. Although this causes an issue where you can't cause as much damage to the 2nd target. Then again the twin cast thing was mainly just for something else to do, other aoe's will be much better when dealing with multiple targets.
6) I definitely agree that Flying Race, Warlocks will likely do this entire task a bit easier, however I expect any ST to beat you over the head for persistant flight without action cost.

[HappyDaze]

OK, I am going through each of the issues noted, as I do see some of the issues being misunderstandings of the methods I took to get these benefits.

Problem 1: Thorn Whip has a range of 30ft, not 35ft.

Problem 6: Flying Race Warlocks do it better...

Answers
1) Spell Sniper increases the range to 60' Frankly this is something I think Warlocks should heavily consider as well simply for the cover negation.


Spell Sniper doesn't increase the range of Thorn Whip since it is not a ranged attack. It is a melee attack with a range of 30 feet.

[Quietus]

Spell Sniper doesn't increase the range of Thorn Whip since it is not a ranged attack. It is a melee attack with a range of 30 feet.

Half accurate. It does increase the range, but it doesn't negate the existence of cover.

You have learned techniques to enhance your attacks with certain kinds of spells, gaining the following benefits:
When you cast a spell that requires you to make an attack roll, the spell's range is doubled.
Your ranged spell attacks ignore half cover and three-quarters cover.
You learn one cantrip that requires an attack roll. Choose the cantrip from the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell list. Your spellcasting ability for this cantrip depends on the spell list you chose from: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid; or Intelligence for wizard.

[Citadel97501]

Half accurate. It does increase the range, but it doesn't negate the existence of cover.

You have learned techniques to enhance your attacks with certain kinds of spells, gaining the following benefits:
When you cast a spell that requires you to make an attack roll, the spell's range is doubled.
Your ranged spell attacks ignore half cover and three-quarters cover.
You learn one cantrip that requires an attack roll. Choose the cantrip from the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell list. Your spellcasting ability for this cantrip depends on the spell list you chose from: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid; or Intelligence for wizard.

My edition of the book says "your ranged spell attacks ignore half cover, and 3/4 cover". page 170 PHB?

[Galithar]

My edition of the book says "your ranged spell attacks ignore half cover, and 3/4 cover". page 170 PHB?

Thorn Whip oddly isn't a ranged attack. It's a melee spell attack with a 30 foot reach.


You create a long, vine-like whip covered in thorns that lashes out at your command toward a creature in range. Make a melee spell attack against the target.

Emphasis mine

[Citadel97501]

Thorn Whip oddly isn't a ranged attack. It's a melee spell attack with a 30 foot reach.
Emphasis mine

Oh good catch, well that eliminates the cover benefit but keeps the range benefit.

(Editted after rereading)

[8wGremlin]

When you cast a spell that requires you to make an attack roll, the spell's range is doubled.



does Thornwhip require you to make an attack roll - yes
the spell Thornwhip has it's ranged doubled


Your ranged spell attacks ignore half cover and three-quarters cover.


is the spell Thornwhip a ranged spell attack - no
the spell Thornwhip does not ignore half cover and three-quarters cover


Does this affect the pull aspect of the spell

no the feat says nothing about this


Does Sea Sorcery Sorcerer have an affect upon the spell - yes


Curse of the SeaWhen you choose this origin at 1st level, you learn the secret of infusing your spells with a watery curse.When you hit a creature with a cantrip’s attack or when a creature fails a saving throw against your cantrip, you can curse the target until the end of your next turn or until you curse a different creature with this feature.Once per turn when you cast a spell, you can trigger the curse if that spell deals cold or lightning damage to the cursed target or forces it to move. Doing so subjects the target to the appropriate additional effect below, and then the curse ends if the spell isn’t a cantrip (you choose the effect to use if more than one effect applies):

Cold Damage. If the affected target takes cold damage from your spell, the target’s speed is also reduced by 15 feet until the end of your next turn. If the spell already reduces the target’s speed, use whichever reduction is greater.

Lightning Damage. If the affected target takes lightning damage from your spell, the target takes additional lightning damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

Forced Movement. If the target is moved by your spell, increase the distance it is moved by 15 feet.



is Thornwhip Cold damage - no
is Thornwhip Lightning damage - no
does Thornwhip force the target to move - yes
Sea Sorcerer causes the distance to be moved by 15 feet, thus Thornwhip now moves 25ft


The original OP knows what they are talking about.