Min-maxing Crossbow Hexblade 1/19 Bard - Whisper vs Swords?

[Benny89]

I wonder what to chose: Whisper or Sword Bard for subclass.

The goal is simple: having full caster but with great martial DPR thanks to combination of Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter + Variant Human early feat. Combine that with Hexblade for SAD, CHA, medium armors, Curse + Shield spell. Using hand crossbow of course to have 2 attacks from level 1.

Start with Hexblade 1, continue with Bard.

Feat Pattern: 1- CE, 5- SS, 9- +2 CHA, 13 - +2 CHA.

Now Pros and Cons:

Whisper Bard Pros: better early damage 1-7 due to Physic Blades. 2d6 early and 3d6 later at early levels + 2 attacks is great DPR for a full caster build. Can get advantage from Fearie Fire spam. Also at high levels (15+) he gets insanse DPR with using Tenser Transformation (advantage + force damage + extra attack) + Haste from his Sim (Sim taken as second Magic Secret). Leading to whooping (2d12 + d6 + 15) x 4 + 8d6, or 153 dpr. That is just DPR on top of being full caster. Also Physic Blades combos really really well with Hexblade Curse (which is gonna be use on bosses/semi-bosses due to short rest recovery), which can lead to massive crits. Thanks to Physic Blades- he benfits from Curse and Advantage little more than Swords. Better DPR vs high AC targets due to Physic Blades + Curse combo.

Whisper Bard Cons: till level 15 he has only 2 attacks, which leads to less probability to hit with Sharpshooter. Worse defense (only Shield spell + Armor of Agathys + medium armor) and no combat control/utility outside of spells. His kit features are super strong only if there is a lot of roleplaying to use them (Words of Terror, Mantle of Shadows etc. are all super strong only if campaign has opportunity for them).


Sword Pros: Extra Attack at level 7 allow for more shots to land Sharpshooter + using Fearie Fire/Greater Invisibility for advantage generation. This allow for 3 attacks from level 7-11 that outdamage Whisper bard a little. Flourishes work with range attacks. That means access to great defense with Defense Flourish (from 3.5 to 6.5 AC bonus till next turn), which allow (assuming at least one Defense Flourish per round) a constant huge AC bonus for 3-5 rounds. Combines with Shield Spell + half plate can lead to really good AC. Mobile Flourish gives utility in martial combat, allowing to push away enemies from you or from friends, or into hazardous effects. Can benefit from Greater Invisibility + haste/holy weapon combo as his best combination after level 15. Features always useful despite campaign character (less dependent than Whisper). Even though he has weaker damage combo after level 15 than Whipser - he can still cast non-concentration spells and having 3-4 attacks, while Whisper under Tensor can't cast any spells. Defense Flourish also gives better protection vs concentration breaking due to fact that no hit = no need for conc-check. Better DPR vs low AC targets

Sword Cons: Flourishes bonus damage is meh compare to Physic Blades. Despite 3 attacks with SS- he doesn't combo that well with Curse + Advantage due to SS not benefiting from critical roll. While Tenser Transformation does benefit him- the extra attack feature is wasted on Sword Bard. His best combat buff combo after level 15 is probably Greater invisibility + Haste or Holy Weapon. Tensor is still viable, but not that benefiting. Worse DPR vs high AC targets than Whisper bard.


So yeah, I am sold on that build, becasue it seems like perfect mix of martial/caster with extra attacks, good DPR and full caster progression but I am torn between those 2 subclasses.

My playstyle will mostly revovle around using Fearie Fire level 1-6. Levels 6-11 will focus probably on Fearie Fire/Hypnotic Pattern/CC spells with Healing Word as emergency. Generally idea is to drop a good support/control spell and then stick to your hand crossbow as your source of steady DPR. At levels 9+ I can start using Greater Invisibility more. At level 11 Magic Secrets I think about Find Greater Steed/Haste/Holy Weapon/Counter Spell, some 2 of those. Level 14 is Sim + Tensor for Whisper, SIM + something for Sword.

So I am at so called "decision paralysis" and I have no idea what will be better overall for my caster archer (well, crossbow man to be precise...).

EDIT: Why no swift quiver? Crossbow Expert is better because: no penalty in melee range, bonus attack from level 1 instead of level 11 and I think it's better to save concentration for stronger options like Fearie Fire, hypnotic pattern etc.

[Dork_Forge]

It depends what is more important to you, Whispers gives you a kind of Smite whilst Swords gives you maneuvers. I personally prefer Swords, some things you havent considered: Slashing Flourish allows you to deal auto damage to another target within 5ft, you have the option of using melee weapons to switch damage types or take advantage of magic weapon loot, from character level 15 you can flourish every single turn with Master's Flourish and still have the option of inspiring your allies and you can use your hand crossbow as a casting focus.

[Quietus]

It depends what is more important to you, Whispers gives you a kind of Smite whilst Swords gives you maneuvers. I personally prefer Swords, some things you havent considered: Slashing Flourish allows you to deal auto damage to another target within 5ft, you have the option of using melee weapons to switch damage types or take advantage of magic weapon loot, from character level 15 you can flourish every single turn with Master's Flourish and still have the option of inspiring your allies and you can use your hand crossbow as a casting focus.

Unfortunately, swords bard can only use a melee weapon as a casting focus. Though you wouldn't be able to use a shield in your other hand anyway, due to needing to have that free hand to reload, so that should be a moot point. Crossbow Expert removes the Loading property, but the section requiring a free hand for ammunition is separate from that.

[Dork_Forge]

Unfortunately, swords bard can only use a melee weapon as a casting focus. Though you wouldn't be able to use a shield in your other hand anyway, due to needing to have that free hand to reload, so that should be a moot point. Crossbow Expert removes the Loading property, but the section requiring a free hand for ammunition is separate from that.

My bad you're right! Weird that they made that melee specific but not the Flourishes.

[Skylivedk]

Don't you need 3 levels of warlock, pact of blade and improved pact weapon to get sad on a crossbow?

[Benny89]

Don't you need 3 levels of warlock, pact of blade and improved pact weapon to get sad on a crossbow?

No, because HAND CROSSBOW is one-handed weapon so it works straight on level 1 Hexblade Warlock due to Hex Warrior. You need 3 levels + pack of blade to make 2-handed weapons work with Hexblade.

As long as you stick to one-handed you are SAD CHA with just 1 dip.

Hexblades are so great dips....

[Eldariel]

Down the line, Swords Bard does get Extra Attack and that gives extra value for e.g. Holy Weapon (a great Magical Secrets pick). Indeed, you'll probably outdamage a Whispers Bard pretty easily post-level 6. I built a Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter Swords Bard (you get all relevant proficiencies by default and have a hand free for somatics so it's all good), which hits about 100 DPR on level 12 (of course, that's far from perfect).

[Skylivedk]

No, because HAND CROSSBOW is one-handed weapon so it works straight on level 1 Hexblade Warlock due to Hex Warrior. You need 3 levels + pack of blade to make 2-handed weapons work with Hexblade.

As long as you stick to one-handed you are SAD CHA with just 1 dip.

Hexblades are so great dips....

Thanks, reread pact of the blade, not Hexblade before posting.

I'm so happy in my house rules (not used in the group where I'm the player), Hexblade has been dissolved and most features turned to invocations (Hexblade's Curse)/Pact of the Blade (Cha to weapon attacks and proficiencies).

Back to topic. Are you considering a fighter dip for Archery? +2 hit is nothing to sneeze at.

[Benny89]

Thanks, reread pact of the blade, not Hexblade before posting.

I'm so happy in my house rules (not used in the group where I'm the player), Hexblade has been dissolved and most features turned to invocations (Hexblade's Curse)/Pact of the Blade (Cha to weapon attacks and proficiencies).

Back to topic. Are you considering a fighter dip for Archery? +2 hit is nothing to sneeze at.

I do, but only after level 11 at best. 1 Level delay to Magic Secrets will be enough and I want to get my hands on some additional good spells before I will think about mundane class.

Besides Bard has easy access to advantage generation, which results in average +4.5 to hit so it compensates quite a lot the lack of Archery style. Fearie Fire, Greater Invisibility, Blindness, Tasha Laughter etc. are all good sources of advantage.

It also depends on campaign length because if we will be finishing on around level 15 then no additional dip because that's second magic secrets and Sim.

[dragoeniex]

I prefer Whispers myself, having played a build very similar to this for a long time. Crit fishing with it is a treat, and it creates a fun duality later where you serve as a full caster until something aggravates you enough to hit the Tenser's gish switch.

I like the contrast to all the social skills, myself. You can get a very suave secret agent kinda character who is both a crackshot and social manipulator. Also, Mantle of Whispers and Shadow Lore can both be used in combat with some creativity.

[Benny89]

I prefer Whispers myself, having played a build very similar to this for a long time. Crit fishing with it is a treat, and it creates a fun duality later where you serve as a full caster until something aggravates you enough to hit the Tenser's gish switch.

I like the contrast to all the social skills, myself. You can get a very suave secret agent kinda character who is both a crackshot and social manipulator. Also, Mantle of Whispers and Shadow Lore can both be used in combat with some creativity.

I did some math on my own (though I am nowhere as good at it as Ludic or some other math-wizards here) and what came out is:

Level 1-7 - Whisper bard provides better DPR due to Physic Blades. However, you need level 5th bard to get your Inspiration dice back, so you are left before that with 3 Physic Blades/Long rest which is very very few considering it's our main damage boost. On the other hand Swords Bard Defensive Flourish used even once per 1 encounter gives us really nice AC boost, considering monst encounters don't exceed 3 rounds.

Once we hit level 5 with Bard however, Whisper can pretty much use Physic Blade every encounter which really helps his DPR. He also crit more with Fearie Fire and Curse combo. But he needs advantage so we can increase our crit chance as much as possible.

Level 7-14 - Swords Bard gets better DPR here due to Extra Attack, allowing for 3 attacks per turn. He also combos really well with Holy Weapon at this point vs targets when you can't use your Sharpshooter. Curse + Holy Weapon vs boss even without SS but with 3 x 120 feet range attacks is devastating DPR.

Levels 15+ - Whisper wins hands down here with devastating combo of Tenser + Haste:

Whisper (2d12 + d6 + 15) x 4 + 8d6, which is 146 dpr.

Swords with Tenser + Holy Weapon would be 3 x (2d12 + d6 + 15 + 2d8) = 115,5 DPR.
Swords with Tenser + Haste would be 4x (2d12 + d6 + 15) = 125 DPR.

Let's compare DPR when we use Holy Weapon + Greater Invisibility/Haste combo

(GI + HW) Whisper 2 x (1d6 + 15 + 2d8) + 8d6 = 83 DPR..
(GI + HW) Swords 3 x (18,5 +2d8) = 82,5 DPR.

(HW + H) Whisper 3 x 27,5 + 8d6 = 110,5 DPR
(HW + H) Swords 4 x 27,5 = 110 DPR.

So as we can see the biggest factor here is Tensor for Whispers, providing them with increased DPR over Swords. Without Tensor, using other buffs spells- their DPR is pretty much the same.

So Whisper 1-7, Swords 7-15, Whisper 15-20. This is tough because it depends from your campaign and tiers you will be playing.

The other problem is Magic Secrets. Whisper can take Haste no problem at level 11 as extra attack combo really well with his Physic Blades. However for Swords- Holy Weapon is more beneficial before level 15 when Tensor + Haste is the ultimate combo. Sadly you can't change Magic Secrets to non-bard spells... so as Swords you would need to take either Holy Weapon + Haste and miss on Greater Steed or Miss out Holy Weapon, because we need to take Sim + Tensor at level 15. Holy Weapon is important for Swords because without SS activated their DPR is poor. Whisper even without SS bonus damage always has his Physic Blades active, which can crit for really big chunk of damage.

So with Whisper we go straight for Haste + FGS at level 11 and TT and Sim at level 15.

With Swords we need to either give up FFG, Haste or Holy Weapon.

[DarknessEternal]

What were FGS and FFG again?

[Quietus]

Levels 15+ - Whisper wins hands down here with devastating combo of Tenser + Haste:

How are you combining these? Both those spells require concentration.

[Benny89]

How are you combining these? Both those spells require concentration.

Simulacrum. At level 14 Magic Secrets you take Simulacrum as your second Magic Secret. Simulacrum knows all your spells and abilities. So you cast Tenser on yourself and Simulacrum casts Haste on you since Sim has it's own concentration. Just leave Simulacrum behind or let it ride it's own Pegasus/Gryffon and also shoot from Hand Crossbow for additional DPR.

[Benny89]

What were FGS and FFG again?

Sorry, typo. It should be in both cases FGS so Find Greater Steed.

[DarknessEternal]

Sorry, typo. It should be in both cases FGS so Find Greater Steed.

OK, then my further question is why bother with a steed?

[Benny89]

OK, then my further question is why bother with a steed?

Because it's a non-concentration flying. And for range character flying is superb due to fact that all melee enemies can kiss you goodbye and if you stick to 120 feet range only spells that has that range can reach you. You can snipe range enemies and don't worry about worst scenario for any range/backline character- being charged in melee. Also it's "free". Once cast it- you have steed till it dies. It died? No problem. Cast again.

Not only that but once you get Sim - both you and Sim can ride their steeds and you both can rain down crossbow damage or leave your enemy swarmed with 2x Animated Objects and you just fly away from his reach.

Not to mention utility like scouting, transport etc.

Also your Steed shares any spell that have range: self so for example it also gets Haste.

[DarknessEternal]

Simulacrum is only useful on forums. In actual play, using it combat means it lasts one combat.

[Benny89]

Simulacrum is only useful on forums. In actual play, using it combat means it lasts one combat.

As I said- you can use it in combat, you don't have to. Just use it as source of another concentration buff spell. Then leave it behind away from fight. Concentration doesn't have range. It's still used to combo Tenser + Haste on Archer Bard. Then just leave Sim behind and make it close itself in ForceCage for safety if you have to. There are tons of ways to make Sim work, it requires little imagination and tactic.

And you can still cheese it later with Wish-Sim loop.

[Eldariel]

Simulacrum is only useful on forums. In actual play, using it combat means it lasts one combat.

Okay, that's only as true as saying any character is useful only on forums. Simulacrum is essentially an extra character casting 7th level spells. If you can't find ways to make that work, it's probable the spellcaster that made it is dying a swift death as well. Spells are the #1 defense of spellcasters and Simulacrum has spells.

[Skylivedk]

I don't get how getting access to doubling your spell slots cannot be on the best abilities in the game.

Use Inspiring Leader on Simulacrum. You'll add another 20 hp per short rest. Stealth will go a long way. Keep it at a safe distance.

[Eldariel]

Btw, 18-20 features Shapechange instead of Tenser, which e.g. in Planetar form is absurdly powerful; +5d8 on all your attacks (so over twice more than Tenser's). Of course, 9th level spells are 9th level spells but it's worth mentioning if we're talking about the 15+ levels anyways.


I don't get how getting access to doubling your spell slots cannot be on the best abilities in the game.

Use Inspiring Leader on Simulacrum. You'll add another 20 hp per short rest. Stealth will go a long way. Keep it at a safe distance.

Another Concentration is potentially even more important than doubling your spell slots. Concentration is the single biggest restriction on casters and Simulacrum gets around it.

[Quietus]

Simulacrum. At level 14 Magic Secrets you take Simulacrum as your second Magic Secret. Simulacrum knows all your spells and abilities. So you cast Tenser on yourself and Simulacrum casts Haste on you since Sim has it's own concentration. Just leave Simulacrum behind or let it ride it's own Pegasus/Gryffon and also shoot from Hand Crossbow for additional DPR.

I guess? But I expect that a more appropriate calculation at game table level would be leaving Simulacrum out of this. Not every bard will want to get it as a secret, and I'd wager there's no small number of DMs that would balk at allowing every caster to simply be two of themselves.

[Benny89]

I guess? But I expect that a more appropriate calculation at game table level would be leaving Simulacrum out of this. Not every bard will want to get it as a secret, and I'd wager there's no small number of DMs that would balk at allowing every caster to simply be two of themselves.

WTF? You can't leave Simulacrum out of this. It's official spell on offical spell list and Magic Secrets says you can learn ANY spell from ANY spell list. And I never met DM who would not allow Simulacrum or any other spell that is official, especially when it comes to Magic Secrets, because it's like not allowing extra attack on fighter. Such douche DM would immidietly be asked to leave my house.

And not every bard will want it as secret? Well, how it's relevant for this discussion - this is thread about min-maxing crossbow bard. Min-maxing players will take Sim every single time no matter if they do Hexblad/Lore Bard caster build (double Animated Objects, double Conjure Animals, double polymorph, double counter spell etc.), Hexblade/Sword build (double buffs in melee, double Bigbys Hands etc.) or Crossnow/Bow Hexblade/Bard. Sim is always a min-maxer choice.

[Quietus]

WTF? You can't leave Simulacrum out of this. It's official spell on offical spell list and Magic Secrets says you can learn ANY spell from ANY spell list. And I never met DM who would not allow Simulacrum or any other spell that is official, especially when it comes to Magic Secrets, because it's like not allowing extra attack on fighter. Such douche DM would immidietly be asked to leave my house.

And not every bard will want it as secret? Well, how it's relevant for this discussion - this is thread about min-maxing crossbow bard. Min-maxing players will take Sim every single time no matter if they do Hexblad/Lore Bard caster build (double Animated Objects, double Conjure Animals, double polymorph, double counter spell etc.), Hexblade/Sword build (double buffs in melee, double Bigbys Hands etc.) or Crossnow/Bow Hexblade/Bard. Sim is always a min-maxer choice.

I get your point, my position is not appropriate for this thread. THis thread is for white room full gas optimization, in which case sure, Simulacrum is fair game. I was thinking at my tables where I am one of two optimizers, and using Simulacrum in this way would be wildly inappropriate and out of line with the rest of the party. Enjoy.

[Skylivedk]

WTF? You can't leave Simulacrum out of this. It's official spell on offical spell list and Magic Secrets says you can learn ANY spell from ANY spell list. And I never met DM who would not allow Simulacrum or any other spell that is official, especially when it comes to Magic Secrets, because it's like not allowing extra attack on fighter. Such douche DM would immidietly be asked to leave my house.

And not every bard will want it as secret? Well, how it's relevant for this discussion - this is thread about min-maxing crossbow bard. Min-maxing players will take Sim every single time no matter if they do Hexblad/Lore Bard caster build (double Animated Objects, double Conjure Animals, double polymorph, double counter spell etc.), Hexblade/Sword build (double buffs in melee, double Bigbys Hands etc.) or Crossnow/Bow Hexblade/Bard. Sim is always a min-maxer choice.

Strong reaction. Simulacrum in its current form is auto-banned in its current form at any table I DM. The table is more than happy with that. None of us have understood why it even exists as is.

At the table where I'm a player it's under consideration. I've the opposite experience: I've yet to meet a DM that doesn't have qualms about simulacrum. Granted, we usually run open world'ish kind of games.

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

The most damage that comes from both classes starts around level 10 for them. Swords get an extra attack, so if you're going ranged with crossbow expert/sharpshooter you don't have a fighting style that accommodates that. BUT you get 2 main attacks and 1 bonus action attack, which at level 10 will be...(calculations based on base stats, no shenanigans other than feats and class abilities)

3D6 + 12 dex (+4 dex x 3) + 30 from sharpshooter + 1D8 flourish (avg 4.5 damage) = 57 average damage, assuming all 3 hit.
If you do this with Whisper bard it'll be 2D6 + 8 dex + 20 SS + 5D6 from psychic blades at 10 (averages to 17.5) = 52.5 average damage.

Sword bard plateaus at 10/11 with this build despite their bardic inspiration die increasing as you level, where whisper bard gets a slight damage increase at 15 from the upgrade to psychic blades increasing to 8D6.
3D6 + 15 dex (5 dex x 3) + 30 from sharpshooter + 1D12 flourish or 1D6 if you use the reusable flourish at 14 (avg 6.5 damage from D12, 3.5 from D6) from a flourish = 62
2D6 + 10 dex + 20 SS + 8D6 from psychic blades at 15 (averages to 28) = 65

Both calculations don't factor in + weapons.

Mix in swift quiver with either of these builds and you're pumping out 3 attacks with whisper bard, 4 with sword bard. Both are respectable damage outputs for those levels and I can tell you from experience that a T3 whisper bard with elven accuracy is no joke. Just make sure to take catnap as a 3rd level spell choice so you can keep using those flourishes and psychic blades.

Honestly, with either of these builds the damage differences are negligible, so it really comes down to the ribbons. Whisper bards can be a terrifying face for the party with their fluff abilities like words of terror, and it's really fun stealing an enemy's shadow and posing as them. Sword bard is more front loaded with the extra attack, fighting style and medium armor proficiency. Both builds are incredibly strong without the hexblade dips.