What's The Best Pact Boon For A Celestial Patron Warlock?

[Amechra]

Exactly what the title says - my first instinct is that they make really good Chainlocks. Gift of the Ever-Living Ones can crank up any self-targeted uses of Cure Wounds or Healing Light for incredibly solid durability, and you get some extra range on Cure Wounds when you need it.

However, I'm not sure that that beats out a solidly-built Tomelock. Thoughts?

[Teaguethebean]

I like tome personally because of how much it gives you in versatility. With rituals and the like you are just unmatched in versatility.

[Man_Over_Game]

You can pull off some fun combos with Chain's self-healing and using the Divine Soul Sorcerer to Twin Warding Bond on two allies. Be a self-healing martyr. Tack on a single level of Life Cleric (if you can afford the Wisdom) for Heavy Armor proficiency and further improve the damage absorption with Heavy Armor Master.

Overall, though, I think the Celestial already has enough cantrips. With Sacred Flame, you don't really need Eldritch Blast...so what else do you invest in? I'd only recommend Tome for a Celestial if you had plans to get the Ritual invocation, which I'd only recommend if your team wasn't already loaded with casters.

I guess a good question to ask yourself is how many scouts does your team have vs. casters? Fill whatever niche has the most space.

[Trask]

I'm playing a celestial warlock with pact of the chain at the moment, and I find it useful. Like MoG said, I think the value of extra cantrips is diminished for a celestial warlock, you really have all your bases covered. Sacred flame hits pesky zombies that refuse to die, and enemies behind cover. Light serves all your light needs. Not saying there aren't some good picks still, but its not as valuable as it could be for you. And pact of the chain adds a lot of versatility and fun to the class, and by your cure wounds and healing light spell and feature, you combo well with gift of the ever-living ones, so I'd say go with that.

[Zetakya]

Obviously there are differences in the application of Sacred Flame vs Eldritch Blast, with SF being DEX save and EB being RSA.

If you do go with Tome then Fire Bolt is the direct counterpart to EB, and Radiant Soul is effectively the same as Agonizing Blast for it (as well as affecting lots of other spells).

Are you allowed the UA class options? There's lots of good Tome and Chain invocations, as well as Pact Of The Talisman which lends itself rather well to Celestial in terms of theme.

[Nagog]

You can pull off some fun combos with Chain's self-healing and using the Divine Soul Sorcerer to Twin Warding Bond on two allies. Be a self-healing martyr. Tack on a single level of Life Cleric (if you can afford the Wisdom) for Heavy Armor proficiency and further improve the damage absorption with Heavy Armor Master.

Overall, though, I think the Celestial already has enough cantrips. With Sacred Flame, you don't really need Eldritch Blast...so what else do you invest in? I'd only recommend Tome for a Celestial if you had plans to get the Ritual invocation, which I'd only recommend if your team wasn't already loaded with casters.

I guess a good question to ask yourself is how many scouts does your team have vs. casters? Fill whatever niche has the most space.

I like that build, seems quite useful!
As for tome, I'd also point out if you're going for the healer role, it's always nice to have Spare the Dying, which otherwise isn't available to Celestial Warlocks. A level dip into Cleric will do that too.

[Man_Over_Game]

I like that build, seems quite useful!
As for tome, I'd also point out if you're going for the healer role, it's always nice to have Spare the Dying, which otherwise isn't available to Celestial Warlocks. A level dip into Cleric will do that too.

Spare the Dying is kind of redundant when you have a ranged heal as a Bonus Action.

[Misterwhisper]

Chain is amazing:

Invisible flying spy and pet
Gift of the ever living ones is a massive efficiency boost on self healing
An invisible pet that can deliver touch healing spells is also very nice.

Tome is just as good but different.
Tome is great for utility, you could still get an owl for a pet to do a lot of the same things your invisible one will
Shillelagh is an autopick, just wish there was an easy way to use shields without a feat.
Assuming your DM works with you just a little, you can get many rituals added to your tome.
In some modules though that might not be too easy.

Pact of Blades is just not worth the investment, just use GFB if you have to if things get in melee.

[BlaueBlume]

Celestial is actually the second best patron for bladelocks. None of your abilities scale off charisma too much, and you get some spells that don't need it like revivify and greater restoration. So you can just focus on your weapon stat and eldritch smites, and you have some nice and flexible extra healing. The capstone is also better if you are in melee

[Yakmala]

I went with Tome for my Celestial Warlock, more for the rituals than the extra cantrips, though those are nice as well.

As I'm playing this character in AL, I see a wider variety of players week over week at various local game shops and conventions which means ample opportunities to copy rituals from wizards at the table and purchase ritual scrolls from merchants.

[1Pirate]

AFB, but I'm pretty sure Radiant soul isn't comparable to Agonizing blast. Radiant soul only affects one damage die, AB affects them all(so 2d8+Cha vs. 1d10+Cha×2).

Edit: Wrong multiplier on EB

[da newt]

I can't speak to optimization, but I find Chainlocks w/ IMP to be very fun / useful. The Imp familiar is so handy if you really lean into using it to it's fullest.

For non-hexblade warlocks, a 1 lvl dip in fighter can be very handy for armor & shield prof, def FS, and 2nd wind. A 1 lvl cleric dip can also be really handy.

I'm playing an AL legal Yuan-ti fiend/chain-lock w/ 1 lvl fighter dip. This get me an IMP (at will HELP action), 19 AC w/ shield and breastplate and def FS, temp HP, 2nd wind, and ADV on almost all saves. My DPR may not be optimized, but I'm pretty resilient.

[Man_Over_Game]

AFB, but I'm pretty sure Radiant soul isn't comparable to Agonizing blast. Radiant soul only affects one damage die, AB affects them all(so 2d8+Cha vs. 1d10+Cha×3).

It's not necessarily about damage, but about niche.

Where you see less damage from basic attacks, I see an extra 1-2 invocations and a cantrip. Is an extra 5 damage on casting a cantrip worth the same as Disguise Self at will?

Fireball deals an average of 25 damage to each target you hit, assuming a 40% save chance, hitting an 8x8 grid (64 spots). +5 damage on a cantrip isn't going to be setting too many records.

[Galithar]

It's not necessarily about damage, but about niche.

Where you see less damage from basic attacks, I see an extra 1-2 invocations and a cantrip. Is an extra 5 damage on casting a cantrip worth the same as Disguise Self at will?

Fireball deals an average of 25 damage to each target you hit, assuming a 40% save chance, hitting an 8x8 grid (64 spots). +5 damage on a cantrip isn't going to be setting too many records.

For many Warlocks it's not +5 damage.
At level 5 it's often 1d6+5 (Hex and Agonizing) that just increases as you level. At level 11 it's worth 2d6+10. That's enough extra damage per attack to really make a difference. For the cost of an invocation. And a Cantrip that changes you from an attack roll that can Crit to a Dex save, which can be good or bad, but maybe it's just me I'd rather have both. Sacred Flame for xd8+5 Radiant as a back up when attacking high AC targets (including those in cover or when an enemy is within 5 feet to give disadvantage)

[Man_Over_Game]

[...]
For the cost of an invocation. [...]

And a cantrip.

It's good damage, don't get me wrong, but those without it probably aren't feeling too hurt with just Sacred Flame and whatever else they would have been able to nab with an extra Cantrip and invocation.

[Dork_Forge]

Celestial is actually the second best patron for bladelocks. None of your abilities scale off charisma too much, and you get some spells that don't need it like revivify and greater restoration. So you can just focus on your weapon stat and eldritch smites, and you have some nice and flexible extra healing. The capstone is also better if you are in melee

-Wait what? All of their abilities scale off of Charisma:

-Healing Light you can only spend as many d6s as your Cha mod, so unless you want to just yoyo heal you'll need it at a +4 preferably +5

-Radiant Soul is just Radiant resistance (how often does that come up for PCs?) and then adding your Cha to radiant and fire damage

-Celestial Resilience includes your Cha mod for both you and the party

-Searing Vengeance the damage also adds your Cha.

Of all of the patrons is probably one of the more Cha dependent.

[Biggstick]

-Wait what? All of their abilities scale off of Charisma:

-Healing Light you can only spend as many d6s as your Cha mod, so unless you want to just yoyo heal you'll need it at a +4 preferably +5

Using a single d6 brings someone up from 0 HP just as well as using multiple d6s.


-Radiant Soul is just Radiant resistance (how often does that come up for PCs?) and then adding your Cha to radiant and fire damage

If you're a ranged Bladelock, Sacred Flame is quite effective to use against a prone enemy. Otherwise, just continue using ranged attacks. Sacred Flame is a fall back option should you wish to attack an enemy's Dex saving throw instead of attacking their AC.


-Celestial Resilience includes your Cha mod for both you and the party

Celestial Resilience is going to be bringing more temporary HP through your Warlock level compared to your Cha mod. At the level you're gaining it (level 10), it's going to likely be somewhere between 12 (if you're getting just a small amount of Cha) and 15 (if you're maxing out Cha). Having the ability to provide this temporary HP in general is going to be what's powerful, and have 1-3 less temporary HP is going to be just fine.


-Searing Vengeance the damage also adds your Cha.

Searing Vengeance isn't about the damage done. Searing Vengeance is about the ability to come to life after being forced to make death saving throws. Additionally, the damage done is pitiful in general; the true value of the effect upon waking up is the ability to blind creatures of your choice with no saving throw allowed from the enemy. Doing a couple extra points of damage isn't a big deal here.


Of all of the patrons is probably one of the more Cha dependent.

Again, disagreed. The Celestial Pact Warlock brings healing and support. The Healing Light feature does it's job in being able to effectively cure the status condition of 0 hp whether you have 14 Charisma or 20. Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Revivify, and Greater Restoration all work well no matter what your Charisma modifier is. Celestial Resilience still provides a good amount of temporary HP to you and your party no matter what your Charisma is. Searing Vengeance still brings you back from 0 hp and blinds nearby creatures of your choice no matter what your Charisma is.

Of all the Patrons, Celestial is one of the LEAST Charisma dependent.

[Biggstick]

Personally I would say that there is no BEST Pact Boon for Celestial Warlocks. They are a support based Patron, and the boons differ in what they provide to Warlocks.

If you're lacking true scout character for your party, Pact of the Chain might be a really good route. Heck, it might even be a good route if you have a scout. Being able to put your Imp on top of a Rogue and relay information/communications in real time to your Rogue can be invaluable to a party.

If you're looking to provide even more support to a party through rituals and cantrips, Pact of the Tome will fit the bill quite nicely. There really isn't much else to say on Tome imo. What I will say is that both Pact of the Tome and Pact of the Chain advocate for you to have a higher Charisma, as both of these Pact Boons will typically end up taking Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Blast to maximize ranged damage output.

Lastly, if you're looking to martial damage to your party, you can do so through Pact of the Blade. While I don't think melee Bladelocks are a particularly strong way to play, I definitely see the merit of a ranged Bladelock. Being able to create a magic bow yourself without having to depend on a DM to provide one can be quite a boon to a character. Where as everyone else is unable to deal damage to a creature that's immune to non-magical weapons, you're sitting there still quite capable of doing damage. Sure, you could have built the character to utilize EB/AB, but sometimes players just want to be a little different then normal.

All the Pact Boons work phenomenally on a Celestial Pact Warlock. Though some might advocate to take Cure Wounds, I'd stay away personally. Pick up Lesser Restoration, Revivify, and Greater Restoration. Utilize your Healing Light when folks drop to 0 hp. Congratulations, you're now an effective healer in the party, and can build your Warlock to do anything else your heart desires.

[Dork_Forge]

Using a single d6 brings someone up from 0 HP just as well as using multiple d6s.



If you're a ranged Bladelock, Sacred Flame is quite effective to use against a prone enemy. Otherwise, just continue using ranged attacks. Sacred Flame is a fall back option should you wish to attack an enemy's Dex saving throw instead of attacking their AC.



Celestial Resilience is going to be bringing more temporary HP through your Warlock level compared to your Cha mod. At the level you're gaining it (level 10), it's going to likely be somewhere between 12 (if you're getting just a small amount of Cha) and 15 (if you're maxing out Cha). Having the ability to provide this temporary HP in general is going to be what's powerful, and have 1-3 less temporary HP is going to be just fine.



Searing Vengeance isn't about the damage done. Searing Vengeance is about the ability to come to life after being forced to make death saving throws. Additionally, the damage done is pitiful in general; the true value of the effect upon waking up is the ability to blind creatures of your choice with no saving throw allowed from the enemy. Doing a couple extra points of damage isn't a big deal here.



Again, disagreed. The Celestial Pact Warlock brings healing and support. The Healing Light feature does it's job in being able to effectively cure the status condition of 0 hp whether you have 14 Charisma or 20. Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Revivify, and Greater Restoration all work well no matter what your Charisma modifier is. Celestial Resilience still provides a good amount of temporary HP to you and your party no matter what your Charisma is. Searing Vengeance still brings you back from 0 hp and blinds nearby creatures of your choice no matter what your Charisma is.

Of all the Patrons, Celestial is one of the LEAST Charisma dependent.

You don't seem to really follow what I was saying, every single ability the Celestial gets makes use of the Cha mod. No patrons in the phb can say the same or close to that but I guess I'll address what you said in order, doing but by bit quotes is hard on mobile.

I explicitly mentioned yoyo healing, not everyone wants to do that, it isn't in the sense of role playing to allow your team mates to start dying and it isn't always advantageous of letting them drops costs the team mate resources. Whether or not you like yoyo healing, Healing Lights effectiveness is directly tied to Cha.

I have no idea why you're talking about Sacred Flame, I didn't mention it and it isn't the only thing the ability can apply to. It can just as easily apply to Guiding Bolt and Fire Bolt as Green Flame Blade. It's a general damage boost that adds your Cha to two different damage types. The lower the Cha the less you will get out of your ability, there's no real arguing against that.

The temp hp is only your Warlock level for you, for other creatures it's half your Warlock level, meaning when you get it your Cha can literally double the potential amount of hit points.

I'm aware it isn't the point, I was highlighting the part of the feature that uses Cha.

I have no idea a how you can argue that (I think) the only patron to use Cha mod for ALL its abilities is the least dependent on Charisma. If you don't max your Charisma you get less out of your entire patron, it's as simple as that.

[Zetakya]

Personally I would say that there is no BEST Pact Boon for Celestial Warlocks. They are a support based Patron, and the boons differ in what they provide to Warlocks.

I'd argue that Blade is the worst Pact Boon for a Celestial Warlock, though. The benefits it brings simply don't gel with a Celestial Pact, even if using a Ranged Weapon.


If you're looking to provide even more support to a party through rituals and cantrips, Pact of the Tome will fit the bill quite nicely. There really isn't much else to say on Tome imo. What I will say is that both Pact of the Tome and Pact of the Chain advocate for you to have a higher Charisma, as both of these Pact Boons will typically end up taking Agonizing Blast and Eldritch Blast to maximize ranged damage output.

Will they? Tome can certainly be an effective and flexible damage caster without utilising Eldritch Blast, because Radiant Soul has a much more general applicability. High-functioning Eldritch Blasters are not without their costs, either, as the requirement for using Eldritch Invocations to buff your Eldritch Blast means you aren't taking something else in that slot.

Arguably, a Tomelock has the flexibility to damage from afar (via Fire Bolt or Sacred Flame), or up close (by comboing Shillelagh and Green Flame Blade) that your dedicated Eldritch Blaster just doesn't have.

Tome is the option for flexibility, I think.

[Chugger]

"Arguably, a Tomelock has the flexibility to damage from afar (via Fire Bolt or Sacred Flame), or up close (by comboing Shillelagh and Green Flame Blade) that your dedicated Eldritch Blaster just doesn't have."

While Tome makes a cantrip like Firebolt a Warlock spell, it doesn't - from my reading of the rules - changing it from an Int to a Char spell - meaning you need to be MAD to have a high Int to hit consistently with it.

Also, while yes it forces you to spend an invo you could have used for something else, a Blaster does so much more damage than a warlock fire bolter, even if the firebolter overcomes the Int problem. EB w/ invo and hex = 1d10 + 1d6 + 4 at lvl 4. Firebolt with hex is just 1d10 + 1d6 and so many things resist fire (devils are all immune). But at lvl 5 you get two EB's, each doing 1d10 + 1d6 +4.

The firebolt at lvl 5 is 2d10 + 1d6 with hex. That's 14.5. The two EB's are 13 + 13 = 26 damage. Almost twice as much. I think spending that invo for this is very much worth it.

Shillelagh at level 5 uses wisdom - again a MAD problem - and if 14 wis does 1d8 + 2 + 1d8 for gfb. That's 11 damage. It's 15.5 if an enemy is 5' away from target. Again EB does so much more - and does well over twice this option if no one is near your target.

So 5e is flexible and weaker builds can work - DMs usually make encounters easier if the characters aren't all optimized - so I'm not saying don't do this. If you wanna use your invo slots for other things it's not like you're completely worthless. And it's not like being super optimized is always so great, because DMs usually just make encounters much harder to keep up the challenge level. But I think it's important to understand all the nuances of these choices, because this is a very detailed and complex game. Hope this helps.

[Zetakya]

While Tome makes a cantrip like Firebolt a Warlock spell, it doesn't - from my reading of the rules - changing it from an Int to a Char spell - meaning you need to be MAD to have a high Int to hit consistently with it.

Wrong.

"Spellcasting Ability
Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your warlock spells, so you use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a warlock spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one."

Same applies to Shillelagh.

[Biggstick]

You don't seem to really follow what I was saying, every single ability the Celestial gets makes use of the Cha mod. No patrons in the phb can say the same or close to that but I guess I'll address what you said in order, doing but by bit quotes is hard on mobile.

I explicitly mentioned yoyo healing, not everyone wants to do that, it isn't in the sense of role playing to allow your team mates to start dying and it isn't always advantageous of letting them drops costs the team mate resources. Whether or not you like yoyo healing, Healing Lights effectiveness is directly tied to Cha.

I have no idea why you're talking about Sacred Flame, I didn't mention it and it isn't the only thing the ability can apply to. It can just as easily apply to Guiding Bolt and Fire Bolt as Green Flame Blade. It's a general damage boost that adds your Cha to two different damage types. The lower the Cha the less you will get out of your ability, there's no real arguing against that.

The temp hp is only your Warlock level for you, for other creatures it's half your Warlock level, meaning when you get it your Cha can literally double the potential amount of hit points.

I'm aware it isn't the point, I was highlighting the part of the feature that uses Cha.

I have no idea a how you can argue that (I think) the only patron to use Cha mod for ALL its abilities is the least dependent on Charisma. If you don't max your Charisma you get less out of your entire patron, it's as simple as that.

Every die added from Healing Light 3.5 average healing. At 14 Charisma, this is an average of 7 hp. At 18 Charisma (which in games I play in, one won't have this Cha until level 4 minimum), this is an average of 14 hp. At 20 Charisma (level 8, based on games I play in), this is an average of 17.5 hp. So, healing someone at level 8 with over half of your Healing Light dice gets you approximately 10 more HP. At that level, an additional 10 hp isn't going to be any different then 7 hp in my experience.

Healing Light's maximum output is tied to Charisma. It's effectiveness is tied to the fact that it's a ranged bonus action heal that isn't a spell. As such, it allows you to bring an ally up from 0 hp. "Yoyo" healing as you refer to it, is typically going to be the most effective use of your resources.

I'm talking about Sacred Flame because it's a 0 opportunity cost cantrip that is available to a Celestial Pact Warlock. You had to make 0 build choices to acquire it. To choose one of the 3 spells you recommended, you had to likely forego some opportunity to pick up said spell. I will agree that all of those spells benefit from Radiant Soul; the opportunity cost to pick up those spells (aside from possibly GFB) isn't worth it to me.

At the level you're gaining Celestial Resilience (level 10), a 14 Constitution d8 class has an average of 73 hp. If we assume the level 10 Celestial Pact Warlock has 14 Charisma, they will provide 7 temporary hp to allies. If we assume the level 10 Celestial Pact Warlock has 20 Charisma, they will provide 10 hp to allies. So the bonus being argued over here is comparing a 80 hp (normal hp + temporary hp) PC to a 83 hp (normal hp + temporary hp) PC. The difference is minuscule, and the level at which it's being gained makes the temporary hp more of a fringe benefit to those not already receiving a source of temporary hp.

What I'm getting at is that the Celestial Pact Warlock is an archetype in which a having a lower Charisma isn't going to prevent you from doing the job you're expected to do. Their numbers will be slightly lower, but they're still able to do the job of a support Warlock.

I would equate the strength of the Celestial Pact Warlock to heavy armor wearing Clerics. They can choose to max out their spell casting stat and receive all the benefits of doing so. Or, they can choose to focus on other aspects of their character like picking up Warcaster, Resilient Constitution, Lucky, or maximizing another stat (likely Constitution). The heavy armor wearing Cleric will still be able to toss out a Healing Word and get up an effective concentration spell (like Bless or Spirit Guardians). The spells they're electing to use likely don't require a high casting modifier. Sure, they would benefit from such, but the job is still done quite effectively.


I'd argue that Blade is the worst Pact Boon for a Celestial Warlock, though. The benefits it brings simply don't gel with a Celestial Pact, even if using a Ranged Weapon.

Will they? Tome can certainly be an effective and flexible damage caster without utilising Eldritch Blast, because Radiant Soul has a much more general applicability. High-functioning Eldritch Blasters are not without their costs, either, as the requirement for using Eldritch Invocations to buff your Eldritch Blast means you aren't taking something else in that slot.

Arguably, a Tomelock has the flexibility to damage from afar (via Fire Bolt or Sacred Flame), or up close (by comboing Shillelagh and Green Flame Blade) that your dedicated Eldritch Blaster just doesn't have.

Tome is the option for flexibility, I think.

I can definitely agree that Pact of the Blade is the most difficult/jarring boon to make fit for a Celestial Warlock. It requires a high Strength or Dexterity, as well as a reputable Charisma. If you're planning on being in melee, this will make you quite MAD, as you'll also need a respectable Constitution. You will also likely not have much variation for your ASIs, as you'll likely need to spend them all on stats (with perhaps room for one feat in the total build). That doesn't make it the worst pact choice to me though.

It's dependent on the game as to which Pact boon is worst imo. If your DM isn't one to regularly provide ritual spells, Pact of the Tome is going to feel bad after level 6 or so. Sure, you have extra cantrips and a pair of Rituals, but that isn't really all that much. Pact of the Chain provides a Warlock an incredible scouting tool; but what if you already have a pair of scout-type characters in the party? What if they've built their character around the concept of being the party scout who is able to sneak ahead and get valuable information? If you're an intelligent Player and you've picked up Pact of the Chain (as well as the corresponding Invocation to see through it's eyes), you have effectively removed the need to ever use a PC scout again. You will simply be able to scout better then them in every situation, especially at the lower levels. Even at higher levels, your invisible Imp (who can turn into inconspicuous creatures like a spider) will simply be an unmatched resource in regards to potential information gathering and scouting. Congratulations, you've completely invalidated someone's desired role in the party as the Charisma spell caster. And lastly is Pact of the Blade; I detailed above the difficulty of actually choosing said Pact, and will stand with it being the toughest one to implement well.

All that said, it depends on the game you're joining as to which Pact Boon is the worst.

A high functioning Eldritch Blast user simply needs to take the cantrip Eldritch Blast, then the Invocation Agonizing Blast, then the spell Hex. With those 3 choices, all of which can be made at level 2, you now have an effective combat strategy from levels 2 through 20. It will be an effective damage type and will scale well with levels. You don't need anything else, and can use Invocation slots for any flavor you're wanting on your Warlock.

Fighting in melee is something I'd prefer to avoid on my Tomelocks, as I'm likely building the character as a ranged caster (lacking feats like Warcaster and Lucky) and I'm maximizing my casting stat. As such, if I'm making the choice to go Tome, I'm spending two of my cantrips on Guidance and Mold Earth. I'd likely find some other utility cantrip, and if it had damage on it that would simply be a side effect of the utility (an example might be Thorn Whip). EB/AB satisfies all of the damage needs a character will need. As a Celestial Pact Warlock, you gain Sacred Flame with 0 opportunity cost. The best thing about the spell imo, is that it requires a saving throw. You know what's great about spells with saving throws when you're in melee range? They can be used just as effectively as when you're at ranged! If you're ever caught in melee range as a Celestial Pact Warlock, you can use Sacred Flame. Another fun use for Sacred Flame is using it on prone enemies, as you can avoid that pesky disadvantage from attacking their AC with EB.

All of the Boons are quite good imo. One of the best parts of Warlock is being able to mix Pacts with Boons and the differences it can generate in PCs. Add the varied backgrounds and racial choices one can make and the character possibilities can be practically endless.

[Dork_Forge]

Every die added from Healing Light 3.5 average healing. At 14 Charisma, this is an average of 7 hp. At 18 Charisma (which in games I play in, one won't have this Cha until level 4 minimum), this is an average of 14 hp. At 20 Charisma (level 8, based on games I play in), this is an average of 17.5 hp. So, healing someone at level 8 with over half of your Healing Light dice gets you approximately 10 more HP. At that level, an additional 10 hp isn't going to be any different then 7 hp in my experience.

Healing Light's maximum output is tied to Charisma. It's effectiveness is tied to the fact that it's a ranged bonus action heal that isn't a spell. As such, it allows you to bring an ally up from 0 hp. "Yoyo" healing as you refer to it, is typically going to be the most effective use of your resources.

I'm talking about Sacred Flame because it's a 0 opportunity cost cantrip that is available to a Celestial Pact Warlock. You had to make 0 build choices to acquire it. To choose one of the 3 spells you recommended, you had to likely forego some opportunity to pick up said spell. I will agree that all of those spells benefit from Radiant Soul; the opportunity cost to pick up those spells (aside from possibly GFB) isn't worth it to me.

At the level you're gaining Celestial Resilience (level 10), a 14 Constitution d8 class has an average of 73 hp. If we assume the level 10 Celestial Pact Warlock has 14 Charisma, they will provide 7 temporary hp to allies. If we assume the level 10 Celestial Pact Warlock has 20 Charisma, they will provide 10 hp to allies. So the bonus being argued over here is comparing a 80 hp (normal hp + temporary hp) PC to a 83 hp (normal hp + temporary hp) PC. The difference is minuscule, and the level at which it's being gained makes the temporary hp more of a fringe benefit to those not already receiving a source of temporary hp.

What I'm getting at is that the Celestial Pact Warlock is an archetype in which a having a lower Charisma isn't going to prevent you from doing the job you're expected to do. Their numbers will be slightly lower, but they're still able to do the job of a support Warlock.

I would equate the strength of the Celestial Pact Warlock to heavy armor wearing Clerics. They can choose to max out their spell casting stat and receive all the benefits of doing so. Or, they can choose to focus on other aspects of their character like picking up Warcaster, Resilient Constitution, Lucky, or maximizing another stat (likely Constitution). The heavy armor wearing Cleric will still be able to toss out a Healing Word and get up an effective concentration spell (like Bless or Spirit Guardians). The spells they're electing to use likely don't require a high casting modifier. Sure, they would benefit from such, but the job is still done quite effectively.


10hp can be the difference between soaking a hit and going back down, especially in the case of Barbarians for example. Fundamentally you advocate yoyo healing, that is a separate issue I'm not going to try and sway you from in this conversation.

It being a 0 opportunity cantrip has absolutely nothing to do with the ability, if you have an ability that bolsters fire and radiant, you are far more likely to take spells that deal that damage type. Though personally I don't even think that's an opportunity cost for leveled spells, the Warlocks issue is deciding what to cast, not spells known. And all of that is besides the point that the ability is just adding Cha to your damage, I'm not sure how much more Cha dependent an ability gets besides that.

No, the difference being argued here is that Cha is responsible for up to half of the potential thp granted to your allies (and a third to yourself) when you get the ability. That is a significant proportion, another ability signifcantly factoring in Cha. 10 free temp hp isn't really a fringe benefit imo (especially since it's a free familiar buff), across a party of 5 you're saving 40hp of damage, does that seem fringe?

...Then what archetypes in your opinion WOULD suffer from a lower Cha? The most obvious example is Hexblade, but you can just use your Dex and hey, you get your prof to spells and weapons anyway right? What patron has a higher dependency on Cha? Because looking at their abilities I'm not seeing anything that would be more convincing to you that the Celestial having ALL of their abilties tied to to varying degrees.

You're also advocating a support Warlock with what seems to be a 14 Cha, even at levels 1-3 that's below the expected curve, they AREN'T Clerics, they can't just cast Bless and sit back. So what support role are they filling that wouldn't utilise their low save DC or their very limited Helaing Light pool (even then your healing strategy has the Warlock waiting for people to be in danger of dying first)? They don't get Bless, Haste, Spirit Guardians etc. and if the party frequently requires yoyo healing multiple times in a combat then the Warlock would be better off actually investing in their primary stat and being more active in the combat, be it through control spells (with save DCs...) or attack spells.

[JackPhoenix]

And a cantrip.

It's good damage, don't get me wrong, but those without it probably aren't feeling too hurt with just Sacred Flame and whatever else they would have been able to nab with an extra Cantrip and invocation.

It's a big difference. It may not seem like much when it's 4.5 damage vs 5.5 damage at level 1, but you'll definitely notice when it's 23 vs 42 damage (and that's asusming no crits, which is another advantage to EB. Add 14... to EB only... when you use Hex.), with the former being all-or-nothing, and the later having a chance at least some beams hitting.

[Man_Over_Game]

It's a big difference. It may not seem like much when it's 4.5 damage vs 5.5 damage at level 1, but you'll definitely notice when it's 23 vs 42 damage (and that's asusming no crits, which is another advantage to EB. Add 14... to EB only... when you use Hex.), with the former being all-or-nothing, and the later having a chance at least some beams hitting.

At the same time, you're also talking about adding Concentration and casting a level 3 spell with a level 1 spell slot. While the Eldritch Blast Warlock is spending his Concentration on Hex, the other Warlock is casting Summon Lesser Demons or Flaming Sphere.

Celestial Warlocks can spend those extra resources (x2 cantrips, x1 invocations) into solving problems out of combat, likely to gain some sort of advantage that the Eldritch Blast version couldn't have afforded.

[KorvinStarmast]

Celestial Warlocks can spend those extra resources (x2 cantrips, x1 invocations) into solving problems out of combat, likely to gain some sort of advantage that the Eldritch Blast version couldn't have afforded. My Celestial is Tome. My ritual spell is find familiar. I currently have an owl. I use EB for damage, and I use Sacred Flame against undead or anyone who has a poor/disad Dex save.

The following rituals I now have thanks to the boosted tome: Alarm, Water Breathing, and Sky Write. (I think I also have Det Magic since I found it and I figured "put it in the book" and we have used it like six times)

[JackPhoenix]

At the same time, you're also talking about adding Concentration and casting a level 3 spell with a level 1 spell slot. While the Eldritch Blast Warlock is spending his Concentration on Hex, the other Warlock is casting Summon Lesser Demons or Flaming Sphere.

Celestial Warlocks can spend those extra resources (x2 cantrips, x1 invocations) into solving problems out of combat, likely to gain some sort of advantage that the Eldritch Blast version couldn't have afforded.

Hex only makes the gap wider, it's not necessary for it to exist. One invocation is all you need to do more or less double what SF can do. Unless you're playing bladelock, you aren't exactly starved for Invocation picks. I'm not sure what other cantrip you'd need to "spend" or what "casting level 3 spell with a level 1 spell slot" means.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hex only makes the gap wider, it's not necessary for it to exist. One invocation is all you need to do more or less double what SF can do. Unless you're playing bladelock, you aren't exactly starved for Invocation picks. I'm not sure what other cantrip you'd need to "spend" or what "casting level 3 spell with a level 1 spell slot" means.

Sorry, made a dumb mistake there. I mean that you're spending one of your Warlock Spell Slots to cast a level 1 spell. Even if it persists to another encounter, it will use your Concentration, and that Concentration means you run the risk of losing it before the upcasting is relevant.

What I meant regarding cantrips/invocations is that you can get an advantage by using the extra value Sacred Flame and Light brings you.

You have Light, so you aren't really concerned with being a Darkvision race (free feat!.. or its equivalent in racial features!). With the fact that you have extra cantrips, you can afford to get Friends and Minor Illusion, or maybe use Create Bonfire to support your melee combatants.

With your free Invocation, you can combine Friends with Mask of Many Faces for some serious shenanigans as you pretend to be the villian around town, or you can get Beast Speech to be able to get easy information from nearby animals while using your Pact of the Chain to double your means of communication. None of these cost spell slots, either.

There's a lot more you can do than just Eldritch Blast and Eldritch Blast Invocations. You get Flaming Sphere and Wall of Fire, both enhanced by Radiant Soul. Do you need much more damage than that?

[1Pirate]

Having played a Celestial Warlock, the real advantage with EB is taking Repelling Blast and knocking things back into your Wall of Fire/Guardian of Faith/Sickening Radiance.

[Misterwhisper]

Having played a Celestial Warlock, the real advantage with EB is taking Repelling Blast and knocking things back into your Wall of Fire/Guardian of Faith/Sickening Radiance.

Keeping them pinned in a hunger of hadar is also great from level like 5 to 8.

It is really stupid that such a good spell, that is exclusive to a class that must upcast, doesn’t scale.

[Amechra]

Obviously there are differences in the application of Sacred Flame vs Eldritch Blast, with SF being DEX save and EB being RSA.

If you do go with Tome then Fire Bolt is the direct counterpart to EB, and Radiant Soul is effectively the same as Agonizing Blast for it (as well as affecting lots of other spells).

Are you allowed the UA class options? There's lots of good Tome and Chain invocations, as well as Pact Of The Talisman which lends itself rather well to Celestial in terms of theme.

I'm currently DMing, so most of this is academic, I'm afraid. The Class Features UA does add a lot of encouragement to go Tome (Seriously, Eldritch Mind and Gift of the Protectors are both fantastic), since neither of the new Chain Invocations directly synergize with your Patron features, and the single new Blade invocation is... OK, I guess?

Talisman Warlock (Talislocks?) are kind of interesting, but I'm unsure of how well the Pact Boon actually works with Celestial. The base effect turns you into a pseudo-skill monkey, then all of the invocations are defensive. The theme is pretty good, but I'd have to see it in play.

[Quietus]

There's a lot more you can do than just Eldritch Blast and Eldritch Blast Invocations. You get Flaming Sphere and Wall of Fire, both enhanced by Radiant Soul. Do you need much more damage than that?

For what it's worth, Radiant Soul explicitly enhances one damage roll, against one creature. Doesn't help all that much on continual effects like Flaming Sphere and Wall of Fire. Not that they aren't good options, just not as much of a difference as they could be.

[KorvinStarmast]

For what it's worth, Radiant Soul explicitly enhances one damage roll, against one creature. Doesn't help all that much on continual effects like Flaming Sphere and Wall of Fire. Not that they aren't good options, just not as much of a difference as they could be. Each Turn.

[Trustypeaches]

Each Turn.
Not quite.

Starting at 6th level, your link to the Celestial allows you to serve as a conduit for radiant energy. You have resistance to radiant damage, and when you cast a spell that deals radiant or fire damage, you add your Charisma modifier to one radiant or fire damage roll of that spell against one of its targets.
You benefit once per spell, not once per turn.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not quite.

You benefit once per spell, not once per turn.
Nope, unless you do not roll each round that the fire wall is up. Each time you roll, the bonus damage is added.

[Trustypeaches]

Nope, unless you do not roll each round that the fire wall is up. Each time you roll, the bonus damage is added.
The ability says it only adds charisma to ONE roll against ONE target for each spell.


when you cast a spell that deals radiant or fire damage, you add your Charisma modifier to one radiant or fire damage roll of that spell against one of its targets.

You use a different roll for each round of Fire Wall, but the feature will only benefit one of them. It does not apply every time you roll damage. Otherwise, the feature would be worded "When you roll damage for a spell that deals radiant or fire damage, add your Charisma modifier to a radiant or fire damage roll of that spell against one of its targets".

-

On topic, Gift of the Ever Living Ones from Pact of the Chain turns Healing Light into an insane self-sustain tool. It's like Lay on Hands that you can use on yourself as a bonus action, and even a 2nd level cure wounds becomes pretty juicy healing (16 + CHA) pts of damage.

One combo that I've recently had great success with is the Imp familiar and Inspiring Leader. Inspiring Leader's temp hp grants the Imp pseudo-scaling health, which can make it surprisingly sturdy when combined with it's at-will invisibility, resistances to physical damage, immunity to poison and fire, and advantage on magic saving throws. At level 3 (with variant human) your familiar can have 16 hp, and take 32 pts of physical damage before dying, which is likely more punishment than even the warlock can sustain. Remember that the Imp's invisibility ONLY breaks if they attack or cast a spell, and not if they perform the Help Action, use an Item, etc.

This lets you play a LOT more aggressively with the imp in combat than you can with a normal familiar, using it to deliver potions, interact with the environment, perform the help action to give you advantage on eldritch blast, etc. Here are just some of the thing I've done with my familiar in the last month:

Perform the Help action to give my Eldritch Blast advantage on the attack roll.
Perform the Help action to give the rogue advantage on their single attack roll for Sneak Attack
When an enemy was in melee range of me, have the Imp enter and exit the enemy's attack range to provoke an attack of opportunity (likely rolled at disadvantage). Absorbing it's reaction can allow the warlock, or another ally, to step away from the creature safely.
Spread ball bearings across a choke point on the other side of the map, staunching the flow of enemy reinforcements
Delivered a healing potion to a downed ally when I was out of spell slots and healing light
Picked up dropped weapons and arcane focuses that our battlemaster Fighter had disarmed from the enemy

Chain familiars provide tons of combat options on top of their excellent utility as scouts, and that's without even going into the potential for them to attune to magical items.

Alternatively, if you want to be a more well-rounded combatant, you can go Pact of the Tome and grab Shillelagh and Green Flame Blade. These two spells, along with the Celestial Warlock's level 6 feature to add Charisma to Fire damage, will turn your Warlock into a solid, SAD, frontline gish (as long as you use a feat or multiclass to get Medium Armor and Shields).

[Man_Over_Game]

Nope, unless you do not roll each round that the fire wall is up. Each time you roll, the bonus damage is added.

I like that version more, but the consensus is that it only applies once, and only when the spell is cast:

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/101077

Although that question/answer is based on Elemental Affinity, from the Draconic Sorcerer, it's still the same situation:

"when you cast a spell that deals [the relevant damage type], add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll."

[Trustypeaches]

I like that version more, but the consensus is that it only applies once, and only when the spell is cast:

It would make Celestial Warlocks the best blasters of the warlock subclasses, certainly.

At level 6 you could cast Flaming Sphere then bonus action ram it for (3d6 + CHA) * 2, dealing more damage than fireball in a smaller radius. On subsequent turns it'd basically be a stronger spiritual weapon, and it would continue to scale with higher levels. Allowing it to affect repeated rolls would also be a large buff to Sickening Radiance, Wall of Light, and Crown of Stars, which are all pretty strong spells already. Finally, if it affected both damage rolls of Green Flame Blade, a Celestial tomelock with Shillelagh would likely outdamage Bladelocks as well.

I don't think it'd be broken or anything, compared to other classes though.

[JackPhoenix]

When an enemy was in melee range of me, have the Imp enter and exit the enemy's attack range to provoke an attack of opportunity (likely rolled at disadvantage). Absorbing it's reaction can allow the warlock, or another ally, to step away from the creature safely.

Not if it's invisible. Creatures you can't see don't provoke OA, and even then, the enemy isn't forced to take the OA when it's provoked. They can ignore the imp and wait for more important targets to move.

Another nice trick (which the warlock can't do on its own, unfortunately) is to use Dragon's Breath. Using the breath is neither attack nor casting a spell, so it does not break invisibility.

[Trustypeaches]

Not if it's invisible. Creatures you can't see don't provoke OA, and even then, the enemy isn't forced to take the OA when it's provoked. They can ignore the imp and wait for more important targets to move.

Another nice trick (which the warlock can't do on its own, unfortunately) is to use Dragon's Breath. Using the breath is neither attack nor casting a spell, so it does not break invisibility.
That's kind of both good and bad.

Good in that your Imp has innate Flyby to avoid opportunity attacks from creatures without blindsight or truesight. Bad in that they can't absorb enemy reactions without dropping invisibility.

Regardless, Inspiring Leader on the Imp has made it a really impressively formidable combat tool, and I imagine it'll stay useful even into Tier 3 and 4.

[Man_Over_Game]

It would make Celestial Warlocks the best blasters of the warlock subclasses, certainly.

At level 6 you could cast Flaming Sphere then bonus action ram it for (3d6 + CHA) * 2, dealing more damage than fireball in a smaller radius. On subsequent turns it'd basically be a stronger spiritual weapon, and it would continue to scale with higher levels. Allowing it to affect repeated rolls would also be a large buff to Sickening Radiance, Wall of Light, and Crown of Stars, which are all pretty strong spells already. Finally, if it affected both damage rolls of Green Flame Blade, a Celestial tomelock with Shillelagh would likely outdamage Bladelocks as well.

I don't think it'd be broken or anything, compared to other classes though.

I think that making it "One damage die roll, once per turn" would be perfect. So most AoEs only deals extra damage to a single creature, unless enemies are stupid enough to end their turns in the area. The only thing I could see it improving are:


Spells that have a reusable effect (Flaming Sphere)
Spells that have a ground-debilitating effect (Wall of Fire)


Those spells cost Concentration, as do most of the good Warlock spells, and Warlocks don't get any benefits towards Concentration without investing into feats. Many of those spells (Flaming Sphere, Crown of Stars) consume your Bonus Action, which directly competes with your primary feature.

Mostly, though I'd just be happy to see Warlocks have a comfortable option for damage builds that don't involve spamming Hex.