Who's The Friendliest Deity in D&D 3.5?

[Bartmanhomer]

Who's the friendliest deity in D&D 3.5? You know a friendly deity who welcome all walks of life and very easy to get along with. :smile:

[OrbanSirgen]

I would say Fharlangn... The guy is literally a wanderer, so it's logical for him to get along with all he meets...

[Bartmanhomer]

I would say Fharlangn... The guy is literally a wanderer, so it's logical for him to get along with all he meets...

Well, he's True Neutral. So I guess he fits the bill. :smile:

[Saintheart]

Chauntea, goddess of the Earth. She literally lets people walk all over her. :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week. Try the veal!

[Maat Mons]

Well, a neutral deity won't accept clerics who are LG, CG, LE, or CE, since those are all two steps away. So that's 4/9ths of the population excluded from the inner circle. Doesn't sounds very welcoming to me.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd think the laughing rogue and his sister, Olidamara and Lashtai, are probably pretty easy to get along with, long as you're not too uptight.

Olidamara chills in his mead hall on Ysgard when he's not being the deific equivalent of your party rogue just partying and testing his divine skill at legerdemain.

Lashtai is a goddess of physical pleasure, including of the adult variety, that just wants everyone to have a good time.

[RedMage125]

I'd think the laughing rogue and his sister, Olidamara and Lashtai, are probably pretty easy to get along with, long as you're not too uptight.

Olidamara chills in his mead hall on Ysgard when he's not being the deific equivalent of your party rogue just partying and testing his divine skill at legerdemain.

Lashtai is a goddess of physical pleasure, including of the adult variety, that just wants everyone to have a good time.

In the vein of Lashtai, then, we must also consider Forgotten Realms' goddess Sharess.

Originally Bast of the Mulhorand pantheon, she absorbed another deity and became Sharess. She's the goddess of hedonism (to include the adult variety), festhalls, and cats. So sex, booze, parties, and lolcats.

Tymora deserves consideration as well. One of her titles is "the smiling goddess". They say when Tyche was split into two goddesses, Beshaba got all the looks and Tymora got all the love. I'd say "friendliness" is one of Tymora's most salient personality traits.

[Biggus]

Who's the friendliest deity in D&D 3.5? You know a friendly deity who welcome all walks of life and very easy to get along with. :smile:

Eilistraee has to be a good contender:

"Though focused on the drow, Eilistraee accepted folk of all races who danced along her path, who delighted in life and in the free-form expression of it in all its forms. She fought so that all races could live peacefully together, helping and accepting each other despite their differences"

"Eilistraee was a generally melancholic goddess...but she still tried her best to spread joy, create and nurture beauty, show kindness, and make life flourish"

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eilistraee


Well, a neutral deity won't accept clerics who are LG, CG, LE, or CE, since those are all two steps away. So that's 4/9ths of the population excluded from the inner circle. Doesn't sounds very welcoming to me.

True of some neutral deities but not all. Io/ Asgorath accepts Clerics of all alignments, for example. Not sure how friendly he is though...

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... I would have to say Cas. He will accept anyone if their thirst for revenge is great enough.

[Telonius]

Well, a neutral deity won't accept clerics who are LG, CG, LE, or CE, since those are all two steps away. So that's 4/9ths of the population excluded from the inner circle. Doesn't sounds very welcoming to me.

IIRC, doesn't Io allow clerics of all flavors? Kind of Dragon-specific, but given the number of half-dragons out there it seems like it would be more inclusive.

You could always be a Cleric of "Friendship" as a concept. Your holy symbol would probably have to be a stylized purple alicorn.

[Calthropstu]

In the vein of Lashtai, then, we must also consider Forgotten Realms' goddess Sharess.

Originally Bast of the Mulhorand pantheon, she absorbed another deity and became Sharess. She's the goddess of hedonism (to include the adult variety), festhalls, and cats. So sex, booze, parties, and lolcats.

Tymora deserves consideration as well. One of her titles is "the smiling goddess". They say when Tyche was split into two goddesses, Beshaba got all the looks and Tymora got all the love. I'd say "friendliness" is one of Tymora's most salient personality traits.

Now, more than ever, I want to make a real world religion based off of D&D deities.

[The Viscount]

Evening Glory is a N goddess of eternal love, also she's chill with undead, which is rare.

[RedMage125]

Eilistraee has to be a good contender:

"Though focused on the drow, Eilistraee accepted folk of all races who danced along her path, who delighted in life and in the free-form expression of it in all its forms. She fought so that all races could live peacefully together, helping and accepting each other despite their differences"

"Eilistraee was a generally melancholic goddess...but she still tried her best to spread joy, create and nurture beauty, show kindness, and make life flourish"

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eilistraee


I must vehemently disagree that Eilistraee is a friendly deity. The friendliest deity in the drow pantheon, perhaps. But that's a terrible yardstick to measure friendliness by, given that the rest are either narcissistic sociopaths (Lolth, Vhaeraun, Selvetarm), or [borderline] insane nihilists (Kiaransalee, Ghaundaur).

Eilistraee, despite being all about trying to redeem the drow, is paranoid as hell (with good reason, certainly). She's also almost as sexist as her mother (her clergy is exclusively female), and males are still second-class citizens in Eilitraean enclaves (treated better than under Lolth worshippers, but still second-class).

She killed her brother, encouraged her priestess to kill her nephew (whom she clearly gave up on saving), and gambled the fate of ALL the drow she had EVER redeemed to go after her mother.

She's not friendly.

[RatElemental]

Neutral Good gods are probably the best place to begin such a search, as NG is the alignment most in line with benevolence as a concept.

Amusingly, if what you're after is a god you'd like to have a beer with, Pathfinder has one who accidentally ascended to godhood while on a drunken bet, and whom doesn't even remember how he did it. He's Chaotic Good, and the god of booze, bravery and freedom.

[Luccan]

I must vehemently disagree that Eilistraee is a friendly deity. The friendliest deity in the drow pantheon, perhaps. But that's a terrible yardstick to measure friendliness by, given that the rest are either narcissistic sociopaths (Lolth, Vhaeraun, Selvetarm), or [borderline] insane nihilists (Kiaransalee, Ghaundaur).

Eilistraee, despite being all about trying to redeem the drow, is paranoid as hell (with good reason, certainly). She's also almost as sexist as her mother (her clergy is exclusively female), and males are still second-class citizens in Eilitraean enclaves (treated better than under Lolth worshippers, but still second-class).

She killed her brother, encouraged her priestess to kill her nephew (whom she clearly gave up on saving), and gambled the fate of ALL the drow she had EVER redeemed to go after her mother.

She's not friendly.

Clearly she takes after her dad.

I will have to third Olidmarra, but there is the general "probably doesn't give a damn what you do or what happens to you" that goes along with being the god of the less annoying CNs. That's not necessarily friendly, just a non-hostile ambivalence. OTOH, if we're measuring by range of acceptance, he probably is one of the most accepting of different folks and walks of life.

Most deities have some standards or megalomania that prevents them from being considered friendly from the perspective of "you can do whatever you want".

[Bartmanhomer]

Neutral Good gods are probably the best place to begin such a search, as NG is the alignment most in line with benevolence as a concept.

Amusingly, if what you're after is a god you'd like to have a beer with, Pathfinder has one who accidentally ascended to godhood while on a drunken bet, and whom doesn't even remember how he did it. He's Chaotic Good, and the god of booze, bravery and freedom.

I know which Chaotic Good deity you're talking about. His name is Cayden Cailean. :smile:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

god of boozeHe espouses poison, which the BoVD and BoED explicitly deride as evil?

Yeah, no thank you.

How about Tamara (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tamara)?


Tamara (pronounced: /təˈmɑːrə/ tuh-MAH-ruh[3]) was the neutral good dragon goddess of life, light, mercy, and forgiveness.[1] She was the consort of Lendys,[2] and was commonly worshiped alongside him and Bahamut, who in some traditions was considered to be their son.[4]

[Pugwampy]

Luru the unicorn queen .

Everyone is easy going and life is just one big party .

[hamishspence]

He espouses poison, which the BoVD and BoED explicitly deride as evil?

Yeah, no thank you.

Having alcohol poisoning only happens (according to Arms & Equipment Guide) when you reduce both Wis and Dex to 0.

And Defenders of the Faith says paladins don't need to be tea-drinking sticks-in-the-mud, but they shouldn't drink to excess and impair their judgement.

So I'd say that drinking a little booze does not count as an evil "self-poisoning" act and will not cause a Paladin to fall.

[Ason]

As two others have said, if Pathfinder is in-play, then it's Cayden Cailean (https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Cayden_Cailean). That god is literally an ordinary chaotic good adventurer who got drunk one night and woke up the next day as a deity.

In Forgotten Realms, I'm actually going to go out on a limb here and say Kelemvor (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kelemvor). Some may point to the wall of the faithless (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wall_of_the_Faithless) that Kelemvor oversees as an example of him being rather unfriendly, and you would be partly right. But if you read his lore, Kelemvor originally did away with the wall. Instead, if you were good but faithless/false, you got sent to the nicer parts of the City of Death, whereas evil people got sent to the more hellish areas. Kelemvor only changed the rules back to having the wall of the faithless when its removal sent the afterlife into disarray and all the other gods got pissed at him. So because the guy was willing to rewrite the afterlife rules and risk the consequences (even though he had to change them back later), I'm giving it to Kelemvor for at least trying to make life better for the false and faithless of Faerun. He failed and now has to oversee the horrible wall, sure, but him at least trying puts Kelemvor far ahead of all the other Forgotten Realms deities, who never even try to undo that eternal torment for nonbelievers.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Having alcohol poisoning only happens (according to Arms & Equipment Guide) when you reduce both Wis and Dex to 0.

And Defenders of the Faith says paladins don't need to be tea-drinking sticks-in-the-mud, but they shouldn't drink to excess and impair their judgement.

So I'd say that drinking a little booze does not count as an evil "self-poisoning" act and will not cause a Paladin to fall.As I recall, resistance against poison works against all effects of alcohol, because, by definition, alcohol is poison.

And I don't think "just a little evil" is something paladins can use to justify their actions.

[hamishspence]

The "no poison" thing its specifically about its use as a weapon for neutralising enemies - and it's considered evil on the grounds that it causes unnecessary and excessive suffering (according to BoED).

A DM who made a paladin fall for drinking one glass of wine or beer, would be castigated, rightly, by the players.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The "no poison" thing its specifically about its use as a weapon for neutralising enemies - and it's considered evil on the grounds that it causes unnecessary and excessive suffering (according to BoED).

A DM who made a paladin fall for drinking one glass of wine or beer, would be castigated, rightly, by the players.Have you ever experienced a hangover?

That's the very definition of "excessive suffering."

[hamishspence]

And the rules in Arms & Equipment guide specifically state that the hangover itself is not cured by anti-poison effects.

[Quertus]

True of some neutral deities but not all. Io/ Asgorath accepts Clerics of all alignments, for example. Not sure how friendly he is though...


IIRC, doesn't Io allow clerics of all flavors? Kind of Dragon-specific, but given the number of half-dragons out there it seems like it would be more inclusive.

Um… I take it there's another Io beyond "overlord of Faerun"? 'Cause he's kinda a ****.


You could always be a Cleric of "Friendship" as a concept. Your holy symbol would probably have to be a stylized purple alicorn.

Suggested spheres of influence?


Now, more than ever, I want to make a real world religion based off of D&D deities.

Don't break forum rules (which this wouldn't, because it's not currently a real-world religion, right?), but what would that entail?


Evening Glory is a N goddess of eternal love, also she's chill with undead, which is rare.

Ooh, I had completely forgotten about our life-impared cousins. Sounds like a strong contender.

[ShurikVch]

Meriadar (https://annex.fandom.com/wiki/Meriadar)?
Cyrrollalee (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Cyrrollalee)?

[hamishspence]

Um… I take it there's another Io beyond "overlord of Faerun"?

That's Ao. Io is the dragon chief deity.


Gond, god of crafts, in Faerun, is one of the few N deities who breaks the one step rule and allows clerics of all alignments. Not particularly personable or friendly though.

[Telonius]

Suggested spheres of influence?


Kindness, Loyalty, Honesty, Laughter, Generosity, and Magic.

(I'll see myself out). :smallbiggrin:

[icefractal]

As I recall, resistance against poison works against all effects of alcohol, because, by definition, alcohol is poison.

And I don't think "just a little evil" is something paladins can use to justify their actions.
But if you consider the BoVD/BoED kinda dumb and ignore the parts of their alignment definitions that don't make sense - as in all campaigns I've seen - then it's not a problem. :smalltongue:

Poison = non-good, or even = non-lawful, has always been on shaky ground (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm).

[Bartmanhomer]

Ok, what does poison have have to do with this topic? :annoyed:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ok, what does poison have have to do with this topic? :annoyed:Good deities who encourage evil acts.

[hamishspence]

IMO Alcohol does not count as poison in small doses, in the context of D&D and the paladin's code.

It's clear from Arms & Equipment Guide that it functions in a similar but not identical way.


No "make a Fort save, then another one 1 minute later" for example.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

IMO Alcohol does not count as poison in small doses, in the context of D&D and the paladin's code.Ahem. (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/mar/07/safe-level-alcohol-consumption) :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

Not applicable to D&D.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not applicable to D&D.I dunno. Alcohol is most definitely considered poisonous, and according to the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison), simply consuming poison is enough to affect you with it, as it doesn't mention anything about dosage. You take a drink, you've poisoned yourself.


When a character takes damage from an attack with a poisoned weapon, touches an item smeared with contact poison, consumes poisoned food or drink, or is otherwise poisoned, he must make a Fortitude saving throw. If he fails, he takes the poison’s initial damage (usually ability damage). Even if he succeeds, he typically faces more damage 1 minute later, which he can also avoid with a successful Fortitude saving throw.

[Bartmanhomer]

Alcohol is not poison. Not literally of course.

[hamishspence]

The rules for intoxication, as described in Arms & Equipment Guide, function slightly differently to the rules for poisoning.

As portrayed in D&D fiction, there are paladins who drink alcohol - not to excess, and don't fall. Dwarves especially.



So the "one drink and paladin falls" idea is IMO over-extrapolation - and not standard operating procedure in D&D.


If you want it that way in your games, fine. But it's not standard, RAW, or anything like that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Alcohol is not poison. Not literally of course.The Arms & Equipment Guide disagrees.

For each drink, it's a Fort save with a DC per kind of alcohol (10-15). Multiple drinks an hour get a progressive -1/-2/-4 penalty. Failures take 1d2 temporary DEX and WIS damage. If either go to 0 you're out of the action; if both go to 0 you have to make another Fort save or start taking 1 point of temp CON damage per 10 minutes.

Sounds pretty toxic to me.

[Thurbane]

The Arms & Equipment Guide disagrees.

For each drink, it's a Fort save with a DC per kind of alcohol (10-15). Multiple drinks an hour get a progressive -1/-2/-4 penalty. Failures take 1d2 temporary DEX and WIS damage. If either go to 0 you're out of the action; if both go to 0 you have to make another Fort save or start taking 1 point of temp CON damage per 10 minutes.

Sounds pretty toxic to me.

I'm pretty sure there's an FR book that also calls out alcohol as poison...source escapes me right now.

This is what I was thinking of:


OK...a lot of searching, but I do have some citation that alcohol is, in fact, considered a poison in D&D 3.5:


Drugs and Sanity
Drugs in the D&D game follow many of the same rules as poisons, allowing the imbiber saving throws to resist their initial and secondary effects. Delay poison, neutralize poison, and similar effects negate or end a drug’s effects, but they do not restore hit points, ability damage, or other damage caused by the substance.
A creature that willingly takes a drug automatically fails both saving throws. It is not possible to intentionally fail the initial save but attempt to save against the secondary effect, or vice versa. Save DCs are provided for situations in which a character is unwillingly drugged.

OK, I'll admit, that one's not very solid, but here's one that is almost airtight (IMHO):


Like alcoholic drinks, jhuild is technically a poison, and a character who drinks it must succeed on a Fortitude saving throw (DC 12) to avoid its effect; those who desire it may voluntarily fail this saving throw.

[hamishspence]

I'm pretty sure dwarven paladins don't fall for passing a tankard to a fellow dwarf.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm pretty sure dwarven paladins don't fall for passing a tankard to a fellow dwarf.Then chalk it up to RAW dysphoria and houserule it.

[Kish]

This entire tangent doesn't even matter. The question in the thread title isn't "which deity is the most unambiguously stick-up-their-ass follows-all-the-BoED-rules good?" Cayden Cailean's a pretty strong candidate for the answer to the thread title.

That said, I think some more clarification of the intended definition of "friendly" is required here. A good deity might be into encouraging evil to reform rather than slaughtering it out of hand, but no good deity is going to be inclined to treat evil as a Valid Lifestyle Choice. Are you looking for a deity who's actively positive toward nearly everyone--and in some cases that "positive" means "try to get them to change their ways, but if they refuse, don't let them hurt other people"? Saerenrae would probably be my nomination if so. Or one who doesn't have to encourage anyone to change because they don't care about morality? Fharlanghn is probably the best choice there; Pharasma has plenty of indifference but is friendly to no one and actively hostile to the undead. Alternatively, there's always Asmodeus; as long as he has something to gain by being friendly to you, he prides himself on being able to work on a short-term basis with even deities who despise everything he stands for. Of course, if he can enslave you, he will, and his "friendliness" is never more than skin deep.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This entire tangent doesn't even matter. The question in the thread title isn't "which deity is the most unambiguously stick-up-their-ass follows-all-the-BoED-rules good?" Cayden Cailean's a pretty strong candidate for the answer to the thread title.To be fair, I treat anyone trying to poison me as "someone to put down, if possible" not "the friendliest," so it's a valid observation.

[Kish]

No. It's not. You hijacked the thread for a page of RAW quibbling. Feel free to keep doing so, but I'm just putting you on ignore now, for my part.

[hamishspence]

For a good example of how "even by BOED rules, drinking alcohol is not supposed to be an evil act" - there's the Exalted feat. Vow of Abstinence.

Like with Vow of Chastity, you are abstaining from something positive (alcohol, coffee, etc. in this case) in the hope that it will bring spiritual benefits.

If it were an evil act, the feat would have no point.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For a good example of how "even by BOED rules, drinking alcohol is not supposed to be an evil act" - there's the Exalted feat. Vow of Abstinence.

Like with Vow of Chastity, you are abstaining from something positive (alcohol, coffee, etc. in this case) in the hope that it will bring spiritual benefits.

If it were an evil act, the feat would have no point.And yet, alcohol is still poison, just like ravages are still poison. Just because people somehow delude themselves into thinking it's a "good" thing doesn't mean they're at all correct.

Vow of Abstinence also eschews drugs, which are also marked as evil. Oh, and would you look at that -- alcohol is an addictive drug as well.

[hamishspence]

This is what I was thinking of:





As was pointed out in that thread:


Yup. Alcohol is handled like a poison, mechanically.

And, in real life, that's what it is as well. But you have to remember that practically everything is a poison in real life, too. Usually beneficial substances like painkillers, substances like salt or vitamins, and even water can poison you.

Basic toxicology: The dose makes the poison. That is, just about everything in the world, if you are exposed to enough of it, can kill you. For extremely toxic substances like nerve agents, that might be a drop smaller than the head of a pin. For less toxic substances, like caffeine, that could be the equivalent of a bottle of No-Doz or fifty cups of coffee. For substances with very low toxicity, like water, it could mean so much that it's difficult to physically fit into your stomach, taken over a long amount of time, or taken intravenously. (But people have still died of drinking too much water.)

Alcohol is a moderately poisonous substance; and, like any poison, it creates a situation in which the body has to re-balance itself in order to reach homeostasis again. The human body basically likes to be in a certain state, and there are lots of mechanisms in place to get the body back to that state. Like, for example, if you were to drink too much water, your kidneys would let more water leave the bloodstream and you would find yourself peeing every half hour or so. With alcohol, it's similar--your body re-balances itself both by metabolizing and expelling the alcohol and by coping with the toxin while it's there. If you were to actually get hooked on it, your body would get used to the alcohol being there and change things around so as to function better with the alcohol present--though of course when you stop drinking, if you are addicted, your body has to get used to not having alcohol present anymore, and that causes withdrawal symptoms.

We live in a world where everything is, to some degree, toxic. Even organic fruits and vegetables generate natural pesticides to keep bugs away, and we eat these every time we munch on a salad. But thankfully, our bodies are also designed to readjust themselves every time we come in contact with something that sets them off-balance.

The only time you need to worry is when something sets the body so far off balance, either short-term or long-term, that it's difficult or impossible to recover. Depending on the substance, that could mean a drop of sarin, a glass of Everclear, or two gallons of salt water. But it's all poison, if the dose is right.


everything's poisonous if you take enough of it. Salt is much more dangerous than alcohol, by volume - eat a pint of pure salt and your kidneys will shut down and you will die.

But nobody makes a paladin fall for sprinkling a little salt on their dinner.

Drink a pint of small beer in a medieval setting, because the water is too dangerous, and you are acting normally, not "committing self-poisoning".



Vow of Abstinence also eschews drugs, which are also marked as evil.

BoED makes it clear that Execution is not inherently evil, despite there being detailed rules for executions in BoVD. Similar principles apply. Having detailed rules for something in BoVD, does not make it inherently evil.



This entire tangent doesn't even matter. The question in the thread title isn't "which deity is the most unambiguously stick-up-their-ass follows-all-the-BoED-rules good?" Cayden Cailean's a pretty strong candidate for the answer to the thread title.

Going back to the OP's topic - I'd agree that he's a friendly deity. Finder Wyvernspur (CN) was also pretty friendly in the novels, and as a recently ascended deity, pretty humble as well.

[Irennan]

I must vehemently disagree that Eilistraee is a friendly deity. The friendliest deity in the drow pantheon, perhaps. But that's a terrible yardstick to measure friendliness by, given that the rest are either narcissistic sociopaths (Lolth, Vhaeraun, Selvetarm), or [borderline] insane nihilists (Kiaransalee, Ghaundaur).

Eilistraee, despite being all about trying to redeem the drow, is paranoid as hell (with good reason, certainly). She's also almost as sexist as her mother (her clergy is exclusively female), and males are still second-class citizens in Eilitraean enclaves (treated better than under Lolth worshippers, but still second-class).

She killed her brother, encouraged her priestess to kill her nephew (whom she clearly gave up on saving), and gambled the fate of ALL the drow she had EVER redeemed to go after her mother.

She's not friendly.

That's not true, but I can see why someone would say that, if they met Eilistraee through Smedman's/Athans' stuff. Eilistraee is basically the poster girl of friendliness. Eilistraee herself is not paranoid/jumpy (though some of her followers can certainly be), nor violent, nor misandrist at all.

That's just Smedman's/Athans (now retconned) portrayal of Eilistraee, which goes against core aspects of her character and of what she stands for, decades of lore, and previous representations (like Elaine Cunningham's Starlights and Shadows--very good represtantion--and even Rich Baker's Condemnation, part of the same series where the misportrayal of Eilistraee by Smedman/Athans begins). The misandrism, militarism, strict hierarchy, lack of compassion, all of that, is just Smedman's/Athans headcanon, which essentially snipes specific lines of lore about Eilistraee just to turn them upside down in the most offputting way possible. Smedman's/Athans' work is notoriously full of staggering mistakes in regards to the portrayal of Eilistraee (like that part when Ryld feels that "males don't have a place among the Eilistraeens" or males being second class citizens, see my explanation below--utterly ridiculous and untrue) and is no longer valid.

That series of books was written to make Drizzt "moar speshul" for 4e, btw, as Perkins himself stated that making Drizzt the only real good drow was one of the main reasons for the changes that they made to the drow pantheon at the end of 3.5e, alongside culling the number of deities (so, warping Eilistraee into unrecognizability before removing her alongside the rest of the drow gods for 4e--though that was reverted in 5e). Currently, all of this has been retconned/ignored, and it's basically apocrypha.

----------------------------

In any case, even before the retcon, in the series that you mention, things didn't actually go like you're suggesting. Eilistraee:

1)didn't gamble anything except putting herself on the line (not her followers), and not to get rid of Lolth, but--as said in the very books you're referring to--to free the drow from oppression and misery onece and for all (so, Smedman got this right, at least: it was actually Eilistraee taking risks for the sake of all drow, which is part of her concept ever since her introduction in FR). Besides, a deity can't gamble their followers, because they are the ones to choose whom to follow. This is not how divinity works in FR, nor it ever has. On top of all this, the game you're referring to was a metphor, as evinced by scenes that wouldn't make sense otherwise, like Selvetarm dying in the "real Toril" and then still being alive at the table, or by the fact that the whole series of novels wouldn't make sense if the game was real, because the actions of mortal swould be devoid of any significance or impact.

2)didn't just go to kill Vhaeraun; he attempted to murder her (stealing the souls of her people to enable this attempt on top of the attempt itself), she retaliated. Even then, Ed Greenwood, Eilistraee's creator, explained that Eilistraee spared him, but borrowed his portfolio for a while, while trapping his sentience in the Weave as part of a plan with Mystra (which made sure that the twins survived, though serverely weakened, before recovering in the Second Sundering. This is part of the explanation Ed gave to justify their return, though WotC outright ignored/retconned what had happened before anyway).

3)didn't encourage the assassination of Selvetarm (as a side note, she was the only one to care after him after he was abandoned, and grew very cloe to him, until Lolth tricked him into killing some demon. After that, all it came before all of sudden stopped having any relevance whatsoever, and he magically became a bloodthirsty berserker and Lolth's "obedient but hateful" personal slave... because reasons). In that series, Selvetarm actively tried to exterminate Eilistraee's people, working for Lolth; her priestesses attacked in retaliation.

---------------------------------------------------

Now, with that said, in the *actual* lore, Eilistraee has a very positive attitude. She's meant to be a nurturing mother goddess to the drow (reaching to all of them, btw), who chose to give up on the luxury, comfort and power she could have had, just to be one of them and to be by their side in the times of need. She made this choice despite knowing (and having foreseen) the hardships and pain that were awaiting her on that path, and despite being scared of what she was going to get herself into. Currently, Eilistraee still acts as a motherly deity, empowering the drow to find their own path in life, being there for them (aiding them in practical ways and offering confort) in the times of need during their journey to claim back their future and rightful home, while--at the same time--working to never force a choice on them. She strives to let them rediscover the beauty of life they were denied, the joy of sisterhood/brotherhood, of having someone who cares for them. She makes them understand that, unlike Lolth leads them to believe, they do have value as individuals (she is close to the point of being known to help her followers by scaring aggressors, helping the find food, helping those lost to find a safe path to home, personally comfroting, etc... She also listens to the silent messages that *all* of her followers send her through ther Evensong--which Smedman got completely wrong, as expected, despite it being nearly impossible to get wrong--in which they let out all the emotions and experiences for the day, to reinforce the idea that they matter for what they are. There's also that ritual in which she personally accompanies her followers who die of old age in the afterlife).
Though for this following pargraph (and only for it) I'm adding my interpretation, you could even say that having Eilistraee shared the fate of her people, she knows that the drow have been broken by abuse, and still sees them for the part of them that was silenced by cruelty and hatred. She speaks to that part and tries to let it awaken through the sheer joy of existence and the love that she can still find and give. The same things that the drow were denied, but that many of them secretly long for.

Anyway, all she does with drow females, she does with the males; the fact that her society is generally matriarchal doesn't mean that males are treated like crap (in fact, the contrary is *explicitly* stated in the lore: i.e. that males are valued and treated with equality, see SKR's supplement about drow social relationships, for example, and males take part in all rituals--except the ones reserved to the clergy. But not because they're males, because they tend to not belong to the clergy. On this, which you describe as sexist, I'll return later). The priestesses are meant ot be nurturers, teachers, protectressess--an extension of Eilistraee's own motherhood, helping ALL drow thrive and find their own path on the surface world, not dictators. And while there can always be paranoid/jumpy/sexist priestesses, mostly Lolthite converts scarred by their previous life (as expected), the majority acts like I described (even if EVERY former Lolthite acted like that, given that Eilistraee's is an established society, and most of its members were born into it, they'd still be a minority). I like that Eilistraee's society is designed as a good, nurturing matriarchy, because it's a much needed foil to "the only relevant matriarchy in D&D is a bunch of misandrist dominatrices who do nothing but backstabbing each other and indulging in pettiness while everythinbg rots". Even then, the faith of Eilistraee is described in the 3e F&P as having a very loose hierarchy (once again, Smedman gets this super wrong), so this is not as rigid as you'd think.

Eilistraee is big on compassion and mercy too--it's in her whole character; second and third chances are a huge part of her M.O., obviously, because redemption (and please, don't give me the argument of "repay violence with swift violence"; that means defending yourself and stopping evil, not randomly murdering those that you perceive as evil. Same for the so-called Hunts; Eilistraeens don't go around trying to slay random lycanthropes--Eilistraeens are known to even befriend non-evil lycnathropes, btw--or whatever, like Smedman tries to make you believe. In the lore, such ritual hunts against monsters happen either when there's a known threat, or when Eilistraee warns them of imminent dangers and they can respond to it through these expeditions).

Finally, Eilistraee stands for nurture and creation of beauty and arts, for acceptance and harmony among all people, for freedom of expression. She does her best to spread joy and to teach her people to do the same, depsite centuries of grief and loss, despite having lost so much and having always had to fight to crawl her way into relevance and rebuild after every loss. Also, her followers have a big ritual in which they go around, traveling to human, elven (etc...) settlements, bringing help, food, healing, and their arts, in order to build friendships with other races. Her followers also gain places for themselves in non-drow community by offering help like food, clothing, and cures for the poor, bringing their art, and generally being a positive presence (see Raven's Bluff, Elventree, now Waterdeep, etc...) They are know to fight slavery and offer shelter to slaves (and strangers who need it) asking no more than some small help for their cause--if anything--in return. Priestesses are even known to always carry food on themselves to share with hungry strangers met on the way, and it's part of their duty to help and comfort the suffering met on the way. That's all VERY friendly and compassionate; Eilistraee herself is like that.

Just because Smedman and Athans warped her into unrecognizability and crapped all over her character and lore, it doesn't mean she's actually like that. Especially now that Smedman's and Athan's stuff is no longer canon and has been removed from FR (righfully, because it was headcanon, contradicting the actual lore in so many ways it's not even funny). They just took a character that they *didn't create* and trashed her.

Then again, in the fiction, authors almost never show this side--the defining side--of Eilistraee and her followers; it only briefly appears in EC's novels, that I recall, because D&D fiction, especially when characters like drow or orcs are involved, tends to revolve around fighting, with the rest acting as fluff at best.

Now, re: male clergy, currently Eilistraee has male clerics as well as female clerics, with no difference whatsoever. The reason why Eilistraee couldn't have male priests at first is, according to Ed Greenwood, that her nature is tied, among the other things, to female fertility. She's intended to be a nurturing mother to the drow, empowering them to find their own path, and helping them thrive in a hostile world that was once their home. Her clerics are meant to be an extension of that motherhood--teachers, protectors, and artists--which made males need to undertake the "changedance" (i.e. spend time as females) to fully "cleave" to the goddess. This is described as an active effort on Eilistraee's side to allow every individual to become a priest, and eventually (especially after having held Vhaeraun's portfolio of male drow for a while), it led to full acceptance in the clergy. Of course, you could also see this as a reflection of how the concept of motherhood evoloved with time (at first, motherhood was seen as inherently tied to the female sex, now things are different, and design choices change accordingly). That said, Eilistraee stands, among the other things, for freedom of expression, so it makes sense for her to still offer the changedance people who want it (and in either way). In fact, Eilistraee could provide a shelter not only from the cruelty, but also from a society oppressively based on gender roles (especially because as the number of male clerics rise, her society could very well steer away from being a matriarchy, since it's a matriarchy not because of ideological reasons, but because most of her clerics, the ones who usually care after the communities, are women).

Lore about Eilistraee: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eilistraee
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Church_of_Eilistraee

TL; DR Smedman's/Athans' portrayal of Eilistraee is not Eilistraee at all; it runs contrary to core aspects of her character and of what she stands for in her lore and in previous representations (Starlights and Shadows). It's some warped headcanon of those two that they threw in the Lady Penitent novels (commissioned by WotC to "prepare the drow for 4e" and, according to Perkins, also to make Drizzt the only real good drow), and that has been ignored/retconned. Eilistraee is indeed a very friendly, very compassionate deity, designed by Ed Greenwood to (as he said) take the role of a nurturing mother for all the drow (though she welcomes all who want to dance along, no matter gender/race, and has a soft spot for outcasts).

[Irennan]

Clearly she takes after her dad.


Nah, see my answer above; all that stuff was antitethical to the very core of Eilistraee's character, her M.O., all she stands for, and all the lore and representations that came before (it was basically one author's headcanon). It has also been retconned.

Eilistraee falls far from Corellon. In fact, their relationship is officially described as strained because of the divergence in this sense.

[Luccan]

Nah, see my answer above; all that stuff was antitethical to the very core of Eilistraee's character, her M.O., all she stands for, and all the lore and representations that came before (it was basically one author's headcanon). It has also been retconned.

Eilistraee falls far from Corellon. In fact, their relationship is officially described as strained because of the divergence in this sense.

I was mostly making a joke at the elf god's expense. This was actually the first time I'd heard a bad word about Eilistraee, but to be fair I didn't find out how much of a bastard Corellon was/is until 5e (didn't read much lore before then).

[Telok]

Vecna.

Always willing to listen to your woes. Frequently gives useful advice. Non-judgemental. Will keep any secrets you tell. Good for party tricks. Does not register as a powerful outsider that espouses mass murder, suffering, or genocide. Experienced true mortal life and can understand your problems.

Vecna.

Will not get drunk, puke on you, and run off with your lover.

That's a friend.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Vecna.

Always willing to listen to your woes. Frequently gives useful advice. Non-judgemental. Will keep any secrets you tell. Good for party tricks. Does not register as a powerful outsider that espouses mass murder, suffering, or genocide. Experienced true mortal life and can understand your problems.

Vecna.

Will not get drunk, puke on you, and run off with your lover.

That's a friend.Will give you a hand if you need it, although with the occasional eye-roll.

He really knows how to get a head in the world, as well.

[RedMage125]

Alcohol is not poison. Not literally of course.

Except that it literally is IRL and the way it's handled mechanically in 3.5e.

HOWEVER, Poison Use is an Evil act when one weaponizes "poisons that do ability score damage".

Nothing Evil about poisoning yourself recreationally, tho.

[lightningcat]

I have to mention Brandobaris (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Brandobaris) who is almost freinds with Mask (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mask) who was Evil (although in 5e he is listed as Chaotic Neutral, which is worse).



TL; DR Smedman's/Athans' portrayal of Eilistraee is not Eilistraee at all; it runs contrary to core aspects of her character and of what she stands for in her lore and in previous representations (Starlights and Shadows). It's some warped headcanon of those two that they threw in the Lady Penitent novels (commissioned by WotC to "prepare the drow for 4e" and, according to Perkins, also to make Drizzt the only real good drow), and that has been ignored/retconned. Eilistraee is indeed a very friendly, very compassionate deity, designed by Ed Greenwood to (as he said) take the role of a nurturing mother for all the drow (though she welcomes all who want to dance along, no matter gender/race, and has a soft spot for outcasts).

In the original Drow of the Underdark she is discribed as a "melancholy, moody drow female, a lover of beauty and peace." Which could be twisted into what she was presented as by Smedman's/Athans.
It has been a long time since I read Starlights and Shadows, but doesn't the main character end with a fairly good opinion of Eilistraee, even after telling her priesthood to sod off? Either way, Eilistraee is definately in the running for nicest deity, but many of her followers may have a few... issues.


I was mostly making a joke at the elf god's expense. This was actually the first time I'd heard a bad word about Eilistraee, but to be fair I didn't find out how much of a bastard Corellon was/is until 5e (didn't read much lore before then).

Corellon was presented as a primordial war god that became civilized in earlier editions, as seen through the lens of those who had only seen him since he became "nicer." But there are some instances where his brutality shows through. I remember (but cannot find the source, there is brief reference to the idea in the original Complete Book of Elves) that one legend of the drow becoming black skinned is because he had the light of day basically light them on fire. Even his clergy were often described as warrior-priests, even as they were known for sculpting and art.

[Luccan]

Corellon was presented as a primordial war god that became civilized in earlier editions, as seen through the lens of those who had only seen him since he became "nicer." But there are some instances where his brutality shows through. I remember (but cannot find the source, there is brief reference to the idea in the original Complete Book of Elves) that one legend of the drow becoming black skinned is because he had the light of day basically light them on fire. Even his clergy were often described as warrior-priests, even as they were known for sculpting and art.

The drow were treated badly enough, but while playing 3e I always got the impression they just kinda decided to be the way they are: yeah, Lolth encouraged them to turn on all the other elves, but they seemed willing enough to do that on their own. And then in 5e I found out that literally every elf is basically under the effects of a curse because they didn't do what daddy wanted exactly how he wanted it. Plus the pre-punishment-of-the-elves lore just makes him come off as an annoying git.

[Bartmanhomer]

Except that it literally is IRL and the way it's handled mechanically in 3.5e.

HOWEVER, Poison Use is an Evil act when one weaponizes "poisons that do ability score damage".

Nothing Evil about poisoning yourself recreationally, tho.

Ravage is a good equivalent to poison. :tongue:

[Irennan]

In the original Drow of the Underdark she is discribed as a "melancholy, moody drow female, a lover of beauty and peace." Which could be twisted into what she was presented as by Smedman's/Athans.

Doubt it; Eilistraee is described as moody because it's said (in that very book, in her entry, or at very least in Demihuman Deities) that she's prone to wild action in defense of her followers when they are harmed, not because she can all of sudden switch personality and become misandrist, and uncompassionate. Meanwhile, in Smedman's/Athans' stuff, Eilistraee is not moody at all. She is VERY consistent with being overall uncompassionate and self-righteous. Also kinda dimwitted. The *only* time when she isn't is when she chooses to put herself on the line to free the drow from Lolth, and that was just the pretense to get the "plot" rolling. Her followers got it even worse. In Smedman's/Athans' stuff, generally speaking, they are (mostly dimwitted, too) misandrist a******s who think of themselves as good, to the point that you no longer know who is right and who is wrong when the faction of *murderers and slavers* (the Vhaeraunites) starts killing the Eilistraeens. They also come off as abusive, violent, and merciless (with extremely rare exceptions--who are still sexist, though). They're just a lite version of the Lolthites. In short, they're nothing like the Eilistraeens actually are. Damn, glad all of that was retconned.


It has been a long time since I read Starlights and Shadows, but doesn't the main character end with a fairly good opinion of Eilistraee, even after telling her priesthood to sod off? Either way, Eilistraee is definately in the running for nicest deity, but many of her followers may have a few... issues.

In Starlights and Shadows, the relationship beween Liriel and Eilistraee is very fitting for the M.O. of this goddess. Eilistraee is there for Liriel in all the important moments of her journey, ranging from emotional help (like when Fyodor sees Liriel dancing, supposedly alone, but in truth Eilistraee was there with her) to substantial practical help (healing Fyodor, helping Liriel to understand how to carve her rune, helping her experience sisterhood/brotherhood for the first time, etc...). However, at the same time, Eilistraee never forces a choice on Liriel; she simply empowers the young drow to find her own path.

At the end, *a particular group* of the clergy of Eilistraee displayed (silent) anger towards Liriel (because they perceived her as the one who had brought the Lolthite invasion of the Promenade and the death of Ysolde), and Liriel herself thought she would no longer be welcomed (even though, as said in that very scene, she really wanted to be part of them, because the followers of Eilistraee were the ones who had taught her the meaning of sisterhood/brotherhood). Despite those thoughts however, in that very moment Liriel also heard Eilistraee's song calling to her, and felt the goddess' magic too--a clear signal that Eilistraee was still with her.

As for the other followers of Eilistraee, Ysolde herself was the one to first welcome Liriel on the surfacem and lost her life fighting alongside Liriel. Thorn, Eilistraee's champion quickly became a close friend of Liriel. All the people of the Promenade sheltered Liriel and helped here; it was only when it became clear that Lolth could follow her wherever she went (in fact, Lolth's minions invaded the Promenade at that moment) that they sent her away, but not before guaranteeing safe passages and aid in traveling towards her destination. So, here, it's obvious that the majority of the follower-base would still welcome Liriel (she had got rid of Lolth by the end of the series) save for that particular group within Ysolde's coven. To me, this is a nuanced portryal of the faith, with some people being... well, people, and falling to anger, but with the majority working to respect what they stand for. Ultimately, Liriel chose Mystra because magic was her calling, and even then Eilistraee didn't apply pressure, but still kept making Liriel feel her closeness (as Elaine Cunningham herself put it in a comment over Candlekeep, to Liriel, Eilistraee still represents the sheer joy of life, the beauty of arts and nature, and the feeling of belonging to a "family" of sorts).

[Irennan]

The drow were treated badly enough, but while playing 3e I always got the impression they just kinda decided to be the way they are: yeah, Lolth encouraged them to turn on all the other elves, but they seemed willing enough to do that on their own. And then in 5e I found out that literally every elf is basically under the effects of a curse because they didn't do what daddy wanted exactly how he wanted it. Plus the pre-punishment-of-the-elves lore just makes him come off as an annoying git.

5e was a retcon. The FR version is far more heavily based on politics (and a lot of divine intervention too, but it still has far more politics)

There were 2 kingdoms of dark elves. Ilythiir was the most powerful one, a warmongering nation under the lead of Vhaeraun (Lolth only started becoming prominent after the elves exterminated the followers of Vhaeraun by destroying whole Ilythiiri cities with the Sundering, giving Lolth room to rise).

Eilistraee was the patroness of the other one, Miyeritar, a center of arts and magic where the dark elves lived with other elves (mostly with wood/wild elves, though). Aryvandaar, a warmongering sun elven nation corrupted by a fallen solar, basically nuked Miyeritar with super top-tier high magic that wiped everything (because they refused being annexed by Aryvandaar and kept fighting its occupation). This reduced Eilistraee and her faith to powerlessness (or nearly non existance), and essentially removed them from play for millennia.

The Aryvandaari blamed the Miyeritari for the disaster, but Ilythiir wasn't fooled. Fearing a similar treatment, Ilythiir started turning to the Dark Seldarine for help (minus Eilistraee, who had fought Vhaeraun's and Ghaunadaur's influence on the drow--before Lolth was even worshipped on Toril, as she had been exiled in the Abyss--but lost and was hunted out of the region). They sent balors (Lolth was technically the first, but the rest quickly followed). Ilythiir became an even more powerful and warmongering dark elven nation than it was--but corrupted by balors. However, the corrupted people were nearly entirely among the nobles and rulers, while your random farmer or worker surely wasn't involved in any demonic pacts or whatever. Sounds familiar, right?

Long story short, Aryvandaar and Ilythiir clash, Lolth's corruption of the ruling clan and warriors of Ilythiir is revealed, Corellon comes to the rescue and curses all drow, even the few surviving followers of Eilistraee. After that, the combined armies of all the elven nations violently chase the drow underground. With a strong feeling of resentment spreading among the exiled drow, with Eilistraee being powerless despite her efforts, Lolth gains supremacy (which she still didn't have).

Meanwhile, the rest of the elves realize what Aryvandaar really is, and destroy their ruling house. However, unlike the drow, the sun elves don't get all exiled. The only difference is that they didn't accept power from Corellon's ex-wife. Conclusion: Corellon is petty af.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Corellon is petty af.There's a reason why the elves have him as their racial god, and why he's got of the surface elves.

[ezekielraiden]

Certain versions of Bahamut are pretty friendly. For example, if we expand things to include 4e (I mean, we're already including PF gods), its version of Bahamut is the only deity taking active measures to address the fundamental injustice of (some) souls no longer getting to actually go to the afterlife they deserve, by building massive divine asteroid ark-ships. (Which is, incidentally, metal AF.) These ark-ships are NOT solely for his own worshippers, indeed not even solely for people of alignments he likes. Any wandering soul in the Astral Sea is welcome to come live on them and avoid the many horrible problems that result from not having a proper afterlife home. He's explicitly one of the most compassionate deities in that pantheon, he is totally cool sharing his divine house with the otherwise-homeless and literally tempestuous essentially-CN (with CG leanings) Kord, and his doctrine explicitly calls for taking down oppressive regimes and liberating oppressed peoples. He prefers helping others take care of themselves, rather than controlling or coddling them: independence is important to him.

Bahamut might be a stick in the mud sometimes, but if you want a genuinely kind deity who actively works to better the lives of many and repeatedly overlooks differences of opinion in order to focus on actually helping people, you won't find many that do better. He's "stern and disapproving of evil," sure, but it's very clear that he's willing to work with most folks, and doesn't avoid helping those in need even if some bad apples make it in too.

Also, MaxiDuRaritry, I really hope the alcohol thing is you mostly being facetious. If you're making those arguments entirely seriously, I'm going to be very sad.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Also, MaxiDuRaritry, I really hope the alcohol thing is you mostly being facetious. If you're making those arguments entirely seriously, I'm going to be very sad.Every single family member (close or extended) of mine that has died since I was born died due to overdose, most of which were from alcohol. (Plus my alcoholic father, who died of liver failure.)

You tell me.

[Endarire]

Likely someone who's [Good].

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Likely someone who's [Good].Good is not nice. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodIsNotNice)

[ezekielraiden]

Every single family member (close or extended) of mine that has died since I was born died due to overdose, most of which were from alcohol. (Plus my alcoholic father, who died of liver failure.)

You tell me.

That's a genuine tragedy, and although I have not lost anyone dear to me to alcoholism, I do know how painful it is both to see someone you love deeply suffer from it, and try to help them recover. Thankfully, one of the people in question has recovered and been sober for many years, and the other is...a work in progress.

But that wasn't really my point. My point was more the way you argued. You recognize that, in real life, ethyl alcohol is a toxin--an objective truth. But parleying that as you have within the rules-text of Pathfinder does not come across as seriously engaging with the conversation at hand. It instead comes across as ignoring anything which might disagree with you, and selectively highlighting and heavily extrapolating the few things that might agree. You have, quite clearly, endured some pretty horrible stuff, and to whatever small degree it is possible for me, I empathize with you. (I've lost family members to cancer caused by a lifetime of smoking, for example.) But it is pretty clear, from the rules of Pathfinder, that the consumption of alcohol is not considered self-poisoning, and providing alcohol to another (if legally allowed to consume it) is not considered poisoning either.

Alcohol is specifically classified as a Drug in Pathfinder's rules, and Drugs are distinct from Poisons--they share certain mechanics because both are Afflictions, but are not identical. Coffee, for example, is also classified as a Drug. As an example of the difference, and one quite relevant to your specific concerns (and mine), PF1e Poisons aren't addictive, while PF1e Drugs often are. And the mechanics for Addiction explicitly draw connection to the mechanics for Disease, rather than Poison.

A further (somewhat circumstantial) example: the Drunken Master Monk archetype. Monks gain immunity to poison at level 11 (Diamond Body, "At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.") The Drunken Master would be immune to the effects of alcohol if Pathfinder rules classified it as a poison, and would thus lose the benefit of all of its archetype features, including two features explicitly gained after level 11. (Though it is worth noting, this whole archetype is...silly at best and awful at worst, conceptually, as "Drunken Boxing" has nothing to do with BEING drunk, but rather is a serious martial art where the practitioner moves and sways in lurching, unpredictable movements to confuse and infuriate opponents, especially by giving the illusion of being off-balance.)

Finally, if we DID accept that Drugs and Poisons sharing certain mechanics means that Drugs are Poisons, we'd run into some pretty weird results as well--because Drugs and Poisons are merely two examples of Afflictions, which includes Curses, Infestations, Diseases, Madness, and Pharmaceuticals. That they should share mechanics is not surprising, they have explicitly been grouped together with several other things, which are all presented in similar ways even though, as the rules themselves note, not all Afflictions use every part of these rules. (Also worthy of note: "Pharmaceuticals" are explicitly defined to "include drugs, poisons, and medicines." Circumstantial, admittedly, but separating 'drugs' from 'poisons' there would really only make sense if drugs and poisons are not identical things.)