First Time DM, Phandelver

[thereaper]

So, I'm going to be DMing my first game, a run through the Lost Mines of Phandelver. Nearly everyone in the party will be first-timers, but I can deal with that.

Given that I've never run this (or any, for that matter) adventure, what potential pitfalls should I be aware of?

[Pex]

The first fight, the goblin ambush, is brutal. The players can lose more easily than they can win, though they can win. The goblin bonus action to disengage or hide is a killer to 1st level PCs because they can attack without being counterattacked, especially the archers. PCs cannot afford being hit a second time. One crit can drop one. I've played the scenario three or four times in different campaigns. Even as a player of experience and knowing the encounter after the first time it was never fun. We won the fight, so I know it's possible, but it was all frustration. Pay attention to how the players are reacting. This scenario makes them love or hate the game.

[Luccan]

The first fight, the goblin ambush, is brutal. The players can lose more easily than they can win, though they can win. The goblin bonus action to disengage or hide is a killer to 1st level PCs because they can attack without being counterattacked, especially the archers. PCs cannot afford being hit a second time. One crit can drop one. I've played the scenario three or four times in different campaigns. Even as a player of experience and knowing the encounter after the first time it was never fun. We won the fight, so I know it's possible, but it was all frustration. Pay attention to how the players are reacting. This scenario makes them love or hate the game.

It's worth noting the module states that if the players lose, the goblins knock the characters unconscious and take their stuff, letting the PCs live and potentially get their revenge later. Which I guess makes a little sense considering they likely can't carry at least half the party off for ransom/slavery, although why they wouldn't just cut your throats then is a mystery. And once three goblins are down, the last is supposed to flee.

Edit: Also, the module very much wants you to emphasize the importance of stopping the Redbrands, it's literally all half the town discusses and they're supposed to attack the party after a couple hours of exploring the town. So make sure you have everything to do with them ready because it basically presents itself with a big "Main Quest" sign, even though it's a side quest.

[BurgerBeast]

As mentioned, the first fight is tough. I would add that the boss of Cragmaw Hideout is also way too hard. I’ve TPK’d two groups there.

If you could level up to 2 before that fight, all the better. He hits hard enough to kill a PC outright (i.e. no death saves, just dead).

The adventure runs smooth and is a lot of fun, and the players will have fun. However, if you’re the kind of person who likes your world to make sense, and have the established bad guys not be complete fools, then the whole Redbrands plot is ridiculous. Open confrontation in the middle of town? So stupid.

I would have them lay low, spy on the party, maybe send someone to befriend them and gently explain how the town works and why they might have a better time somewhere else.

If they don’t take the hint, sabotage and assassination attempts seem like much better, low-risk ways to deal with pesky PCs. There are a lot of ways that the Redbrands could really make the PCs’ lives miserable.

[Pex]

It's worth noting the module states that if the players lose, the goblins knock the characters unconscious and take their stuff, letting the PCs live and potentially get their revenge later. Which I guess makes a little sense considering they likely can't carry at least half the party off for ransom/slavery, although why they wouldn't just cut your throats then is a mystery. And once three goblins are down, the last is supposed to flee.

Edit: Also, the module very much wants you to emphasize the importance of stopping the Redbrands, it's literally all half the town discusses and they're supposed to attack the party after a couple hours of exploring the town. So make sure you have everything to do with them ready because it basically presents itself with a big "Main Quest" sign, even though it's a side quest.

That doesn't really make it better. The players don't know the goblins aren't supposed to kill them. A TPK on the first encounter is a major downer, and everyone is alive afterwards can feel like a deus ex machina. What happens if a PC goes down early, say by a crit, and fails three death saves? I accept there's no thrill of victory without a risk of defeat, but the risk has to be worthy. There are several tough fights later in the module, but none are so stacked against the players as this first one. Maybe the Flameskull since the Fireball is so deadly for the party's level and its many resistances/immunities plus flying.

Obviously the players can win. It's no kobayashi maru. I just don't find it a fun encounter. I get no satisfaction from the victory. I'm only glad it's over.

[Luccan]

That doesn't really make it better. The players don't know the goblins aren't supposed to kill them. A TPK on the first encounter is a major downer, and everyone is alive afterwards can feel like a deus ex machina. What happens if a PC goes down early, say by a crit, and fails three death saves? I accept there's no thrill of victory without a risk of defeat, but the risk has to be worthy. There are several tough fights later in the module, but none are so stacked against the players as this first one. Maybe the Flameskull since the Fireball is so deadly for the party's level and its many resistances/immunities plus flying.

Obviously the players can win. It's no kobayashi maru. I just don't find it a fun encounter. I get no satisfaction from the victory. I'm only glad it's over.

I'll bow to your superior experience on this one. I've only run it once, for a 3-player group of 2/3 newbies, and they dealt with it pretty handily. Never been a player in the initial combat myself.

[Tawmis]

The other option is even easier.

If the goblins win the fight - they take the players prisoner.

So now the players are somewhere inside the cave (can even be the first cave, with the wolves/dogs - replace them with goblins). They can try to talk to the goblins, figure out what's going on. Their equipment can be in the same room.

DM can make a careless goblin who goes to give them food, eventually get too close, and be grappled and knocked out, keys taken, heroes freed and have their equipment (and potentially learned something about what's going on).

[Chugger]

I've run this once vs a small, 3 person party. The paladin had ac 16 and 12 hit points. The second char - forgot class but also had over 10 hp. Only the wizard in the party, at 8 hit points, was at risk of going down after a second hit.

The average or pre-rolled damage a goblin does is 5 per hit, whether scimitar or bow.

Two goblins - according to the book - charge and melee while two hang back and shoot arrows.

Iirc the wizard was hit in round one by an arrow but was able to cast Sleep on the two archer goblins. The melee goblins were cut down pretty quickly. The party took a few hits but no one was dropped to zero h.p. And they had two goblin prisoners.

They took a short rest, the wiz got her slot back w/ arcane recovery, and they went on (they'd tied up the goblins and hid them).

I may have opted not to have the goblin archers hide after their shots, but if they had hidden, the wiz still knew their basic location and was able to cast an area spell - sleep - and get them.

So if your party is having trouble just have the goblins forget to hide after their turn, and remember they are ac 13, not ac 15 - cuz bows are two handed devices.

If you have five people in the party but they have no idea how to play, this is a great teaching moment - when players are learning it's okay for you to tell them what their options are. You can always say, "Your character realizes he could just charge the goblin archers and make life difficult for them. If an archer has an enemy next to them, they shoot with disadvantage."

They may not be able to see the goblin archers because they hid (or maybe they do if they rolled well enough), but they can run over and be next to the square one of them is in. Then, they can attack with disadvantage (it's hiding but they know where it is) - and on the goblin's turn it has to use disengage to get away from the character to shoot its bow. Now it can't hide - the warlock can EB it - a wiz or sorc can firebolt it - and so on.

Again, if the fight is too tough for the part have the goblins forget to hide - or tell them some obvious tactics that their characters know they can do, if they're newbie players. It's okay to teach them if the players are open to it and as long as you're giving them options - it's how they learn.

[Sam113097]

Someone on Reddit made these LMoP Character cards (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/6pj6ga/art_lost_mines_of_phandelver_character_cards_for/) to share, and I found them super useful! For a new group learning the ropes of role-playing and interacting with NPCs, they were great!

[thereaper]

So, what I'm seeing here is I need to make the first fight easier (probably remove one of goblins) and cragmaw (leveling up to 2 early should work).

Another question I have is, how much do I need to know in advance about the adventure?

[SirGraystone]

How hard is the first fight also depend of how many players you have if you have less then 4 players I would remove a goblin. Having the goblins dash deeper into the trees and hide between shoot do make it harder, if the group is struggling don't use the hide skill. A lot depend of your party a caster with a sleep spell for example can take out goblin even hidden if they are in range.

For how much you should know of the adventure, I would read chapter 1 at least twice to be familiar on the ambush and the hideout and the chapter 2 once, the rest can wait for now.

[Imbalance]

So, what I'm seeing here is I need to make the first fight easier (probably remove one of goblins) and cragmaw (leveling up to 2 early should work).

Another question I have is, how much do I need to know in advance about the adventure?

Recommend you read the whole thing front to back, twice. It's not very big, and the better you know how it's scripted, the better you'll be able to adapt it.

I'm running it for the first time, myself, also with mostly new players. You're going to make mistakes - so are they. My group has a wide age range, to boot, so secretly I decided not to let anyone's character die before level 2, and no TPK's before at least one of them reached level 5. The first one was supremely useful in building confidence so that the second solution hasn't been needed. It took at least three levels for them to fully get into their own characters and synergize. While our session schedule has been slow, it has allowed me to learn their individual play styles and delve into the lore, adding a host of ties for each character's background to the world.

Treat the book as a guide, not step-by-step instructions, and it will be more fun for everybody.

[thereaper]

Recommend you read the whole thing front to back, twice. It's not very big, and the better you know how it's scripted, the better you'll be able to adapt it.

I'm running it for the first time, myself, also with mostly new players. You're going to make mistakes - so are they. My group has a wide age range, to boot, so secretly I decided not to let anyone's character die before level 2, and no TPK's before at least one of them reached level 5. The first one was supremely useful in building confidence so that the second solution hasn't been needed. It took at least three levels for them to fully get into their own characters and synergize. While our session schedule has been slow, it has allowed me to learn their individual play styles and delve into the lore, adding a host of ties for each character's background to the world.

Treat the book as a guide, not step-by-step instructions, and it will be more fun for everybody.

Oh, gods, so much information.

I'm not sure I'm cut out for this.

[Luccan]

Oh, gods, so much information.

I'm not sure I'm cut out for this.

It can be a lot, but remember you don't have to recall it all at once. Keep the book on hand if you need a quick reference (you'll want it for monsters anyway). If the players decide to go in a totally different direction than you were prepared for that week, then call a short break and read up on what they're about to do. Don't be afraid to improvise, it's a guide not a contract.

[Chronic]

Hey, happy to see you decided to try to become a Gm, it's intimidating, but if you follow your better judgment you will be fine.
Just a few things, talk to your players before the first game, to let them explain what they want or expect. Listen to them and discuss things, it will give you an idea of the ambiance you will create during the sessions.
For phandelver, I just finished to run the campaign for my players. It was the first time I followed a module despite being relatively experienced as a gm and I was disappointed. I ran a module like phandelver assuming it would cut down the amount of work needed, it didn't. There is a few reasons for that and a few are personal. I'm heavy on rp and storytelling and so are most of my players, and in terms of narrative the module is utterly lacking, the motivations of the PJ to follow through are shallow at best, the villain is lacking, the encounter rather bland. I also noticed that the different parts of the modules are badly articulated, the optional quests are difficult to fit in seamlessly if you think of it logically, but the exp they provide is necessary for your players to confront the major encounters.
So a few advices, if you want the module to be short, cut down some encounters and scale the xp up, or use milestone (once the pj comes to a specific point in the story, they level up). If you are like me, the module can take quite some time to finish (around 50 hours of play for my group, maybe more) in this case you will have to iron some links between quest for them to appear organic, and they will require some roleplay to feel interesting. In either case I suggest to flesh out the big bad evil guy, he's utterly boring. Give him a unique personality and some quirks. I made him a manipulator and a deluded drow, convinced is doing it for some great principles, trying to gain power to other throw the tyranny of the drow matriarchy. In reality he's selfish and egocentric.
But it's just one option among many others.

Another example is the encounter with the orcs and the ogre, it very straightforward, there is a cave full of orcs the players need to kill. I spice it up by introducing a moral dilemma. After fighting most of the orcs and the ogre at the entry of the cave, my player had to face 2 female trying to protect children, and the state of the grotto and of it's inhabitants revealed the famished condition of the tribe. But still they attacked and killed innocent merchants. No easy choice to make for my players and no encouragement toward a specific outcome. What ensued was the kind of moment my players will remember.

[Imbalance]

Oh, gods, so much information.

I'm not sure I'm cut out for this.

It is, but not really. And I don't think I am, either. But just do it, and get better as you go. And admit to your players (and they to themselves) that it takes time, trial and error, and flexibility to learn what makes it fun and interesting for your group. What I'm advising is to spend some time reading, but you don't need to memorize it. The wrong thing to do is try to read it as you go, because it isn't structured to flow that way.

Play out Gundren hiring the party with as much dialogue and role-playing as they're comfortable with. Set the scene of them traveling and move into Goblin Arrows. Let it happen organically with the four ambushers, see how the players react. If a character takes enough damage to go down, hit the pause button and make sure everyone understands what that means and what the players can do to help each other. Don't have the goblins move in to finish that character off if this is that player's first time ever. When the goblins get hit, make gutteral goblin pain noises, and describe the damage. Do ugly Smeagol goblin voices, if you want. They'll shout things to each other and taunt the PC's, right? Worry less about the mechanics, and have fun pretending. Trust me, you'll grasp more rules as you go as long as you temper your expectations about what you can do with this out of the box. I'm just saying that you'll be more confident to roll with their collective imaginings when you've already imagined it yourself.

I'm finding that the real story isn't on the pages of the module. The story is what will have happened to your players that they remember later.

[Tawmis]

Honestly - just know the main parts of the story.

One of the DM's best tools you will need to use/develop, is the ability to improvise and make it seem like you're not improvising.

[BurgerBeast]

The first two-four sessions do not require a lot of prep. It’s once the party gets to Phandalin that the options open up. As a new DM you may find yourself overwhelmed at the possibilities, but have a basic idea of how you will handle time in town. Restrict yourself to the likely areas of interest (three key locations and any player-specific hook locations).

And use the Redbrand plot development to redirect things if you get overwhelmed.

[Tawmis]

The first two-four sessions do not require a lot of prep. It’s once the party gets to Phandalin that the options open up. As a new DM you may find yourself overwhelmed at the possibilities, but have a basic idea of how you will handle time in town. Restrict yourself to the likely areas of interest (three key locations and any player-specific hook locations).

And use the Redbrand plot development to redirect things if you get overwhelmed.

It's true - in Phandalin there's a METRIC ton of quests to pick up.

So for first time DM and first time players - what I recommend - read up on the Phandalin quests before hand.

And treat it like an "MMO" in that some quests won't be unlocked until other things happen.

So for example if the go talk to Lady Marian who normally in the module would tell the party about an orc encampment not far away - simply have her just talk to the party. No quests.

However, after the party does Quest01 and Quest02 that they get in Phandalin, Lady Marian seeks them out, hearing of their deeds and asks them to investigate an orc encampment nearby.

This prevents you and your players from feeling overwhelmed and allows you to better control what quests they will go on rather than preparing for like the eight quests available in Phandalin.

[thereaper]

It's true - in Phandalin there's a METRIC ton of quests to pick up.

So for first time DM and first time players - what I recommend - read up on the Phandalin quests before hand.

And treat it like an "MMO" in that some quests won't be unlocked until other things happen.

So for example if the go talk to Lady Marian who normally in the module would tell the party about an orc encampment not far away - simply have her just talk to the party. No quests.

However, after the party does Quest01 and Quest02 that they get in Phandalin, Lady Marian seeks them out, hearing of their deeds and asks them to investigate an orc encampment nearby.

This prevents you and your players from feeling overwhelmed and allows you to better control what quests they will go on rather than preparing for like the eight quests available in Phandalin.

That sounds like an amazing idea. It means I only need to know one of them at a time.

[Tawmis]

That sounds like an amazing idea. It means I only need to know one of them at a time.

I would recommend giving them at least TWO quests. Let them talk it out among each other which one they should do first. This gives their characters (and the players) to have a moment to learn decisive opportunities as to what might be a priority and why.

[Samayu]

The adventure is a lot of fun for new players, and it's easy for GM's, even new GM's. This is the one to start with.

The goblin ambush... I had two of five characters go down, nobody died, though - they got healed. One of them took a crit. This was before I learned the rule that first level characters never get hit by crits.

My players were in and out of the town a few times, trying to deal with the goblins, so they learned of the quests a couple at a time. And they never did learn of them all.

They were deathly afraid of the dragon. I had to prod them to go after it. They killed it handily at level 4.

One of them died in the fight against the orcs in the cave. It was a nasty fight. Just about the only nasty fight.

Read through the whole adventure first, but you don't have to memorize it all. Just get an idea of the flow. The different quests make it tough to get ahead of your players, since you don't know which one they'll take first. But you can put them on a map which will drive which direction they go. The ruined town is on the way to Old Owl Well, which is the direction the orcs are in.

[deljzc]

I've run the first encounter twice and both times the players held back and only sent one person forward to investigate the wagon.

How did you guys run that scenario?

[BurgerBeast]

I was a little surprised to hear that so many parties had trouble with it. But then re-reading it, maybe I didn’t run it “by the book.”

Every time I’ve run it, as the book says, I had the goblins roll against the PCs’ passive Perception scores. In all cases, one or more PCs passed the check. That part is by the book.

What is not so much by the book is that I allowed the PCs to spot the goblins from a much farther distance than right at the horses.

So I more or less let the PCs know the ambush was there. This doesn’t feel entirely out of line with the rules, to me. If the goblins fail their hide checks, they are seen. I don’t see any reason to make the sighting occur quite early (sight range).

[deljzc]

Concentrating on just this encounter, so even if the players around the table know "this is a trap, something is about to happen", when the player(s) see the wagon/horses.

Do you ALWAYS roll for surprise for the PC's? Since the goblins are trying to be stealthy/hidden?

Do you roll for surprise of the PC's who stay back and don't approach the wagons (they are just on the path about 100' away).

Is there any way the PC's can surprise the Goblins (just theoretical discussion)? If once they see the wagon as they round the bend of the road (and maybe they were telling the DM they were travelling slow in stealth mode along the path). Do they have any options at that point to enter the woods and possibly surprise the goblins?

I know I'm being devil's advocate, but there seems to be a lot of nuance at the moment an encounter transitions into the first round of combat. And since PC's in 5e are so powerful in damage dealing, it is important for me to understand the ways we transition into that 1st round of combat when players let loose on damage dealt correctly.

Thanks.

[Chronic]

My players had no issues with this encounter, but it's not the first time I've heard people warning of it's danger.
I think that if your pc are stealth specialist, (rogues, rangers) they should be able to surprise the goblins, if they are not it's quite difficult to justify surprising enemies ambushing you.

[thereaper]

I'm already going to be replacing the dragon with a completely different threat altogether that is a more appropriate CR (these players are too new to think about not fighting something). Also, it'll be more relevant to the players personal backgrounds.

[deljzc]

I always struggle as a DM when the narrative of the story runs into the RULES or outside the box PC actions.

This encounter in Phandelver is very clearly written to be an ambush attack by the Goblins. By definition that means surprise.

But the rules are really odd.

The goblins get +6 on stealth checks. THEY are rolling the dice for surprise vs. the Players' passive perception scores.

I would assume you roll one die for the group of goblins (let's say I roll a 7 + 6 = 13). Then compare that roll vs. every players' passive perception. Ties go to the players, correct?

So all the players with a passive perception of 12 or lower are surprised. All players with a 13 or higher are not surprised.

Or do I make a new roll vs. each player thus preventing me from rolling like a 15 and surprising the whole party unilaterally with one roll? That seems to make surprise very powerful.

Am I missing this type of detail somewhere in the Players Handbook or DM Guide?

I'm sorry, but the more I think about it the more I talk myself into circles.

[terodil]

Phandelver was my first and only adventure as a GM to date, and unfortunately we had to stop somewhere before the final act because of personal reasons. I also had the special situation of only having two players, so I had to adjust a lot of the encounters straight away, and I added a DM-'companion' for the party -- I used her a LOT for adding the 'meat' to the bareboned campaign in the leaflet (she was a Drow, only surviving daughter to a house that Nezznar betrayed in search of personal power) and as emergency backup if stuff went lopsided. Most of my learnings will probably still apply to you, though.

One of the most important things for me was to READ the story and actually work through it, making a plan of who-is-who-and-wants-what. TBH I found the original story horribly lacking as far as Nezznar is concerned (he needs a better story/motivation and presence). The dragon encounter was also terrible. I wanted to show my players (also all newbies) what D&D is about, and IMO it's about joint storytelling, first and foremost (YMMV). On my way to redesigning them I ran into the following posts, which contain excellent ideas, IMO, and which I definitely recommend reading:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/comments/8kc1o4/running_lmop_tips_for_new_dms_from_a_slightly/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/comments/5xqkd0/5e_update_tweaking_thundertree_or_how_i_built_a/


I don't remember if I got it from one of the above posts but in preparation for your gaming sessions, for every NPC (ok, maybe just the important ones) you should have a clear understanding of: their appearance, their story background, their current motivation, and their objective when interacting with your players. Phandelver is far too combat-centric for my tastes. It might be useful to remember that many conflicts can be solved by clever preparation and/or talking. Give your players options to solve stuff with good storytelling instead of combat session #37. (For example, I gave each of the hobgoblins in the cellar different properties and personalities and their own (mini-)stories, so PCs could play on that and even turn them against each other if they paid attention. It's also an opportunity to sprinkle in some humour if you so desire, there is practically none in the campaign and I hated that. Tension needs the occasional comedic relief.)

Also most essential (one thing I failed to do, sadly): Communicate to your players that they should take notes. If they're also newbies go out of your way to show which info is important (e.g. place extra letters/notes/diary entries, make actual hand-outs out of them!) and which is just flavour. Phandelver can turn into a multi-month endeavour if you want and if you want to build in some tension, some intrigue etc. it could be easy for your players to lose sight of the essentials. At the start and end of every session, make sure to summarise what happened before/during the session.

Lastly, two bits of random mini-advice I can still remember: Skip the Doppelgangers. IMO it's not a good idea to provoke paranoia in your players if it's their first adventure with you. As a DM you have enough chances to produce surprises without this cheap trick. And thin out the sidequests in Phandalin. There's too much chaff, it's like those 'collect 10 pelts' quests from MMOs. Use only those that have impact on the main story, or rewrite them so they do, or make them give your players important hints for the story (see above, motivation etc) -- e.g. I gave the ghost in Cronyberry the ability to reward the players with an answer to a single question they had.

Good luck!

[Magicspook]

Concentrating on just this encounter, so even if the players around the table know "this is a trap, something is about to happen", when the player(s) see the wagon/horses.

Do you ALWAYS roll for surprise for the PC's? Since the goblins are trying to be stealthy/hidden?

Do you roll for surprise of the PC's who stay back and don't approach the wagons (they are just on the path about 100' away).

Is there any way the PC's can surprise the Goblins (just theoretical discussion)? If once they see the wagon as they round the bend of the road (and maybe they were telling the DM they were travelling slow in stealth mode along the path). Do they have any options at that point to enter the woods and possibly surprise the goblins?

I know I'm being devil's advocate, but there seems to be a lot of nuance at the moment an encounter transitions into the first round of combat. And since PC's in 5e are so powerful in damage dealing, it is important for me to understand the ways we transition into that 1st round of combat when players let loose on damage dealt correctly.

Thanks.

You are not being the devil's advocate. You are asking exactly the right questions. Thinking of these possibilities beforehand makes it that much easier to provide a response when the players do something unexpected. You are doing well!

I am not going to answer these questions for you. That's your own call to make. Would you think it'd be cool if the players surprised the goblins? One piece of advice though: nobody likes being told 'you are surprised' when they clearly aren't.

[McSkrag]

Two quick suggestions to help you get things off on the right foot:

1) Have the monster always do average damage and never critical until the characters get to level 3.

2) Level the party up to 2 after the first goblin ambush. That will help make the caves more fun and less likely to TPK.

[JeffreyGator]

Level 1-3 can be swingy with dice in any adventure. Not enough hps, not enough spells etc to go a full day.
My parties had more problems with the first couple of levels of the Rage of Dragons than with Phandelver.

Cragmaw can be hard as it can turn into one long continuous fight - or in one case of a series of really high charisma checks and not a single fight.

There is plenty of challenge if they fight and kill everything, but a party doesn't have to do that and there are lots of encounters where position and tactics can turn impossible into easy.

[BurgerBeast]

My players had no issues with this encounter, but it's not the first time I've heard people warning of it's danger.
I think that if your pc are stealth specialist, (rogues, rangers) they should be able to surprise the goblins, if they are not it's quite difficult to justify surprising enemies ambushing you.

According to the text of the adventure the PCs have no chance of surprising the goblins (which is a poor decision in my opinion).


I always struggle as a DM when the narrative of the story runs into the RULES or outside the box PC actions.

This encounter in Phandelver is very clearly written to be an ambush attack by the Goblins. By definition that means surprise.

But the rules are really odd.

The goblins get +6 on stealth checks. THEY are rolling the dice for surprise vs. the Players' passive perception scores.

I would assume you roll one die for the group of goblins (let's say I roll a 7 + 6 = 13). Then compare that roll vs. every players' passive perception. Ties go to the players, correct?

So all the players with a passive perception of 12 or lower are surprised. All players with a 13 or higher are not surprised.

Or do I make a new roll vs. each player thus preventing me from rolling like a 15 and surprising the whole party unilaterally with one roll? That seems to make surprise very powerful.

Am I missing this type of detail somewhere in the Players Handbook or DM Guide?

I'm sorry, but the more I think about it the more I talk myself into circles.

According to the text it’s one check for the goblins. As you mention, the module seems to assume that the encounter will begin with the PCs at the horses, ambush sprung, and some PCS possible surprised. Also poor, in my opinion.

If a PC wins the stealth vs Perception contest, I think he should be able to see the goblins earlier than at the time the ambush is sprung.

[thereaper]

I plan to run it that if someone makes their perception check, there will be no surprise.

[Pex]

Oh yeah, the surprise. Sucks to be the player who is surprised and rolls low on initiative when the goblins get two turns to do stuff before he can do anything. Naturally they fire their arrows at the surprised character and down he goes. What fun.

[thereaper]

So, another dumb question. To make things simpler for everyone, I was planning to use milestone leveling. When would be good milestones for leveling?

[terodil]

Depending on how easy/difficult your group finds the stuff and whether you give them extra feats/ASI to account for newbieness, you might want to give them their first level-up either just before they enter the goblin hideout (the fights can be brutal with the puppies + the hobgoblin) or, if everything's just peachy, when reaching Phandalin.

I expanded the Glassstaff-section considerably and awarded the third level on finding out the truth behind the moniker. Fourth after clearing Cragmaw Castle / finding the location of the magic forge.

I also boosted player power a bit by awarding party-specific loot at particular points (e.g., the dwarven cleric got a shield related to his deity with +1 AC and a once/day 5' AoE 2-round blind DC whatever at the Green Dragon's place; the rogue got a +1 weapon in a secret room behind the Nothic at the Tresendar-mansion).

[thereaper]

Depending on how easy/difficult your group finds the stuff and whether you give them extra feats/ASI to account for newbieness, you might want to give them their first level-up either just before they enter the goblin hideout (the fights can be brutal with the puppies + the hobgoblin) or, if everything's just peachy, when reaching Phandalin.

I expanded the Glassstaff-section considerably and awarded the third level on finding out the truth behind the moniker. Fourth after clearing Cragmaw Castle / finding the location of the magic forge.

I also smoothed the power growth a bit by awarding party-specific loot at specific points (e.g., the dwarven cleric got a shield with +1 AC and a once/day 5' AoE 2-round blind DC whatever at the Green Dragon's place; the rogue got a special weapon from the Tresendar-mansion).


It feels a bit weird to give them their first level up after only one encounter, so I'll probably throw a couple of easy random encounters at them on the way to the hideout, then. But that feels like sort of what I was thinking.

[terodil]

It feels a bit weird to give them their first level up after only one encounter
I think you'll just know when it feels right. It took my group 4h+ to grasp the basics (combat, skill checks, abilities/spells, action economy) and to reach the cave (there's also a ton of skill checks to find it and several traps to evade plus another potential ambush at the river by the cave entrance), for me it felt right to award them with their first level up at the start of the next session (because everybody was dead tired at the end of the first).

[EggKookoo]

So, another dumb question. To make things simpler for everyone, I was planning to use milestone leveling. When would be good milestones for leveling?

IIRC the adventure gives you some milestones. Been a while since I last ran it, though.

[Luccan]

I remember it points out your party should be level 2 by the end of the cave. It might point out other good level up points later, I can't recall, but after the cave (which I can't imagine many parties ignoring for later) the adventure opens up. Milestone leveling is best done after completing a certain number of difficult goals (or at least genuinely doing your best to do so even if you fail), IME, rather than tying it to the completion or beginning of a certain task. Generally, the DM is increasing the number required of goals slightly every few levels.

[Samayu]

It feels a bit weird to give them their first level up after only one encounter, so I'll probably throw a couple of easy random encounters at them on the way to the hideout, then. But that feels like sort of what I was thinking.

I had some RP leaving town, then the goblin ambush, then a random encounter on third watch. That was the whole first session (less than four hours). Then they leveled. That was actually using XP. First level should always be awarded quickly. They learn a lot in those moments of terror!

I'm having trouble remembering, but I think we played it in five sessions. Fourth level lasting two nights. Definitely be second level at the goblin cave. Third at the Manor.

[Pex]

While the ambush is brutal the rest of the module I find fun. I'm still fond of before entering the cave we found the two lazy goblin guards. We captured them instead of killing them, and they told us Little Boss wanted to get rid of Big Boss. They led us right to Little Boss, and we agreed to kill Big Boss in exchange for the releasing of Sildar. The lazy goblin guards escorted us straight to the bugbear. We were able to walk through the entire cave system without a fight as we were vouched for. We came upon the bugbear killing him and his wolf in three rounds. The goblins were happy and left the area to find their fortunes elsewhere. The two lazy goblin guards joined our party as NPC followers. One eventually got promoted to PC and converted to my cleric's religion.

[Luccan]

It's fun hearing how everyone changed up the module. I gave the mayor, or whatever his title is, a daughter studying under Iarno Albreck (aka Glasstaff) when he was still a member of the Lord's Alliance. It gave me what I felt was a more tangible reason for the village head to ignore the Redbrands, who weren't even preventing people from leaving town, since Glasstaff was holding her hostage. It also let me introduce a friendly, low-level wizard who could identify items for the party (which with a Barbarian, Druid, and Rogue couldn't).

[thereaper]

Session 1 went shockingly well. The PCs saw the goblins in time, and so only two of them hit 0 hp during the fight. They then successfully defeated 2 more goblins, 2 wolves, and a black bear. And they only nat 1'd about 40% of their rolls. :smallamused:

[EggKookoo]

Awesome! Glad it went well!

[patchyman]

I'll bow to your superior experience on this one. I've only run it once, for a 3-player group of 2/3 newbies, and they dealt with it pretty handily. Never been a player in the initial combat myself.

It’s D&D. The almighty d20 plays a huge roll as always. That said, my experience was closer to yours. Played it yesterday with 3 (non-tactically) savvy players, plus an NPC, and none of the players dropped.