Explorer's Guide to Wildemount mechanics discussion thread

[bendking]

What do you guys think of the new subclasses and spells?
Here's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlwqTedGcfQ) a preview of the subclasses by DNDBeyond, you can just skim the video to get to the relevant spots.

Echo Knight is really cool. Both fluff and crunch. I like it a lot.
At a first glance, the Chronurgy Wizard is utterly broken. It can cast Leomund's Tiny Hut as an action mid-battle as long as it prepped it before.
It can also give an entire party Familiars. Basically, you can abuse the hell out of it with spells that don't take an action to cast.
Haven't gotten to the Graviturgist yet.

[LudicSavant]

I don't have the book yet, so I'm looking at the preview video and Chronurgist is setting off alarm bells for me. They look to have good abilities in general, but Arcane Abeyance immediately caught my eye.

So, it seems like the intended effect of Arcane Abeyance is to allow someone to use their own action economy and Concentration for one of your spells (including stuff that's usually self-buffs like Shadow Blade), which is already a very strong ability, even if it's just 1/SR.

But on top of that, if I'm reading this right (and I hope I'm not) it seems like no matter how long it took to cast the initial spell, the recipient can cast it as an action. And it then counts as them casting the spell in all respects except for the DC and spell attack. Which suggests that you could indeed just... give everyone familiars. Or you could store long-cast spells like Leomund's Tiny Hut or Magic Circle or even Glyph of Warding. It doesn't even require that the spell you store is a Wizard spell.

They explicitly prevented this for the Artificer, so it seems strange that they'd let it through the cracks here. The biggest issues would go away if they used a wording like "if you cast a spell of 4th level or lower that has a casting time of 1 action or 1 bonus action." Or something like that.

[nickl_2000]

One of the people at my table buys every book on D&D Beyond (and another has a DM subscription), so I'm lucky enough that I can see the whole thing.

I really, really like the "Gift of Alacrity" a non-concentration buff that can be cast on others that increases initiative by 1d8. It can change the party and really help out others but isn't to powerful.


As for subclasses, the Echo Knight seems interesting and really cool to me. The others are Wizard subclasses and I just am not interested in Wizard as more than a dip class.

[LudicSavant]

I really, really like the "Gift of Alacrity" a non-concentration buff that can be cast on others that increases initiative by 1d8.

It reminds me of Nerveskitter, which was oft considered a big case of Wizard power creep back in the 3.5e days. It's a similar bonus, but can be precast on however many people you want/have spell slots for within 8 hours instead of eating your (3.5e equivalent of a) reaction when combat breaks out.

[nickl_2000]

It reminds me of Nerveskitter, which was oft considered a big case of Wizard power creep back in the 3.5e days. It's a similar bonus, but has to be precast within 8 hours instead of eating your (3.5e equivalent of a) reaction. And unlike Nerveskitter, can augment the entire party with repeated castings.

So are you saying that the spell will result in power creep? I can't tell from your post if you are for or against it. Honestly, the 5e spells seems much better than Nerveskitter.

[LudicSavant]

So are you saying that the spell will result in power creep?

When paired with the other stuff Chronurgist gets? Quite possibly.

[nickl_2000]

When paired with the other stuff Chronurgist gets? Quite possibly.

All I know for sure is that if my DM allows it, this is likely to be an off school spell my current AT takes at level 3. Moving first for a Rogue can be super helpful, Assassins and Gloomstalkers are even more likely to go for Magic Initiate to get this spell.

[samcifer]

I really like the new dragonborn variant. WAY more useful overall than the base version. I like the fighter sub-class and the time wizard subclass, but the gravity wizard one seems rather meh to me. The Time Ravage spell is an absolute nightmare to be on the receiving end of, imo.

Also, it's nice to have the tortle and especially the bird race arakocra (why is that race name so hard to spell?) in book-form

[Wildarm]

Opinions on the subclasses:

Echo Knight - Mechanically quite strong. Having two effective zones of control is quite interesting. Sentinel seems very very effective with this combo. Move 15', attack foe, bonus action to manifest echo 30' away, swap places with it. Now when the foe attempts to move away from your echo, they provoke an AoO and it you hit they are stuck next to your echo. I can also imagine some fun AT Rogue multiclassing fun with Warcaster and Booming blade along the same vein.

Chonurgy - Nice theme. A bit of the divination wizard but with some more offensive abilities. I would homebrew the 10th level ability to have the user need to use the same amount of time/action to activate the mote as the casting time of the spell. Otherwise you get into shenanigans which are annoying to handle as a DM. Tiny Hut, Magic Circle, Glyph of Warding(Maybe) and Find Familiar are all a bit abuse-able with this. Also makes you able to effectively use bonus action and reaction spells which it currently cannot effectively do.

Graviturgy - Wow, what a fantastic controller mage package! At will disadvantage/advantage on Str checks and +/- 10 movement. Pairs well with a grappler or to give yourself or someone else a speed boost. Level 6 abilities is absolutely amazing. Being able to shuffle friendlies or foes 5' after an hit or save failure is very nice. Combines well with hazardous terrian that exists or that you or an ally create. Event Horizon makes Clerics look at their Spirit Guardians and cry. What a fantastic rechargeable ability. Damage + 0 or 1/3rd movement in a 30' radius is insane!

[ProsecutorGodot]

The only thing about the Dunamancy Spells is that they aren't actually on the Wizard spell list, they're an option of spells available to those two subclasses. They're not something you can choose at level up for a standard Wizard subclass, Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster.

Reading these dragonborn variants brought me back to before I knew how terrible their actual statblock was and made me excited to look at playing one again.

A lot of the magic items are also pretty cool. Battering Shield, Duskcrusher (a mix of Sun Blade and Sunforger, who could pass this up) and Spell Bottle all seem good. Danoth's Visor also interests me personally as a high level replacement for a Robe of Eyes.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

I'm not too worried about the flavor of the spells or subclass as I don't think has to fit with every setting. Plus if we ever get a Spelljammer book I think these will fit in just fine!

What I am worried about is the spells being too good to pass up even if they don't jive with a character thematically.

Also on the Echo Knight, it can easily be reflavored as a ghost buddy or something akin to the ancestral guardian. Maybe the ghost of your murdered father helps you in combat on your quest for revenge?

[Evaar]

You know, I just assumed this book would make the Blood Hunter officially official. But no one in this thread is discussing and I’m realizing I haven’t seen any promotion or hype similar to the Artificer’s release; does this book really not have it? If not, that’s quite a bummer. That would’ve been my main reason for purchase.

[ProsecutorGodot]

You know, I just assumed this book would make the Blood Hunter officially official. But no one in this thread is discussing and I’m realizing I haven’t seen any promotion or hype similar to the Artificer’s release; does this book really not have it? If not, that’s quite a bummer. That would’ve been my main reason for purchase.

It has them as a monster statblock, sadly no other mention.

[Daphne]

I'm glad they played it safe. Most spells target CON (strong save) and none of the subclasses seem OP.

Echo Knight gives you to zones of control yeah, but it uses your reaction so I don't think it's that good. Also, the extra attack is CON/day which is quite a low number of uses.

I also really liked the Dragonborn variants. Mechanically I like this book a lot more than recent WotC setting books like Ravnica.

[Temperjoke]

You know, I just assumed this book would make the Blood Hunter officially official. But no one in this thread is discussing and I’m realizing I haven’t seen any promotion or hype similar to the Artificer’s release; does this book really not have it? If not, that’s quite a bummer. That would’ve been my main reason for purchase.

The problem with Blood Hunter is that it was released in a book through another printing company. I'm gonna guess that complicated matters legally speaking, even if Mercer has continued tweaking and updating the class.

[Naanomi]

It’s a shame those spells don’t find themselves on other lists... a lot of them flavor into warlock (goolock) very well

[ProsecutorGodot]

It’s a shame those spells don’t find themselves on other lists... a lot of them flavor into warlock (goolock) very well

They are technically classless spells.

This section presents a sampling of spells developed through the manipulation of dunamis. These spells are available to the wizard subclasses previously mentioned in this chapter, as well as other spellcasting classes with the Dungeon Master’s consent (see the “Dunamancy for Non-Dunamancers” sidebar).
Dunamancy spells are readily available to the wizard subclasses in this chapter and should not be simply added to the full spell lists of other spellcasting classes. However, the Dungeon Master can consider allowing other spellcasting classes opportunities throughout the campaign to learn a handful of dunamancy-themed spells as rewards. Perhaps the characters uncover a cache of magical contraband, among which is a couple of spell scrolls, or a traveling acolyte takes some downtime with a friendly cleric character and opens their mind to some of the stranger secrets of the universe, unlocking a spell or two. There are many unique ways to bring these spells into your game without requiring any specific dunamis-wielding subclasses to be present in the adventuring party.

They're not even considered "wizard spells" they only exist by default as options for Chronurgy Wizards and Graviturgy Wizards.

If your DM is open to the idea you can expand it to many classes, natural fits for a few of the spells (in my opinion) include Whispers/Lore Bard, Circle of Star's Druid and Wild Magic/Abberant Mind Sorcerer.

[king_steve]

There is a sidebar discussing the dunamancy spells for other spell casters (sidebar titled Dunamancy FOR Non-Dunamancers) but it mostly says its up to the DM if they want to allow others to learn a spell off the list.

I think the Echo Knight looks like it would be interesting and I really like both Dragonborne subclasses.

[Contrast]

The problem with Blood Hunter is that it was released in a book through another printing company. I'm gonna guess that complicated matters legally speaking, even if Mercer has continued tweaking and updating the class.

Blood Hunter wasn't in the Tal'Dorei Campaign Setting book.

To my knowledge its only official release has been through DMS Guild, it has never seen print in an actual book.

[Temperjoke]

Blood Hunter wasn't in the Tal'Dorei Campaign Setting book.

To my knowledge its only official release has been through DMS Guild, it has never seen print in an actual book.

My bad, I thought it was, though it's been a while since I've looked through that book.

[Evaar]

Frankly I find it baffling it was left out. That should have been The Thing to get players interested in buying the book. If it wasn't ready then the book should have been delayed.

Anyway. I'll see myself out since this isn't related to the mechanics.

[HPisBS]

I really like the Echo Knight, both thematically and mechanically. You basically get a Shadow Clone to fight and scout with. It isn't an autonomous creature, as doing anything with it other than moving requires your active control, but still. I kinda feel like the thematics would've fit a little better as a Monk, but whatever. You can always mix-and-match classes and subclasses in house rules, I guess. And if that isn't an option for a particular table, then oh well, at least now there's something that can actually get me excited to play a fighter.

Speaking of mismatches of class and subclass, Graviturgist feels more like a Sorcerer than a Wizard. Or is that just me?

Chronomancer Chronurgist, however, certainly belongs among Wizards, but it at least flirts with being OP.
- Chronal Shift is analogous to Portent or Lucky, which is fine. Can't call it OP yet, even though they're often considered among the best features in the game.
- Momentary Stasis is fun and flavorful. Incapacitating 1 enemy for < 1 round isn't super powerful alone, since it doesn't automatically grant you advantage.
- Arcane Abeyance, as written, is where things get crazy. It may be balanced enough to have a more limited Ring of Spell Storing- like feature at level 10, but letting you turn any spell into a 1 Action cast is just too much. I'd edit it to be "A creature holding the bead can take the spell's original casting time to release the spell..."
- Convergent Future is useful, but comes with a pretty big downside. I guess that's to make up for how strong the rest of the subclass is lol

Edit: Speaking of potential OP-ness, the teleport probably should've been limited to Con Mod / short rest uses or something.

[Misterwhisper]

I love the concept of the echo knight, but as mentioned in my other thread they are a little fuzzy on the echo.

1. I would assume it counts as an ally, but it is not mentioned as being a creature I don't think.


2. Can it do things other than attack?
- can it interact with an object? Like could I have it open a door for me if I think it is trapped?
- Does it actually have weight or make noise, what if the group is trying to stealth?

3. It takes up its space but what movements can it do, mine, floating around, what?


I am thinking of combining 3 levels or maybe 5 with the rest as a rogue, bonus action flanking buddy.


Actually it should have just been a rogue subclass.

I do love the idea of it being a short range of sight TP.

Locked in a cell, Manifest it outside the bars, switch places and leave.
Or
Manifest it next to the guard and attack him while standing in your cell.

[LudicSavant]

Arcane Abeyance really needed to have a wording similar to the Artificer's spell storing item (which prevents you from using things like Find Familiar or other long-cast spells in it). As is you can give your whole party familiars, throw down spells that should never have been viable to cast in combat, use a minion's action to add to your nova opener, keep multiple Concentration spells going at a time, and more. Any single one of those things alone would be very strong, and it's all rolled into one ability.

And it's not like Arcane Abeyance is just compensating for other features being lackluster. They get potent additions to the Wizard spell list (like those non-Concentration buffs), and solid subclass features all around.

Graviturgist on the other hand doesn't seem to be offering half as much in terms of class features (though I can't look at all their new spells in the preview). Adjust Density is a rather modest effect and eats your Concentration. Gravity Well at least gives you a little extra ability to push people around, but only "when you cast the spell" and only if you hit them or they're willing. Violent Attraction gives you a 1d10 damage reaction 5 times a day at level 10, which is nothing to really write home about. And Event Horizon is basically giving you a decent new spell and an extra slot for it.

[jaappleton]

A few comments:

1. On the Blood Hunter: WOTC wasn’t comfortable with making a whole new class official. I could certainly argue it got more play testing than the Artificer did, however, it just recently got a huge overhaul (switching from WIS to INT, among many other changes) and... There just hasn’t been enough feedback. (Confirmed by Mercer himself)

2. You can’t use the Chonurgist’s lv10 feature to cast Tiny Hut as an action. Casting time happens as normal once activated. (Confirmed to me by co-author James Haeck)

On to the subclasses.

Echo Knight: Strong. Unique. Seems fun, but honestly, it’s a supercharged Invoke Duplicity. I like it, but not in love with it.

Chronurgist: Fun. Even as just a level two dip for an Eldritch Knight or Artificer, or certain Rogues, it’s damn great. Up there with Bladesinger for dipping, but ranged characters might prefer this.

Graviturgist: Eh.... Look not everything is a winner. It’s not BAD. But compared to some other schools, I’d have a real hard time recommending it.

The Spells: I don’t care much for high level spells. I never play high level games, so I never get to use them. However, Pulse Wave? That is a damn nice spell. Likely my go-to third level spell now. Put that on an Eldritch Knight with Sentinel? Modify Gravity is solid. That cantrip? Do NOT sleep on that Cantrip! 1d4 Necrotic and knocks probe? WHAT?! That is a damn good cantrip.

The subraces.... Perhaps somewhat underpowered occasionally, but actually pretty good. FINALLY a Dragonborn that doesn’t suck! Do they still get Draconic Breath and Resistance?

The magic items! THE MAGIC ITEMS. A Warhammer that’s a Sunblade AND CAN CAST SUNBEAM?! The Butcher’s Bib, who grants temp HP and allows weapon crits on a 19 or 20? Yes and yes! Barbarians with the Butcher’s Bib.... WOW.

One more comment about the spells: I’d actually love to see a Warlock Patron built around using some of these spells. I think thematically Warlock works to allow some of them, they’re supposed to be borderline forgotten spells, carefully guarded due to their power. I would say no to Sorcerers getting any, because I am leery about their use with Metamagic. But Warlocks? And Bards vía Magical Secrets? I’d say “yes”.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Graviturgist on the other hand doesn't seem to be offering half as much in terms of class features (though I can't look at all their new spells in the preview).

The 9th level spell is fairly disruptive and potentially very dangerous. The AoE is a 20ft sphere that pulls creatures and objects within 100ft who fail a strength save, if you enter or begin your turn in the sphere you are restrained and take 5d10 force damage. You use your action to escape, the spell is concentration and lasts a minute. If the spell reduces you to 0 hit points you are annihilated along with all nonmagical items worn or carried.

But all of the Graviturgy spells seem to be the same variation of "make a con/str save or be moved and take average (or below) damage for this spell level, sometimes your movement is hindered on top of this" none of them seem bad, just functionally not very interesting.

[HPisBS]

2. You can’t use the Chonurgist’s lv10 feature to cast Tiny Hut as an action. Casting time happens as normal once activated. (Confirmed to me by co-author James Haeck)

They need to write it that way, then.


Edit:

...
But all of the Graviturgy spells seem to be the same variation of "make a con/str save or be moved and take average (or below) damage for this spell level, sometimes your movement is hindered on top of this" none of them seem bad, just functionally not very interesting.

Well, what else would they be?

We've already got Reverse Gravity. The only other application I can think of would be some kind of Personal Gravity that pulls everything nearby towards the target creature - dealing a modest amount of bludgeoning, etc damage as appropriate to the surrounding loose objects, making the area around the spell's target difficult terrain (which would move with him), and giving attacks against the spell's target advantage as weapons, etc get pulled into his body, too.

And it'd probably have to be another Con save.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Well, what else would they be?

We've already got Reverse Gravity. The only other application I can think of would be some kind of Personal Gravity that pulls everything nearby towards the target creature - dealing a modest amount of bludgeoning, etc damage as appropriate to the surrounding loose objects, making the area around the spell's target difficult terrain (which would move with him), and giving attacks against the spell's target advantage as weapons, etc get pulled into his body, too.

And it'd probably have to be another Con save.

Hard to say, all I'm really sure of is that between the two Chronurgist was probably given more creative space.

As far as how the spells were categorized, Chronurgists can change your perception of time, throw you through time, age you to near death and break the fabric of reality. Graviturgists can cause gravity to change from a minor to insane degree but not much else.

Perhaps there could have been a spell that does something more like the Violent Attraction feature of the class (my favorite from a thematic perspective), messing with the momentum of things. Perhaps an area of effect that causes projectiles or non grounded objects/creatures to move in ways that you want them to, increasing your allies abilities or inhibiting your enemies.

Going back and reading through though, I did stumble on Immovable Object's upcasting... Cast it at 6th level and you can restrain in some pretty creative ways. Fantastic for securing a base of operations as well.

[Nadan]

A few comments:

The subraces.... Perhaps somewhat underpowered occasionally, but actually pretty good. FINALLY a Dragonborn that doesn’t suck! Do they still get Draconic Breath and Resistance?



No, you have to give up Resistance for those 1/short rest abilities.

[LudicSavant]

2. You can’t use the Chonurgist’s lv10 feature to cast Tiny Hut as an action. Casting time happens as normal once activated. (Confirmed to me by co-author James Haeck)

Well you should ask James Haeck why his book explicitly says otherwise, then.


They need to write it that way, then.

Indeed.

[Misterwhisper]

Well you should ask James Haeck why his book explicitly says otherwise, then.



Indeed.

Just more proof that WOTC does not actual play test or fine tooth the supplement books.

I always said that after the hot garbage of the M:tG book.

[ProsecutorGodot]

My best guess is as to the reasoning for not allowing Tiny Hut (or other longer casting time spells) is that "when you cast a spell" and "the spell is frozen at the moment of casting" is somehow meant to imply that you decided to freeze it when you begin casting a spell.

This is obviously not what it says though, and if a feature requires such an inference to reach the desired intent then it should have been written more clearly. Unless there's anything clear to say otherwise, the way Arcane Abeyance works is that the Wizard casts for the full cast time, seals the spell for an hour when they've finished and then anyone else can cast it as an action. I can even see an argument in favor of the Wizard not having to cast the spell for its full cast time at all, although the "frozen at the moment of casting" might be suitable enough to shoot that down.


Just more proof that WOTC does not actual play test or fine tooth the supplement books.

I always said that after the hot garbage of the M:tG book.
A bit harsh, things going against your taste doesn't automatically make them garbage. And in this case I'm fairly confident that James Haeck is not a Wizards of the Coast employee (he's a freelance writer whom they have hired several times), nor is he a go to source of balance and mechanics information.

I recall JC saying that he had done a balance pass over of the subclasses, so if we want the intention of their mechanics we should ask him.

[HPisBS]

...
As far as how the spells were categorized, Chronurgists can change your perception of time, throw you through time, age you to near death and break the fabric of reality. Graviturgists can cause gravity to change from a minor to insane degree but not much else.

Perhaps there could have been a spell that does something more like the Violent Attraction feature of the class (my favorite from a thematic perspective), messing with the momentum of things. Perhaps an area of effect that causes projectiles or non grounded objects/creatures to move in ways that you want them to, increasing your allies abilities or inhibiting your enemies.
...

Ooh, how about


Mutual Attraction
_?_ level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Two creatures of your choice within range must each make a Strength saving throw. On a failure, the creature and everything it is holding or carrying is affected for the duration, though a creature may repeat this saving throw at the end of each of its turns to partially avoid its effects. On a success, the creature's current location is considered a target instead.

On any turn in which a creature fails its save, it is pulled up to 30 ft towards the other target. If they collide, they each take 1d4 bludgeoning damage for every cumulative 5 ft traveled, and are gravitationally grappled. While grappled in this way, a creature has disadvantage on all attack rolls (except against the other target), as well as on all Strength and Dexterity saving throws.

To move directly away from another target, a creature must spend 3 ft of movement for every 1 ft it moves. To voluntarily move towards another target only costs 1 ft of movement for every 2 ft it moves. To move in any other direction costs 2 ft of movement per 1 ft moved.

If a creature succeeds its Strength saving throw at the end of its turn, then it is not forcibly pulled towards the other target.
__ __ __ __ __

When you cast this spell with a higher level spell slot, you may target one additional creature for each slot level above ___, with each affected target being pulled toward the center of all targets instead. If multiple targets become locations, then the center of those targets is also considered a target.

Would that be an interesting enough application? What spell level would this amount of power need to be in order for it to be worthwhile? 3rd?
Would it be balanced to make it a higher level spell, but not use concentration?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Would that be an interesting enough application? What spell level would this amount of power need to be for you to choose it? 3rd?
Would it be balanced to make it a higher level spell, but not use concentration?

I'd be concerned about having it target two creatures and require both to fail for any decent effect, seems likely that it would fail often. This has me thinking about a combination spell that could be used with Immovable Object though, perhaps you could have a spell that gives an already existing object or creature a certain amount of pull rather than all of them creating a sphere with such a pull.

[HPisBS]

I'd be concerned about having it target two creatures and require both to fail for any decent effect, seems likely that it would fail often.

Not so. I tried to be careful with the creature / target wording so that even if only one creature was affected, it would still suffer the full effects - except then, the 2nd target would never run into the 1st on its turn, obviously. (Though I guess the word "collide" could be construed to negate the d4's of damage if the other target winds up being a location.)
... Unless maybe the "location" was considered to be a table or something lol


This has me thinking about a combination spell that could be used with Immovable Object though, perhaps you could have a spell that gives an already existing object or creature a certain amount of pull rather than all of them creating a sphere with such a pull.

I must be misunderstanding you, because that sounds like the purely mutual pull effect that I already wrote.

[Misterwhisper]

My best guess is as to the reasoning for not allowing Tiny Hut (or other longer casting time spells) is that "when you cast a spell" and "the spell is frozen at the moment of casting" is somehow meant to imply that you decided to freeze it when you begin casting a spell.

This is obviously not what it says though, and if a feature requires such an inference to reach the desired intent then it should have been written more clearly. Unless there's anything clear to say otherwise, the way Arcane Abeyance works is that the Wizard casts for the full cast time, seals the spell for an hour when they've finished and then anyone else can cast it as an action. I can even see an argument in favor of the Wizard not having to cast the spell for its full cast time at all, although the "frozen at the moment of casting" might be suitable enough to shoot that down.


A bit harsh, things going against your taste doesn't automatically make them garbage. And in this case I'm fairly confident that James Haeck is not a Wizards of the Coast employee (he's a freelance writer whom they have hired several times), nor is he a go to source of balance and mechanics information.

I recall JC saying that he had done a balance pass over of the subclasses, so if we want the intention of their mechanics we should ask him.

It is not against my taste, it is outright power crazy unbalanced stupidity to create backgrounds that give class specific spells to whatever casting class you are AND they can cast it with their own casting stat.

Meanwhile noncasters got... nothing.

[LudicSavant]

And in this case I'm fairly confident that James Haeck is not a Wizards of the Coast employee (he's a freelance writer whom they have hired several times), nor is he a go to source of balance and mechanics information.

Isn't James Haeck the same guy who thinks Chromatic Orb is "mighty" and "one of the most powerful 1st level spells in D&D"?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Not so. I tried to be careful with the creature / target wording so that even if only one creature was affected, it would still suffer the full effects - except then, the 2nd target would never run into the 1st on its turn, obviously. (Though I guess the word "collide" could be construed to negate the d4's of damage if the other target winds up being a location.)
... Unless maybe the "location" was considered to be a table or something lol
If one creature saves, their location becomes the target that the first creature is pulled towards and then that second creature is never bothered by the spell again. Could just be the wording (which I wouldn't expect to be perfect on a rough draft) but it looks to me like the spell becomes pretty mediocre if it only affects one creature.


I must be misunderstanding you, because that sounds like the purely mutual pull effect that I already wrote.
Similar, sure, but I'd prefer to avoid having it become overly complex with creatures being targets, their current location being targets and the center point of all connected targets being targets.


It is not against my taste, it is outright power crazy unbalanced stupidity to create backgrounds that give class specific spells to whatever casting class you are AND they can cast it with their own casting stat.

Meanwhile noncasters got... nothing.
Right, see that at least makes some sense. Perhaps in the future clarify "I disliked the poorly balanced backgrounds they added in GGtR." instead of making a blanket "the entire MTG book was garbage" statement then? You leave a lot less room to be misunderstood.


Isn't James Haeck the same guy who thinks Chromatic Orb is "mighty" and "one of the most powerful 1st level spells in D&D"?
I wouldn't know if he has said that, but I do know that he tends to be a writer first and a mechanics guy third (or fifth). I respect a lot of the work he's done in helping with the writing of modules (Dragon Heist and Avernus) but I'm not looking at him for my mechanics questions.

[HPisBS]

If one creature saves, their location becomes the target that the first creature is pulled towards and then that second creature is never bothered by the spell again. Could just be the wording (which I wouldn't expect to be perfect on a rough draft) but it looks to me like the spell becomes pretty mediocre if it only affects one creature.

I figured that soft shutting down even 1 target for the full duration would be decent enough since so many spells break on subsequent saves, and letting it apply to a second would be gravy.

... But I guess the way it's written, it could be pretty easy to break the grapple, since it doesn't say it takes any kind of ability check or anything. So, just spend 15 ft of movement to break the grapple, then there's no more disadvantage to your attacks or saves.

Would you make that Str check take an action, or just let it be free when they move away from the other target?


Similar, sure, but I'd prefer to avoid having it become overly complex with creatures being targets, their current location being targets and the center point of all connected targets being targets.


You're right, that does convolute things. I guess it'd be better to remove the upcasting enhancement altogether

[LudicSavant]

I wouldn't know if he has said that

Seems he did: https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/535-spell-spotlight-chromatic-orb

[Chaos Jackal]

As far as the spells go, there's surprisingly few issues.

High level spells are supposed to be very powerful in the first place, and while Dark Star makes an argument for invalidating Maddening Darkness (essentially superior at all but area of effect, and you could argue that Maddening Darkness' area was bigger than it needed anyway) there's not something overly concerning at the top. Flavorful and in line with other spells of their level. There's definitely not something as powerful as, say, Forcecage or True Polymorph.

As far as lower level spells are concerned, I'd argue that overall the dunamancy available is actually on the weaker end.

Sapping Sting is an overall decent cantrip, an alternative to Frostbite and Vicious Mockery that can be worth it depending on initiative order and the prevalence of enemy flyers.

Gift of Alacrity is a strong effect for any class that might pick it up (don't give this to warlocks, they'll start every day of theirs with a short rest after adding 1d8 to everyone's initiative) and Magnify Gravity is a good effect at low levels, and can still stay relevant later, although its damage scaling is weak. It's got a better damage type than Thunderwave and is more flexible, and Thunderwave was already a neat spell for the early game.

Things don't stay as good later on though.

Fortune's Favor is good, but it also carries an 100gp material component that is consumed after the cast and cannot be used in combat. Is one use of the Lucky feat worth a 2nd-level slot and 100gp? I'm not convinced.

Immovable Object has its uses, and given that it's not something you'd normally be casting all that often (as opposed to Fortune's Favor) the 25gp cost is more or less negligible. You could do some fun things with this spell.

Wristpocket, well... It's not that it's terrible, it's a fun little spell and is also a ritual, but requiring concentration really annoys me. I get that it's not a combat spell, so it's not going to disrupt your buffs or debuffs all that often, but it's still nagging at me. It means that, for example, I cannot hide the enemy's sword and go invisible, or grab the McGuffin and throw down a wall spell to cover me from the inevitable bad guy onslaught since I've halted their ritual. If it wasn't for the ritual tag, I'd consider this spell way more trouble than it's worth, but as it stands I cannot condemn it in good heart. It's still irritating though.

Pulse Wave, I honestly don't like. Damage type is good, the effect is nice, but the damage is low when compared with the inevitable Fireball, Constitution isn't a good save to target as the game moves on, and cone effects are inflexible and often hard to properly utilize. Would I pick Pulse Wave over Fireball? Possibly, especially if I feel like fire resistance is an issue, but I'd still be wary. 3rd-level spells just have so much competition, and I feel like Pulse Wave possesses neither the oomph of a Fireball nor the encounter-ending potential of Hypnotic Pattern or Fear. Unlike, say, Synaptic Static (which also has low damage for its level), Pulse Wave just doesn't have as powerful a side effect to justify its lack of firepower and the common save. And its combo potential is hampered by that damn cone effect.

Gravity Sinkhole, on the other hand, has none of these issues. Damage is up to speed (an upcast Fireaball deals 4 more damage, an upcast Gravity Sinkhole deals the same damage as Steel Wind Strike and only 3 less than Cone of Cold), spheres are far easier to aim than cones, potential for disruption is high... Pop this outside the castle window and defenestrate half the enemy troops, or just cast it at a higher point and add falling damage to the mix. Comparing this to Pulse Wave, I really feel like the latter is underwhelming.

Temporal Shunt is a weird case. It's Counterspell+Shield rolled into one and given steroids, at the exchange of a 5th-level slot and a chance to save. Is it worth it? Hard to tell. Against a fighter-type with bad Wisdom making five attacks in order to hack someone apart, it's gold. As a Counterspell, I'd rather cast/upcast Counterspell, especially if the DM announces enemy spells or allows Arcana checks to identify them. Ultimately, I'd say it's alright. It's not as powerful as it initially appears, but with careful usage it can really turn the tables.

Side note, but the scaling of this spell is also weird. It says you can choose more targets when you upcast it, but it's a reaction you take when a creature attacks or casts. So how does it work? Do you pick up a bunch of other enemies before they've even had a chance to move and make them save or lose their turn as a reaction too? That's really wonky, and I'm not sure what's intended here. RAW, it's not working; your additional targets aren't actually attacking or casting anything. It's not their turn. They don't trigger it, so how are they affected? Either I'm missing something here, or someone's dropped the ball on this one.

And finally, in the "tamer" regions, there's also one 6th-level spell, Gravity Fissure. Line spell (not cutting it), Con save (we're at level 11 at least, these are getting easier and easier to pass), damage equal to a 5th-level Cone of Cold, and yet another forced pull. At least the line can end up actually being five lines instead (which is a massive area, albeit a little hard to fully utilize), but the creatures not in the central line save for 0 rather than half damage. All in all, I'd probably upcast Gravity Sinkhole to 6th, if I wanted to pull enemies to a central point. Unless I was firing at the side of an entire army rather than at a small squad.

So what's the verdict? I'd say that Gift of Alacrity and Gravity Sinkhole are solid choices for any class, but the others are a lot more hit-or-miss. The various time effects are pretty flavorful and unique, so a prepared caster can definitely find use for all of them, and a spontaneous caster could pick up a couple depending on the game. The gravity effects, however, are very similar for the most part, and I believe they overlap; just pick Gravity Sinkhole, and you're mostly covered. The rest don't really justify themselves, especially in the face of the aforementioned spell.

[Evaar]

1. On the Blood Hunter: WOTC wasn’t comfortable with making a whole new class official. I could certainly argue it got more play testing than the Artificer did, however, it just recently got a huge overhaul (switching from WIS to INT, among many other changes) and... There just hasn’t been enough feedback. (Confirmed by Mercer himself)

I understand that, but then I would suggest that this is not the right time to publish this book. Much like if the Artificer wasn't ready to go, it would have been a weird choice to go ahead and publish the Eberron book without it.

[MilkmanDanimal]

Chronurgy gets as a second-level feature two points of Luck, essentially getting 2/3s a feat as a class feature. That is . . . a lot.

Also, in potentially related news, I just built a Wizard for a Saturday night Roll20 game and will be going Chronurgy.

[jaappleton]

Not that D&D Beyond is any sort of official ruling.

But to test, I created a 6th level Lore Bard.

I was able to pick the Dunamancy spells with Magical Secrets.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Not that D&D Beyond is any sort of official ruling.

But to test, I created a 6th level Lore Bard.

I was able to pick the Dunamancy spells with Magical Secrets.

Thing to note about Magical Secrets: It doesn't say "class spell list", it says "class". I'm pretty confident that would cover subclass specific spells, although this is a new written mechanic so whether its intentional or not is up in the air. It's definitely thematically appropriate for a Bard to pick up some Dunamancy.
And some keen minded viewers of Critical Role may remember that Scanlan's daughter Kaylie had picked up and later taught him how to use Wrist Pocket, which we now know is a Dunamancy spell. At the time it was a Cantrip.

This has also shown me that DND Beyond has a minor error for Magical Secrets, saying "two spells from any classes" instead of "two spells from any class"

[jaappleton]

Thing to note about Magical Secrets: It doesn't say "class spell list", it says "class". I'm pretty confident that would cover subclass specific spells, although this is a new written mechanic so whether its intentional or not is up in the air. It's definitely thematically appropriate for a Bard to pick up some Dunamancy.
And some keen minded viewers of Critical Role may remember that Scanlan's daughter Kaylie had picked up and later taught him how to use Wrist Pocket, which we now know is a Dunamancy spell. At the time it was a Cantrip.

This has also shown me that DND Beyond has a minor error for Magical Secrets, saying "two spells from any classes" instead of "two spells from any class"

Subclasses are part of a class. Pretty cut and dry that the Bard’s Magical Secrets feature should cover it, IMO.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Subclasses are part of a class. Pretty cut and dry that the Bard’s Magical Secrets feature should cover it, IMO.

I'm not disagreeing, just saying that as far as I know we've never had spells as a selectable option that aren't on a class spell list.

It's either an unintended consequence of the wording or some genius level future proofing.

[jaappleton]

I'm not disagreeing, just saying that as far as I know we've never had spells as a selectable option that aren't on a class spell list.

It's either an unintended consequence of the wording or some genius level future proofing.

It certainly is a strange case, for sure! Never seen anything like this before.

[Ekzanimus]

I really like the idea of Graviturgist who can move his enemies and allies on the field. And his abilities seem to synergize very well with new spells of gravity control. But... they seem really underwhelming except for the capstone even with all the synergy. Do I not understand something? How it must be played to be effective?
Adjust Density - ok, I can make somebody faster and vulnerable to grapples and shoves or slower and better in grappling. It eats my action and concentration. It is... situational at best.
Gravity Well - ok, I can move a target of my spell (only one target if I am reading it right) 5 feet. That's all. If there is no pits or other environmental hazards in the vicinity it can be used to... help somebody escape the engagement? What else?
Violent Attraction - ok, 1d10 weapon damage as a reaction on the 10th level is just not very good. 2d10 falling damage can be better with all the gravitational shenanigans of dunamancy but still.
Event Horizon - yes, I like it a lot. It IS powerful and useful. It is also capstone feature of 14th level.

[Tokuhara]

Am I the only one who thought these spells and Subclasses screamed Gith? Like these are the Githyanki/Githzerai elite mages and warriors?

Also, Graviturge really strikes me as a "creative solutions" class. By the book, they aren't too fancy, but given a little creativity, you can do some clever things. Thunder Wave + Gravity Well makes it a decent "get out of melee" ability. Violent Attraction + Booming Blade can be a good option on say a Githyanki. Even the basic ability, with DM approval, can do some clever things. It's all in application over base mechanics

[jaappleton]

Wow, this is so damn stupid... But, it is RAW...

Bards CAN NOT take these new spells.

The spells are on a SUBCLASS list. They aren't added on to the Wizard list. They are exclusively on a subclass list, not a class list.

This is... IMO, not only is this outright stupid, it is actually dangerous for the game. What if this is how they handle Psionic spells? They now, officially in 5th Edition, have spells which aren't on any class list.

[Daphne]

This is... IMO, not only is this outright stupid, it is actually dangerous for the game. What if this is how they handle Psionic spells? They now, officially in 5th Edition, have spells which aren't on any class list.

Why is it bad? It makes sense. Granted, I'm not a fan of Magical Secrets to begin with.

[jaappleton]

Why is it bad? It makes sense. Granted, I'm not a fan of Magical Secrets to begin with.

5E was build on the foundation of stripping away anything that was unnecessarily convoluted. Simple. Less is more. If it doesn't explicitly say X, you can certainly flavor it to say X. It literally states to do that in the PHB.

Now we have spells that aren't part of any class.

Not go get all gloom and doom, but this is exactly how it starts. If they handle Psionic spells this way (Which are likely just gonna be regular spells but with Psionic flair), we'll have spells usable by certain subclasses, but again, aren't part of any class. So no, magic initiate doesn't work to get the spell. Magical Secrets doesn't work to get the spells.

So now to make concepts work, you need to go down super specific subclasses just to get spells.

More hoops to jump through. Completely unnecessarily, I might add.

[Daphne]

I think it's totally fair for Psionics spells to be only available to Psionic characters. They wouldn't feel Psionic if they were just spells everyone could take, and WotC is avoiding adding new mechanics so Psionics will have to be spells.

And they could release a "Psionic Initiate" feat.

But going back to Wildemount, the book explicitly says the DM can allow these spells for non-dunomancers if they want to. I myself will probably allow these spells for any arcane spellcaster when I get the book, and I don't think the way the book handles these spells is different from how the PHB handles feats or multiclassing (which isn't a thing at my table).

[micahaphone]

I guess it makes sense to me why the new spells can't always be magical-secreted by a bard - these spells are the product of secret research to create an entire new school of magic based off the powers of a religious artifact in one country. If your bard has seen this magic in use, or spent time amongst the right circles of the Xorhas empire, or some other justification, sure, I could see a yoink, but a blanket yes seems to run counter to the design of this setting.

[jaappleton]

I guess it makes sense to me why the new spells can't always be magical-secreted by a bard - these spells are the product of secret research to create an entire new school of magic based off the powers of a religious artifact in one country. If your bard has seen this magic in use, or spent time amongst the right circles of the Xorhas empire, or some other justification, sure, I could see a yoink, but a blanket yes seems to run counter to the design of this setting.

Bards are literally seekers of forgotten lore so the knowledge can continue on.

If ANY non-subclass specific caster should be able to get them, a Bard through Magical Secrets.

If you're gonna use Lore reasons for why it should be restricted, you also have to incorporate Lore that allows it, don't you?

[PhantomSoul]

Bards are literally seekers of forgotten lore so the knowledge can continue on.

If ANY non-subclass specific caster should be able to get them, a Bard through Magical Secrets.

If you're gonna use Lore reasons for why it should be restricted, you also have to incorporate Lore that allows it, don't you?

If it's new, there's no forgotten history for the Bard to pretend to have known :P

[micahaphone]

Bards are literally seekers of forgotten lore so the knowledge can continue on.

If ANY non-subclass specific caster should be able to get them, a Bard through Magical Secrets.

If you're gonna use Lore reasons for why it should be restricted, you also have to incorporate Lore that allows it, don't you?

I don't agree, sorry. If a group of wizards have been secretly developing new magic in a deep underground lab (preferably with plenty of traps and monsters to get to the front door), a poet adventuring around in another country better have a damn good reason to even know that this school of magic exists. Like I said, if you've fought some enemies that are using this magic, made allies with some experimental wizards, really helped out the church, then sure, it makes sense to take this magic and pass it along. But I disagree with a blanket statement that a bard can always choose these spells.

[Boci]

I don't agree, sorry. If a group of wizards have been secretly developing new magic in a deep underground lab (preferably with plenty of traps and monsters to get to the front door), a poet adventuring around in another country better have a damn good reason to even know that this school of magic exists. Like I said, if you've fought some enemies that are using this magic, made allies with some experimental wizards, really helped out the church, then sure, it makes sense to take this magic and pass it along. But I disagree with a blanket statement that a bard can always choose these spells.

Yes, but that limits this magic in to being new. As you mentioned, a bard could learn this magic by working with the wizards and/or church, and once a bard learns it others could too. It limits world building and is only going to work with one thing, too many and it will strain coincidences, unless the setting includes a reason for why there are suddenly multiple, new types of magic being developed, which is another limitation.

[ProsecutorGodot]

If it's new, there's no forgotten history for the Bard to pretend to have known :P

It's not new, in fact it's really old magic.

Dunamancy is an ancient, esoteric study of magic almost unknown across Exandria. Facets of dunamancy have quietly bled into the more common applications of spellcraft like an unrealized glimpse behind the curtain of creation.
Although the Kryn Dynasty is responsible for the carefully guarded development and refining of dunamancy, the mysteries of this magical art have long since spread beyond the dynasty’s borders. The hidden secrets of harnessing dunamis eventually found their way into the hands of the Cerberus Assembly and have continued to slowly disseminate across all Wildemount as a result.

If you are considering a character pursuing a path involving the manipulation of dunamis, you can easily tie your story into the Kryn Dynasty and the ready access to dunamancy it provides. But you can also consider where else in the world dunamancy might have spread, and how its secrets have influenced your character’s path. You might have stumbled into a cabal of defecting Kryn expatriates who teach you their ways, or you might have been entrusted with learning such secrets as a means of fighting the Kryn with their own power. Work with your Dungeon Master and figure out a fun and logical way that your character and the mysterious power of dunamancy might have crossed paths.

In campaigns outside Wildemount, there is no factional control of dunamancy, so the implementation of this arcane discipline is entirely open. Talk to your Dungeon Master about how dunamancy might fit into their campaign, and how your character’s story could be woven into that lore.
It's new to the Empire. It is literally a type of magic that a Bard could dig up forgotten history about.

[micahaphone]

It's not new, in fact it's really old magic.

It's new to the Empire. It is literally a type of magic that a Bard could dig up forgotten history about.

Well, you got me there. Good points, a bard should be able to take these as magical secrets

[Chaosmancer]

Wow, this is so damn stupid... But, it is RAW...

Bards CAN NOT take these new spells.

The spells are on a SUBCLASS list. They aren't added on to the Wizard list. They are exclusively on a subclass list, not a class list.

This is... IMO, not only is this outright stupid, it is actually dangerous for the game. What if this is how they handle Psionic spells? They now, officially in 5th Edition, have spells which aren't on any class list.

This is actually how I am handling certain types of magic in my games at the moment.

You can't just find spells of blood magic, for example, just lying around your local mages guild. That stuff is heavily restricted at the best of times and forbidden lore usually.

But, my players just defeated a magical.. thing (I combined the stats of an Allip and a Nothic to make something pretty dangerous and cool) and the wizard went through their notes, and passed the save associated with not being driven insane. So, now she will gain (once we meet up again) a few blood magic spells and a few "shadow magic" spells from a 3pp resource I have.

So, I kind of like Dunomancy is the same way. Because it allows me as the DM to control the spread of the magic and use it as rewards. Maybe the Bard can't officially take it via magical secrets, but after performing a great service for the Bright Queen she allows them to learn additional spells from the Dunomancy list, beyond their normal limit.

That makes it even more special and really highlights that this is a magic unlike the normal arcane workings of the world.

Or, just say that they can uncover it and take those spells. The rules do allow that as an option.

[Chaos Jackal]

The potential release of psionics could be handled differently altogether. Instead of spells, the abilities could be labelled as "powers" or "manifestations" or "forces" or whatever, therefore putting them out of the bard's reach by justifying them as being not magic, but something entirely different.

Dunamancy spells, as written, aren't indeed a part of a spell list, so no Magical Secrets. I guess it somewhat fits with the "non-chronurgists and graviturgists should be a couple of these as a reward at the DM's discretion"; the spells, in theory, aren't available to players by default, so Magical Secrets can't be allowed to cheese access to them. At least you can still Wish for them.

But it is needlessly convoluted alright. Magical Secrets was, after all, created with the intention of giving bards access to almost all spells by virtue of their unique means of casting and studying. But as Wildemount is essentially homebrew with an "official" tag, things like that aren't given priority. It's a guy making his personal world and powers into globally approved ones. It's not gonna fit in entirely.

Things like this, the Chronurgist ability, the Temporal Shunt scaling... it was more or less bound to happen. Even standard releases have some glaring issues. One like this is even more likely to let things slip through the cracks.

[samcifer]

The potential release of psionics could be handled differently altogether. Instead of spells, the abilities could be labelled as "powers" or "manifestations" or "forces" or whatever, therefore putting them out of the bard's reach by justifying them as being not magic, but something entirely different.

Dunamancy spells, as written, aren't indeed a part of a spell list, so no Magical Secrets. I guess it somewhat fits with the "non-chronurgists and graviturgists should be a couple of these as a reward at the DM's discretion"; the spells, in theory, aren't available to players by default, so Magical Secrets can't be allowed to cheese access to them. At least you can still Wish for them.

But it is needlessly convoluted alright. Magical Secrets was, after all, created with the intention of giving bards access to almost all spells by virtue of their unique means of casting and studying. But as Wildemount is essentially homebrew with an "official" tag, things like that aren't given priority. It's a guy making his personal world and powers into globally approved ones. It's not gonna fit in entirely.

Things like this, the Chronurgist ability, the Temporal Shunt scaling... it was more or less bound to happen. Even standard releases have some glaring issues. One like this is even more likely to let things slip through the cracks.

I wish they'd bring back a toned-down version of the mystic class. Only ever got to see it played once

[Ekzanimus]

Things like this, the Chronurgist ability, the Temporal Shunt scaling... it was more or less bound to happen. Even standard releases have some glaring issues. One like this is even more likely to let things slip through the cracks.
After some brainstorming me and my friend SUPPOSEDLY understood how Temporal Shunt scaling works. It allows a caster as a reaction to banish in neverwhen not only the target of the spell but also some other people. And they are lost in time for a round - as we can see in the duration of the spell. It is potentially a one-turn banishment.

[Chaos Jackal]

That's the intent... maybe. It's still rather nonsensical. Take a reaction when someone attacks or casts in order to banish them, upcast to somehow affect a non-triggering enemy? It's the only way this works, but it's neither clear nor in line with how such spells function.

[bomei]

Well you should ask James Haeck why his book explicitly says otherwise, then.



Indeed.


James Haeck was actually wrong, he was actually corrected by Dan Dillion.

"Nothing stops them from using Arcane Abeyance on Leomund’s Tiny Hut. They still have to cast it initially, though, to freeze it in the bead. Which means normal casting time, concentrating during that time of longer than 1 action, etc." - Dan Dillion

"Oh, is that the case? I totally misread and thought that the person who used the bead had to spend the full casting time to use it. I'll make sure to share the correct interpretation from here on out." - James J. Haeck

Quotes from twitter because it's not letting me actually post the images.