OOTS #287 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

With half an hour to spare, no less.

[Dhavaer]

"Discount coupons'... heh. ;D

[Drizzt_Fanboy_74]

Woo-hoo!

Bwaha. Revenge at last!

[fithi]

Long time reader, first time poster.

"I wanna see the sailboats!" ;D Great moment.

[menkent]

great begging pose in 3rd to last panel, giant. props!

ps- for the cryptogram lovers that didn't get any haley-speak, immoleth's name is "Jack"... or Gak, depending on what dialect you speak ;)

[Kodoz]

Poor Belkar! I was hoping at the least that we would see what Shojo has to say to Roy, and it would involve Belkar and his freedom. First page! Omgooses.

[ARMOURERERIC]

I was looking at your appearance schedule and was about to post that you may be out of town or in the process of returning.

Eric

[Nightfall]

Roy was too generous. I wouldn't have stopped at "token revenge". Heh heh heh!

Great comic, Giant! I wouldn't want to get into a battle of wits with you! ;)

[scathach_QME]

Ah, Roy has found a good use for Elan.

Villians of the world, surrender, or I shall force you to hang out with the bard.

[mowander]

Okay yea, Celia is rather cute for a stick figure.

[TheJet31619]

So no more Celia? Damn

First time on the first page!

[Gunslinger47]

Elan seems to have a special relationship with most paladins. :)

[Yumejin]

As fithi said before, long time reader, first time poster.

I'm really glad that Roy had his "revenge".... Hinjo is going to suffer.... Roy must be trully happy... after all, someone's going to know what it is like to endure Elan's gibberish for even a slight minute.

First or second page, I wonder...

Later Edit: Yeay, first page!

[icelator]

All things considered I'd prefer the Bard to V as I Elan is funny and doesn't give long speaches. :P

[Arulla]

@Giant : I'm living on CST, so it's still 1.5 hour to deadline ;D

Btw, why would the Spooky wizard who lives by the coast hire attorneys with such poor records?

And oh, not quite long lurker, second posts.

[Brickwall]

Hinjo is starting to turn into a real character, which makes me happy. He is one of my favorites. Possibly because I see a bit of myself in him. I'm not sure whether it's the value of sense of humor, or the fact that I plan on having a cool beard-thing exactly like his. Okay, I don't plan on it, but it might be cool.

Anyway, a good comic as always. "Token revenge" is a fun phrase.

[Kish]

So no more Celia? Damn
Actually, she said she's in no rush to leave.

[Renmazuo]

You still had 2 1/2 hours on my deadline :P

Great comic giant. keep it up the awesome work ;D

[Casualgamer]

McAwesome~!

[drgrumpus]

So, where can I bag me some of those Sapphire Guard Discount Coupons?

[Unrepentant]

Aww man, I NEVER get first page!

Of course, they're splitting the party. That always goes well. I hate to say it, but I think I'm ready to see what the Linear Guild or Zykon and Pals are up to. After all the tension of the Miko/Belkar battle and the trial, the OoTS strips are feeling a little overly denoumont-ish.

[PhoeKun]

"Come to sunny Azure City: You'll be found innocent - eventually!"

Its actually a really good slogan. I'd visit. But poor Hinjo... he can't use his coupons.

Here's a shocker about this comic: It got me to post in the main thread, and there's no drama in the strip! First time in over a week!

Good one, Giant.

[theKOT]

Yay! That was good! Hinjo, you fool of a Took! Look at what you've awakened!

I wonder why Roy looks unstartled by the fact that Belkar has no defence.... loyalty in the heat of battle, but that's all? Someone's probably answered this while I was posting....

Hinjo, Celia and the OOTS out on the town! WOOT!

[The_Ducky_Ninja]

The lawyer panel was definately the best. The two of them always work together, and they're a combined 5-147. All 5 wins credited to Jones and all 147 losses credited to Rodriguez. Classic.

[Casualgamer]

Yay! That was good! Hinjo, you fool of a Took! Look at what you've awakened!

I wonder why Roy looks unstartled by the fact that Belkar has no defence.... loyalty in the heat of battle, but that's all? Someone's probably answered this while I was posting....

Hinjo, Celia and the OOTS out on the town! WOOT!

Not quite

theres still belkar.

[ekedolphin]

Hee, the look on Hinjo's face when he realizes what Roy has gotten him into is just great. Token revenge, indeed. But I have a feeling Roy's doing it as a friendly way of messing with Hinjo, and that in fact Roy actually likes Hinjo and thinks he's funny.

Discount coupons, hee. Not to mention Mr. Jones (apparently) crediting all his losses to Mr. Rodriguez, and giving himself credit for all five of the team's wins.

Anyhoo, the strip is further evidence that Elan (along with Belkar) is one of the True Sources of Comedy in the Universe. ;)

[theKOT]

Not quite

theres still belkar.
Well, all of the OOTS that can be trusted not to kill you in your sleep.

[Oznstuff]

And did anybody notice that "the man" has all the wins out of the lawyers? Is that a little dig at the legal system? ;)

[Hermes]

I don't know about anyone else, but Elan's dialogue in the last panel, even though partially obscured really entertained me. Especially "...ave a lollipop?" Of course Elan wants a lollipop. LOL! ;D

[Gunslinger47]

Hinjo is starting to turn into a real character, which makes me happy. He is one of my favorites. Possibly because I see a bit of myself in him. I'm not sure whether it's the value of sense of humor, or the fact that I plan on having a cool beard-thing exactly like his. Okay, I don't plan on it, but it might be cool.
I have strong opinions on paladins, but I like how Hinjo is depicted. Unlike how most paladins are played, he is charismatic and diplomatic. He's likable, empathic, fair and he knows how to laugh. He shows that a Paladin's "Stick-up-the-butt" class feature is clearly optional, somewhat like two-weapon-fighting for Rangers. :)

Observation:
Hinjo says "Hey, don't blame the city for what the Sapphire Guard did to you." This sounds like he doesn't approve of how things are being run.

[Deuce]

Revenge is a dish best served with Elan. ;D

Loved it!

[pquekadl]

Poor Hinjo :)

[The Lady Auneredra]

Elan reminds me of...me!...whenever he rambles on and on in that last panel, we just keep talking and talking (or typing and typing) and has no idea when to stop before all the other people around you get completely annoyed or ticked or...P.O.ed, etc., etc., and then they're all "Shut up!" and you're all, "...but what'd I do?" but I haven't been that way in a long, long time.
Don't you agree?

[Casualgamer]

O_o

[Jothki]

"Sweetwings"?

[Blaznak]

Eh, this one didn't do as much for me, but that's ok. Its kind of a transitional deal. I =do= like the "client brushoff" given to Belkar, however. Classic!

Later!

[Yahoo_Serious]

5-0! Yes!

(if Belkar is prosecuted by Jones and Rodriguez, he won't have much to worry about)

[Katonta]

they're a combined 5-147.

You know, that makes me wonder, if the lawyers' scores are so bad, then why is noone smart enough to figure out that they have been in 152 cases but have only won 5. Either the NPCs are really stupid (I can understand Hinjo), or Mr. Jones is hired and Mr. Rodriguez is part of a package deal.

Anyways- Great strip Giant. Made me post in the discussion thread for the first time :)

[Curunir]

I already got used with strips with a lot of plot, but I still love mit.
Lawyers are the best.

But now, question remains: What will happen to Belkra and WHY didn't Roy seem tp care about him?

[theKOT]

You know, that makes me wonder, if the lawyers' scores are so bad, then why is noone smart enough to figure out that they have been in 152 cases but have only won 5. Either the NPCs are really stupid (I can understand Hinjo), or Mr. Jones is hired and Mr. Rodriguez is part of a package deal.

Anyways- Great strip Giant. Made me post in the discussion thread for the first time :)
You forget "Mr. Jones and associate". MAybe no one knows what they are getting until they hear the dreaded stomp of a Giant Boot!!!

[Pesi]

I liked the lawyers better when they had this mysterious men-in-black thing going. Now they're starting to be more like run-o'-the-mill lawyers.


The time is now 5:08 am.

[fall_ark]

I'd guess the lawyers lose so often 'cos Mr Jones don't accept Rodrigues' ideas on most times....I mean those with the giant boot. ;D

And, did Roy let Elan go with Hinjo because he wanted some private time with Celia? ;)

[ref]

aha... Celia has principles, which is good. Belkar has no defense, and doesn't deserve one anyway.

[Ronfar]

I misread Roy's final line as "taken revenge." It's funny both ways, though. It's the "attack" of the annoying overly cheerful bard! Hilarious!

[Serina_Spellbinder]

I have strong opinions on paladins, but I like how Hinjo is depicted. Unlike how most paladins are played, he is charismatic and diplomatic. He's likable, empathic, fair and he knows how to laugh. He shows that a Paladin's "Stick-up-the-butt" class feature is clearly optional, somewhat like two-weapon-fighting for Rangers. :)

Observation:


Hinjo says "Hey, don't blame the city for what the Sapphire Guard did to you." This sounds like he doesn't approve of how things are being run.

Then it's a darn good thing he's succeeding Lord Shojo when the old geezer keels over, and not a certain whoredog with a now pathological hatred of the OOTS we could mention. :P

[Tetsusaiga]

Ahhh good ol' token revenge.
Love it.

[PhoeKun]

Then it's a darn good thing he's succeeding Lord Shojo when the old geezer keels over, and not a certain whoredog with a now pathological hatred of the OOTS we could mention. :P


But... Mr. Scruffy is a cat. ;D

Clarification: Mr. Scruffy, while clearly Lawful Good, is still feline, and thus has a pathological hatred of anyone not petting and/or feeding him unless there are truly cosmic consequences to his actions.

[Serina_Spellbinder]

Ah, Roy has found a good use for Elan.

Villians of the world, surrender, or I shall force you to hang out with the bard.

But wouldn't that change Roy's alignment? I mean, sticking someone with a vacuous, blithering bard may not qualify as much of a good act at all, lol!!

[Serina_Spellbinder]

But... Mr. Scruffy is a cat. ;D

LOL!! Good point. As I said in another thread, the thing with the cat reminds me just a little too much of Ernst Stavro Blofeld from "You Only Live Twice" for my comfort. ;D

[Flak_Razorwill]

-Wow, they're worse at lawyering than me!(Poli-sci major)

-Coupons? For where?

-Roy and Celia, sittin' in the tree...

[ElfLad]

Whoa... Roy's got a chip on his shoulder that rivals the size of Miko's stick. Never mind that their offense was technically a bad act to perpetrate against the fabric of reality, but Roy's got to take out his aggression on the guy who is trying to help.

Maybe it's just his time of month...

[Godhand]

Superb as usual Mr. Giant.

Your giving some of us ulcers for waiting to see what the kitty wanted to say to Roy. Is it a plothook? Is it a dangerous problem? Will the cat just say Meow? Oh the utter insanity of it all.

Edit: Typos are the devil.

[Jarl]

Maybe it's just his time of month...
Still dealing with the effects of the girdle, eh?

-I like the "I'll surprise you," thing.

[theKOT]

-I like the "I'll surprise you," thing.
Knowing Belkar, he has probably already twisted that into some kind of innuendo.

[Kord]

Excellent...can't wait to see the outcome of Belkar's problem!

[Jefepato]

I'm actually a bit curious about Celia's intent to stick around.

She appeared happy about not being in any rush. Which doesn't have to be an important line, of course, but offhand comments that appear that innocuous rarely are...

[xrestassuredx]

Man, more questions! We're just left hanging again...

[Tawkis]

Remember they have a better record than ANY other Lawyers.

They are after all the only ones.

[infiniteviking]

Mr Jones is MEEEEEAAAN. *snif* No, he's really MEEEAAN. Prosecution is all well and sometimes good, but that 5.0 thing is just MEAN!

Laughing at Roy's tourist slogan... and his method of revenge. And Elan is just too... Elan! Lollipop... lol.

Good comic! And I do hope Celia is around for a while yet. She's an excellent character.

[neos_dionysos]

Ohhh... I love it!
Elan - an ignorant bard let loose on an unsuspecting city "see, see, see, see, see the lovely sailboats" and everything else. If given time, he'll become famous... or the victim of a lynch mob.
And Belkar seems not too much concerned about being imprisoned again, so - let's see what comes next.
Wooooo! Dramatic action... suspense!

[archon_huskie]

Perhaps Celia will replace Belkar in the Order of the Stick. Or she will replace Miko's DM NPC spot.

[brinoch]

Awesome strip. Roy's revenge made me laugh out loud. Simply awesome.

[Cobrateen2000]

Hey, here's a thought for those out there who think Hinjo is secretly evil because of the stache. Hinjo wanted to take Roy into town, show him around, get him secretly killed! Or perhaps, the hotel would be a place where people often "disappear". Bwa ha ha!

[theKOT]

Hey, here's a thought for those out there who think Hinjo is secretly evil because of the stache. Hinjo wanted to take Roy into town, show him around, get him secretly killed! Or perhaps, the hotel would be a place where people often "disappear". Bwa ha ha!

What happens in Azure city, STAYS in Azure city.

[Krytha]

Hmph... Roy is being kind of a jerk right now... Hinjo hasn't really done anything to deserve this AND he's trying to make up for something that he wasn't ever part of in the first place... Not that Miko would ever EVER pay for the party's inn fees again...

Speaking of which, I wonder what Roy's stats are approximately... He doesn't seem to be low in any particular characteristic (Str/Dex are probably high just because - He's not dumb and has plenty of common sense, and hes not completely uncharismatic and he can take his hits... ) So whats his dump stat?

[Faryn]

Real Heroes don't need dump stats =P


Great Comic Giant =))

[Particle_Man]

They lost over 100 cases when there are not even any other LAWYERS? Eeyikes!

Great strip. I love Hinjo. THAT is a paladin worthy of the name!

[Fillbert]

Hinjo deserves getting stuck w/ Elan... Guilt by association and all......

[neos_dionysos]

Yup. Roy's only "dump stat" might be DEX, but, no...

Back to the thread:

OotS with a kind of holidays in the big city?
Mr. Scruffy should soon talk to Roy... back to Xykon and the Snarl! And, no Archon Huskie: Belkar will escape again and join the rest of the group.
But I hope it isn't the last time we've seen Celia. I really like her. ::)

[oowatie]

Also a long time reader, and a first time poster.

Of course, it's already page 5, so everything that needs to be said, has been said.

Great comic, Mr. Giant. Love your work! ;D

[team56th]

Revenge was good. But making Hinjo a victim of it? *sob* Poor Hinjo! *sob*

[Xenon]

token revenge! bwahahah!

[Pvednes]

Poor Hinjo. :(

[Winged One]

Okay, I normally hate paladins, but sticking Hinjo with Elan is just cruel. Of course, on a scale of 1 to the Snarl, it's not even a decimal point, but still, I'd think Roy would be above that.

On the other hand, the funny trumps all! ;D

[Reptile]

Knowing Belkar, he has probably already twisted that into some kind of innuendo.
I thought that was intentional--Celia's smart, and has no interest in this little creep who just called her "sweetwings," so she responds with something that sounds good, even flirtatious, initially, until he realizes what it actually means. :)


Hmph... Roy is being kind of a jerk right now... Hinjo hasn't really done anything to deserve this AND he's trying to make up for something that he wasn't ever part of in the first place...
I agree--I understand why Roy is upset, of course, but he's taking his "token revenge" on the one person they've met since their arrest who's actually been nice to them.


Elan is so childlike...it's cute. And cute things get on my nerves. :-/


(also, there is an entire "Class and Level Geekery" thread in which to discuss Roy's stats)

[neos_dionysos]

I like the sour look on V's face...

And, sorry to mention the stats - the thread is here:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1123097648 ;start=465

[mec]

They lost over 100 cases when there are not even any other LAWYERS? Eeyikes!

Hey, then I wonder who wrote Celia's law textbooks, and who is teaching her classes at school?

[phlip]

Are we so sure Roy is Good? Sicing Elan on someone would be a bit evil in my eyes... :P

I like the lawyers' scorekeeping though... 5-147? I don't think the OotS would have been as worried if they knew that figure...

Here's hoping (but not necessarily predicting) that Hinjo becomes a recurring character.

[Yahoo_Serious]

hypothesis 1: Shojo hired incompentant lawyers because he wanted the OOTS to get off (as he has plans to send them on a mission to protect the rifts).

hypothesis 2: the OOTSverse is a perfect world where the rules lawyers (almost) always lose (unless they have the backing of certain supremely evil coastal wizards, that is).

[pita]

What's Elan's full text? I guessed the end was "Can I have a lollipop" but any idiot with an oots connection can do that.

[phlip]

What's Elan's full text? I guessed the end was "Can I have a lollipop" but any idiot with an oots connection can do that.

big fountain?
"I wanna see a theater too" is too short, maybe "I really wanna see"? still too short I think

Unfortunately, my first guess was wrong, nothing from #260 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=260) seems to fit...

[metalphil]

I'd guess the lawyers lose so often 'cos Mr Jones don't accept Rodrigues' ideas on most times....I mean those with the giant boot. ;D

That giant boot is comic GOLD. Seriously, Mr. Rodriguez is quite possibly one of my top 5 characters here, what with the giant boot, the 'spooky wizard' and all.. Frankly, I want to see him more often.

Props to The Giant. Another great strip.. and with an hour and a half to spare. ;) *HIGH FIVE*

[Cirin]

Yay! That was good! Hinjo, you fool of a Took! Look at what you've awakened!

I wonder why Roy looks unstartled by the fact that Belkar has no defence.... loyalty in the heat of battle, but that's all?The way I see it, Roy was standing up for Belkar not being executed without trial or any due process by a berserk Paladin on the verge of a fall. As for Belkar recieving proper due process, and being lawfully tried for murdering a guard, that's completely different. Note that Celia also wasn't exactly lining up to defend him either. Belkar's in deep trouble, but this was something he brought entirely on himself.

I feel sorry for Hinjo. He seems to be a lot more like what I imagine a well played Paladin to be: A level head on his shoulders, a devotion to law and duty and justice, but not blind to when things aren't perfect, and lacking the "stick up the ass" class feature.

We also got an interesting bit of exposition: The Sapphire Guard is little known, even among the residents of Azure City.

He's got to put up with a senile uncle and a fanatical (and borderline psychotic) boss, and he's still a good guy.

As for Roy's revenge. He's still a basically good guy, he might have a bit of a chip on his shoulder from the whole thing, but letting somebody else deal with Elan for an afternoon is pretty mild (annoying, but not really evil, just a little mildly chaotic trickterism). For somebody who's pretty upset for being hauled halfway across the country to be tried on capitol charges and wants revenge, it's pretty minor.

Roy's a good guy, and Lawful Good (not to Paladin standards, but he's got the alignment), and a prank like this is pretty minor. Heck, for all we know SPOILER? Hinjo and Elan could get wonderfully. Hinjo seems to have a good sense of humor, and he could warm up to Elan and really get along with him, once he got to know him.

[Delgarde]

I have strong opinions on paladins, but I like how Hinjo is depicted. Unlike how most paladins are played, he is charismatic and diplomatic. He's likable, empathic, fair and he knows how to laugh. He shows that a Paladin's "Stick-up-the-butt" class feature is clearly optional, somewhat like two-weapon-fighting for Rangers. :)

Ok, so with Rangers, the choice is between two-weapon fighting and archery proficiency. For Paladins, it's between the stick and what?

Agreed, btw - Roy might be unhappy with things, but setting Elan on poor Hinjo is just petty cruelty...

[Delgarde]

We also got an interesting bit of exposition: The Sapphire Guard is little known, even among the residents of Azure City.

Yeah, that was interesting. I assumed it was fairly well known that the ruler of the city also commanded the local order of paladins, even though nobody would know the purpose of that order.

Looking at it now, the crayon strips indicated that the Guard were chosen by Soon from the greatest samurai of the Azure City. I assume then that the Guard is essentially a secrety society, it's members not known to be any different from any other samurai reporting to Shojo. Certainly, merging the rule of the city with command of the Guard would have made that secrety easier to keep.

[neos_dionysos]

a paladin is the ultimate champion of good. and thus he should know that evil cannot always be overcome with sheer force. there are even prestige classes for rogue/paladins (complete adventurer) that choose that way. so... yes, there are other options for a paladin than the "Stick up the butt" version, but maybe more difficult to play.
And Elan/Hinjo might get along, but basically: IT IS CRUEL! (for any one to be along with Elan except maybe Haley... for obvious reasons). Hinjo has a sense of humor - contrary to Miko.


oh... the sapphire guard not officialy known? that makes the lawful good defenders of reality an undergroud organization which works "besides" official law... interesting.

[battleburn]

Celia specificly said she wasn't in a hurry. I think this might mean a bit of extra time to get to know Roy. A romance might still be possible :D

[Seifer]

We might get Hinjo in the group after this... if he can survive Elan. DUN! DUN! DUUUUN!

[xrestassuredx]

Everyone keeps questioning why such bad lawyers were hired, and I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet -- but they're the best lawyers around (and the only lawyers around (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=268))....

[neos_dionysos]

I think the lawyers are just an overstretched alignment joke... but still funnny.

[Kish]

It occurs to me that being sent off with Elan just might make Hinjo more inclined to sympathize with Miko's point of view. :P

[Antina]

"Giant Boot" - Boot of A or even THE Giant? ;)
Or isn´t this worth a pun in "natural" english?

Anyway:
Loved the strip!
Back to lots of fun&pun combined with greatest character-play - as always!

Thanx Giant!!!

[U2QueenBee]

ROFL! Had to stifle audible laughter at work here. Poinging Elan ftw! :D

(Feel a little sorry that Hinjo is getting the brunt of the resentment when he's been decent to them, but still, it's only one afternoon with Elan. He'll live.)

[RBloom0566]

Roy needs to ask Celia out on a date, now that there's no lawyer/client issue to prevent it. *L*

[Holy_Knight]

Like many have said already, a very funny strip. Kudos, Giant, as always. :)

I think some people are overreacting a bit to Roy's "revenge". Sure, Elan can be tough to deal with sometimes, but if you notice, pretty much everybody really likes him. Vaarsuvius said that he values Elan's friendship, Belkar clearly likes having him around (despite wanting to kill him for XP once), Durkon called him "the heart and soul of the team", and we all know how Haley feels. Really, the only one who seems to actually get very annoyed with Elan is Roy himself. (Sure, Miko did, but compared to how she felt about the rest of the order besides Durkon, that's practically praise). At worst, Roy is playing what would be a minor prank on Hinjo, and I wouldn't be too surprised if Hinjo and Elan actually got along.

Now, speaking of Hinjo, one thing that I thought of but haven't seen anyone suggest yet is that Hinjo may have an ulterior motive. Specifically, Lord Shojo may have asked Hinjo to spend time with The Order for the purpose of either directly or indirectly influencing them to acquiesce to a request he wants to make of them (or, perhaps more precisely, a quest that he wants to give them). This would make sense in general, but also in light of Roy's response to Shojo just after the trial. He was cut off in mid-sentence by Miko and Belkar crashing through the window, but the gist of it was obvious. Noticing this, Shojo may have quickly enlisted Hinjo to help persuade the Order to cooperate.

Finally, here's my guess as to the rest of Elan's quote, based partially on what letters and words we can see, and partially on what we know of Elan's personality:

"...and the stores, and the big fancy buildings. And do you guys have a theater? I want to see a theater too. And the zoo! Can I have a lollipop?"

[Alfryd]

Very good. Hilarity factor 7.8.

With half an hour to spare, no less.
I suppose you want a cookie, then- must I remind you there are time zones a full 5 hours ahead of your own, and I have no meaningful control over my own actions?


She appeared happy about not being in any rush. Which doesn't have to be an important line, of course, but offhand comments that appear that innocuous rarely are...
Hmm... hanging around Azure City might be taken as mildly positive development... though it also adds some weight to the Roy+Celia tryst theory.

We now have positive confirmation that Jones is LE.


After all the tension of the Miko/Belkar battle and the trial, the OoTS strips are feeling a little overly denoumont-ish.
Yes, but I'm reminded of events immediately after the assassin showdown at the Inn. It took a little longer for things to wind down.

As for Belkar recieving proper due process, and being lawfully tried for murdering a guard, that's completely different.
Bingo.

...not a certain whoredog with a now pathological hatred of the OOTS we could mention.
Grumble grumble grumble...

Whoa... Roy's got a chip on his shoulder that rivals the size of Miko's stick. Never mind that their offense was technically a bad act to perpetrate against the fabric of reality, but Roy's got to take out his aggression on the guy who is trying to help.
Maybe it's just his time of month...
I concur.

[battleburn]

Very good. Hilarity factor 7.8.
I suppose you want a cookie, then- must I remind you there are time zones a full 5 hours ahead of your own, and I have no meaningful control over my own actions?

You're right. According to my watch the comic went up five thirty on tuesday morning. This way i'll never get to post on the first page *snif* :'(

[Gefangnis]

Hee hee! I love it! One of my favorites in a while.

...and a lollipop!

[Kanashimi]

Awesome. I love Elan when he gets all childishly giddy.

hee hee sapphire guard coupons. I think that one reads 6sp off. Watch the coupon's only good for wish rings.

Can't wait to see Belkar's trial!

[Nyax]

Outstanding as always Rich! I sure hope belkar can get out of this. And poor Hinjo lol.

[Seifer]

Aw, you shouldn't take comedy issues as alingment-changing. xD there is a difference betwen an obviously comedy act (like this one) and an actual serious plot-changing act.

[Kish]

Not really, no. Most of the strip is humorous. The distinction you're drawing has never existed; something that is done for humor is still something that is done.

[Seifer]

Not really, no. Most of the strip is humorous. The distinction you're drawing has never existed; something that is done for humor is still something that is done.


It's not the same an action taken on a plot-high thread than on a pure joke one. xD that's what I meant

[Karkadinn]

Not really, no. Most of the strip is humorous. The distinction you're drawing has never existed; something that is done for humor is still something that is done.

So should V be evil for magically raping a heavily-wounded foe in an exceptionally painful manner? Or is raping someone by spell not the same as doing the deed the regular way? Or is rape not evil enough to change one's alignment? Or does it simply 'not count' unless it's done to a female?
Ponder this. ;)

[motub]

Really enjoyed the strip :D.


So no more Celia? Damn
Hello... she's "in no rush to get back". Don't'cha think that maybe she's hanging around for a reason.... and Roy blew Hinjo off so that he and Celia could see the town together? In a friendly way, maybe it would go further, maybe not, but it's definitely an opening. I mean Hinjo is nice and all, and I'm sure that under other circumstances, Roy would be happy to have a boy's night out with him, but if given a choice between a fun boy's night out and a date possiblility with Celia... Roy's no fool. I hope they do get to spend some time together; they could both use a pleasant interlude with a "friend who might become more".

But speaking of Hinjo... am I the only one, other than Holy_Knight, who noticed the exposition in the "discount coupons" comment?

Hinjo mentions that he gets these coupons from his uncle. Who's his uncle??

[SPOILER] In Hinjo's previous appearance, he doesn't mention that he's related to some high-level member of the Sapphire Guard, but now, we must suspect that he's related to Lord Shinjo--

1. "Hinjo", "Shinjo". It could be coincidental, but we know he's related to somebody, and in such a fantasy world, the similarity of names is usually used to indicate family relationship (especially in the absence of family names).

2. Who would have the power to give out these coupons? In our corporate world, they would be likely literally disbursed by Accounting/Sales, but would be figuratively "backed" by the President/CEO of the company-- in this world there may or may not be an Accounting/Sales department, but there certainly is a leader who is also daft enough to make up something like discount coupons-- that can't be used, since the SG is a "secret organization" apparently (though how you keep a big ol' bunch of blue-armored knights a secret is beyond me)-- as an incentive/bonus program. Honestly, such coupons are likely to be the brainchild of Lord Shinjo/Mr. Scruffy.

Roy's revenge may be more than "token", though he doesn't realize it-- I (also) think he just screwed an attempt at "backdoor negotiations" by Lord Shinjo (since Roy won't talk to Lord Shinjo directly), through Lord Shinjo's nephew, Hinjo. Hinjo looks bemused, not only because of Elan, but because he has no way to expose his hidden agenda and it all went so wrong, when it seemed so simple. I'd be bemused, too.

[Vengeful_Hand]

While I liked it, and enjoyed it as I usually do, there were a couple of things that I do not understand.

First, that Roy isn't bothered by Belkar's inevitable execution for murder. Without a defense, he is going to die. Was all that talk about owing it to Belkar to look out for him just to sound good in prison and to antagonize Miko?

Second, that's really brave of you, Roy. Hinjo has tried to be on your side, to back you up, and to give you a fair hearing. Miko and Shojo are responsible for your troubles (actually, you are for not ditching Elan before he could bring the universe 20% of the way to total annihilation.) and you take it out on Hinjo, who won't lift a hand against you. I bet that little trick took a lot of guts. It was underhanded, mean-spirited, and petty.

Essentially, this isn't like Roy. What happened to him?

[Neopolis]

While I liked it, and enjoyed it as I usually do, there were a couple of things that I do not understand.

First, that Roy isn't bothered by Belkar's inevitable execution for murder. Without a defense, he is going to die. Was all that talk about owing it to Belkar to look out for him just to sound good in prison and to antagonize Miko?

Second, that's really brave of you, Roy. Hinjo has tried to be on your side, to back you up, and to give you a fair hearing. Miko and Shojo are responsible for your troubles (actually, you are for not ditching Elan before he could bring the universe 20% of the way to total annihilation.) and you take it out on Hinjo, who won't lift a hand against you. I bet that little underhanded trick took a lot of guts.

Essentially, this isn't like Roy. What happened to him?
Mr. Scruffy used Mind Control on him during that talk he wanted to have?

By the way, is murder punisable by death?

[Sebastian]

Hmph... Roy is being kind of a jerk right now... Hinjo hasn't really done anything to deserve this AND he's trying to make up for something that he wasn't ever part of in the first place... Not that Miko would ever EVER pay for the party's inn fees again...

Speaking of which, I wonder what Roy's stats are approximately... He doesn't seem to be low in any particular characteristic (Str/Dex are probably high just because - He's not dumb and has plenty of common sense, and hes not completely uncharismatic and he can take his hits... ) So whats his dump stat?
He is going around with Belkar and Elan willingly.
I'd say wisdom. ;)

[Supagoof]

All I know is now I want to have a lollipop too.

Elan = Hilarious.

For those getting bent out of shape over Roy's decision to "take it out on Hinjo", consider it more a joke Roy is playing, rather then him "being evil" in his intent and actions. Even a leader has to have his fun for awhile. I'm certain he will come back around when he finishes taking the "Whew, the trial is over, now I can start planning the next adventure" sigh, which is what this comic is more or less doing. Let him take a moment for himself, and for his amusement (albeit on Hinjo's behalf). I'm certain Roy will get to planning the defense for Belkar, and for gathering the group back together to go on the next quest - whatever that is. Belkar shouldn't have to worry too much anyway, since Oots was innocent, he was WRONGFULLY imprisoned in the first place. Does that make it okay to kill a guard? - depends on the laws of the lands. How many soldiers had to die to capture some of the worlds worst dictators? Does that mean all the soldiers lost in battle deaths are on the hands of those dictators? SO consider Belkar the role of the dictator in this instance, does the death of the guard fall more on Belkar or on Shojo for ordering the capture. Just my way of looking at it.

[Dragonmaster_Crono]

In Hinjo's previous appearance, he doesn't mention that he's related to some high-level member of the Sapphire Guard, but now, we must suspect that he's related to Lord Shinjo--


Er, Lord Shojo has called Hinjo his nephew and successor before, during the crayon saga. It looks like you failed your spot check. ;)

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=277

... Oh, and hello everyone. ;D

[Alfryd]

Hewwo!


Belkar shouldn't have to worry too much anyway, since Oots was innocent, he was WRONGFULLY imprisoned in the first place. Does that make it okay to kill a guard? - depends on the laws of the lands.
No. They were *detained* with full justification, not *imprisoned.* And no, killing a guard as part of your escape, assuming your escape were justifiable at all, given that the level difference would have made peaceful subdual almost trivial, is *not* justified.

[Ebon_Drake]

But speaking of Hinjo... am I the only one, other than Holy_Knight, who noticed the exposition in the "discount coupons" comment?

Hinjo mentions that he gets these coupons from his uncle. Who's his uncle??

[SPOILER] In Hinjo's previous appearance, he doesn't mention that he's related to some high-level member of the Sapphire Guard, but now, we must suspect that he's related to Lord Shinjo--

1. "Hinjo", "Shinjo". It could be coincidental, but we know he's related to somebody, and in such a fantasy world, the similarity of names is usually used to indicate family relationship (especially in the absence of family names).

2. Who would have the power to give out these coupons? In our corporate world, they would be likely literally disbursed by Accounting/Sales, but would be figuratively "backed" by the President/CEO of the company-- in this world there may or may not be an Accounting/Sales department, but there certainly is a leader who is also daft enough to make up something like discount coupons-- that can't be used, since the SG is a "secret organization" apparently (though how you keep a big ol' bunch of blue-armored knights a secret is beyond me)-- as an incentive/bonus program. Honestly, such coupons are likely to be the brainchild of Lord Shinjo/Mr. Scruffy.

The leader of the Sapphire Guard is called Lord Shojo, not Shinjo. In # 277 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=277) Lord Shojo says "...when I die, my nephew Hinjo here will be lord of the city...". Mystery solved. Really, could there be any doubt over who would issue such useless things, I can easily see Shojo saying "congratulations on defeating the mighty demon, young paladin. Here, have a coupon."

Good strip today, especially with it having so many jokes packed into it. Other, shorter webcomics would probably stretch that many gags over a full week.

EDIT: Curse you, simu-posting! :P

[Sebastian]

I like how Hinjio is more worried about defending the city than trying to justify what the Sapphire Guard did.
Very paladin-ish

[motub]

Er, Lord Shojo has called Hinjo his nephew and successor before, during the crayon saga. It looks like you failed your spot check. ;)
Indeed. And hello to you, too.

But I'm apparently not the only one who forgot that Hinjo is known to be a "crown prince"-- would Roy have been so quick to turn down an offer to "hang out" if he had remembered that this was the SG #2? Even for a "token" revenge/prank (I mean, let's face it, Elan isn't going to hurt Hinjo, and Elan does have high CHA as a bard, so even if he's so "likeable" that it's annoying, Elan is likeable. It's just a prank. After all, Hinjo could have refused and said the offer was for Roy--his friend-- rather than the whole group, or other members of the group. But that would have tipped his hand, whatever it was) and the possibility of time spent with Celia?

Man, Hinjo's really pooched it, then. This is getting quite funny, actually-- apparently whatever Lord Shojo wants is both
really important, and also really important to keep secret insofar as the leadership of the SG is going to a lot of trouble to make the meeting to reveal/discuss it seem casual/about something else.

I can't imagine what "side quest" (if it isn't in fact a main quest) would fulfill those conditions.

Is it possible that the SG 1) is aware that Xyklon isn't destroyed and 2) thinks that a member of the Order-- or the SG (??!!!) might be a spy (hence the secrecy)?

[Faryn]

Mr. Scruffy used Mind Control on him during that talk he wanted to have?




Ohhh, mystery!

DunDunDunnnn

[LoH]

For some reason, the "Giant Boot" reminded me of Super Mario Bros. 3's boot. I kept expecting Associate to jump around in the thing.

Belkar can take care of Belkar. I mean, he's escaped once already. Perhaps he'll just show up outside the city later?

And I don't honestly see Roy and Celia having a romantic relationship.

[bosssmiley]

What a *nice* guy Hinjo is. A proper, good-hearted paladin. I bet he'll even get on with Elan. :D

[U2QueenBee]

What a *nice* guy Hinjo is. A proper, good-hearted paladin. I bet he'll even get on with Elan. :D

'Course he will! Elan is Good, so no objection there, and that 18 charisma will work a treat. Elan's like a puppy: even when he's annoying, he's still fundamentally loveable. I don't think a paladin would kick a puppy. (Well, maybe Miko. But I think she has Issues.)

Getting On With People: a bard's bestest skill. ;D

[Ghull_Ka]

LMAO! Awesome comic! Good stuff from all characters!
[hr]
"So does that mean you're heading back to school right away?

"I'm in no rush. Class doesn't resume until next week."

Allow me to fill in the rest of that conversation that we didn't get to see:

Roy: "So how's about some dinner tonight?"

Celia: "Actually, sylphs don't eat; how's about we just skip dinner and get straight to the sweet lovin'?"

Awwwww yeah. :P 8) :P

[Nerd-o-rama]

I don't think a paladin would kick a puppy. (Well, maybe Miko. But I think she has Issues.)
Only if it detected as evil, it had broken a law, or she was ordered to. Even then, she would probably decapitate it rather than kick it.

Or if she thought it was a polymorphed OotSer.
Or a Barghest.

[nagora]

Hewwo!

No. They were *detained* with full justification, not *imprisoned.*

Actually, they were kidnapped and imprisoned by a foreign power operating beyond its borders using a theocratic justification to enforce secret laws on secret evidence.

[motub]

And I don't honestly see Roy and Celia having a romantic relationship.
Maybe, maybe not, but neither of them has friends (Roy is the leader, so he can only be "friendly" with his teammates up to a certain point, and Celia is in law school, so she doesn't have much time for social pursuits).

It really stood out to me that this chance to date-- in the classical sense of "social interaction with a member of the opposite sex in order to determine if you want to get to know them better and possibly pursue a deeper relationship"-- is so unique in the strip, at least lately, and the chance is so perfect (they're both nice, they like each other/get along socially/enjoy each other's company) that I really hope they at least have a few nice evenings together (surely the sylph drinks nectar or something), before they have to re-enter the "real world" of questing (Roy) and midterms (Celia).

Even if it's just a few nice, carefree evenings, leaving only pleasant memories behind. They do both deserve it.

[Freeman333]

The boot? Funny. Elan's speech? Funny. The idea of Belkar rotting in jail waiting for a defense that will never come (someone did take that Ring of Jumping off of him, right?)? Really funny.

But the funniest bit? The way Elan's legs look when he jumps. I don't know why, but those coathook lookin' stems of his when he leaps up in the air just tickle me. Not as much as his "adventure", but even so...

[Supagoof]

Actually, they were kidnapped and imprisoned by a foreign power operating beyond its borders using a theocratic justification to enforce secret laws on secret evidence.


Thank you Nagora. The Sapphire gaurd sent Miko on a crusade - justified or not again depends on the land you live in and the beliefs you have. Which for the lands of Oots, we assume to be similar to how we would rule, but since we don't live in the Giant's mind, then we can't say for certain. I'm just stating that Belkar's imprisonment has more implications than the simple he escaped, killed, and should be punished, and there are probably quite a few scenarios that would allow him to be released.

[dragon95046]

...(someone did take that Ring of Jumping off of him, right?)?

They might not have. I believe the only guard who knew about it is now a paint bucket.

[Evik]

Man Roy that seems like cruel and unusual punishment for sure! lol

[Alfryd]

Actually, they were kidnapped and imprisoned...
Arrested and detained.

...by a foreign power...
The power of the Gods is not foreign, nor is it arbitrary or undecidable in a D&D universe.

...to enforce secret laws on secret evidence.
The specific charge was weakening the fabric of the universe, and I agree that, having found Elan intended no such thing, their innocence should have been proven, end of discussion. But the general law enforcing 'not weakening the fabric of the universe' is not secret, nor was the evidence for their having destroyed the castle, which is all that was needed to warrant their arrest on suspicion of intention to commit the crime.

[Freeman333]

They might not have. I believe the only guard who knew about it is now a paint bucket.

Sigh...looks like there's about to be another opening (or fifty) in the Sapphire Guard's ranks...they really don't pay those guys enough to deal with situations like Belkar, do they.

[theKOT]

Thank you Nagora. The Sapphire gaurd sent Miko on a crusade - justified or not again depends on the land you live in and the beliefs you have. Which for the lands of Oots, we assume to be similar to how we would rule, but since we don't live in the Giant's mind, then we can't say for certain. I'm just stating that Belkar's imprisonment has more implications than the simple he escaped, killed, and should be punished, and there are probably quite a few scenarios that would allow him to be released.
The answer to this is that the Sapphire guard has been pursuing Foes/suspects far beyond its borders for a long time, and as far as we know no paladins have fallen. So what they are doing must be Lawful, otherwise their alignment would have shifted and they would have lost their powers. Tadaa! Besides, The SAPPHIRE GUARD are the ones trying him, and they believe that the OOTS's imprisonment was lawful, so it is a moot point.

[nagora]

Arrested and detained.

You say potato, I say police brutality. Let's call the whole thing off.


The power of the Gods is not foreign, nor is it arbitrary or undecidable in a D&D universe.

They were not informed that the arrest was on the authority of ALL the gods, assuming that it really was, so from Belkar's point of view there was no reason for him to assume that his capture had any legal force in the land where he was beaten into submission by the zealot agent of the aforesaid foreign power.


The specific charge was weakening the fabric of the universe, and I agree that, having found Elan intended no such thing, their innocence should have been proven, end of discussion. But the general law enforcing 'not weakening the fabric of the universe' is not secret, nor was the evidence for their having destroyed the castle, which is all that was needed to warrant their arrest on suspicion of intention to commit the crime.

(Ignoring the fact that this is all valid only from a Lawful POV anyway). I could say that I am arresting you on charges of doing bad things. We all know that there are laws against doing bad things, but most people would agree that the charge has to actually make some more specific accusations, for example when and where or how. This allows the accused some chance to assemble their defense ahead of the trial. I would also strenuously suggest that any policeman from a foreign land trying to arrest someone had better make it clear that they have some authority do to so. If not, then it is on his/her own head if someone treats it as unlawful and acts accordingly, as the whole of the OotS (not just Belkar) did when they tried to escape. Belkar was unlucky in that he actually managed to escape and in the process killed one of his kidnappers.

Just because something is lawful in one place does not mean we can assume it is elsewhere, even if both governments are LG. The fact that this is a "Gods' law" example does not matter since the OotS were not informed of the special jurisdiction Miko supposedly had. They had no reason to believe that the arrest was legal where it occured.

[Alfryd]

They were not informed that the arrest was on the authority of ALL the gods...
Nor does it need to be, as regions of popular worship do not correspond to legitimate regions of jurisdiction. Any of the Gods are entitled to enforce their will anywhere, insofar as they are entitled to enforce their will at all.

(Ignoring the fact that this is all valid only from a Lawful POV anyway).
In which case you have to establish this was strongly justified from a Good point of view, before Belkar's arrest would be unjustified.

...the charge has to actually make some more specific accusations, for example when and where or how...
Which Miko stated, once asked. Gate in Redmountain Hills, weakening fabric of reality. Hey, it seemed plausible enough at the time, and Roy agreed with the analysis.

The fact that this is a "Gods' law" example does not matter since the OotS were not informed of the special jurisdiction Miko supposedly had...
I don't seem to recall they asked. Because it was a Paladin. Dvinely empowered by the Gods to uphold the greater good. Which implies all the above.

[BurntOfferings]

All things considered I'd prefer the Bard to V as I Elan is funny and doesn't give long speaches. :P
Also, even if a bard gets really angry with you, he can't cast fireball, lightning bolt, disintegration, or Evan's spiked tentacles of forced intrusion. :o

[dragon95046]

Sigh...looks like there's about to be another opening (or fifty) in the Sapphire Guard's ranks...they really don't pay those guys enough to deal with situations like Belkar, do they.

I would say not, since part, if not all, of their pay seems to include coupons they can't really use. :P

[BurntOfferings]

Ok, so with Rangers, the choice is between two-weapon fighting and archery proficiency. For Paladins, it's between the stick and what?
Having friends, I think.

[plainsfox]

They were not informed that the arrest was on the authority of ALL the gods, assuming that it really was, so from Belkar's point of view there was no reason for him to assume that his capture had any legal force in the land where he was beaten into submission by the zealot agent of the aforesaid foreign power

Given Durkon's reaction, I would think that they thought Thor was involved as well.

*makes his first post and jumps into the deep end*

[Tariskat]

Well, I've only seen it mentioned twice now. Did they take Belkar's Ring of Jumping, or not? Did we presume he was wearing it while battling Miko earlier, in the strip of the Giant Soup Pot? If he was, he probably didn't take it off... so the guards now have it. And just a thought, but maybe Mr. Scruffy just wanted to congratulate Roy on his 'innocence', or even apologize for causing him to get the crap beat out of him (and the rest of OoTS) by Miko twice.

[nagora]

Nor does it need to be, as regions of popular worship do not correspond to legitimate regions of jurisdiction. Any of the Gods are entitled to enforce their will anywhere, insofar as they are entitled to enforce their will at all.
In which case you have to establish this was strongly justified from a Good point of view, before Belkar's arrest would be unjustified.

The Order's arrest was unjustified from the Good point of view. The only alignment served by their capture was Law. After detecting Evil and not finding any other than Roy's crown, Miko could quite happily have explained what happened and asked about the circumstances, deciding as she dealt with the Order how much to tell them about the Snarl and the importance of the gates generally.

The trial was irrelevant to the question of whether the Sapphire Guard were acting in a Good manner.


Which Miko stated, once asked. Gate in Redmountain Hills, weakening fabric of reality. Hey, it seemed plausible enough at the time, and Roy agreed with the analysis.

True; I forgot that.


I don't seem to recall they asked. Because it was a Paladin. Divinely empowered by the Gods to uphold the greater good. Which implies all the above.

The greater Lawful Good. This is a classic example of why paladins are disliked by so many people: there is an assumption that the only REAL good is LG and therefore paladins can do no wrong. Well, it's not true. The Guard's kangaroo court was wrong and resulted in the death of one guard and, had the rest of the Order encountered less overwhelming odds, may well have resulted in more. Yet absolutely nothing was achieved by it that Miko could not have on her own using her powers and some diplomacy.

[theKOT]

Nagora, if this was evil than the Sapphire gaurd couldn't be an order of paladins. They have been doing this kind of thing since they were founded, and to our knowledge, not one of them has fallen for it. It can't be chaotic or evil, because they keep doing it and it hasn't caused them to fall yet.

[nagora]

Nagora, if this was evil than the Sapphire gaurd couldn't be an order of paladins. They have been doing this kind of thing since they were founded, and to our knowledge, not one of them has fallen for it. It can't be chaotic or evil, because they keep doing it and it hasn't caused them to fall yet.


I'm not saying they're doing anything evil or chaotic. They are pursuing the aims of Good in a Lawful way: LG. I'm saying that there are other ways which might, and in this case would have been, better. LG does not either have a monopoly on Good nor a special right to have its actions go un-criticised.

The trial was pointless from the POV of Good. It wasn't evil, just a waste of time and indirectly lead to an evil act, and could have led to more. But the motivation was not evil and the Guard did not intend to cause evil or even seem to realise that evil could come of arrogantly marching up to people and hauling them off to prison for fairly inadequately explained reasons. As I said, the trial only served the purposes of Law, not Good. Good could have been served just as well in the field where Miko first encountered the Order.

Paladins never grasp that they can cause evil by being like that; they share the belief that LG is the last word on Good and any resistance to the Lawful part of their alignment is instantly interpreted as resistance to the Good part. It ain't necessarily so. Good people don't always need trials (or "steekin badges") to do the right thing, especially when they can detect evil and are talking to intelligent people (ie, Roy).

[metalphil]

But I'm apparently not the only one who forgot that Hinjo is known to be a "crown prince"-- would Roy have been so quick to turn down an offer to "hang out" if he had remembered that this was the SG #2?

I would say that Roy hasn't forgotten anything. In fact, he told "Mr. Scruffy" that he could "stick it up his..." so my guess is that he could really simply care less about anyone in Azure City right now. I would suspect that he in fact doesn't care that Hinjo is the crown prince because he's to steamed about everything that has happened so far.

[edit]: Oops, Mr. Scruffy.

[nightfire8199]

i wanna lollipop too! actually its pretty funny if you read all of elans speal...lol.

[codemartin]

one: belkar in jail
two: celia off case
three: annoying Elan
four: nice pali

all in alll excellent strip comic



Woot page 10

[tyricm]

In defense of Roy's attitude, I think you need to take a look at who raised him.

As much as they both don't want to admit it, Roy is a lot like his father. They are both good people but they are also sarcastic, biting and easily annoyed.

One of Roy's biggest issues is his lack of patience. The trial is over, he wants out. Even though Hinjo is offering a hand in friendship, Roy still sees him as the people who dragged him across the nation against his will.

I think that after Roy has a chance to relaxe and get out of the courtroom, he'll start seeing Hinjo as a friend and not a captor.

[rebellioussong]

totally amazing comic

" and a perfect 5 to 0 for me" that's great. but i assume they are leavoing too...

like i said, amazing

keep it up!
ps liniar gild maybe soon?

[Steward]

In defense of Roy's attitude, I think you need to take a look at who raised him.

As much as they both don't want to admit it, Roy is a lot like his father. They are both good people but they are also sarcastic, biting and easily annoyed.

One of Roy's biggest issues is his lack of patience. The trial is over, he wants out. Even though Hinjo is offering a hand in friendship, Roy still sees him as the people who dragged him across the nation against his will.

I think that after Roy has a chance to relaxe and get out of the courtroom, he'll start seeing Hinjo as a friend and not a captor.



Er...Roy doesn't lack patience. In fact, he has colossal patience. He hasn't stabbed Belkar and Elan to death in their sleep yet, which requires so much constraining effort that it's superhuman. Me, I think he's just tired. How long as it been since he's slept?

Besides, he did laugh at Hinjo's jokes earlier.

[Dudukain]

gotta love the giant boot...

(first post! whooo!)

[Carrion_Humanoid]

Yes, fianally. Out of that Damned room, it was boring in there. . .

[Melnor]

AMAZING comic, Giant!
I love how you randomly switch from instant surprise jokes (so crazy and in your face, you just have to laugh) to intellectual jokes! This one was not only packed with quite a few intellegent jokes within it, it continued to show the PCs' character, progress the storyline a little, AND end off with a good joke that brought a big smile to my face!

[Arkadian]

But... Mr. Scruffy is a cat. ;D

Clarification: Mr. Scruffy, while clearly Lawful Good, is still feline, and thus has a pathological hatred of anyone not petting and/or feeding him unless there are truly cosmic consequences to his actions.

historical Re-Clarification: Cats in general...more particularly, Cartoon cats, have had a Lawful Me alignment...good or evil tendencies depends on its mood swings...haven't cleaned the Holy litter box...i can see Miko with scratches hither and yon, cleaning out her boots as well as the Holy litter box. Not leaving the door open at night...Miko not getting a good nights sleep while Mr Scruffy howls outside her bedroom door until he's let out.

[Cirin]

The more I see of Hinjo, the more I think he'd make a much better foriegn "face" for Azure City and the Sapphire Guard than Miko. It seems clear he's got the higher charisma score at least :)

I'm now thinking of what it would have been like if Hinjo was sent to arrest the OotS. He would have likely still had a dramatic appearance, and identified himself, but said he was placing the OotS under arrest, and requesting them to come with him to Azure City.

Now, of course they won't go just because some guy says so, but Hinjo is the sort it strikes me who would try and explain who he is, where he's from, and that it is believed they have done something, intentionally or unintentionally, that may have damaged the fabric of the universe, and the gods have demanded they be placed on trial for this.

Hinjo could have eventually resorted to force, but I see him as one with a much larger range for using diplomacy (and probably a higher score in it too), and with Durkon and Roy there, they would have been a lot more likely to go willingly if things were explained a little more.

Yeah, he couldn't explain exactly what they did because it's a secret that he'll have to request the details for at the trial, he could at least say there is evidence, he will be able to examine the evidence and present his own, and he will recieve a fair trial to be judged by a celestial.

It's the "catch more files with honey than you do with vinegar". Of course, it wouldn't have been as amusing as a comic strip, but it is also amusing when you realize that Azure City sends it's least likable and diplomatic Sapphire Guardsman out as it's "public" face.

[metalphil]

Just re-read the whole arc up to this point. I'm thinking that they're about ready to face the camera and grin. :D

[edit]: Apparently I can't write.. :-[

[Skyserpent]

poor Hinjo...

I think you mean Ready. Ready to face the camera and grin.

[metalphil]

poor Hinjo...

I think you mean Ready. Ready to face the camera and grin.


I sure do. Thanks for the heads up. ;)

[Mattaeu]

*yawn*

this strip was alright.

wait, no. no it wasn't really.

so yeah, maybe wednesday will be better. well, anywhere from here is up. so you have that going for you. /input

[Justinian]

The more I see of Hinjo, the more I think he'd make a much better foriegn "face" for Azure City and the Sapphire Guard than Miko. It seems clear he's got the higher charisma score at least :)

I'm now thinking of what it would have been like if Hinjo was sent to arrest the OotS. He would have likely still had a dramatic appearance, and identified himself, but said he was placing the OotS under arrest, and requesting them to come with him to Azure City.

Now, of course they won't go just because some guy says so, but Hinjo is the sort it strikes me who would try and explain who he is, where he's from, and that it is believed they have done something, intentionally or unintentionally, that may have damaged the fabric of the universe, and the gods have demanded they be placed on trial for this.

Hinjo could have eventually resorted to force, but I see him as one with a much larger range for using diplomacy (and probably a higher score in it too), and with Durkon and Roy there, they would have been a lot more likely to go willingly if things were explained a little more.

Yeah, he couldn't explain exactly what they did because it's a secret that he'll have to request the details for at the trial, he could at least say there is evidence, he will be able to examine the evidence and present his own, and he will recieve a fair trial to be judged by a celestial.

It's the "catch more files with honey than you do with vinegar". Of course, it wouldn't have been as amusing as a comic strip, but it is also amusing when you realize that Azure City sends it's least likable and diplomatic Sapphire Guardsman out as it's "public" face.


THAT, or Miko is considered to be ruthless in exterminating evil and cunning enough to beat adversaries even when overpowered and outnumbered.

That's the *other* reason she's a field agent, the first reason being that her charisma comes more from looks than personality, which is to say she IS rather stuck up and vocally self-righteous to a fault, even when it is socially improper or rude.

On the other hand, Hinjo probably has more levels of Aristocrat than Paladin, as does Shojo. Unless the plot requires the sovereign (or his heir) to be particularlly martial or take an active role in a major battle, they usually have plenty of levels of Aristocrat.

[Drizzt_Fanboy_74]

The look on Hinjo's face in the last panel is hilarious. That poor, poor fool.

[aaronbourque]

The Order's arrest was unjustified from the Good point of view.
. . .

PALADINS

LAWFUL GOOD

MORE GOOD THAN LAWFUL BY THE RULES


The only alignment served by their capture was Law. After detecting Evil and not finding any other than Roy's crown,
. . .

The opposite of Evil is Good, not Law.


The greater Lawful Good. This is a classic example of why paladins are disliked by so many people: there is an assumption that the only REAL good is LG and therefore paladins can do no wrong. Well, it's not true. The Guard's kangaroo court was wrong and resulted in the death of one guard and, had the rest of the Order encountered less overwhelming odds, may well have resulted in more. Yet absolutely nothing was achieved by it that Miko could not have on her own using her powers and some diplomacy.
Aside from . . .y'know . . . officialdom.

Whatever, the sheer amoung of ignorance about Alignment is why people dislike Paladins, from both sides.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

[estradling]

The more I see of Hinjo, the more I think he'd make a much better foriegn "face" for Azure City and the Sapphire Guard than Miko.


I think he would too.... But realistically most people would be a better Face for Azure city...

In the end sending Miko wasn't about putting Azure cities best foot forward. Rich stated that when we first see Miko she says "My blades with bathe in the blood of those responsible" because they belive the Order is a Big Bad Demonic Evil. That calls for a kick butt warrior and if you have one you wouldn't mind if they died horribly so much the better... Thus Miko is the logical choice.

You definitely don't send the next in line to the throne

[nagora]

. . .

PALADINS

LAWFUL GOOD

MORE GOOD THAN LAWFUL BY THE RULES

So? I said that their arrest was unjustified from a Good point of view. I.e., they could have been dealt with in a manner which satisfied the Good part of Lawful Good without the trial. The trail was only needed to satisfy the Lawful part of the alignment.



The opposite of Evil is Good, not Law.

Yes. I've looked at this sentence and what I said and I'm beggared if I can see the connection. But you are right, Evil is the opposite of Good. Up is the opposite of down too, if that helps.


Aside from . . .y'know . . . officialdom.

Again, I can see no connection between this and what I said. What are you talking about?


Whatever, the sheer amoung of ignorance about Alignment is why people dislike Paladins, from both sides.

If you say so, frankly you've lost me :-/

[Bilbo27]

0-147, ouch what a record. 5-0 for the other, I agree, why did they hire these guys. Jackie Chiles could have done better even if he had kramer as a client again.

Not one of the best comics Giant, but I undestand the need to have filler before the major tie-ins can happen.

Btw, Belkar+sweetwings+Celias response=Priceless!

[Kord]

I hope in the next few comics we get to see Azure City...

[Kord]

I mean, as in the OOTS goes around and does stuff in Azure City.

[neos_dionysos]

Oooooo! The big city!!

I wanna see it all... please, can you show me the fountains, Hinjo? And the... blah blah blah.

How cuuuute!

[WarriorTribble]

Ah the conundrum... Giving Elan a lolly would shut him up but, the sugar would make him more hyper, and talkative.

[Hyrael]

That's the *other* reason she's a field agent, the first reason being that her charisma comes more from looks than personality, which is to say she IS rather stuck up and vocally self-righteous to a fault, even when it is socially improper or rude.
she can still have plenty of force of personality, its not just from her looks. charisma also represents zeal and passion. all the charisma in the world cant turn "I will smite you, evildoer" into a sucessful diplomacy check.

[lunar]

This strip sucked. Don't take this too rough, the only reason that I even bother to post that this one sucked is because the rest are soooo good. Anyway, I remember a time when you could do brief but entertaining transitions. Like 122 http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=122
for example. But lately things have started to drag. Of course the suckiness is only accentuated by how totally awesome 284 and 285 were... Well anyway, I hope things get better. We all know you are capable of better writing.

[theKOT]

This strip sucked. Don't take this too rough, the only reason that I even bother to post that this one sucked is because the rest are soooo good. Anyway, I remember a time when you could do brief but entertaining transitions. Like 122 http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=122
for example. But lately things have started to drag. Of course the suckiness is only accentuated by how totally awesome 284 and 285 were... Well anyway, I hope things get better. We all know you are capable of better writing.
Don't assume that everyone thinks that this was bad writing. I liked this one alot better than 286. Not that you have to like it, but it is all just opinion anyway.
Edit: 286, not 285.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Whats with all the negativity of late? I thought today's was great, and particularly snickered at 'sweetwings' comment and Roy's reaction.

#285 is actually the one I didn't get much out of. Way too anticlimatic. But this one was fine.

[ElfLad]

Yeah, I loved this strip too.

[aaronbourque]

I said that their arrest was unjustified from a Good point of view. I.e., they could have been dealt with in a manner which satisfied the Good part of Lawful Good without the trial. The trail was only needed to satisfy the Lawful part of the alignment.
. . .

In what way does it fail to satisfy Good?

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

[The_Weirdo]

The more I see of Hinjo, the more I think he'd make a much better foriegn "face" for Azure City and the Sapphire Guard than Miko. It seems clear he's got the higher charisma score at least :)

I'm now thinking of what it would have been like if Hinjo was sent to arrest the OotS. He would have likely still had a dramatic appearance, and identified himself, but said he was placing the OotS under arrest, and requesting them to come with him to Azure City.

Now, of course they won't go just because some guy says so, but Hinjo is the sort it strikes me who would try and explain who he is, where he's from, and that it is believed they have done something, intentionally or unintentionally, that may have damaged the fabric of the universe, and the gods have demanded they be placed on trial for this.

Hinjo could have eventually resorted to force, but I see him as one with a much larger range for using diplomacy (and probably a higher score in it too), and with Durkon and Roy there, they would have been a lot more likely to go willingly if things were explained a little more.

Yeah, he couldn't explain exactly what they did because it's a secret that he'll have to request the details for at the trial, he could at least say there is evidence, he will be able to examine the evidence and present his own, and he will recieve a fair trial to be judged by a celestial.

It's the "catch more files with honey than you do with vinegar". Of course, it wouldn't have been as amusing as a comic strip, but it is also amusing when you realize that Azure City sends it's least likable and diplomatic Sapphire Guardsman out as it's "public" face.

That's because Hinjo is ACTUAL LG. I mean, I am CN and I'd be friends with him. He respects people, won't boss people around, and is the kind of guy that, within his duty, would gladly enter an inn filled with people and order a round for everybody. Just for the fun of it. He's the guy that would "agree to disagree" with CG, or even CN, characters, as long as they didn't break any laws (Because being Chaotic is more than just disrespecting the law. I never did anything illegal, but do many chaotic things). Miko would/will rationalize CG, NG or even LG as evil whenever it suits her needs. If Miko deepened my dislike for Lawful characters (that I had before ever reading OOTS), Hinjo and Celia elliminated said dislike. I's even go under his custody. Why? Because he'd present actual reasons for me to go, and even offer evidence. As opposed to "Wanna die here or in my town?" Miko. :p

[theKOT]

I's even go under his custody. Why? Because he'd present actual reasons for me to go, and even offer evidence. As opposed to "Wanna die here or in my town?" Miko. :p
Miko gave reasons, and presented evidence. She told them about the diviners and what they were charged with. True, she attacked before presenting this evidence, but Roy registered evil and the people she had met all had horor stories about people fitting their description. Most people would do the same thing.
[Spoiler]
That said, how does anyone really know if Hinjo is LG. He looks like a paladin, but he has used no paladin magic and hasn't really done anything LG. He is affable sure, but what does that really say? Evil people can be affable too! Dun dun dunnn!

[Reptile]

That's the *other* reason she's a field agent, the first reason being that her charisma comes more from looks than personality, which is to say she IS rather stuck up and vocally self-righteous to a fault, even when it is socially improper or rude.
I'm with Hyrael here. Not that this hasn't been repeatedly beaten to death discussed in other threads, but even though Charisma often translates into likability, that's not necessarily the case, and just because Miko isn't very likable doesn't mean her Charisma comes only from her looks.

From the SRD (http://d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#charismaCha): "Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting." (emphasis added)

Does Miko have strength of personality? Absolutely. Tons of it. In fact, she has all of the above factors to a large extent, with the possible exception of personal magnetism (and even that is arguable, since even though it's usually used in the positive sense, it can also mean simply the capacity to influence others).

[Jarl]

I'm now thinking of what it would have been like if Hinjo was sent to arrest the OotS.
He'd hit on Roy. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?action=display;board=comics;num=1140460731 ;start=75#80)

-Or not.

[Shatteredtower]

. . .

In what way does it fail to satisfy Good?

Actually, it is an appeasement of Law. What Nagora is failing to take under consideration is that if Miko had instead been a Neutral Good or Chaotic Good Ranger/Rogue serving anything but a Lawful Good force, she'd have been able to slaughter the OotS upon encountering them, with no need to provide them with justification.

After all, it's not like she didn't go to reasonable lengths to determine who she'd be facing. She could hardly be blamed for not getting her facts straight. She'd even have been able to maintain a good alignment after the fact.

I don't think it would have made for quite so entertaining a read, however. ;)

[Methuselah_Amakiir]

LOL, that's what you get, paladins. Elan. Hopefully Elan doesn't irritate Hinjo so much that Hinjo ditches him in the middle of Azure City. Elan running amok with all those young Japanese (or Asian-looking) girls is a scary thought.

[nagora]

. . .

In what way does it fail to satisfy Good?

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque


Good would have been satisfied by Miko simply determining that the Order were not evil and therefore not attempting to undermine the stability of the universe. She could then have decided whether to tell them what was going on or not. The trial did nothing that a diplomatic, NG/CG Miko could not have done herself. Therefore, the trial did nothing in itself spcifically for the cause of Good; it was a sop to Law. And like all sops to Law for Law's sake, it caused more trouble and resentment amongst those who would otherwise be the Guard's allies than it was worth. And someone got killed.

A NG/CG Miko could have slaughtered the Order, as someone else has said, but then so could Miko when she thought Roy was evil. Diplomacy won out then; diplomacy was in fact all that was needed.

[Alfryd]

Good would have been satisfied by Miko simply determining that the Order were not evil and therefore not attempting to undermine the stability of the universe...
Not being Evil doesn't neccesarily mean that they weren't trying to undermine the fabric of universe (perhaps unknowingly,) and there were certain conveniences such as the chair of truth and witness testimony available at the trial to settle the matter more decisively.

And like all sops to Law for Law's sake...
There is no other form of Law. The whole point to the institution is that it can't be waived whenever convenient.

[Shatteredtower]

Diplomacy won out then; diplomacy was in fact all that was needed.

But as far as could reasonably be determined, a good slaughtering would also have sufficed for a Miko of NG or CG alignment. It required an LG Miko to take things to the level of offering due process. ;)

[Lasombra]

LOL, that's what you get, paladins. Elan. Hopefully Elan doesn't irritate Hinjo so much that Hinjo ditches him in the middle of Azure City. Elan running amok with all those young Japanese (or Asian-looking) girls is a scary thought.

true, half of the next generation in azure city would be blond and have a tendancy to sing. :P

[Deuce]

That's because Hinjo is ACTUAL LG. I mean, I am CN and I'd be friends with him. He respects people, won't boss people around, and is the kind of guy that, within his duty, would gladly enter an inn filled with people and order a round for everybody. Just for the fun of it. . .

You could be reading a lot into very little actual dialog and action on Hinjo's part. He may be just as devoted to both Law and Good as Miko, but has learned a few things about how to handle people without smiting them. Hmmm, maybe he has a good Charisma score and a few ranks in Diplomacy. We've yet to see what he does if the "Good Cop" fails to get the desired result - I'm guessing he can still open a pretty good can of whoop on those who continue to oppose Lawful Good objectives despite his attempts to sway them with less physical means.

[The_Weirdo]

Miko gave reasons, and presented evidence. She told them about the diviners and what they were charged with. True, she attacked before presenting this evidence, but Roy registered evil and the people she had met all had horor stories about people fitting their description. Most people would do the same thing.
[Spoiler]
That said, how does anyone really know if Hinjo is LG. He looks like a paladin, but he has used no paladin magic and hasn't really done anything LG. He is affable sure, but what does that really say? Evil people can be affable too! Dun dun dunnn!


It's not only about the first encounter. Even if it were, Hinjo wouldn't go about it the same way as Miko did. Even assuming he'd attack first, he'd APOLOGIZE ABOUT IT, unlike what Miko did (she only thanked Durkan, didn't say a word to Roy after passing a sword through his chest). He'd not order people to play to HIS alignment. He'd not call V "elf", he'd either call him "V", Varsuuvius, or even "mage", which isn't a racial thing. Assuming he DID call him "mage", he'd then apologize and ask V's name, explaining that he didn't know it during the fight. He'd care enough to learn their names. He'd not even propose that they should lie down in the mud with an inn nearby. He'd not rub salt in wounds simply because Haley's supposed greed (which was harming none) caused her to suffer much after the loss of a treasure. He'd not yell at a guy to know who ripped the mattress tag (even because it's not an actual crime, read up on mattresses on Wikipedia). He'd not put Belkar in a box unless Belkar did something criminal that he KNEW ABOUT, and didn't only suspect. He'd not act as if he was the only thing honorable in the world and the OOTS were a group of - Miko's words, BEFORE the trial - honorless dogs. In Miko's culture, calling someone a honorless dog is reason for murder. Yet, she didn't apologize to them AFTER they were found innocent, and likely never will. Hinjo apologized in the name of the Sapphire Guard, for something HE wasn't personally responsible for. Assuming Miko had enough of an intellect to keep Belkar WITH the OOTS, she'd not only get all sanctimonious about how they should have been found guilty, she'd NOT APOLOGIZE for something that, in her culture, is a matter of life and death. Frankly, the pro-Miko people claim we're defending a psychopath when we said we wanted Belkar to win, but Miko doesn't show any stability either, and her actions indicate a perversion. Perverse people will rationalize ANYTHING as being fair, simply because it's their doing. And Miko did just that. I don't deny that Belkar is a psychopath - he shows all symptoms - but I DO say that Miko has a perversion, because, guess what, she ALSO shows all symptoms. Hinjo is ACTUALLY Lawful Good. If Miko saw ANYONE other than herself calling a random group of people "honorless dogs", she'd throw a hissy fit and try to shish-kabob said person. But SHE did so, so it's okay. Hinjo is a LG character without a perversion. Miko DECIDED she's LG and HAS a perversion. For that matter, alignment-wise, perverse people are Chaotic Evil. Even perverse people that - grudgingly - work "within the bounds" of LG.

[The_Weirdo]

You could be reading a lot into very little actual dialog and action on Hinjo's part. He may be just as devoted to both Law and Good as Miko, but has learned a few things about how to handle people without smiting them. Hmmm, maybe he has a good Charisma score and a few ranks in Diplomacy. We've yet to see what he does if the "Good Cop" fails to get the desired result - I'm guessing he can still open a pretty good can of whoop on those who continue to oppose Lawful Good objectives despite his attempts to sway them with less physical means.


You see, Hinjo wouldn't try to force people into - during a fight that they WEREN'T obligated to join - doing what he orders. Hinjo would take them to the SG to be judged, and that's that. Hinjo would not make a mockery of LG alignment by behaving the way Miko did after the inn exploded.

[Alfryd]

It must be said that most of the above criticisms of Miko are more or less valid. But to claim at the same time that she is not LG is claiming that her lacking the right words outweighs her performing the right actions.

There is no evidence that people in Miko's culture actually take fatal offense at verbal insults to the degree you have suggested.


Perverse people will rationalize ANYTHING as being fair, simply because it's their doing. And Miko did just that.
She did admit to flaws in her intelligence gathering, and I do get the feeling that "No, it's a class feature," was some sort of tacit admission of fault. Overall, however, your are probably correct to at least some extent.


You see, Hinjo wouldn't try to force people into - during a fight that they WEREN'T obligated to join - doing what he orders...
It can very plausibly be argued that no amount of hurt feelings on the part of the OotS would outweigh preserving the physical welfare of the otherwise defenceless human beings threatened by the bandits. But you seem to have trouble with keeping these issues in proportion. Miko didn't actually issue orders by fiat until the last moment, up 'til then, Roy was with her all the way.

[Deuce]

You see, Hinjo wouldn't try to force people into - during a fight that they WEREN'T obligated to join - doing what he orders. Hinjo would take them to the SG to be judged, and that's that. Hinjo would not make a mockery of LG alignment by behaving the way Miko did after the inn exploded.

Still all feels like speculation (I know, most of what's on these boards is). This all kind of reminds me of people talking about someone after a first date (and a blind date at that), what you think you know about them is based on very little info - gleaned from them while they were (hopfully) trying to make a good impression on you. Hinjo seems likeable enough, and hopefully we'll get to know him better. Actually, a lot of the "Hinjo would" or "Hinjo would never" statements seem to be driven more by what another character they don't like (usually Miko) has done, that they don't agree with.

[The_Weirdo]

It can very plausibly be argued that no amount of hurt feelings on the part of the OotS would outweigh preserving the physical welfare of the otherwise defenceless human beings threatened by the bandits.

The human beings weren't there. Even if they were, she could have apologize for being tactless AFTER the fight. She didn't.

[The_Weirdo]

Still all feels like speculation (I know, most of what's on these boards is). This all kind of reminds me of people talking about someone after a first date (and a blind date at that), what you think you know about them is based on very little info - gleaned from them while they were (hopfully) trying to make a good impression on you. Hinjo seems likeable enough, and hopefully we'll get to know him better. Actually, a lot of the "Hinjo would" or "Hinjo would never" statements seem to be driven more by what another character they don't like (usually Miko) has done, that they don't agree with.

I'm considering that even Hinjo didn't care for her methods. But, okay, replace "Hinjo" with "true LG".

[Alfryd]

The human beings weren't there. Even if they were, she could have apologize for being tactless AFTER the fight. She didn't.
I have already addressed the issue of rudeness, I simply believe that this is of small significance compared to the credit due for going after the bandits in the first place. Are you saying the dirt farmers were an elaborate hoiax, or something?

[The_Weirdo]

I have already addressed the issue of rudeness, I simply believe that this is of small significance compared to the credit due for going after the bandits in the first place. Are you saying the dirt farmers were an elaborate hoiax, or something?

No, no - She could have gone at it all she wanted, for herself. She could even ask "who's with me" or even force them to accompany her. But not FIGHT. She was their official escort (I can't remember the name), not their commander.

[zimri]

He'd not put Belkar in a box unless Belkar did something criminal that he KNEW ABOUT, and didn't only suspect.

Oh come on. I think Miko is horrible and should be stripped but not now it wouldn't be funny or a haha gotcha from Belkar now so I'll wait until the plot calls for it if it ever does.

However the solitary confinement that was JUST FUNNY. Belkar ASKED for it. In the inn he stated very practical and reasonable err reasons for wanting a room by himself. Her remembering and using that against him later was exactly what Belkar said it was .... cute.

[The_Weirdo]

Oh come on. I think Miko is horrible and should be stripped but not now it wouldn't be funny or a haha gotcha from Belkar now so I'll wait until the plot calls for it if it ever does.

However the solitary confinement that was JUST FUNNY. Belkar ASKED for it. In the inn he stated very practical and reasonable err reasons for wanting a room by himself. Her remembering and using that against him later was exactly what Belkar said it was .... cute.


Maybe so, but Lawfuls don't do this kind of thing. LGs even less.

Gotta go now, lightning here. See ya all.

[Freeman333]

You say potato, I say police brutality. Let's call the whole thing off.




I swear to GOD, this situation arises every damn time I go into the produce section. What is the DEAL, people?

[themunck]

Miko gave reasons, and presented evidence. She told them about the diviners and what they were charged with. True, she attacked before presenting this evidence, but Roy registered evil and the people she had met all had horor stories about people fitting their description. Most people would do the same thing.
[Spoiler]
That said, how does anyone really know if Hinjo is LG. He looks like a paladin, but he has used no paladin magic and hasn't really done anything LG. He is affable sure, but what does that really say? Evil people can be affable too! Dun dun dunnn!

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=265 panel 1

[zimri]

Maybe so, but Lawfuls don't do this kind of thing. LGs even less.

Gotta go now, lightning here. See ya all.

First off I can't believe I am defending Miko

Secondly please tell me how abiding by your prisoners reasonable request for solitude so as to save him from the extreme emotional distress he said he would suffer at being forced to room with his party is anything but both lawful and good. :D

Edit was wrong about the kind of distress so I fixxed it.

[motub]

please tell me how abiding by your prisoners reasonable request for solitude so as to save him from udue mental stress he said he would suffer at being forced to room with his party is anything but both lawful and good. :D

Hot spiggety, you're right!! Wow.

I've just learned a whole lot about the LG alignment, just by realizing that you're absolutely right.

That was a lawful good action on her part. But we also "know" that she was motivated to this completely legal action by vengeful spite for Belkar's previous (Evil) use of her requirement to fulfill her Lawful obligation to maintain the prisoners in reasonable comfort (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=225) against her.

So now I get it that you can perform LG actions for non-LG reasons, and still be LG. But Belkar clearly understood what a tricky path that is to tread (because if your actions are for non LG reasons, those actions stand a good chance of becoming non-LG themselves one day, without you realizing it until its too late).

Huh.

[zimri]

Hot spiggety, you're right!! Wow.

I've just learned a whole lot about the LG alignment, just by realizing that you're absolutely right.

That was a lawful good action on her part. But we also "know" that she was motivated to this completely legal action by vengeful spite for Belkar's previous (Evil) use of her requirement to fulfill her Lawful obligation to maintain the prisoners in reasonable comfort (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=225) against her.

So now I get it that you can perform LG actions for non-LG reasons, and still be LG. But Belkar clearly understood what a tricky path that is to tread (because if your actions are for non LG reasons, those actions stand a good chance of becoming non-LG themselves one day, without you realizing it until its too late).

Huh.

See now locking him in solitary "because he asked for it" when in likelyhood he wouldn't be spending more than a day or two in there. Is cute, kinda sarcastic, and witty while not really endangering any kind of anything.

Smiting him when he is clearly defeated, unarmed, seemingly defenceless and in the audience chamber to which you were ordered to escort him, because he has pushed your buttons and aggravated you to all ends is clearly different.

I'm sorry you can't see the difference between pranking/having some fun, and killing someone.

[The_Weirdo]

See now locking him in solitary "because he asked for it" when in likelyhood he wouldn't be spending more than a day or two in there. Is cute, kinda sarcastic, and witty while not really endangering any kind of anything.

Smiting him when he is clearly defeated, unarmed, seemingly defenceless and in the audience chamber to which you were ordered to escort him, because he has pushed your buttons and aggravated you to all ends is clearly different.

I'm sorry you can't see the difference between pranking/having some fun, and killing someone.


I do can see the difference. Let's assume, then, that what she did was LG (if for CE reasons). Doesn't account, anyways, for all the rest. And wasn't smart at all, leaving a psychopath unattended by the only people that can control him...

[motub]

I'm sorry you can't see the difference between pranking/having some fun, and killing someone.

it's only a difference in degree, and that's the problem.

Pranking is "innocently" causing someone discomfort or pain (emotional or physical), and finding that "funny". We "all" agree that that's OK/"just for fun"/etc, but it is in fact not a "nice" thing to do (evidenced by the fact that some sensitive people have certainly been traumatized by extended pranking perpetrated against them, and pranks have been known to go wrong and people get injured or killed).

I think what Belkar, being Evil, realized is that Miko, although she performed her duties in adherence to her LG alignment, emotionally had a big streak of emotions-that-lead-to-evil in her heart (vengefulness, spitefulness) which she did not have under adequate control. Hence, she could be pushed beyond that control into evil actions, which he attempted, and probably would have succeeded in if external controls had not been exerted against Miko.

In some ways, he might have been on the right track (for the "wrong" reasons, since he's Evil). Of course, Paladins are only human, and must have "evil" emotions/temptations. But the entire idea of being a Knight, Paladin, Priest, Monk, etc is that the calling provides the discipline to stand against your own baser instincts.

If Miko didn't have such discipline, she in fact would not deserve to remain a Paladin.

I really hope she's using her "time out" to do some serious meditation and prayer.

[The_Weirdo]

it's only a difference in degree, and that's the problem.

Pranking is "innocently" causing someone discomfort or pain (emotional or physical), and finding that "funny". We "all" agree that that's OK/"just for fun"/etc, but it is in fact not a "nice" thing to do (evidenced by the fact that some sensitive people have certainly been traumatized by extended pranking perpetrated against them, and pranks have been known to go wrong and people get injured or killed).

I think what Belkar, being Evil, realized is that Miko, although she performed her duties in adherence to her LG alignment, emotionally had a big streak of emotions-that-lead-to-evil in her heart (vengefulness, spitefulness) which she did not have under adequate control. Hence, she could be pushed beyond that control into evil actions, which he attempted, and probably would have succeeded in if external controls had not been exerted against Miko.

In some ways, he might have been on the right track (for the "wrong" reasons, since he's Evil). Of course, Paladins are only human, and must have "evil" emotions/temptations. But the entire idea of being a Knight, Paladin, Priest, Monk, etc is that the calling provides the discipline to stand against your own baser instincts.

If Miko didn't have such discipline, she in fact would not deserve to remain a Paladin.

Agree with everything.


I really hope she's using her "time out" to do some serious meditation and prayer.

Doubt it.

[theKOT]

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=265 panel 1
No proof. Miko's got the wool pulled over her eyes too!!!
CONSPIRACY!!!!



I do can see the difference. Let's assume, then, that what she did was LG (if for CE reasons). Doesn't account, anyways, for all the rest. And wasn't smart at all, leaving a psychopath unattended by the only people that can control him...
This is so far off the mark. They can't control him very well. Remember the tents at the bandit camp? The abandonment of the spellcasters? There are many other instances where Belkar got away with stuff under the OOTS's watch.

I don't think putting Belkar in solitary is CE. They weren't there for more than a day and perhaps she thought it would be harder for Belkar to escape in the pit. Additionally, Miko doesn't seem to grasp sarcasm very well, so maybe she thought Belkar actually WOULD be in emotional duress.

As for your "Actual LG", I think you are confusing affable LG with Actual LG. Miko is LG. Maybe not good, but Good.

Edit: Good job Motub.

[The_Weirdo]

No proof. Miko's got the wool pulled over her eyes too!!!
CONSPIRACY!!!!
This is so far off the mark. They can't control him very well. Remember the tents at the bandit camp? The abandonment of the spellcasters? There are many other instances where Belkar got away with stuff under the OOTS's watch.

I don't think putting Belkar in solitary is CE. They weren't there for more than a day and perhaps she thought it would be harder for Belkar to escape in the pit. Additionally, Miko doesn't seem to grasp sarcasm very well, so maybe she thought Belkar actually WOULD be in emotional duress.

As for your "Actual LG", I think you are confusing affable LG with Actual LG. Miko is LG. Maybe not good, but Good.

Edit: Good job Motub.

My point is that her REASONS were CE. And if she can't understand sarcasm, she doesn't have enough WIS to be a Paladin. As for your other points, LG people don't attack others on sight. Presumed innocence. Why did she WAIT FOR THE OGRES TO EAT before attacking them but, in the OOTS case, said 2 words, attacked them, and didn't even apologize to Roy for the attack?

[zimri]

My point is that her REASONS were CE. And if she can't understand sarcasm, she doesn't have enough WIS to be a Paladin.

Wait so now paladins can't even perform little pranks to break the tension and vent off some steam. Geeze and I thought I was tough on them. The putting him in solitary for those reasons was my one big "go Miko you may be human (oid) after all" moment

[The_Weirdo]

Wait so now paladins can't even perform little pranks to break the tension and vent off some steam. Geeze and I thought I was tough on them. The putting him in solitary for those reasons was my one big "go Miko you may be human (oid) after all" moment

::)
My point being that it wasn't Lawful. But okay, let's assume it's a matter of opinion. Regardless, how about all the OTHER points?

[theKOT]

My point is that her REASONS were CE. And if she can't understand sarcasm, she doesn't have enough WIS to be a Paladin. As for your other points, LG people don't attack others on sight. Presumed innocence. Why did she WAIT FOR THE OGRES TO EAT before attacking them but, in the OOTS case, said 2 words, attacked them, and didn't even apologize to Roy for the attack?
Because the OOTS WAS ALREADY READY!!! THEY WEREN'T EATING!!! Caps are fun, no? ;)
Anyway, because the OOTS was awake and ready. None of them were seperated from their weapons. Duel-wise, both sides were equipped and awake while the OOTS had their full force gathered. Also, I know you were exagerrating, but Miko said a full sentence, let them respond(if only partially), then attacked.

On the reasons thing, is WIS really directly related to being able to understand sarcasm? Her comments tend towards obliviousness(bump uglies, cold in the northern climates) and I could see her doing it out of simply misunderstanding. Who knows? She could be as bad as you make her out to be, or she could not. Only the author knows for sure. She's cracked now. I think she would have fallen for killing Belkar and I think she is really hurt by Roy's recent snubs.

[The_Weirdo]

Because the OOTS WAS ALREADY READY!!! THEY WEREN'T EATING!!! Caps are fun, no? ;)
Anyway, because the OOTS was awake and ready. None of them were seperated from their weapons. Duel-wise, both sides were equipped and awake while the OOTS had their full force gathered. Also, I know you were exagerrating, but Miko said a full sentence, let them respond(if only partially), then attacked.

If you read my posts, you'll notice that the caps are for reinforcement, not for screaming in most cases. :P
Miko could have let the ogres get their weapons, but letting them eat shows that her priorities aren't all that right. Even assuming she's "only" tactless, she should have apologized for attacking Roy the way she did after finding out that he wasn't evil. LG people acknowledge their mistakes.

[Wrecan]

All your points are addressed in the FRC.

To wit: LG does not mean "nice". Nobody is saying Miko is a nice person.

To wit: Modern concepts of law and justice, such as "presumed innocence" has no place in a discussion of D&D alignments.

To wit: LG people are allowed to be flawed as long as those flaws don't cause them to commit chaotic or evil acts. Failing to admit one's tactlessness is neither chaotice nor evil. It's simply not nice (see first point).

[Wrecan]

letting them eat shows that her priorities aren't all that right.

What priorities are those? As far as I can tell, she was lulling the ogres into a false sense of security. And it worked.

[theKOT]

If you read my posts, you'll notice that the caps are for reinforcement, not for screaming in most cases. :P
Miko could have let the ogres get their weapons, but letting them eat shows that her priorities aren't all that right. Even assuming she's "only" tactless, she should have apologized for attacking Roy the way she did after finding out that he wasn't evil. LG people acknowledge their mistakes.
See, that is an assumption on LG that the Giant obviously(because he hasn't made Miko fall yet) doesn't share. I know you weren't screaming, I just was trying to mess with you. I do the same thing.

The Paladin code is what made Miko do what she did, and the Giant has said before that Miko was exagerrated for the sake of humor... here:

Wait, Alfryd, you forgot people who claim she should have Fallen for the mattress tag joke, because, you know, other characters are allowed to randomly overreact for the sake of humor, but not her.

[The_Weirdo]

See, that is an assumption on LG that the Giant obviously(because he hasn't made Miko fall yet) doesn't share. I know you weren't screaming, I just was trying to mess with you. I do the same thing.

The Paladin code is what made Miko do what she did, and the Giant has said before that Miko was exagerrated for the sake of humor...


My point is exactly that the character bends (and wields) the Paladin code as a rationalization crutch... Sure it's all "within her code", but Miko is one of the first people ever that, within LG, are LE...

[theKOT]

My point is exactly that the character bends (and wields) the Paladin code as a rationalization crutch... Sure it's all "within her code", but Miko is one of the first people ever that, within LG, are LE...
When has Miko used the Paladin code as an excuse to do something? I meant that because of the paladin code, she awakened the ogres. My point with the Giant's quote is her letting them eat was exagerration for humors sake, probably.

[motub]

To wit: LG does not mean "nice".
That's true (or at least I am happy to accept it as valid), but there's a big difference between not "nice" (meaning actively presenting yourself as pleasant, affable, likeable in a social sense in order to manage interactions by engendering positive feelings in the other person(s)) and being "mean" (meaning deriving pleasure from actively lowering other's self-esteem/self-worth and increasing your own impression of power by so doing).

Sure, LG individuals are not perfect. They may be socially inept, "tactless" (meaning directly honest rather than "sugar-coating" a situation to spare someone's feelings-- "Yes, those pants do make your butt look big."), not as intelligent as one might hope so that nuances of conversation with those more intelligent go over their heads, over-zealous/"nitpicky", too attentive to detail.... sure.

But when all is said and done, even after you've acknowledged all these flaws, you should be able to say "But s/he's a good guy/girl". Just like you know that even though Elan is annoying and "dim" in some (many) respects, you can't help but see he's completely innocent of all evil intent and is just trying to help, even when he fails miserably. If you had to sum him up you'd say, "He doesn't have a mean bone in his body."

But Miko definitely does have, and more than one. And while I am willing to theorize that it is possible to be "mean" and "good" at the same time, it is not so easy or common that I'd think that Miko is one of the favored few that can pull it off.

[The_Weirdo]

When has Miko used the Paladin code as an excuse to do something? I meant that because of the paladin code, she awakened the ogres. My point with the Giant's quote is her letting them eat was exagerration for humors sake, probably.

She used her paladinhood as an excuse to order prisoners (not subordinates) around on battle; She used it as an excuse to act as if she was holier-than-thou in strip #250; She used it as an excuse to attack the OOTS since they "sided with Evil". These are the examples I can remember.

[theKOT]

That's true (or at least I am happy to accept it as valid), but there's a big difference between not "nice" (meaning actively presenting yourself as pleasant, affable, likeable in a social sense in order to manage interactions by engendering positive feelings in the other person(s)) and being "mean" (meaning deriving pleasure from actively lowering other's self-esteem/self-worth and increasing your own impression of power by so doing).

Sure, LG individuals are not perfect. They may be socially inept, "tactless" (meaning directly honest rather than "sugar-coating" a situation to spare someone's feelings-- "Yes, those pants do make your butt look big."), not as intelligent as one might hope so that nuances of conversation with those more intelligent go over their heads, over-zealous/"nitpicky", too attentive to detail.... sure.

But when all is said and done, even after you've acknowledged all these flaws, you should be able to say "But s/he's a good guy/girl". Just like you know that even though Elan is annoying and "dim" in some (many) respects, you can't help but see he's completely innocent of all evil intent and is just trying to help, even when he fails miserably. If you had to sum him up you'd say, "He doesn't have a mean bone in his body."

But Miko definitely does have, and more than one. And while I am willing to theorize that it is possible to be "mean" and "good" at the same time, it is not so easy or common that I'd think that Miko is one of the favored few that can pull it off.

Well put.



She used her paladinhood as an excuse to order prisoners (not subordinates) around on battle; She used it as an excuse to act as if she was holier-than-thou in strip #250; She used it as an excuse to attack the OOTS since they "sided with Evil". These are the examples I can remember.
Bossing them around in battle had nothing to do with her paladin code. It has to do with her assumptions about things and I don't think she thought the paladin code was a reason to boss them around. In strip #250, she was not referencing the paladin code. The "sided with evil" thing is possible, but definitely up for debate. Her general "meaness" has nothing to do with her paladin code.

[The_Weirdo]

That's true (or at least I am happy to accept it as valid), but there's a big difference between not "nice" (meaning actively presenting yourself as pleasant, affable, likeable in a social sense in order to manage interactions by engendering positive feelings in the other person(s)) and being "mean" (meaning deriving pleasure from actively lowering other's self-esteem/self-worth and increasing your own impression of power by so doing).

Sure, LG individuals are not perfect. They may be socially inept, "tactless" (meaning directly honest rather than "sugar-coating" a situation to spare someone's feelings-- "Yes, those pants do make your butt look big."), not as intelligent as one might hope so that nuances of conversation with those more intelligent go over their heads, over-zealous/"nitpicky", too attentive to detail.... sure.

But when all is said and done, even after you've acknowledged all these flaws, you should be able to say "But s/he's a good guy/girl". Just like you know that even though Elan is annoying and "dim" in some (many) respects, you can't help but see he's completely innocent of all evil intent and is just trying to help, even when he fails miserably. If you had to sum him up you'd say, "He doesn't have a mean bone in his body."

But Miko definitely does have, and more than one. And while I am willing to theorize that it is possible to be "mean" and "good" at the same time, it is not so easy or common that I'd think that Miko is one of the favored few that can pull it off.


Agreed. And Miko DOES, INDEED, take pleasure in seeing, for example, Haley's gold blowing up and her reaction to it. She hides it behind "the gods are punishing you" to rationalize that pleasure. Haley likes money. So what? She earned that money in a lawful way; She did so in a GOOD way as well, by defeating an evil dragon. Yet Miko felt a "need" to rub salt in Haley's wound by claiming the "Gods" were punishing her. I agree that LG people can be rude, and I agree that LG people can be tactless, but I don't agree that LG people can be sadistic.

[theKOT]

Agreed. And Miko DOES, INDEED, take pleasure in seeing, for example, Haley's gold blowing up and her reaction to it. She hides it behind "the gods are punishing you" to rationalize that pleasure. Haley likes money. So what? She earned that money in a lawful way; She did so in a GOOD way as well, by defeating an evil dragon. Yet Miko felt a "need" to rub salt in Haley's wound by claiming the "Gods" were punishing her. I agree that LG people can be rude, and I agree that LG people can be tactless, but I don't agree that LG people can be sadistic.
How do you know she was taking pleasure in Haley's pain? I see no evidence of that. There is nothing to suggest that.
You constantly assume things based on your dislike of Miko.

[The_Weirdo]

How do you know she was taking pleasure in Haley's pain? I see no evidence of that. There is nothing to suggest that.
You constantly assume things based on your dislike of Miko.

Come on. She has enough WIS to know Haley was suffering (reasons nonwithstanding). She knew where the loot came from (a Paladin would just as likely have that loot if he had defeated the dragon). She knows Haley's alignment isn't evil (Her Detect Evil said so). And she knows she could have kept her mouth shut. Why else would she feel the need to rub it in Haley's face? Did the gods appear to her and told her that Haley was being punished? She took the most convenient interpretation she could find. Where is the "you get rewarded for vanquishing evil" in that discourse? Because the dragon was evil. And the loot was the reward. So, aside from making Haley suffer, what other reason is there for saying that?

[Alfryd]

No, no - She could have gone at it all she wanted, for herself. She could even ask "who's with me" or even force them to accompany her. But not FIGHT. She was their official escort (I can't remember the name), not their commander.
As technical prisoners, this was not, apparently, the case. Badass as she may be, she probably needed backup vs. the ogres. Only V objected notably to the ogre diversion in advance.

Maybe so, but Lawfuls don't [put prisoners in the Hole]. LGs even less.
On the contrary, it's a highly useful method of relatively humane discipline, and can be a sound security precaution when dealing with a dangerous psychopath willing to kill innocents.

And wasn't smart at all, leaving a psychopath unattended by the only people that can control him...
Also the people most likely to aid and abet him.

As for your other points, LG people don't attack others on sight. Presumed innocence. Why did she WAIT FOR THE OGRES TO EAT before attacking them but, in the OOTS case, said 2 words, attacked them, and didn't even apologize to Roy for the attack?
Miko had already gone to some lengths to settle the question of their guilt, so assumption of innocence is out. See Nos. 7 and 3 in the Miko FRC. Actually, read the whole thing.

LG people acknowledge their mistakes.
Not neccesarily, although acknowledging mistakes is a LG action, neither is it required.

She used it as an excuse to act as if she was holier-than-thou in strip #250...
See No.2 in the Miko FRC.

Why else would she feel the need to rub it in Haley's face?
Conceivably, because she was retaliating for her own wounded feelings when Haley was a jerk earlier for the sake of preservation of such gold, and possibly because she might just have considered the speech to be useful advice, insofar as she can dispense any. This is perhaps the closest that Miko can come to buddy-buddy talk. Moreover, when characters feel pleasure, they often demonstrate this by *smiling.*

[zimri]

So among Miko's other faults she suffers from that all to human curse of schadenfreude

No I am not defining it do a darn google search or use dictionary.com.

[theKOT]

Come on. She has enough WIS to know Haley was suffering (reasons nonwithstanding). She knew where the loot came from (a Paladin would just as likely have that loot if he had defeated the dragon). She knows Haley's alignment isn't evil (Her Detect Evil said so). And she knows she could have kept her mouth shut. Why else would she feel the need to rub it in Haley's face? Did the gods appear to her and told her that Haley was being punished? She took the most convenient interpretation she could find. Where is the "you get rewarded for vanquishing evil" in that discourse? Because the dragon was evil. And the loot was the reward. So, aside from making Haley suffer, what other reason is there for saying that?
Because in Miko's mind, everything bad that happens either happens as a result of evil or because the gods are punishing that evil. She knew Haley was greedy, she knew Haley couldn't speak. Miko therefore concludes that the gods are punishing her. Miko wasn't reaching for what was most convenient explaination, that is really what she believes. Haley got the gold in a good fashion, perhaps, but Miko saw haley's Valuing gold more than the potential lives of innocents(Haley didn't check to see if everyone had gotten out, she went straight for her gold) as extreme greed.

[motub]

How do you know she was taking pleasure in Haley's pain? I see no evidence of that.

Ummm, when someone you don't like suffers a setback, what purpose is served by going out of your way to (very long-windedly, btw) say "you deserved it, because you suck"? Especially when it's not even true (since the treasure was not in fact "tainted", and Haley's obtaining of it was not evidence of any "wickedness" deserving of a "curse" from the gods).

Does it do anything to repair the situation? No, but of course the situation cannot be repaired anyway.

Is it in any way likely to make anyone "see the error of their ways"? No, because everyone is emotionally upset, and unlikely to have an epiphany at the moment anyway, and further, Miko is socially inept, and while some could perhaps utilize this moment for some effective "shock therapy", Miko does not have those skills, and you'd hope that she knows it.

So what does her speech accomplish successfully? What does "I told you so" ever accomplish? It accomplishes a public acknowledgement that "I was right, you were wrong; I am therefore justified in my superior position relative to you, and, by the way, this proves that I am in fact superior to you, so let's have no more backtalk as if that might be in question"-- and all that is, in this situation-- which is totally unrelated to Miko's relationship to the team-- is kicking somebody when they're down. Heck, she's already got them in her power, what is the point of gloating over their misfortune?

It's just mean. And mean people derive some type of satisfaction from being mean (that's why they do it, pretty much). A "nice" action, or even a "good" or "lawful" action would have been to say nothing, as neither niceness, goodness, lawfulness, nor her specific duty is served by any speech at all, much less the one she made.

[JazzManJim]

Agreed. And Miko DOES, INDEED, take pleasure in seeing, for example, Haley's gold blowing up and her reaction to it. She hides it behind "the gods are punishing you" to rationalize that pleasure. Haley likes money. So what? She earned that money in a lawful way; She did so in a GOOD way as well, by defeating an evil dragon. Yet Miko felt a "need" to rub salt in Haley's wound by claiming the "Gods" were punishing her. I agree that LG people can be rude, and I agree that LG people can be tactless, but I don't agree that LG people can be sadistic.

Let me run an analogy by you.

Let's say there's a guy who is a milionaire. He's come by his money honestly - he worked hard and earned it, he didn't club baby seals to death or anything like that. He spends his millions on himself. He doesn't give to charity or contribute extra cash to the government or anything like that. He indulges himself with his money and that's it.

One day, a series of disasters befalls that man. His mansion burns to the ground, destroying his earthly possessions. The market crashes, reducing his stck portfolio to similarly-smoking rubble. All he has left are the clothes on his back and the change in his pocket. Heck, he doesn't even have a credit rating because hackers got to him and ate it all up.

Now let's say that someone meets this man in his misfortune and tells him that he's gotten his just reward for amassing so much earthly treasure. His downfall was deserved because, in their opinion, he gave in to avarice and didn't share his wealth.

Would you call the person who chided the millionaire evil or simply a sanctimonious jerk? I'd say the vast majority of people would opt for the latter. Generally, they'd be right.

The point here is that "mean" isn't part of the D&D alignment pantheon. It's perfectly within the "rules" to be LG and appear to be a self-righteous *******.

[motub]

The point here is that "mean" isn't part of the D&D alignment
pantheon. It's perfectly within the "rules" to be LG and appear to be a self-righteous *******.

Yes, fine, but then she's also incompetent. I mean, come on, part of the "job" of a Paladin of an Order is to provide an example for the people. Now, Paladins are only human, and naturally each paladin can not be a shining example of every stellar Paladin quality, but the job of Management (as it were) is to train the "foot soldiers" (as it were) to perform their duties in such a way that the qualities they are able to exemplify are highlighted, and the ones they are not able to showcase in the best light are not so obvious.

Hinjo is very affable, but maybe he's not the best in a fight, which perhaps is why Miko (who fights better) was sent out, and Hinjo stays home and does the diplomacy thing, for example. So fine, you don't let Miko talk to any high-mucky-mucks who might happen by.

But no one trained her to shut up when she has no reason to say anything? No one noticed in her training that if she says things when she has no reason to (in fact, even when she does have reason to), she will probably say the wrong thing and make things worse? Even when simply escorting prisoners (who, if they don't "like" her, will tend even more strongly to disrespect her authority, which will make her mission harder and possibly cause it to fail)?

I'll give you that maybe she's just a sanctimonious jerk with no people-sense whatsoever, but that's actually a personality problem that should have been worked around before she was sent out, because it impacts on her job performance, as well as a personality flaw that destabilizes her ability to adhere to her alignment under stress.

[theKOT]

I'll give you that maybe she's just a sanctimonious jerk with no people-sense whatsoever, but that's actually a personality problem that should have been worked around before she was sent out, because it impacts on her job performance, as well as a personality flaw that destabilizes her ability to adhere to her alignment under stress.
Sure, but this comic is full of things that should be sorted out. Belkar's murdering, kidney-harvesting ways are pretty much ignored by the OOTS. I've said before that Miko should be corrected, but the Sapphire guard doesn't seem to care. Instead they pass her off on whatever unfortunate beings happen to have perpetrated the latest "crime". "There's a reason Miko gets sent on the missions in far away lands..."

[Tariskat]

After reading all these posts, and especially the last one by theKOT (Instead they pass her off on whatever unfortunate beings happen to have perpetrated the latest "crime"), doesn't it seem Lord Shojo and Roy did the same thing? The person they found most irritating, they stuck with someone important enough not to be left alone...
I found that kind of funny.
Carry on with Miko good/bad debate.

[Wrecan]

there's a big difference between not "nice" ... and being "mean"...

Not as far as a paladin Falling is concerned. Being "mean" to people does not make you Evil in D&D. it does not make paladins fall.


I am willing to theorize that it is possible to be "mean" and "good" at the same time, it is not so easy or common that I'd think that Miko is one of the favored few that can pull it off.

It is not uncommon at all. Nowhere do the rule son alignment mention "being mean" as cause for alignment modification.


She used her paladinhood as an excuse to order prisoners (not subordinates) around on battle; She used it as an excuse to act as if she was holier-than-thou in strip #250; She used it as an excuse to attack the OOTS since they "sided with Evil". These are the examples I can remember.

No, she didn't. She used her authority as an arresting officer, not her paladinhood, as her authority to order prisoners around. She used the OOTS' decision to side with evil Belkar as a justification for attacking them, not her paladinhood. She didn't cite her paladinhood at all in strip #250.

You're just reading stuff into strips to fit your prejudices.


Miko DOES, INDEED, take pleasure in seeing, for example, Haley's gold blowing up and her reaction to it....LG people can be tactless, but I don't agree that LG people can be sadistic.

Schadenfreude and sadism are different things. Miko is allowed to take satisfaction in the perception that Haley has received poetic justice for her greed. She's even allowed to express her feelings in a tactless manner. That will not cause her to fall.

Had she destroyed Haley's gold in spite, you might (might) have an argument. But Miko actually allowed the party to keep their treasure, even after Roy admitted that they took the treasure solely out of greed. So your argument is totally misplaced.

I pity people who would want to play paladins in some people's games. The moral rectitude some people appear to expect from the class is astounding and puts Miko's "class feature" joke to shame.

[Ghull_Ka]

I swear to GOD, this situation arises every damn time I go into the produce section. What is the DEAL, people?

AHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

You, sir, are a god amongst men!

I swear, by the 12th page or so of these threads I find myself abusing the mouse wheel... words... words... words... more words... words... sigh... words words words... same three or four avatars on the left side over and over again... words... words..

And then I see your post. I laughed myself stupid and nearly fell out of my chair.

Thank you very much! ;D

[hsoj]

For all practical purposes can we change the banner atop the comic to read updates Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday? OOTS is at the bottom of my comic list for two reasons
1. OOTS is by far the shortest name of any of the comics i read and the list just looks nice formatted that way
2. It's rare to find an update on that day.

To continue my rant...
Holy cow, enough with haley's gibberish, Miko is a self-righteous <insert favorite 5 letter expletive here> and I'm still waiting on what Mr Scruffy has to say to Roy! >:(

[Lord_Jadawin]

The negativity I have seen several places in this thread sickens me- the Giant has made it clear time and time again that bitching about the comic being late or the quality thereof is a serious disincentive to him continuing to create such. I think all of his fans get frustrated or even angry when their latest fix isn't ready- I know I have checked the site about 6 times today hoping it will be updated. But coming on here and showing your ass doesn't do anyone any good.

[Hawkeye]

Ye gods, I went through endless threads of endless crap just to find people who think along the same lines as me, and now I've found two of them! Thank you ghull ka and Jadawin!

[ElfLad]

Hay, guyz, I think Belker is so totalley Kaotick Nutral, am i rite or what???/

[theKOT]

For all practical purposes can we change the banner atop the comic to read updates Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday? OOTS is at the bottom of my comic list for two reasons
1. OOTS is by far the shortest name of any of the comics i read and the list just looks nice formatted that way
2. It's rare to find an update on that day.

To continue my rant...
Holy cow, enough with haley's gibberish, Miko is a self-righteous <insert favorite 5 letter expletive here> and I'm still waiting on what Mr Scruffy has to say to Roy! >:(
To get you off your rant, most updates recently have been on time. Monday's? 11:30. Friday's was late, but that was due to an emergency. Wednesday's, Monday's and I think the entire week before was on time. Chill. Also, you COULD check a day later, and then you would get it right away. What does it matter when they come, as long as there are three by the end of the week?

Miko's gone(for now), Haley's gibberish contains no plot points or main punch lines, and Mr. Scruffy only told Roy that he wanted to talk to him one week ago.

[Steward]

Hay, guyz, I think Belker is so totalley Kaotick Nutral, am i rite or what???/

yah and Miko is liek mean lets make 2000000000 threads about it omh great idea!!!!!!!

[Django]

yah and Miko is liek mean lets make 2000000000 threads about it omh great idea!!!!!!!

Yah and th1s st0ry is broing Banjo rulz/sux

[The_Weirdo]

To get you off your rant, most updates recently have been on time. Monday's? 11:30. Friday's was late, but that was due to an emergency. Wednesday's, Monday's and I think the entire week before was on time. Chill. Also, you COULD check a day later, and then you would get it right away. What does it matter when they come, as long as there are three by the end of the week?

Miko's gone(for now), Haley's gibberish contains no plot points or main punch lines, and Mr. Scruffy only told Roy that he wanted to talk to him one week ago.

More to the point, Hsoj, if you don't like the comic, then ask for a refund of the cash you paid to read it. Oops. You can't, you paid none. Ever heard the saying "don't look at a gift horse in the mouth"? Well, yep. So, either stop reading or take the good free stuff without harrassing the guy that does it for free. Man, your mom must have suffered through your early years, to satisfy your whims as a child. :p

[theKOT]

More to the point, Hsoj, if you don't like the comic, then ask for a refund of the cash you paid to read it. Oops. You can't, you paid none. Ever heard the saying "don't look at a gift horse in the mouth"? Well, yep. So, either stop reading or take the good free stuff without harrassing the guy that does it for free. Man, your mom must have suffered through your early years, to satisfy your whims as a child. :p
Now why do you have to bring his momma into this? You just don't go there man! It's such a lowblow.

[The_Weirdo]

Now why do you have to bring his momma into this? You just don't go there man! It's such a lowblow.

You misunderstood. I didn't call his momma anything, just said that she must have gone through a rough patch due to him being spoiled...

Well, yes, it's insult, but it's not "yo momma" insult. :P

[theKOT]

You misunderstood. I didn't call his momma anything, just said that she must have gone through a rough patch due to him being spoiled...

Well, yes, it's insult, but it's not "yo momma" insult. :P
Listen to Mr. T!!! (http://www.devilducky.com/media/26951/)



not that you aren't, but I just wanted an excuse to link this...

[JazzManJim]

Yes, fine, but then she's also incompetent. I mean, come on, part of the "job" of a Paladin of an Order is to provide an example for the people.

That depends on the Order, doesn't it?

Hinjo said that most of Azure City doesn't know much of anything about the Sapphire Guard. Why, exactly, would they need shiny happy Paladins who can proselytize?

The Sapphire Guard has one job and only one job: protect the gate. If a Paladin can do that and be Officer Friendly at the same time, then wonderful. If not, who really cares?

[JazzManJim]

To get you off your rant, most updates recently have been on time. Monday's? 11:30. Friday's was late, but that was due to an emergency. Wednesday's, Monday's and I think the entire week before was on time. Chill. Also, you COULD check a day later, and then you would get it right away. What does it matter when they come, as long as there are three by the end of the week?

Miko's gone(for now), Haley's gibberish contains no plot points or main punch lines, and Mr. Scruffy only told Roy that he wanted to talk to him one week ago.


I just accept that updates will be on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. I spend Wednesday, Friday, and Sunday reading over the boards and occasionally posting.

No biggie.

[Steward]

That depends on the Order, doesn't it?

Hinjo said that most of Azure City doesn't know much of anything about the Sapphire Guard. Why, exactly, would they need shiny happy Paladins who can proselytize?

The Sapphire Guard has one job and only one job: protect the gate. If a Paladin can do that and be Officer Friendly at the same time, then wonderful. If not, who really cares?



True. If it weren't for the entire strip cast's very selective yet unceasingly overpowering stupidity creative choice of actions, Miko would have spent her life sitting in front of a gate that no one cares about along with the rest of the Paladins.

......

Hmm. I think Miko is mean because everyone else in the world has less than half her IQ and a tenth of her wisdom. Imagine, being completely infuriated for all eternity without even being able to take it out on anyone else. She might lose it and pull a Squidward.

[Kish]

"It's hard to be an evil genius when everybody else is so stupid."

[Bork]

This forum beats any other I've seen for rabid sycophants. Those of you, uh, loyal fans who mindlessly, uh, enthusiastically slap down anyone who dares make a criticism should keep in mind that even those of us who think the strip is merely very good and Rich Burlew merely very talented (instead of holy writ and like unto a god, respectively) are entitled to our opinions too. Dozens and dozens of pages are devoted to arguments on whether or not Belkar is evil (duh) and this is acceptable, but not criticism of the strip or its author, oh no.

In another thread those of us who dared express annoyance at Haley's gibberish were summarily told to accept why they didn't annoy everyone else, and that Rich had proclaimed that when Haley's issues were resolved it would be satisfying to all, and that was that. That does not change that the gibberish is annoying (not life-threatening, not depression-causing, just annoying) to me, and I strongly doubt that continuing to see the gibberish until this masterful resolution will enhance the experience. I think it's all drilled into our heads by now that no one can understand Haley. The gibberish has served its purpose.

Note: I'm not whining that this has to change or I'll stop reading the strip or anything like that: I'm stating my opinion, and just because you don't find the gibberish annoying, rattling off the reasons I shouldn't find it annoying are probably not going to change my mind, so why not just let the opinion stand?

And finally, to the people who tell others to stop complaining about the "free" comic lest it be taken away: do you buy the books? I have both so far. So it's not free, the webcomic is just a preview. Granted, if I don't like what I see I don't have to buy the book, but unless Rich does something stupefyingly dumb like running Haley's gibberish without any sort of translation, it's likely still going to be worth the cash.

[Steward]

This forum beats any other I've seen for rabid sycophants.

You've never met any fans of Warcraft, Runescape, Eberron, Dragonlance, Linux, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Lost, Smallville, any comic series you care to name, football teams, basketball teams, actors, musicians, or pretty much anything else, have you? Trust me, they will eat the people on this forum alive.

[ElfLad]

Heck, just go on a conservative forum and say, "Michael Moore is my hero!" Or a liberal forum and say "Rush Limbaugh is my hero!"

Either way, you'll get perma-banned faster than you can say "bicameral legislature."

[Kish]

Note: I'm not whining that this has to change or I'll stop reading the strip or anything like that: I'm stating my opinion, and just because you don't find the gibberish annoying, rattling off the reasons I shouldn't find it annoying are probably not going to change my mind, so why not just let the opinion stand?

I'm pretty sure all the negative opinions you're complaining about being "slapped down" are still on this board. They do stand. No one is censoring you. This is mainly a side issue to me, though--I'm only posting because of what you said about the webcomic not being free because of the books.


And finally, to the people who tell others to stop complaining about the "free" comic lest it be taken away: do you buy the books? I have both so far.

That was your choice.

So it's not free, the webcomic is just a preview.

...Uh. No, the webcomic is a webcomic. The books are books, compilations of the webcomic in a book form. Unless you're paying a subscription fee to read the webcomic, the webcomic is free. Complain about the books arriving late, if you want. Complain if they have pages out of order. Complain if you think the plots are stupid, even. You can even complain about the free webcomic, or argue that its being free isn't the point. But it will weaken your case a lot to base it on silly non-sequiturs like, "I bought the books, therefore the webcomic isn't free." How could you argue that it's not free because of the books? Say that it was free until #120, when there were no books? Or that it was free until Rich decided to make a book and then it morphed into a preview of something to be bought and therefore not a free product itself? Or was it never free, due to the fact that books would eventually exist--the author was mistaken about thinking he was making a free webcomic? Not all the books, T-shirt quotes, and Dragon magazines in the world make the webcomic anything but free.

[Casualgamer]

Heck, just go on a conservative forum and say, "Michael Moore is my hero!" Or a liberal forum and say "Rush Limbaugh is my hero!"

Either way, you'll get perma-banned faster than you can say "bicameral legislature."

I would do that. Say Michael Moore is my hero, that is.

[Steward]

Heck, just go on a conservative forum and say, "Michael Moore is my hero!" Or a liberal forum and say "Rush Limbaugh is my hero!"

Either way, you'll get perma-banned faster than you can say "bicameral legislature."


I deliberately left politics and/or religion out. Don't want to bring that debacle on this board.

Anyway, back to On Topic, does anyone know what Elan said in the last panel? Roy's speech bubbles were imposed over it and I couldn't tell. And crypto-whateverographers want to help me out? Please? ???

[Annalia]

And finally, to the people who tell others to stop complaining about the "free" comic lest it be taken away: do you buy the books? I have both so far. So it's not free, the webcomic is just a preview. Granted, if I don't like what I see I don't have to buy the book, but unless Rich does something stupefyingly dumb like running Haley's gibberish without any sort of translation, it's likely still going to be worth the cash.

Well, the webcomic goes first, before the books. I haven't the book (not that I don't want them) and haven't paid for anything of Oots yet. So, yeah, the comic is free, for me. And you don't pay to see the new comic pop up so that's free too. Having the comic at hand, on paper, is not free. but reading it is. If you pay for it, it's just a choice you made.

But, hey, like you said, let others opinions stand. And I completly agree with that. So I stated mine and won't repeat it. I think that's the way it should be. Discussions between just a few people who always says the same thing can get quite boring.

[theKOT]

This forum beats any other I've seen for rabid sycophants. Those of you, uh, loyal fans who mindlessly, uh, enthusiastically slap down anyone who dares make a criticism should keep in mind that even those of us who think the strip is merely very good and Rich Burlew merely very talented (instead of holy writ and like unto a god, respectively) are entitled to our opinions too. Dozens and dozens of pages are devoted to arguments on whether or not Belkar is evil (duh) and this is acceptable, but not criticism of the strip or its author, oh no.

In another thread those of us who dared express annoyance at Haley's gibberish were summarily told to accept why they didn't annoy everyone else, and that Rich had proclaimed that when Haley's issues were resolved it would be satisfying to all, and that was that. That does not change that the gibberish is annoying (not life-threatening, not depression-causing, just annoying) to me, and I strongly doubt that continuing to see the gibberish until this masterful resolution will enhance the experience. I think it's all drilled into our heads by now that no one can understand Haley. The gibberish has served its purpose.

Note: I'm not whining that this has to change or I'll stop reading the strip or anything like that: I'm stating my opinion, and just because you don't find the gibberish annoying, rattling off the reasons I shouldn't find it annoying are probably not going to change my mind, so why not just let the opinion stand?

And finally, to the people who tell others to stop complaining about the "free" comic lest it be taken away: do you buy the books? I have both so far. So it's not free, the webcomic is just a preview. Granted, if I don't like what I see I don't have to buy the book, but unless Rich does something stupefyingly dumb like running Haley's gibberish without any sort of translation, it's likely still going to be worth the cash.
The only thing I get mad about is when people post with a demanding tone. The poster in this thread was acting angry. Why should he be angry?

The thread where a person claimed that the comics had lost their "magic" was slammed because he honestly believed that these forums existed for the purpose of Rich getting to know what his fans wanted and consequently delivering. He thought of himself as part of the "core" readership and had an elitist tone.

In the not a fan of cryptograms thread, I said that I understand that some are annoyed by Haleys gibberish, but it doesn't get in the way of the plot or major punchlines.

The webcomic is NOT just a preview! It contains the entire plot! A "preview" would only contain teasers.

Trying to talk someone out of their opinion is not wrong. Especially when the comic hasn't been late recently and that is what they are comlaining about. The poster who complained in this thread seemed to be saying that today's comic was late.

Mostly, I don't care if someone has a negative opinion of the strip, but when they say "stop doing this" or "get rid of this character" or something it really annoys me.

But yes, some people do slam unnecessarily on the complainers and it isn't healthy for the webculture. But it should be noted that many complainers also demand things and that makes people have an automatically angry reaction to complainers, especially those who say stuff with an angry tone.

[Holy_Knight]

Anyway, back to On Topic, does anyone know what Elan said in the last panel? Roy's speech bubbles were imposed over it and I couldn't tell. And crypto-whateverographers want to help me out? Please? ???

I actually posted this on page 7 of the thread, but since you asked, here it is again, with some added commentary:


Finally, here's my guess as to the rest of Elan's quote, based partially on what letters and words we can see, and partially on what we know of Elan's personality:

"...and the stores, and the big fancy buildings. And do you guys have a theater? I want to see a theater too. And the zoo! Can I have a lollipop?"


I think the second obscured word on the third line must be "buildings", and since the word before it begins with an "f", I figured "fancy" was probably the right adjective given both length and context. Putting "zoo" for the last line is somewhat speculative, but since we know that "Can I h" and the "e" of "the" have to fit in the space covered by the speech bubble, there's only room for a short word--and going to the zoo seems definitely to fit with Elan's personality (especially considering how child-like he is). So, there you have it.