Do Great Old One warlocks need more at level 1?

[Man_Over_Game]

Level 1 Great Old One Warlocks get the power to telepathically speak at any creature within 30 feet that understands a language. This is only 1-way communication, as the creature cannot respond back.

Is that enough? Virtually every other Patron offers benefits that are fairly universal (with the exception of the Undying) but those powers are often limited in terms of power and use. GOO's feature is unique to only itself, if a bit niche.

The other concern is that its level 1 spells are fairly powerful, but don't upcast well.

Is the Great Old One a solid pick, or should a player pick the Archfey to scratch that itch for a utility-expert Warlock?

[Corran]

I'd say it's a solid pick. The ability is very unique and flavorful and to me it is a good enough reason to make me pick that subclass (it's one of those features that really define a character). The lvl 14 ability could do with some rewording, and I have a few other minor complaints regarding the goolock (and the fiend), but staying on topic, I don't see any problem with lvl 1 goolocks (they are a bit more fragile compared to every other warlock, but at level 1 I don't think the difference is really noticeable).

[Segev]

It's my favorite Patron because of Awakened Mind.

Consider Awakened Mind to be half of tongues, available at level 1. Combine it with charm person to get the most out of that spell no matter what languages you speak. Ensure that, even if you can't understand what those guard-like people are saying, they can understand you when you try to explain that you're not here to cause trouble.

If you pick up Eyes of the Rune Keeper, you can even communicate flawlessly (if a bit weirdly) with any literate being. You think at them, and then can scratch their response in the ground or something. Failing that, comprehend languages is both a Warlock spell, and a ritual. So either Ritual Caster for the right class, or Pact of the Tome with the Book of Secrets Invocation can get you the ability to understand anyone while your Awakened Mind lets them understand you.

It's also undetectable. So nobody can overhear you. Probably not worth the whole party pacting with the same Patron just for this, but even just with you giving information out, you can do so without letting anybody you don't want to know what you're doing. Back to charm person, you can use Awakened Mind to talk to him without his allies knowing at all, and so they can't start questioning why he's heeding you. Instead, he just seems to have this idea, and they can react accordingly. (Works best if you can whammy the leader!)

If you're hiding, you can communicate with people without giving away your location. They hear your thoughts, but there's no echolocation because there's no sound.

There's no indication of what the thoughts "sound" like, other than the fact that they're understood regardless of what language you and the target(s) speak. It may or may not sound like your real voice. It may or may not sound like their inner voice. It may just be intrusive thoughts, or flat-out understanding and concepts. There's room here for lots of fluff, and you'd have to talk to your DM, but Charisma(Deception) might enable you to make them think they're hearing a real voice, or even control the perceived direction, or who they think it sounds like. This is a potentially powerful and abusable thing, though, so your DM may nix it by saying it's "obvious" it's "you," though they may not know who "you" are.

[OldTrees1]

I like the 1-way Telepathy, but Pact of the Chain can give you 2-way Telepathy.

[SLOTHRPG95]

In a recent campaign, my Bard dipped two levels of Warlock solely to pick up Awakened Mind and Eyes of the Rune Keeper. Sure, 1st level of GOOlock might be less impressive in combat than, say, a Fiendlock (although at low levels Tasha's is great). But if you're doing plenty of stealth, social, or intrigue in your campaign, even one-way telepathy is amazing.

[Dienekes]

I definitely think it's the weakest of the patrons at level 1, but I don't think it's bad enough to be considered underpowered.

Like just comparing GOO to Archfey. At level 1, in terms of spells Archfey gets Sleep and Faerie fire while GOO gets Dissonant Whispers, and Hideous Laughter. At level 1, Sleep is better crowd control than Hideous Laughter. This is one of the level you're most likely going to be facing non-intelligent creatures with the lowest hit point totals. Dissonant Whispers vs Faerie Fire is a bit closer in my mind. Now at level 1, the fact that Dissonant Whispers is dealing one of the best damage types doesn't really matter, you probably won't be facing many creatures with resistances. It's still relevant damage with a good effect. Faerie Fire is also losing a bit of potential in one way, I don't think I've ever faced invisible opponent's at first level, but I also think first level is when it's most likely that your mages will be making attack rolls. Which means with party coordination you're providing a lot of Advantages. Honestly, at first level I'd probably call them both a wash. Faerie Fire has a potentially greater effect, but it's more finicky and requires coordination, while Dissonant Whispers is a bit more reliable but not as powerful.

At mid levels, Sleep falls off and Faerie Fire becomes much more useful. But this is only about level 1. But ultimately I'd give the edge slightly to Archfey in terms of spell selection.

Then there's the actual ability.

Fey Presence is a pretty great "get off of me" ability. I don't think an Archfey Warlock really wants to be put in a position where several enemy's are within 10 feet of them. But if it is going to happen, it's probably going to happen at low levels before all your methods of survival and avoidance come online. While Awakened Mind doesn't really have combat application at first level. But you can do some pretty neat things with it if you're clever enough.

So in combat, yeah, GOO is probably the weakest of the lot. That said a lot of these abilities scale pretty well into the game. You can make use of Awakened Mind up till level 20, while Fey Presence is going to be a rarity.

The question is, is it weak enough to be ineffective at level 1. And I don't think so. As long as it has Eldritch Blast and maybe Hex or gets a good Dissonant Whisper on an opponent it's damage should be acceptable. Unfortunately, with their 1 spell per short rest their utility will be a bit lacking compared to other casters. But then that's where Awakened Mind really shines. That said if you wanted to give Awakened Mind some in combat utility, like maybe an Action to apply Fear or maybe a limited per SR ability to apply Disadvantage on their next Wisdom Saving Throws before the end of the round. I don't really think that'd be broken either.

Whether either of those things become unbalanced with multiclassing, I don't really know.

[NaughtyTiger]

Level 1 Great Old One Warlocks get the power to telepathically speak at any creature within 30 feet that understands a language. This is only 1-way communication, as the creature cannot respond back.

isn't it only 1-way cuz Crawford decreed it as such in a tweet?

the definition for telepathy in MM explicitly states telepathy is 2-way.
that should be the "general" until a "specific" overrides it.
i don't see the GOO awakened mind explicitly limiting to 1-way.

[loki_ragnarock]

In the darkness, with the Devil's Site invocation, my party of people largely without darkvision were able to sneak into all kinds of places they shouldn't have because I could co-ordinate their movements in perfect silence.

We got the drop on alot of things at night - even the things with darkvision - because of that simple trick.

That level one ability doesn't add or subtract any numbers, but it's potential applications can change the way you play the game. To me, changing the way you play the game is a pretty substantial measure of power.

EDIT:
A +1 for Naughty Tiger. I'm not seeing it called out in my copy of the PHB. Was it a later errata? I'm not seeing it in the 2018 errata list.

[Man_Over_Game]

On the whole Errata thing...well, the answer is really stupid.

It's on the new printings, but the change isn't listed in the Errata mentions. So it's just laziness.

Or they didn't want people to freak out over their decision to nerf the power by publicizing the change. Sure, the change is in the book, but who buys a book they already own? Who knows something was changed if it's your first time experiencing it?

But Hanlon's Razor applies, so it's probably just incompetence.

Here are some other unmentioned changes to the new books, most of them pretty minor: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/150613/as-of-the-november-2018-core-book-updates-what-changes-were-made-in-the-latest

[NaughtyTiger]

On the whole Errata thing...well, the answer is really stupid.
whoa. i didn't know that... that is well... really stupid.

[Segev]

A +1 for Naughty Tiger. I'm not seeing it called out in my copy of the PHB. Was it a later errata? I'm not seeing it in the 2018 errata list.

It's in how it's worded. It says you can talk to them, and that they can understand you without needing to share a language. It does not say they can communicate back. And the ability isn't called "telepathy."

Personally, I think it can be read naturally to be two-way, but I have seen enough of the reasoning for it not being that way that I no longer argue with people about it. To an extent, it opens up some interesting choices by having that limitation. Such as making you still have use for comprehend languages even if you have Eyes of the Rune Keeper and Awakened Mind.

[Man_Over_Game]

Fey Presence is a pretty great "get off of me" ability. I don't think an Archfey Warlock really wants to be put in a position where several enemy's are within 10 feet of them. But if it is going to happen, it's probably going to happen at low levels before all your methods of survival and avoidance come online. While Awakened Mind doesn't really have combat application at first level. But you can do some pretty neat things with it if you're clever enough.


I think it's worth mentioning that a 10-foot cube around you is a 5x5 cube, which is pretty dang huge.

Additionally, the feature could easily be used out of combat to charm a crowd temporarily. It lasts until the end of your next turn, so I'd say that rewards you 1-2 checks' worth of Advantage on Charisma Checks. There's no telling as to whether the creature knows of it but: it's not a spell (so it's more expensive, you can change spells), it's temporary, and it only mentions that you look more beguiling or threatening. Charm doesn't get enough love, so it should be rewarded whenever possible. My only remaining concern as a DM would be making sure it didn't outdo the Redemption Paladin's Channel Divinity feature (and I'd say it doesn't since Fey Presence is the only thing you get at its level).

Of course, that leads into the problem of the Archfey getting both a non-combat and combat feature, while the Great Old One only gets a non-combat feature.


It's in how it's worded. It says you can talk to them, and that they can understand you without needing to share a language. It does not say they can communicate back. And the ability isn't called "telepathy."

What people are referring to is that it USED to be:

"You can communicate telepathically with any creature you can see within 30 feet of you."

And NOW it's:

"You can telepathically speak to any creature you can see within 30 feet of you."

And its change was not listed in our most recent 2018 Errata.

[NaughtyTiger]

It's in how it's worded. It says you can talk to them, and that they can understand you without needing to share a language. It does not say they can communicate back. And the ability isn't called "telepathy."

Personally, I think it can be read naturally to be two-way, but I have seen enough of the reasoning for it not being that way that I no longer argue with people about it. To an extent, it opens up some interesting choices by having that limitation. Such as making you still have use for comprehend languages even if you have Eyes of the Rune Keeper and Awakened Mind.

i like this... listing reasons why loki why he is wrong, then saying you don't argue about it.
a lot of this going around today...

[Mr Adventurer]

I used it once to fulfil the "can understand you" requirement on Suggestion. I spoke, so fulfilled the "can hear you" requirement, but we didn't share a language, which Awakened Mind fixed for me.

Not totally sure it's legit but it flew at the time and helps make your rare spellslots more applicable when you have Suggestion.

[Segev]

i like this... listing reasons why loki why he is wrong, then saying you don't argue about it.
a lot of this going around today...

*sigh* No, I said I could see both interpretations, and that I thought one made mroe sense than the other. Arguing about it would be trying to prove one of them wrong, or asserting that it is not a correct way to read it.

As I am doing now, arguing with you about what I said and whether or not I was arguing. :smalltongue:

[Dienekes]

I think it's worth mentioning that a 10-foot cube around you is a 5x5 cube, which is pretty dang huge.

Additionally, the feature could easily be used out of combat to charm a crowd temporarily. It lasts until the end of your next turn, so I'd say that rewards you 1-2 checks' worth of Advantage on Charisma Checks. There's no telling as to whether the creature knows of it but: it's not a spell (so it's more expensive, you can change spells), it's temporary, and it only mentions that you look more beguiling or threatening. Charm doesn't get enough love, so it should be rewarded whenever possible. My only remaining concern as a DM would be making sure it didn't outdo the Redemption Paladin's Channel Divinity feature (and I'd say it doesn't since Fey Presence is the only thing you get at its level).

Of course, that leads into the problem of the Archfey getting both a non-combat and combat feature, while the Great Old One only gets a non-combat feature.

It is big, but, honestly I think *in most cases* a lot of that area is wasted space. Archfey Warlocks don't look to have much in the way of melee capabilities. No Shield spell, poor armor, medium hit points. So assuming they're staying in the mid to back of the party that only really comes up if the party gets themselves surrounded. Not an impossible situation, by any means, but maybe I'm just a lenient GM but I can only remember such a situation happening a handful of times over the last year of my game. Now it's definitely possible for our theoretical Warlock to essentially kamikaze themselves to make use of that huge area, maybe using Fey Step or something? But that is an insanely high risk high reward type of maneuver.

Now it can totally be used and useful in out of combat situations, but I think that time limitation is going to be a killer. If we go by the rules here, it takes the action to perform and lasts until the end of their next turn. That would give them, what? About 9-10 seconds? It's good for a quick burst of confusion, but that Warlock is gonna have to talk fast to get more than a single Charisma check on the targets. Not useless, but I think the spread of information with Awakened Mind would probably see more play in OOC situations.

But this is all going over to what I said before. I do think the GOOlock is weaker at level 1 than the other Pacts. At least the one's I know about (don't have SCAG, haven't seen Undying). I don't have any problem with giving them a tiny bit stronger combat abilities at level 1. But, I don't think they're so weak as to be considered a problem class. They're not "Ranger who picked a no show favored enemy and the wrong terrain" bad. Or honestly, I think level 1 Monk is worse than a level 1 Goolock in pretty much every way, except maybe their AC. Those are the classes I think actually have a bit of a problem at this level. GOOlock is just a bit unexciting.

[Man_Over_Game]

The Undying was....well, very disappointing. It has a harder time dying, and that's about it. Your level 1 feature is effectively Sanctuary on yourself, but only applies to undead.

[KorvinStarmast]

What people are referring to is that it USED to be:

"You can communicate telepathically with any creature you can see within 30 feet of you."

And NOW it's:

"You can telepathically speak to any creature you can see within 30 feet of you."

And its change was not listed in our most recent 2018 Errata.
This is one of those "Jeremy, a little less kaluha in your coffee would be a great idea" conversations I'd like to have.

Our table stuck to "communicate" and no, it is not OP.

What's more annoying, to me, is the number of people who claim that any number of things in 5e are OP when they are not.

[NaughtyTiger]

*sigh*
same *sigh* right back at ya...


What's more annoying, to me, is the number of people who claim that any number of things in 5e are OP when they are not.
sharpshooter? :)

[KorvinStarmast]

same *sigh* right back at ya...


sharpshooter? :) The dice are fickle ...

[Man_Over_Game]

sharpshooter? :)

I'm partial to Fireball. As a level 5 feature that you can cast twice per day, it's only considered "average" for the level if you hit a single target, and it can hit anywhere between 1-64 targets while only halving on a miss.

A Fighter using Action Surge, ignoring hit chance, might deal as much damage as Fireball hitting two creatures. It's difficult for me to understand why they chose the numbers they did for Fireball.

But that's a topic for another day.

[Nagog]

I'm playing a GooLock right now in a campaign, and while the chassis of the Warlock class is enough to sustain the character, it's got a very similar feel to the Mastermind Rogue. It's great for some campaigns or DM styles, horrid for others. Until level 14, the subclass abilities are all but ignored outside of an Intrigue themed campaign, and the level 14 ability ranges from extremely powerful to occasionally useful depending on your DM's interpretation of the wording.

As far as first level goes, it doesn't fare well against other subclasses level 1s, or even other classes level 1 perks, with or without subclasses. It feels more like a racial trait than a subclass feature.

[Necrosnoop110]

I love me some GOO. Any table that I DM at I would rule that it is two-way telepathy. Ridiculous that it's not. If they were so worried about it couldn't they have expanded to two-way at 3rd or 6th or whatever?

As to needing a boost? Maybe. But I've run a GOO warlock twice and overall it fulfilled its role well. Was constantly vexed that the Awakened Mind was only one way though. Currently its the only officially finished option for those of us who want a psion/telepath type character. I pared my GOO up the pact of the tome and my options really expanded.

[Segev]

I'm playing a GooLock right now in a campaign, and while the chassis of the Warlock class is enough to sustain the character, it's got a very similar feel to the Mastermind Rogue. It's great for some campaigns or DM styles, horrid for others. Until level 14, the subclass abilities are all but ignored outside of an Intrigue themed campaign, and the level 14 ability ranges from extremely powerful to occasionally useful depending on your DM's interpretation of the wording.

Yeah, the level 14 ability strikes me as evidence that somebody didn't remember what the Charmed condition actually does. They treat it - right there in the name - like it gives you a thrall. A minion. A mind-slave helpless but to obey you.

It doesn't. It gives you somebody who cannot attack you, who you can talk to from any distance (and with the way Awakened Mind is worded and ruled, it's unclear whether your Thrall can send thoughts back to you or not), and against whom you get Advantage on all Charisma checks.

Your Thrall can flee from you. He can't escape your mentally-delivered words, but he doesn't have to stay. He can thwart your agenda, and work against you. He can attack your allies. He can steal from you, lie to you, tattle on you to authorities...


The only thing it actually can do towards truly enthralling somebody is let you consistently and continuously make Charisma-based ability checks against him, with Advantage. That isn't nothing! In theory, you should be able to brainwash somebody like that, eventually. But it's going to take a while.

It doesn't even let you target him more easily with spells. If you could charm person or dominate him from any distance, that'd be one thing. But as written, I'm pretty sure they thought "Charmed" made people like you and have a hard time disobeying you. Sadly, they were wrong. (Weirdly, it's not been touched even as other things in the class are errata'd, so maybe this is intentional...but then, what do they expect you to do with it?)

[Necrosnoop110]

Yeah, the level 14 ability strikes me as evidence that somebody didn't remember what the Charmed condition actually does. They treat it - right there in the name - like it gives you a thrall. A minion. A mind-slave helpless but to obey you.

It doesn't. It gives you somebody who cannot attack you, who you can talk to from any distance (and with the way Awakened Mind is worded and ruled, it's unclear whether your Thrall can send thoughts back to you or not), and against whom you get Advantage on all Charisma checks.

It doesn't even let you target him more easily with spells. If you could charm person or dominate him from any distance, that'd be one thing. But as written, I'm pretty sure they thought "Charmed" made people like you and have a hard time disobeying you. Sadly, they were wrong. (Weirdly, it's not been touched even as other things in the class are errata'd, so maybe this is intentional...but then, what do they expect you to do with it?)
Couldn't agree more. I've seen it claimed online that the "charmed condition" is up to the DM. But there is not even a hint at that in the rule (that I can find). RAW DMs are gonna go: sorry all it does is what it says. And RAI DMs are going to be wildly inconsistent.

[Nagog]

Yeah, the level 14 ability strikes me as evidence that somebody didn't remember what the Charmed condition actually does. They treat it - right there in the name - like it gives you a thrall. A minion. A mind-slave helpless but to obey you.

It doesn't. It gives you somebody who cannot attack you, who you can talk to from any distance (and with the way Awakened Mind is worded and ruled, it's unclear whether your Thrall can send thoughts back to you or not), and against whom you get Advantage on all Charisma checks.

Your Thrall can flee from you. He can't escape your mentally-delivered words, but he doesn't have to stay. He can thwart your agenda, and work against you. He can attack your allies. He can steal from you, lie to you, tattle on you to authorities...


The only thing it actually can do towards truly enthralling somebody is let you consistently and continuously make Charisma-based ability checks against him, with Advantage. That isn't nothing! In theory, you should be able to brainwash somebody like that, eventually. But it's going to take a while.

It doesn't even let you target him more easily with spells. If you could charm person or dominate him from any distance, that'd be one thing. But as written, I'm pretty sure they thought "Charmed" made people like you and have a hard time disobeying you. Sadly, they were wrong. (Weirdly, it's not been touched even as other things in the class are errata'd, so maybe this is intentional...but then, what do they expect you to do with it?)

I mean even the devil's and demons summoned by spells have a better system in place with controlling another creature. This one feels like a concept they really liked but ultimately failed to implement in a way that's actually worth investing in the subclass for.

[MaxWilson]

I love me some GOO. Any table that I DM at I would rule that it is two-way telepathy. Ridiculous that it's not. If they were so worried about it couldn't they have expanded to two-way at 3rd or 6th or whatever?

+10. It was originally two-way, then they errata'ed it to be one-way, and I ignore the lame errata.

It's still not an exceptionally powerful ability, so a DM might as well let it do what it's supposed to do: facilitate communication.


Yeah, the level 14 ability strikes me as evidence that somebody didn't remember what the Charmed condition actually does. They treat it - right there in the name - like it gives you a thrall. A minion. A mind-slave helpless but to obey you.

It doesn't. It gives you somebody who cannot attack you, who you can talk to from any distance (and with the way Awakened Mind is worded and ruled, it's unclear whether your Thrall can send thoughts back to you or not), and against whom you get Advantage on all Charisma checks.

Your Thrall can flee from you. He can't escape your mentally-delivered words, but he doesn't have to stay. He can thwart your agenda, and work against you. He can attack your allies. He can steal from you, lie to you, tattle on you to authorities...

The only thing it actually can do towards truly enthralling somebody is let you consistently and continuously make Charisma-based ability checks against him, with Advantage. That isn't nothing! In theory, you should be able to brainwash somebody like that, eventually. But it's going to take a while.

It doesn't even let you target him more easily with spells. If you could charm person or dominate him from any distance, that'd be one thing. But as written, I'm pretty sure they thought "Charmed" made people like you and have a hard time disobeying you. Sadly, they were wrong. (Weirdly, it's not been touched even as other things in the class are errata'd, so maybe this is intentional...but then, what do they expect you to do with it?)

Honestly the other part of "charmed" is probably more useful towards this end: your thrall cannot attack you or target you with harmful spells, period. So you could use Create Thrall, as written, to keep someone locked up in your house with you forever, and they wouldn't be able to kill you even while you're asleep (unless they use poison I guess). That's a terrible 14th level ability but it's marginally better at creating a thrall than the "advantage on Charisma checks" part.

It can be fixed simply by adding the words, "While charmed, the creature obeys your commands unhesitatingly." I have no idea why WotC hasn't ever errata'ed it accordingly.

[Segev]

+10. It was originally two-way, then they errata'ed it to be one-way, and I ignore the lame errata.

It's still not an exceptionally powerful ability, so a DM might as well let it do what it's supposed to do: facilitate communication.Certainly a nice way to run it, though I will confess that the limitation has its appeal to me for how else to make use of it. It is a bit weird that it basically obviates tongues as a first-level ability. (That's probably why the nerf.)

However the DM runs it, though, I think it's useful. It's just obviously more useful and less likely to frustrate a newbie player who takes it at face value if you run it as two-way communication.


Honestly the other part of "charmed" is probably more useful towards this end: your thrall cannot attack you or target you with harmful spells, period. So you could use Create Thrall, as written, to keep someone locked up in your house with you forever, and they wouldn't be able to kill you even while you're asleep (unless they use poison I guess). That's a terrible 14th level ability but it's marginally better at creating a thrall than the "advantage on Charisma checks" part.Agreed, the "can't attack you" part is useful for keeping a prisoner. And for forcing them to listen because they can't fight you to shut you up.

But yes, pretty terrible.


It can be fixed simply by adding the words, "While charmed, the creature obeys your commands unhesitatingly." I have no idea why WotC hasn't ever errata'ed it accordingly.

That's one way to do it. "While Charmed, the creature is loyal to you," is another. (Not any better; I was going to try a littany of options, but my creativity ran dry early.)

It'd be nice if WotC had an example of what they imagine it looks like in play. Is it more like Dominate or Charm? Is it a soul-crushing effect that makes them a snivelling shell of who they used to be, loyal only to their new master, or does it leave them mostly intact but unable to resist orders? Do they like you? (Charm suggests "yes," but the actual effect of the condition really doesn't say so.) Do they only obey you to the extent that charm person would handle, since they interpret everything you say in the best possible way? Is their alignment changed (i.e. do they think as you wish them to), or are they trapped into doing things they hate if you make them act against their alignment?

Even if all of these are supposed to be possibilities, there needs to be some note about how this Thralldom actually works. And the mechanics behind using Charisma checks on people are too flimsy to resort to them to make that determination.

(In 3.5, for example, massive bonuses to Diplomacy checks against your Thrall would quickly get him to Friendly or even Fanatic.)

[MaxWilson]

Certainly a nice way to run it, though I will confess that the limitation has its appeal to me for how else to make use of it. It is a bit weird that it basically obviates tongues as a first-level ability. (That's probably why the nerf.)

And yet they still gave Kalashtar that same ability, with greater range, as a racial ability, together with a whole package of other neat stuff like advantage on Wisdom saves. And Tongues still has uses even if you have telepathy: you can overhear conversations (including during combat), and you can speak to (and listen to) multiple creatures at once.

Considering what other warlocks get at first level (temp HP on every kill? Hexblade's Curse and Medium Armor proficiency?), I don't think a nerf to Awakened Mind was wise or justified.


However the DM runs it, though, I think it's useful. It's just obviously more useful and less likely to frustrate a newbie player who takes it at face value if you run it as two-way communication.

I agree that one-way communication is not useless. There are niche situations where it would be useful, e.g. to surrender without having a common language, or to do a very basic interrogation like "show me where your village is or I'll kill you".

But it's not useful enough to be attractive--a player who is interested in diplomacy and interaction would just learn the Tongues spell and take a different subclass, whereas by leaving Awakend Mind alone I make sure that GOOlocks are cool enough to be worth taking sometimes.


That's one way to do it. "While Charmed, the creature is loyal to you," is another. (Not any better; I was going to try a littany of options, but my creativity ran dry early.)

Sure, that works too. All I'm saying is that it's a simple one-sentence fix.


It'd be nice if WotC had an example of what they imagine it looks like in play. Is it more like Dominate or Charm? Is it a soul-crushing effect that makes them a snivelling shell of who they used to be, loyal only to their new master, or does it leave them mostly intact but unable to resist orders? Do they like you? (Charm suggests "yes," but the actual effect of the condition really doesn't say so.) Do they only obey you to the extent that charm person would handle, since they interpret everything you say in the best possible way? Is their alignment changed (i.e. do they think as you wish them to), or are they trapped into doing things they hate if you make them act against their alignment?

Even if all of these are supposed to be possibilities, there needs to be some note about how this Thralldom actually works. And the mechanics behind using Charisma checks on people are too flimsy to resort to them to make that determination.

(In 3.5, for example, massive bonuses to Diplomacy checks against your Thrall would quickly get him to Friendly or even Fanatic.)

Agreed. 5E is way too heavy on the dice-manipulation and sublty-hidden jargon keywords like "charmed" which aren't even defined until you reach the appendix at the back of the book, and short on details that would be visible in-character, and it shows in Create Thrall.

[loki_ragnarock]

I agree that one-way communication is not useless. There are niche situations where it would be useful, e.g. to surrender without having a common language, or to do a very basic interrogation like "show me where your village is or I'll kill you".

But it's not useful enough to be attractive--a player who is interested in diplomacy and interaction would just learn the Tongues spell and take a different subclass, whereas by leaving Awakend Mind alone I make sure that GOOlocks are cool enough to be worth taking sometimes.
Even with the poorly documented and undeserved nerf I will continue to ignore, perfectly silent communication has more advantages than that.

Being able to co-ordinate without tipping your hand still has some profound advantages. Being one way communication doesn't prevent the near perfect navigation in the dark trick I was fond of, for instance. It just requires your party trust your judgement, but that's why you're playing a charisma based class, right?

I like it less nerfed. But I like it more than the other warlock 1st level abilities because it's utility is limited mostly by your imagination.

[Segev]

Even with the poorly documented and undeserved nerf I will continue to ignore, perfectly silent communication has more advantages than that.

Being able to co-ordinate without tipping your hand still has some profound advantages. Being one way communication doesn't prevent the near perfect navigation in the dark trick I was fond of, for instance. It just requires your party trust your judgement, but that's why you're playing a charisma based class, right?

I like it less nerfed. But I like it more than the other warlock 1st level abilities because it's utility is limited mostly by your imagination.

I'm with you on this one. The nerfed version has grown on me for reasons I can't really articulate, but I certainly wouldn't complain about the two-way version, nor tell anybody they're doing it wrong. I definitely feel that the order of core Patron first level powers' desirability, from most to least, is GOO > Fiend > Archfey. The utility of Awakened Mind, combined with its uniqueness, makes it so much more desirable as a general-purpose thing. It would take an extremely combat-focused game to make the other two rise above it, in my opinion, and that combat would have to be pretty formulaic, with limited ability to use communication or where OOC chatter was all the communication that the party needed AND enemies never conversed, but just spawned in and fought.

That doesn't make the other two bad or useless, just less desirable (to me).


I've actually contemplated a Kenku who pacted with a Great Old One (maybe, like Mawarene, the Wind Dukes of Aaqa, maybe something else) because one of the things he got out of it was "the ability to speak." Except whoever or whatever he pacted with didn't or couldn't truly let him just talk, but the Awakened Mind means the inability to vocalize original sentences is much less relevant. Meanwhile, the Kenku uses mimicry to provide sound effects to silent images that he can cast at will as of level 2. For this design, the nerf is all but irrelevant, since the motive for the Kenku is HIS ability to speak, not the mind-speech aspect itself.

[Warlush]

I have found that any ability your DM isn't used to can be a lot of fun. I have found Awakened Mind to be incredibly useful. In fact GOOlocks are my favorite thing to play mostly for this ability.

[Segev]

I have found that any ability your DM isn't used to can be a lot of fun. I have found Awakened Mind to be incredibly useful. In fact GOOlocks are my favorite thing to play mostly for this ability.
Can you elaborate on this, perhaps with examples of what you've done that surprised your DM or otherwise made it incredibly useful, or fun anecdotes about times it was a lot of fun, please?

[Democratus]

Thematically, the one-way communication is fantastic.

A cult of Great Old One worshiping Warlocks can talk to each other silently all day. This is massively useful and would be seen as a "gift" by these cultists. Those not blessed by the GOO do not get to have "the voice" which allows them to mind speak.

I can see a whole cabal of Nyarlathotep worshiping Warlocks silently taking over a city due to this ability.

[MaxWilson]

Even with the poorly documented and undeserved nerf I will continue to ignore, perfectly silent communication has more advantages than that.

Being able to co-ordinate without tipping your hand still has some profound advantages. Being one way communication doesn't prevent the near perfect navigation in the dark trick I was fond of, for instance. It just requires your party trust your judgement, but that's why you're playing a charisma based class, right?

Awakened Mind is shorter ranged than the Message cantrip, and even more importantly it only works on creatures you can see. So that makes Awakened Mind unusable in this scenario, and even if it were legal it would still be worse than a cantrip. (And cantrips are generally worse than subclass features.)

Anyone who is interested in such shenanigans is better off taking the Message cantrip instead of GOO subclass.

[Segev]

Awakened Mind is shorter ranged than the Message cantrip, and even more importantly it only works on creatures you can see. So that makes Awakened Mind unusable in this scenario, and even if it were legal it would still be worse than a cantrip. (And cantrips are generally worse than subclass features.)

Anyone who is interested in such shenanigans is better off taking the Message cantrip instead of GOO subclass.

Message can (normally) be at risk of being overheard, and requires somatic components (which are visible). That said, since message allows you to "speak" a message, and Awakened Mind says you can "speak" telepathically, maybe you can use message to extend the range of Awakened Mind. Your telepathic speech is transmitted just as easily as any verbal speech would be.

Recall, too, that message has no translation ability. Tongues is a second-level spell, while comprehend languages is only a first-level spell. Awakened Mind guarantees you're understood if you wish to be, from level 1, and you CAN (if you absolutely want to) devote yourself to full communication by taking comprehend languages at first level along with Awakened Mind. But it's not crucial; even one-way communication is a huge improvement over no communication.

I honestly think the language thing is the most powerful part of Awakened Mind. The silent speech is cool, but the language thing is what gives it its versatility.

[Man_Over_Game]

I honestly think the language thing is the most powerful part of Awakened Mind. The silent speech is cool, but the language thing is what gives it its versatility.

At the same time, though, Tongues has been mentioned as being redundant, especially since it's a spell that Warlocks can get.

In a way, GOO's get Tongues + Message, while Celestial's get Sacred Flame, Light, and Scaled-Healing-as-a-Bonus-Action.

Which is better? Well, how often have your players casted Tongues?

For me, I'd be able to count it on one hand, if I was missing both hands.

[Segev]

At the same time, though, Tongues has been mentioned as being redundant, especially since it's a spell that Warlocks can get.

In a way, GOO's get Tongues + Message, while Celestial's get Sacred Flame, Light, and Scaled-Healing-as-a-Bonus-Action.

Which is better? Well, how often have your players casted Tongues?

For me, I'd be able to count it on one hand, if I was missing both hands.

A number of times, actually. Enough that I haven't kept count and can't remember each incident. Lots of things don't speak Common.

And tongues is only totally redundant if you have the two-way version of Awakened Mind. (Comprehend languages is probably better for you, personally, but tongues is still useful to cast on others. Unless it's self-only? I find such targeting details tricky to remember and/or keep straight between editions.)

[Man_Over_Game]

A number of times, actually. Enough that I haven't kept count and can't remember each incident. Lots of things don't speak Common.

And tongues is only totally redundant if you have the two-way version of Awakened Mind. (Comprehend languages is probably better for you, personally, but tongues is still useful to cast on others. Unless it's self-only? I find such targeting details tricky to remember and/or keep straight between editions.)

Players also speak more than Common. With about 2-3 languages per character, there aren't too many languages left that your party can't speak or guess. Unless you're casting Tongues to understand something odd, like an Illithid, it hasn't really come up as being relevant.

And you're correct about it only being redundant if you have the two-way version, in which case it'd just mean that GOO Warlocks are...well, less than that.

[Segev]

Players also speak more than Common. With about 2-3 languages per character, there aren't too many languages left that your party can't speak or guess. Unless you're casting Tongues to understand something odd, like an Illithid, it hasn't really come up as being relevant.

And you're correct about it only being redundant if you have the two-way version, in which case it'd just mean that GOO Warlocks are...well, less than that.

They've used it to talk to Grung, Mephits, Giants, and Goblins(Baitiri) at the very least, to my recollection. Their languages cover Common, Chultan, Dwarf, and Elf, which HAVE come up, but which are not the gamut of possibilities. Oh, and orc, which hasn't come up. And probably won't, unless I make it do so. ...wait, no, one NPC spoke it, and the LG NPC and the CN-working-on-CG PC insulted each other in it regularly.

[The Cats]

A DM for a one shot I palyed in a few years ago greenlit me combining awakened mind with the actor feat (and a deception roll) to make people think I was their inner monologue/conscience. That was a fun game.

[Warlush]

Can you elaborate on this, perhaps with examples of what you've done that surprised your DM or otherwise made it incredibly useful, or fun anecdotes about times it was a lot of fun, please?

Absolutely! I have used this ability in conjunction with the ability to speak through my invisible familiar to make NPCs hear multiple voices at once. I've used it in conjunction with the One With Shadows invocation to speak while invisible without using a slot or giving away my location. I've used it in conjunction with minor illusion to trick monsters.
It's very useful for gaslighting people. I've made the leader of a gang of thugs look really foolish when he was responding out loud to a voice only he could hear.
One time I saw a friend trick a kobold into believing that he was hearing the voice of a deity.
In conjunction with Mask of Many Faces and the 1st level spell comprehend languages you can pose as any race even if you don't know their language.
It makes the Suggestion spell work even if they can't hear you and there's a language barrier.
I've set up many a rogue for a surprise round buy distracting someone with a voice in their mind. I know that many of these things are possible with other spells, but this requires no components or gestures, and still works in an anti magic field, and it can't be dispelled.
I've also used it to undercut and do secret deals right in front of my Paladin compadre.

[Segev]

A DM for a one shot I palyed in a few years ago greenlit me combining awakened mind with the actor feat (and a deception roll) to make people think I was their inner monologue/conscience. That was a fun game.


Absolutely! I have used this ability in conjunction with the ability to speak through my invisible familiar to make NPCs hear multiple voices at once. I've used it in conjunction with the One With Shadows invocation to speak while invisible without using a slot or giving away my location. I've used it in conjunction with minor illusion to trick monsters.
It's very useful for gaslighting people. I've made the leader of a gang of thugs look really foolish when he was responding out loud to a voice only he could hear.
One time I saw a friend trick a kobold into believing that he was hearing the voice of a deity.
In conjunction with Mask of Many Faces and the 1st level spell comprehend languages you can pose as any race even if you don't know their language.
It makes the Suggestion spell work even if they can't hear you and there's a language barrier.
I've set up many a rogue for a surprise round buy distracting someone with a voice in their mind. I know that many of these things are possible with other spells, but this requires no components or gestures, and still works in an anti magic field, and it can't be dispelled.
I've also used it to undercut and do secret deals right in front of my Paladin compadre.

Nice! Those are some fun ideas.

I'll note that they require that it be possible to mistake the voice in their head for a real sound, and possibly to adjust what it sounds like (e.g. is it "your voice" or is it a generic voice?), though the Actor feat should address the latter pretty well.

I am especially partial to the ability to disguise the direction it came from.

I am confused why it would work in an AMF, though.

[DarknessEternal]

No warlock needs more at level 1. The first three levels of Warlock are the most powerful levels in the entire game.

Do Great Old One Warlocks need more at levels 4-20. Oh Old Gods, yes they do. They need substantially more.

[Segev]

No warlock needs more at level 1. The first three levels of Warlock are the most powerful levels in the entire game.

Do Great Old One Warlocks need more at levels 4-20. Oh Old Gods, yes they do. They need substantially more.

Does this apply to the other two core Warlocks as well? Despite my misgivings about Thrall, I actually find "once per day, banish somebody for a few rounds and make them take damage" (which both the Fiend and Archfey level 14 abilities do a variation on) to be even less interesting. "Powerful" is...harder to judge, because one/day things without permanent effects are just tricky for me to judge fairly. One/day things bother me inherently, so I'm biased.

I doubt the Hexblade is weak levels 4-20. For all I loathe its flavor and find it annoying that they made a Patron to patch a Pact, it's definitely one of the stronger Patrons, mechanically. The level 6 ability is a touch situational, but not as much as one might think; killing monsters is not exactly a rare occurrence.

I do agree that the level 6 GOO ability is...boring. It's a single disadvantage/(possible )advantage, once per day.


...I just thought of a possibly interesting way to rewrite Thrall.

Thrall
At level 14, the Warlock gains the ability to perform a ritual for an hour on a helpless or cooperative target. During the ritual, the Warlock learns the target's Ideal, Bond, and Flaw, and chooses one to replace with a new one designed by the Warlock. When done, the target becomes the Warlock's Thrall. The Warlock has a telepathic link to his Thrall as long as they are on the same plane, and both can communicate with each other over it. The Thrall is Charmed by the Warlock. If the Warlock has the Voice of the Chain Master Invocation, he may use it through his Thrall as well as his Familiar.



The intent here is that the Warlock picks the trait in his new minion that is most likely to be problematic in controlling him, and replaces it with one that makes the Warlock have an easy time manipulating or outright commanding him. For example, an Acolyte with the Ideal, "I seek to prove myself worthy of my god's favor by matching my actions against his or her teachings," the Bond, "I will do anything to protect the temple where I served," and the Flaw, "I judge others harshly, and myself even more severely," might most easily be controlled if the Warlock replaced the Ideal with, "I seek to prove myself worthy of my master's favor by swiftly executing his will." But if the Warlock has specific designs on the Temple, he might need to tolerate his Thrall's devotion to a different god's teachings and replace the Bond, instead, with something like, "My Master's dreams must be made reality."

For a character whose Ideal and Bond are already useful to the Warlock, he could even take a Flaw that is...detrimental to serving the Warlock (like "My loyalty can be bought with more money than I'm currently getting"), and replace it with one that is more to the Warlock's liking. "I am blind to my master's failings," perhaps, or "I am addicted to the hedonism of my Master's dark court."

[Mr Adventurer]

It makes the Suggestion spell work even if they can't hear you and there's a language barrier.

I've used it with Suggestion myself, but the target still needs to hear you.

[Segev]

I've used it with Suggestion myself, but the target still needs to hear you.

A) you could conceivably be "heard" just be tapping your foot, and
B) you could argue that, just as it's telepathic "speak"ing, your target is telepathically "hearing" you.

[Mr Adventurer]

A) you could conceivably be "heard" just be tapping your foot, and
B) you could argue that, just as it's telepathic "speak"ing, your target is telepathically "hearing" you.

A) I know, but I was replying to someone who said "even if they can't hear you". It's in the part of the post I quoted.

B) You might argue that, but you'd run against all the points people are making about how great it is to be able to speak to someone silently. I don't think you'd be able to have it both ways. Admittedly this is one of those interactions in the rules of 5e natural language, so, maybe.

[Segev]

A) I know, but I was replying to someone who said "even if they can't hear you". It's in the part of the post I quoted.

B) You might argue that, but you'd run against all the points people are making about how great it is to be able to speak to someone silently. I don't think you'd be able to have it both ways. Admittedly this is one of those interactions in the rules of 5e natural language, so, maybe.

In terms of reasonably clear RAI, the reason suggestion requires they be able to hear you is so that you can transmit the actual suggestion to them. It's also normally language-dependent (though that's not a tag in 5e). So I would not have issue with the Awakened Mind feature sufficing.

In terms of "hearing" vs. "silent," just because you make no sound doesn't mean you can't be heard. "I hear you in my head" is a valid sentence that doesn't fail to make sense. People know exactly what you mean if you say it. So the target "hears" you in the same way that you "speak" to him. Nobody else does, because you're not "speaking" to them and this ability doesn't broadcast.

[loki_ragnarock]

Awakened Mind is shorter ranged than the Message cantrip, and even more importantly it only works on creatures you can see. So that makes Awakened Mind unusable in this scenario, and even if it were legal it would still be worse than a cantrip. (And cantrips are generally worse than subclass features.)

Anyone who is interested in such shenanigans is better off taking the Message cantrip instead of GOO subclass.

Unless you're a Sorcerer burning limited resources, Message takes an action. And even at the quickest, a bonus action. Again, unless you're a Sorcerer burning limited resources, Message is obvious AF; you literally have to point your finger at the recipient of the message, subtle spell or no.

Awakened mind just lets you communicate, without any limitation imposed by the action economy, in perfect privacy forever, every round. In fact, there is nothing precluding you from saying X with your mouth and Y with your mind, allowing you to literally say to your cohorts, "Play along, chaps," without immediately making clear to all involved parties that something is afoot.
Awakened Mind is clearly the superior option, dawg.


Also, unusable in this scenario? The scenario described was Awakened Mind when used in conjunction with Devil's Sight; navigating a whole party in the pitch black is totally doable.
The scenario is something you couldn't replicate with Message, as that's limited by the action economy.

[LudicSavant]

GOOlocks don't just need more at level 1. They need more in general.

Even if we give the benefit of the doubt and say for the sake of argument that 30-foot one-way communication is on par for a level 1 Warlock ability, we should at least be able to agree that it's not so good that it pays for other abilities being weak.

And... well, they are. The level 6 and 10 defensive abilities don't hold a candle to Fiend or Feylock. Entropic Ward isn't just the worst L6 Warlock ability in the PHB, it's easily the worst L6 Warlock ability in the PHB.

The L14 ability is a less direct comparison, but it's little more than the ability to maintain long-distance communication and Advantage on Charisma checks with one person you've already beaten up. And there's a good chance that your level 14 party could have done that anyways.

[Rebonack]

Regarding Create Thrall, there's evidence that the Charmed condition used to make a creature Friendly toward you but got dropped at some point.

From 'Awaken'


The awakened beast or plant is Charmed by you for 30 days or until you and your companions do anything harmful to it. When the Charmed condition ends, the awakened creature chooses whether to remain friendly to you, based on how you treated it while it was Charmed.

Note that the spell doesn't mention making the target Friendly anywhere. It simply assumes that it is while Charmed. My guess is that the mechanics of the Charmed condition was altered and Create Thrall and Awaken simply didn't get updated.

Adding the clause that the Create Thrall target becomes Friendly toward you for the duration would make the ability jump from kind of niche to really great.

At our table we just let stuck with the original wording of Awakened Mind, allowing non-verbal communication and two-way talking.

We also replaced Entropic Ward with Force of Will.

Force of Will: You gain Resistance to Physic Damage. As a Reaction to taking damage, you may convert all damage you take until the end of your next turn to Psychic Damage. Once you have used this Reaction you must take a Short or Long rest before you may use it again.

[Segev]

Entropic Ward isn't just the worst L6 Warlock ability in the PHB, it's easily the worst L6 Warlock ability in the PHB.I certainly don't get excited about it. I do think it's intended to "balance" by giving you an offensive boost if you manage the defense. But...yeah, kinda meh, and doesn't really feel all that "great old one"y.


The L14 ability is a less direct comparison, but it's little more than the ability to maintain long-distance communication and Advantage on Charisma checks with one person you've already beaten up. And there's a good chance that your level 14 party could have done that anyways.


Regarding Create Thrall, there's evidence that the Charmed condition used to make a creature Friendly toward you but got dropped at some point.

(...)

Adding the clause that the Create Thrall target becomes Friendly toward you for the duration would make the ability jump from kind of niche to really great.That's an easy way to do it, yeah. Though I still like the idea I had about letting the Warlock replace an Ideal, Bond or Flaw with one of his own design, instead. It seems more...sinister. And more potentially fun.



We also replaced Entropic Ward with Force of Will.

Force of Will: You gain Resistance to Physic Damage. As a Reaction to taking damage, you may convert all damage you take until the end of your next turn to Psychic Damage. Once you have used this Reaction you must take a Short or Long rest before you may use it again.Is there a difference between "you have resistance to psychic damage and can convert all damage taken to psychic damage" and "you have resistance to all damage?" (I know this is a 1/short rest conversion, but I'm trying to see why you worded it this way, rather than just as "As a Reaction...you may gain resistance to all damage you take until...")

Also, doesn't this make the 10th level feature even weaker, in that it adds less? Not saying that you shouldn't move the psychic resistance to level 6, but Thought Shield would seem to also need something of a boost, then.

--ah, Thought Shield lets you turn the conversion of all damage to psychic damage into a retaliatory thing. I see; that is clever.

[Rebonack]

Entropic shield not feeling Great Old One-y is in fact part of the reason why we changed it. Honestly stealing someone's luck feels more like a Fae things than a Great Old One thing. And that's not even considering how weak the ability itself is. Being able to call Disadvantage on an attack before you know whether or not it hits isn't really great. And advantage on the next attack is conditional on the attack missing the warlock.

Force of Will is less conditional, certainly more powerful, and way more thematic for a Patron focused on mental powers.

And yeah, you caught it. Force of Will allows you to turn Thought Shield into an offensive ability, which is likewise a buff to Thought Shield's usefulness. Allowing two-way communication on Awakened Mind, the addition of Force of Will, and adding the Friendly clause to Create Thrall is plenty to help the GoO patron really stick the 'psychic shenanigans' gameplay hook it's advertising.

I also really like the idea of Create Thrall allowing you to change the bond/ideal/flaw of the target, but I feel like that's quite a bit more complicated than simply changing their disposition to Friendly.

[Segev]

Yeah, it is more complicated. That’s part of why I like it, probably. I am prone to overly complicating things. ^_^;

That said, it also plays more with an underutilized segment of 5e’s mechanics. There’s a social system just waiting to be birthed from these traits.

Making them friendly is certainly easier. Though I feel it’s less “mind thrall” than “seduced lackey” at that point. Is there any reason not to just say the Thrall obeys the will of his master as best he can, regardless of how much he likes it?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Level 1 Great Old One Warlocks get the power to telepathically speak at any creature within 30 feet that understands a language. This is only 1-way communication, as the creature cannot respond back.

Is that enough? Virtually every other Patron offers benefits that are fairly universal (with the exception of the Undying) but those powers are often limited in terms of power and use. GOO's feature is unique to only itself, if a bit niche.

The other concern is that its level 1 spells are fairly powerful, but don't upcast well.

Is the Great Old One a solid pick, or should a player pick the Archfey to scratch that itch for a utility-expert Warlock?

GOO is the Trickery Domain of Warlocks, people always comparing it to something it isn't.

5e does a terrible job at having rules for the social and exploration side of the game, however, there comes a few times where the game gives you class options that focuses on these two legs of the game (despite being vague on the rules...).

GOO Warlocks are absolutely fantastic at messing with the minds of other. Grab Actor and pretend to be a GOD. Better yet, pretend to be their subconscious! Really mess with their head by making the thoughts sound like the people around then and make it where they think they're psychic... Then you make them hear bad/messed up things or stuff about plots against them.... Perhaps a person is in a meeting with their boss and you just scream AAAAAAAHHHHHHH in the minion's head so they get distracted and can't remember what the boss said or get in trouble with their boss.

GOO is so much fun.

Even in combat, I used this feature to distract enemies or tell them weird tactics (usually as if I'm them).

[SLOTHRPG95]

GOO is the Trickery Domain of Warlocks, people always comparing it to something it isn't.

[snip]

GOO is so much fun.

Even in combat, I used this feature to distract enemies or tell them weird tactics (usually as if I'm them).

GOO is so much fun, which IMO is another way in which it's the Trickery Domain for Warlocks. Both of them offer an experience that you can't really get with any other archetype within their given class, at least unless you want to multiclass or dive into UA or whatnot.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

GOO is so much fun, which IMO is another way in which it's the Trickery Domain for Warlocks. Both of them offer an experience that you can't really get with any other archetype within their given class, at least unless you want to multiclass or dive into UA or whatnot.

I want to make a Metal Gear Solid adventure based around a GOO Warlock, a Trickery Cleric, and a Mastermind Rogue.

Side note, UA variant class feature for the cleric 8th level feature is amazing and I absolutely love it. +1d8 radiant to a weapon or spell each turn... Abyss yeah! Really beats poison damage.

I like Fiend pact over GOO because of the fact you can hurl an enemy through hell, so cool, but I think GOO is my favorite warlock subclass overall.