Which DC character can take on Spider-Man and make it an even fight?

[Jeivar]

I'm curious. I'm more familiar with the Marvel universe, and generally only familiar with the DC big names, who (aside from Batman) are all absurdly powerful.

Spidey is in kind of an odd place, in terms of power. He's a lot weaker than people like Thor or Wonder Woman and a lot slower than people like Quicksilver, but he's still far above people like Daredevil or Batman.

Is there a DC character who is in a similar spot, who could fight him on a fairly equal level?

[GloatingSwine]

I'm sure there are, but I'm having trouble thinking of one.

DC has a pretty wide gap between street level heroes, who tend to have either no powers or one or two very specific ones, and functional living gods.

Blue Beetle maybe?

[Wraith]

I'm thinking of characters who are extra-human in terms of their abilities - speed, toughness, strength, etc - but lacking in the peripherals that make Superman and Wonder Woman such high-bars - nigh-invulnerability, persistent flight, etc.

I came up with some mid-tier characters who are generally tough but usually lack their own series, or at least, often haven't had a very long or successful one.

Aquaman - Very strong and tough, control over water and aquatic animals, but can't fly and many of his powers don't work very well outside of his niche.

Cyborg - Strong, tough and smart, but not so much that he would one-shot Spider-Man.

Beast Boy - A nice match-up in terms of animal-based motifs, BB can be as fast, strong or tough as any animal that he can think of and borrow their abilities - wall-crawling, limited flight, etc - though usually only one at a time.

Vixen - Similar to Beast Boy, she can match Spider-Man in terms of speed, strength and toughness as well as versitility but is limited by her needs to change between 'modes'.

Booster Gold - Could be a fun match-up; Booster's advanced tech means that he's strong and tough, with flight and lasers for back-up, but without them is a baseline human. I'd like to see this one just because both characters have a sharp wit and would spar verbally with each other.

Hawkman/Hawkgirl - Stronger and tougher than average but not incredibly though. Their big advantage is that they can fly, which is a reasonable match for Spidey's wall-crawling/spider-sense/tech smarts.

The Midnighter - Bit of a cheat with this one as Midnighter comes from Wildstorm comics and ended up in DC later on. Still, he's fast and strong and has a pre-cognition ability similar to spider-sense. The big difference is that he is WAY more highly trained in martial arts and far, far more ruthless - Wildstorm heroes very rarely have compunctions about killing.

That all being said, Marvel and DC did have a cross-over event back in the late 90's - canonically, Spider-Man fought and defeated Superboy (the telekinetic one from pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths). Despite being way stronger, tougher and being able to fly, Superboy was outsmarted by Spidey who led him to a power plant, tied him in webbing, distracted him with banter and then electrocuted him into unconsciousness. So add Superboy to the list, I guess? :smalltongue:


Blue Beetle maybe?

Blue Beetle 1 and 2 were just baseline guys - very smart and resourceful, but no where near as physically powerful as Spider-Man.

Blue Beetle 3 has an intelligent alien-tech suit which can generate weapons whose yield is rated at "biblical implications" - being able to casually nuke a continent probably puts him above Spidey's power range! :smallbiggrin:

[Seppl]

Of the big ones: The weaker iterations of Aquaman vs. Spiderman at his best could be about even, if the battle is on land. Though Aquaman would probably still win. The stronger interpretations of the character roflstomp Spidey.

[comicshorse]

The Suicide Squad (comics version) tend to be in the mid tier of powers. So from them I'm thinking :

Deadshot : Inhumanly accurate with any weapon. Lots of plot armour
Count Vertigo : Flight and powers that cause intense disorientation in the subject.
Doctor Light : Flight, energy projection, dazzle type effect. But generally considered a loser.
Poison Ivy : Pheromone control, master of poisons, mind control, etc. Probably gonna give Spidey problems until he realises just how dangerous she can be
El Diablo; serious fire control powers
King Shark Giant humanoid shark

I think the Female Furies from Apokoplis would also be in the right power range

[Ramza00]

Spider-Man is a 10 to 25 ton fighter depending on writer and era.

He has a reaction time where he can respond to stimuli in microseconds, and his spidery sense provides the perception abilities to fuel this quick stimulus response.

Spider-Man is slower than the speed of sound but can dodge things faster than the speed of sound such as bullets.

He has the agility and flexibility greater than any gymnast allowing him to reposition himself effortlessly with his jumps, flips, etc. Furthermore he can jump several story buildings with a single leap.

—————

Because of this Spider-Man if he was seriously fighting you to injury instead of being his nice guy routine would defeat pretty much anyone who is not a super durable character. All Spider-Man has to do is go Rock Lee on your ass, and before you realize it Peter is behind you, or below you, suddenly kicking you in the air. Once in the air you will not have any traction with the ground so the only way to defeat Spider-Man physically is to have another super-power that is an emitter ability, or to somehow grab and hold Spider-Man when Peter tries to land a blow on you while you are in the air for he is faster than you, can jump really quickly and far, can use any surface to redirect momentum and gain his own traction, etc.

—————

Seriously Spider-Man is stronger and faster than Terry McGinnis with the Batman Beyond suit. Spider-Man is taking down anyone who is not in Wonderwoman / Aquaman’s weight class.

[Sapphire Guard]

Deadshot's tricky, because it tends to come down to either he gets off a shot or he doesn't. You can't really fight him.

Some versions of Croc could do it.

[Peelee]

Booster Gold - Could be a fun match-up; Booster's advanced tech means that he's strong and tough, with flight and lasers for back-up, but without them is a baseline human. I'd like to see this one just because both characters have a sharp wit and would spar verbally with each other.

Dammit Wraith, I was gonna do the Booster Gold argument!

Also, I could see Booster Gold teaming up with Spidey in a way; dude's a glory-hound, Peter's got "superhero action shots" experience up the wazoo, seems like a match made in heaven.

[Daimbert]

Blue Devil, maybe? He's reasonably tough and mobile, but not overwhelmingly so (usually).

[HandofShadows]

A problem with Spider Man is that many writer nerf him or don't understand his power set very well. Spidey has a super fast reaction time and with his Spider sense he can dodge multiple people shooting at him with machine guns. (He is faster than the eye can follow) He should be almost impossible to hit by a punch unless it is super-humanly fast. He is also strong as in can bench press about 10 tons. Which isn't a lot compared to "high end" heroes. But with Spider Man's speed he can hit you three, four or five times in the space of time a normal punch would be thrown. It adds up. He also has a high resistance to impact forces (fists). And if Spidey wanted to fight REALLY dirty he can "Mark of Cain" someone. Which means he literally rips the skin off of someone with his wall crawling powers. The thing that makes Spidey most dangerous his him mind. He is very smart and thinks out of the box a great deal.

I think a match up with Wonder Woman would be a lot closer than most think because she actually can be hurt somewhat by bullets, which means Spidey would be able to hurt her. And he is fast enough to avoid her attacks. IIRC in a DC/Marvel crossover Spidey and WW did meet. WW thought Spidey was a villain and went to attack. Spidey dodged and took out the lights. This left WW holding a glowing lasso making her a great target in the dark. Spidey came up behind her and pointed that out and it convinced WW he was not the bad guy.

[Friv]

I think that if Spiderman and Batman were going toe to toe in a large urban environment (as opposed to on a featureless plain) it would be a pretty even, but very asymmetrical, fight. If Spiderman can pin Batman down he can win, but Batman is smart, stealthy, and has the tech to wear Spiderman down. On the flip side, Spiderman is mostly immune to gadget-traps and easy takedowns, which means Batman is going to need to be immensely tactical.

I would imagine that fight shifting back and forth about who's the underdog and who's winning, and coming down to whether Batman's last trick succeeds or whether Spiderman evades it and lands a solid hit.

[Jeivar]

I think that if Spiderman and Batman were going toe to toe in a large urban environment (as opposed to on a featureless plain) it would be a pretty even, but very asymmetrical, fight. If Spiderman can pin Batman down he can win, but Batman is smart, stealthy, and has the tech to wear Spiderman down. On the flip side, Spiderman is mostly immune to gadget-traps and easy takedowns, which means Batman is going to need to be immensely tactical.

I would imagine that fight shifting back and forth about who's the underdog and who's winning, and coming down to whether Batman's last trick succeeds or whether Spiderman evades it and lands a solid hit.


Sorry, but I am really, really tired of the BatGod thing. Spidey fight tech all the time, has EVERY physical advantage over Batman, is almost as smart, and the Spider Sense negates Batman's stealth and trickery, which are his main assets.

If one sets plot armour aside, Batman shouldn't stand a chance.

[Sapphire Guard]

The Bat kind of breaks the cage match format, because how he acts changes a lot depending on how much he knows about his adversary.

And that's leaving aside the many, many different versions of both characters.

[Peelee]

Spidey... has EVERY physical advantage over Batman

Spider-Man, IIRC, has no actual fight training, while Batman does.

Spidey would still take him in a fight since he's got speed and strength over him, but I wouldn't say every physical advantage.

[Ramza00]

Spider-Man, IIRC, has no actual fight training, while Batman does.

Lots of fight training is assuming an equal or near equal opponent. Spidey has training where he literally does not break people by accident.

[Chronos]

Any of them. When two comic-book characters fight, you can always contrive some reason why the underdog wins. Remember, Squirrel Girl has defeated Galactus.

[HandofShadows]

Lots of fight training is assuming an equal or near equal opponent. Spidey has training where he literally does not break people by accident.

Yes to this many times. Spidey has tons of experience fighting nearly everyone. (Including a very large number of high tech opponents) A good example of his control is when Doc Ock took over his body (Superior Spider Man) and got into a fight with the Scorpion. Ock hit the Scorpion full strength and accidentally tore off his lower jaw :smalleek:. The Scorpion is very much a superhuman and much tougher than a normal person.

[Xyril]

That all being said, Marvel and DC did have a cross-over event back in the late 90's - canonically, Spider-Man fought and defeated Superboy (the telekinetic one from pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths). Despite being way stronger, tougher and being able to fly, Superboy was outsmarted by Spidey who led him to a power plant, tied him in webbing, distracted him with banter and then electrocuted him into unconsciousness. So add Superboy to the list, I guess? :smalltongue:


I wouldn't quite go so far as calling it an even fight, but against even one of the top tier Kryptonians I'd say Spidey has enough of a shot at coming out ahead that there'd still be some decent dramatic tension to the fight. This is mostly because of his spider-sense, and a little bit due to his science-science and wise-ass-sense.


A problem with Spider Man is that many writer nerf him or don't understand his power set very well. Spidey has a super fast reaction time and with his Spider sense he can dodge multiple people shooting at him with machine guns. (He is faster than the eye can follow)


Early on, this was Peter Parker's own take on how his spider-sense worked--which makes sense given that he's a science-y guy, and would naturally seek out a scientific explanation for how his powers work. This explanation was pretty much word of God in the comics, as far as I know, until he started interacting more with the wider, more magical/supernatural Marvel universe. As of right now, AFAIK, spider-sense still has a strong physical basis--enough so that it could be disrupted and restored using the magic of science--but it's also has a metaphysical connection to the web of fate, meaning it actually operates faster than information transmission (barring hyperspace shenanigans, this means the speed of light) and can sense even danger that would theoretical be undetectable through any combination of subtle sensory data/instinct/ultra-fast information analysis.

When Spider-man lost his spider-sense, the writers really showcased how powerful it was and how subtly it could work by depicting just how crappy his life was without it. Previously depictions had focused on the big buzzing he gets just before an otherwise undetected threat hit him (usually literally.) Without his Spider-sense, web slinging became a lot more dangerous because he'd unconsciously been relying on spider-sense to avoid anchoring to anything that couldn't support his weight--and apparently New York City is just covered with shoddy masonry. I also vaguely recall the assertion that without his spider-sense's quiet influence, Peter Parker's existing tendency to make terrible life choices got even worse, but I can't say for sure whether that was a canon source.

I'd say that spider-sense could partially--but not completely--compensate for the tremendous speed advantage Superman and Supergirl would have. Between the paranormal aspect of spider-sense, scientific ability, and the fact that Spider-man has frequently used trickery or engineering to beat enemies who--if you solely consider power-sets--should completely outclass him, I could see him getting a win by exploiting one of the few Kryptonian weaknesses.



Any of them. When two comic-book characters fight, you can always contrive some reason why the underdog wins. Remember, Squirrel Girl has defeated Galactus.

Yes, but at what cost?

The cost was nut-world.

[False God]

Sorry, but I am really, really tired of the BatGod thing. Spidey fight tech all the time, has EVERY physical advantage over Batman, is almost as smart, and the Spider Sense negates Batman's stealth and trickery, which are his main assets.

If one sets plot armour aside, Batman shouldn't stand a chance.

Batman takes on a lot of mutants that are comparable to Spideys villains on a fairly regular basis(Croc/Dr Croc, Bane/Rhino, Sandman/Clayface). Spidey Sense isn't a perfect catch all, sometimes it acts too slowly, sometimes it doesn't react at all. It's not a 100% "this is a bad thing watch out!", it only warns him that there is danger and sometimes in the general direction of that danger, but it doesn't tell him any specifics about that danger. Which means its still up to Spidey to react properly to avoid the danger (which he doesn't always do).

[LibraryOgre]

King Shark Giant humanoid shark


I don't understand this. I'm, like, not clear on his concept at all. :smallbiggrin:

I think Booster Gold would be a good match for Spidey, as mentioned above. And, despite him being a Green Lantern, I think Spidey could do well against Guy Gardner, too.

[Peelee]

When Spider-man lost his spider-sense, the writers really showcased how powerful it was and how subtly it could work by depicting just how crappy his life was without it. Previously depictions had focused on the big buzzing he gets just before an otherwise undetected threat hit him (usually literally.) Without his Spider-sense, web slinging became a lot more dangerous because he'd unconsciously been relying on spider-sense to avoid anchoring to anything that couldn't support his weight--and apparently New York City is just covered with shoddy masonry. I also vaguely recall the assertion that without his spider-sense's quiet influence, Peter Parker's existing tendency to make terrible life choices got even worse, but I can't say for sure whether that was a canon source.

IIRC they also had him subconsciously ditch a lot of subtle normal behavior, like looking both ways before crossing the street. To his detriment when he loses that power.

[lord_khaine]

Lots of fight training is assuming an equal or near equal opponent. Spidey has training where he literally does not break people by accident.

Yeah. Really almost no sort of training is going to prepare you for fighting Spiderman if your an un-augumented human.
You cant use any sort of throws or joint locks on him. Because his weakest joint is still stronger that the force you can produce.
And hitting him? Thats only going to annoy him. If you actually hit him. Since he has taken blows from people who can shatter concrete with their bare hands.

Thats before we then move on to his agility. Or the fact that Spiderman has in fact been taught by both Captain America and Shang Chi.
So Batman wont stand a chance without the Writer Fiat level plot armor he uses to fight Superman.

At the same time though, Spiderman is equally chanceless against the JL heavyweights.
He will absolutely not stand a chance against Wonder Woman. Who are 1-2 orders of magnitudes stronger and tougher than he is.
And who are both a more skilled fighter, as well as significantly faster. WW has reaction speed to fight light speed opponents.

[Ramza00]

Rock Lee (Chunnin Exams) vs Spider-Man, who takes it?

[Xyril]

IIRC they also had him subconsciously ditch a lot of subtle normal behavior, like looking both ways before crossing the street. To his detriment when he loses that power.

Which would have been a Sopranos-worthy way to end the series.

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah. Really almost no sort of training is going to prepare you for fighting Spiderman if your an un-augumented human.
You cant use any sort of throws or joint locks on him. Because his weakest joint is still stronger that the force you can produce.
And hitting him? Thats only going to annoy him. If you actually hit him. Since he has taken blows from people who can shatter concrete with their bare hands.

Thats before we then move on to his agility. Or the fact that Spiderman has in fact been taught by both Captain America and Shang Chi.
So Batman wont stand a chance without the Writer Fiat level plot armor he uses to fight Superman.


Remember that one of Batman's biggest strengths is his ability to plan ahead and devise countermeasures for specific opponents.

And he does know Spider-Man. They've met at least twice.

So he almost certainly does have a plan for eventualities like "Peter's body is taken over by a supervillain and he needs to be stopped" by this point.

[Wraith]

I wouldn't quite go so far as calling it an even fight, but against even one of the top tier Kryptonians I'd say Spidey has enough of a shot at coming out ahead that there'd still be some decent dramatic tension to the fight. This is mostly because of his spider-sense, and a little bit due to his science-science and wise-ass-sense.

I brought it up because it demonstrates how Spider-Man will win so long as he is being underestimated. Put him up against Superboy or Supergirl and, despite being Kryptonians, he stands a chance because they are young, somewhat naive/idealistic and prone to lacking self-confidence.
If he stalls for time and works out some kind of trap or ambush, like he did against Superboy, he can get the win because he's smarter and his fighting style is unorthodox. If he takes his chance and doesn't take them down, however, he's probably screwed as then they'll realise how tricky he is and start to take the kid-gloves off.

Hence it's "even" as suggested in the OP, and like you said, as there'd be some tension in the fight - we're watching it because we want to know what sort of wacky, off-the-wall stuff he can come up with, as much as we are to see whether or not it will work. :smallsmile:


Dammit Wraith, I was gonna do the Booster Gold argument!

:smalltongue:


I don't understand this. I'm, like, not clear on his concept at all. :smallbiggrin:

He's a *&*%$#@ shark! (https://i.imgur.com/MWtFi58.jpg) :smallwink:


And, despite him being a Green Lantern, I think Spidey could do well against Guy Gardner, too.

I think any of the Lanterns would be outside of Spider-Man's ability to fight - they semi-regularly throw down with Superman-level threats like Doomsday and Mongol. If nothing else, they just put a bubble around themselves and wait - there's nothing Spidey can do about it.

Guy Gardner not as Green/Yellow/Red Lantern (he's been all three at some point or another) but as Warrior would be fun, though - he lost his power ring at one point and got... I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was some kind of alien virus that made weapons grown out of his body or something. Not quite as powerful or varied as similar shape-shifting monsters like Venom or Carnage, but the banter would be worth the hand-wave.

[Jeivar]

Spider-Man, IIRC, has no actual fight training, while Batman does.

Spidey would still take him in a fight since he's got speed and strength over him, but I wouldn't say every physical advantage.

Pit Bruce Lee against a grizzly bear and tell me how it went.

[Peelee]

Remember that one of Batman's biggest strengths is his ability to plan ahead and devise countermeasures for specific opponents.
I'm not a big fan of this argument, because that's not his biggest strength. Batman's biggest strength is being the world's greatest detective (and not in a Nolan-esque "WHERE ARE THE DRUGS?" way). He can plan ahead and devise countermeasures because he's the world's greatest detective. And sometimes, the best countermeasure would be to not fight someone. The questions is specifically asking about a fight, so no, Batman would go down.

Pit Bruce Lee against a grizzly bear and tell me how it went.
...Bruce Lee would go down fast, despite having some physical advantages over the bear? Just like how I said Batman would lose?

I'm not quite sure what the point you're making here is.

[Sapphire Guard]

It's not necessarily a purely physical contest, though. Let's also remember the lesserknown Bat Power of 'summon fighter jet'.

[lord_khaine]

Remember that one of Batman's biggest strengths is his ability to plan ahead and devise countermeasures for specific opponents.

Yes. As i said. His Writer Fiat plot armor :P


I brought it up because it demonstrates how Spider-Man will win so long as he is being underestimated. Put him up against Superboy or Supergirl and, despite being Kryptonians, he stands a chance because they are young, somewhat naive/idealistic and prone to lacking self-confidence.
If he stalls for time and works out some kind of trap or ambush, like he did against Superboy, he can get the win because he's smarter and his fighting style is unorthodox. If he takes his chance and doesn't take them down, however, he's probably screwed as then they'll realise how tricky he is and start to take the kid-gloves off.

Superboy i can perhaps understand. Since he isnt a pure kryptonian.
And so its hard to get a track of where his current power level lies.
But no. Not Super Girl. What sort of stalling are you going to pull off when your opponent moves faster than you can react to?
We have seen it in his fight with Quicksilver. Who moved so fast that the Spidersense didnt work, because there wasnt enough time between it triggering and Peter getting smacked.
Well unfortunately, Super Girl is faster than that. She is also stronger and tougher than anyone but the absolute top tier heroes like Thor.
Likely there isnt going to be any sort of fighting. Supergirl can litterally tug Peter under the arm before he can respond, then fly away to drop him off at some random uninhabited island.

[Kitten Champion]

They had a (notably weaker) villainous version of Spider-Man - with the serial numbers shaved off, obviously - in Young Justice.

Which left me with a "yeah, that's about where he'd pose a serious threat"-kind of thought. Though no one is accurate to their hugely inflated comic power-sets in those cartoons, I'm aware.

Still, against a group of lower-tier super-humans might work the best for that kind of equation.

[Traab]

I think canonically batman has had vastly superior training in hand to hand combat. There have been continuities where spiderman gets great training and excels at it, but of the two, its batman who you think of as the trained martial artist. Its like talking up superman and his martial art skills, yes, he has them, but you dont picture superman fighting with joint locks and hip tossing enemies, you picture him flying invulnerable chin first at the enemies fist then punching said enemy till whatever he is using to laughably think he is on par with superman breaks, either bones or mech suits or magical power sources. Its generally a far less common occurrence for superman to break out actual martial art styles in combat.

Back to the point I was originally trying to make, even though batman is probably technically far more proficient than spiderman in hand to hand combat, spidermans natural advantages are utterly obscene and yes, only bat god plot armor would protect him from being curb stomped in a straight up fight. Spiderman is far faster, stronger, more reactive, and agile than batman, his spider sense makes ambushes almost hilariously unlikely to work, and even if he did have some sort of advantage, spiderman, on a fairly regular basis, fights his rogues gallery six at a time in straight up combat. All of whom are fairly solid matchups for him one on one in a fight. Batman rarely fights his rogues gallery more than one on one, or at most a small group of them like 2-3. And he also usually has at least "a" robin with him, if not also bat girl depending on incarnations and continuities we are working with, along with the fact that like half or more of his rogues gallery are not very good at mano y mano fisticuffs.

[LibraryOgre]

IIRC they also had him subconsciously ditch a lot of subtle normal behavior, like looking both ways before crossing the street. To his detriment when he loses that power.

He visits the Night Nurse and she's like "I've never seen you in here for yourself, before" and his response is "Well, yeah, because spider-sense means not getting hit by bullets."

[leafman]

Steel? I was looking for mid-tier heroes because DC seems to have a dearth of popular ones. Steel came up in my search. His armor grants him super strength, flight, and durability. His hammer might prove problematic. I don't know though, all I can find is that his armor increases his strength and speed 10 fold in terms of limits. That doesn't give me hard numbers to compare. My level of knowledge in DC is lacking :/

[Peelee]

Actually, just exactly how super-human is Spider-Man? He regularly fights Doc Ock and Kingpin, both of whom are completely normal humans. Octavius has technology, but still has normal human reflexes (and, in some versions, this is also true of Green Goblin). Parker still has challenges taking them on, even Kingpin, who doesn't even have the benefit of technology augmenting his abilities. Kingpin also is able to hurt Spidey with his blows, meaning he can match or beat Spider-Man's speed, spider sense, and toughness. I think it's fairly safe to say that Batman could at least match Kingpin in speed and technique, if not power (Kingpin has significantly more mass). Kingpin's tactical abilities are also geared towards business/logistics and, to the best of my knowledge, has no formal hand-to-hand combat training. Batman, meanwhile, is a trained ninja.

So we have two possibilities that I see - either Spidey's powers and abilities are being greatly exaggerated, or he is deliberately holding back in multiple ways, most of which do not make sense. Not popping off Fisk's head with a punch is reasonable, sure, but why would he allow himself to be hit by Fisk, or act injured when the struck?

If one accepts that a fight with Kingpin is challenging, then would it not follow that a fight with Batman would be even moreso, given his combat training, gadgets, and improved reflexes and agility?

[Xyril]

Actually, just exactly how super-human is Spider-Man? He regularly fights Doc Ock and Kingpin, both of whom are completely normal humans.

Well, Otto does often gets a pretty strong edge through preparation, not only through the technology he keeps on himself, but also gangs of robots, gangs of other villains, manipulating circumstances to start a fight when Spidey is weakened, distracted, or otherwise disadvantage, etc. Plus, there was that whole arc where we find out that--despite using his expertise in cybernetics to seemingly hold his own against superpowered opponents--he's basically dying of some version of CTE from all of the blows Spidey landed to his sometimes-helmeted head over the years.

Plus, as someone else mentioned previously, those blows are definitely held back most of the time, even against moderately super-human or artificially augmented villains. Mac Gargan, IIRC, was biochemically enhanced on top of the heavy scorpion armor he was wearing when Superior smashed his face.

Kingpin's an interesting case. He's supposed to be the "fat but fit" version of peak human conditioning, close-to-superhuman-as-you-can-get-without-being-superhuman, and in the early fights, Spider-man was ironically the one who seriously underestimated him. In his more recent comics--especially some of the Daredevil runs--he seems to have lurched over that line at times for no apparent reason.

[Traab]

Kingpin is "worlds strongest man" built. In other words, he is a beer keg with limbs and can tow a tug boat across a lake if he wants. Seriously, watch one of those competitions, you wont see much in the way of pecs that dance or abs you can grate cheese with, but these guys are doing 100 yard dashes faster than me with a fridge strapped to their backs. And yes, spiderman is like superman in the "automatically holds back to not splatter his enemies" camp.

[TeChameleon]

Yeh, Kingpin is supposed to be enormously strong- like, upper-tier-peak-human, the wildly exaggerated comic-book-version. Also, he is well trained as a martial artist, specializing in sumo, and maybe ninjutsu..? Fuzzy on that one.

That being said, when Spidey visited him in prison after Kingpin's botched assassination attempt on Peter got Aunt May instead? In the Back in Black storyline? Dear old Petey-boy ruined Fisk in a one-on-one fistfight without so much as breaking a sweat. Just systematically dismantled him at speeds Kingpin couldn't even react to, much less fight against.

All that aside, Spider-Man's ability to combat upper-tier but still nominally 'normal' fighters has always been a bit odd. Captain America has been stated to be a match, maybe even more than a match, for Spidey. And Wolverine has fought him on equal footing as well, and Wolvie has been outmatched by normal or quasi-normal fighters before. *shrug* Comics doesn't have as clean-cut a squash-list ranking as we'd sometimes like.

Anywho, DC matches for Spidey. Hmm. The first Blue Beetle, Dan Garrett, might actually not be a bad matchup for Spidey, as he had boosted strength roughly in the same ballpark, flight, energy blasts and either armour or boosted durability (memory is fuzzy, and I'm not sure it was all that consistent in the old books anyways). Second Blue Beetle, Ted Kord, was in many ways Spidey's DC counterpart, and actually intimated he'd met Spider-Man at least once (Extreme Justice book, he used a 'polymer adhesive' grenade that he said he'd gotten the recipe for it from 'some guy he'd met passing through this universe'), but he was a dude with some gadgets and a lot of science smarts, and well below Spider-Man's weight class. Third Blue Beetle? Opposite problem. Jaime Reyes can slug it out toe-to-toe with Green Lanterns.

Guy Gardner-as-Warrior would... not be a great match for Spider-Man. Dude had strength approaching kryptonian levels, and could morph weapons out of his body that included controlled singularity grenades.

Some of Flash's Rogues would be interesting matchups, especially if they teamed up. Speedy dodging wouldn't exactly be surprising for them, and they've got enough super-tech going for them to keep them in a pretty heavy fight.

Count Vertigo would be a brutal match for Spidey if he didn't get cocky, and unfortunately that's about as likely as Batman not being grumpy. It would probably go down with Vertigo calling Spidey 'peasant' after screwing with his sense of balance once, then getting punched out when Peter shook it off way faster than anticipated.

Black Canary could give Spidey a heck of a fight- she's tough and fast enough to not go down easy, and smart enough to know that Spider-Man outclasses her physically... cue omnidirectional Canary Cry and, well...

Mr. Miracle could potentially be a great match as well, as long as he wasn't in Highfather mode, anyways.

[Wraith]

And yes, spiderman is like superman in the "automatically holds back to not splatter his enemies" camp.

This is what I was going to suggest - any time that Spider-Man gets physically beaten by an opponent who is anything less than Superman/Thor levels of strength, is because it's his World Of Cardboard Speech (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WorldOfCardboardSpeech). He has to start out 'softly' because most people he fights, there's a genuine risk that he could punch them and put his fist clean through their head - instead he has to be gentle, which means he sometimes misjudges it and gets beaten up before he can find his opponents' "level" where he can effectively hurt them without killing them.

He's also a neurotic teenager/young adult, which means that if you put him in front of Captain America he's probably not going to fight at his best out of sheer awe and hero worship. Believing in himself and his own value as a hero has always been one of Spidey's weakest points and is often what comes back to bite him in the butt. When he gets over that, like he did in Back In Black and when he finally caught up to Sin-Eater, there's not a lot that can stop him.

One contest - and I use that word because "fight" isn't really appropriate - that I'd like to see would be Spider-Man against someone like The Riddler. Edward Nigma is physically no match, but I really, really enjoy him when he's written as sinister and sadistic much like he is in the Arkham series of games. Having the riddles and puzzles solved by Batman was okay, but Bats never really commented on the trials or how he solved them - putting Spider-Man in the same position, talking back to Riddler and seeing him solve similar puzzles with his own suite of powers would be a lot of fun.
Both are genius-level intellects so the puzzles could get pretty obtuse, as well as lethal in a way above what Batman has to put up with; Nigma always wants to show Batman how smart he is so the traps are keyed to frustrate an exemplary, but still normal, human being - imagine what he could do if his opponent was stronger and faster and could take much more punishment in the process? :smallsmile:

[Peelee]

Well, Otto does often gets a pretty strong edge through preparation, not only through the technology he keeps on himself, but also gangs of robots, gangs of other villains, manipulating circumstances to start a fight when Spidey is weakened, distracted, or otherwise disadvantage, etc. Plus, there was that whole arc where we find out that--despite using his expertise in cybernetics to seemingly hold his own against superpowered opponents--he's basically dying of some version of CTE from all of the blows Spidey landed to his sometimes-helmeted head over the years.

Plus, as someone else mentioned previously, those blows are definitely held back most of the time, even against moderately super-human or artificially augmented villains. Mac Gargan, IIRC, was biochemically enhanced on top of the heavy scorpion armor he was wearing when Superior smashed his face.

Kingpin's an interesting case. He's supposed to be the "fat but fit" version of peak human conditioning, close-to-superhuman-as-you-can-get-without-being-superhuman, and in the early fights, Spider-man was ironically the one who seriously underestimated him. In his more recent comics--especially some of the Daredevil runs--he seems to have lurched over that line at times for no apparent reason.


Kingpin is "worlds strongest man" built. In other words, he is a beer keg with limbs and can tow a tug boat across a lake if he wants. Seriously, watch one of those competitions, you wont see much in the way of pecs that dance or abs you can grate cheese with, but these guys are doing 100 yard dashes faster than me with a fridge strapped to their backs. And yes, spiderman is like superman in the "automatically holds back to not splatter his enemies" camp.
Yes, but I'm not questioning Spider-Man's holding back. I'm questioning his speed, agility, and toughness, if Kingpin and Doc Ock are able to hit and wound him. Pete doesn't hold back on his dodges or pretend to be hurt when he isn't, as far as I know.

Short version, I'm not talking about Spider-Man's offense, I'm talking about his defense vs Batman's offense.

[Friv]

Kingpin's an interesting case. He's supposed to be the "fat but fit" version of peak human conditioning, close-to-superhuman-as-you-can-get-without-being-superhuman, and in the early fights, Spider-man was ironically the one who seriously underestimated him. In his more recent comics--especially some of the Daredevil runs--he seems to have lurched over that line at times for no apparent reason.

One way in which the Marvel Universe is peak comics is that it basically assumes that people can just train their way up to levels of speed and strength that would be flat-out impossible in the real world. The Kingpin is a particular example; his body is "98% muscle" because of how much training he did, and as a result he has done things in the past such as having a safe that was just a big metal door no one but him could lift.

Checking on his stats, he's apparently been listed as having the ability to lift 650 lbs over his head, which makes him stronger than the current world champion weightlifter, while also being much faster and more agile. I know that there was a comic in which Kingpin punched an oak desk in half while aiming for Spiderman, and he's outfought Captain America and the Red Skull, both of whom are serum-enhanced.

[Clertar]

In other words, the Kingpin is Marvel Comics's Batman :smallbiggrin:

[Cikomyr2]

I would never have Batman attack Spiderman. Doesn't make sense. Batman attack someone's weak point.

I would have Batman Attack Peter Parker.

Wayne Enterprises buys out the Daily Bugle and blackballs Peter Parker. Makes sure Mary Jane has no more acting opportunity as long as she associates with Peter.

In the meanwhile, leave a trail of crumbles so Peter can trace back his misfortune into a set trap. Maybe an environment without friction?

[Xyril]

Yes, but I'm not questioning Spider-Man's holding back. I'm questioning his speed, agility, and toughness, if Kingpin and Doc Ock are able to hit and wound him. Pete doesn't hold back on his dodges or pretend to be hurt when he isn't, as far as I know.


Speaking from experience, if you're mainly trained to be an offensive fighter and you have substantial constraints on how hard or how much you can attack, then your ability to defend often suffers as well. At least, that seems to be the case without the benefit of Spider-sense, anyway.

Also, I'm pretty sure Spider-man can heal better than most and is a bit more durable than a normal human, but he doesn't have Superman levels of nigh-invulnerability. I can see the argument that with Spider-sense, he maybe shouldn't be getting hit at all by guys limited to normal human reflexes, but I don't think anything in the comics implies that he couldn't be injured unless it was the Hulk doing the hitting. Plus, Doc Ock isn't punching with his pudgy scientist-fists--he's using cybernetic arms that are strong enough to rip bank vaults open. Even with slightly superhuman toughness, that'll probably hurt.

As for Kingpin, like Friv said, Marvel really stretches credulity with the limits of what peak unenhanced human means. I don't remember if it was during Civil War I in the main continuity, or if it was the version in the Ultimate universe, but minor character MVP was basically a guy who was raised by great trainers and nutritionists and achieved such a high level of ability that people refused to believe that his grandfather (who was tangentially involved in either the U.S. or German super-soldier program) didn't secretly recreate the formula.


Maybe an environment without friction?

Everything else is a pretty good idea, but I don't think this would be a great trap. Friction only works if there's a normal force into the surface, and even then only produces a force tangential to the surface. Since Spider-man can hang upside-down from ceilings, it's not (only) friction at work. IIRC the early explanations involved tiny spider hairs or something like that, so maybe friction would mitigate his abilities slightly, but honestly the way his powers are depicted he pretty much has to be operating primarily using van der Waals forces, like geckos do. The unexpected change would probably throw him off, but given that his character is known for science and improvisation, he'd probably adapt to and take advantage of a frictionless environment faster than most.

[Peelee]

I would argue that most comics about normal-human superheroes/villains stretches the credulity of peak human ability. Batman would be pretty analogous to an Octavius/Fisk hybrid; he doesn't have the raw strength and power of Fisk, but is still a trained ninja and at peak physical ability, and he doesn't have the cybernetics of Octavius but still has an entire multinational mega-corporation's worth of money and technology to be repurposed at his disposal and the genius to use those resources effectively.

So I actually think Batman would be a great answer to the original question of what DC character would be along the same level of Spider-Man.

[Sapphire Guard]

Maybe some of Bats' more durable villains, a la Croc or Bane.

Batman... honestly, I don't really think so. They could both beat each other in certain circumstances, but in either case it wouldn't be an 'even' fight, whoever held the advantage would keep it.

Re avoiding attacks, very possibly Kingpin can hurt Spiderman (cause pain) without necessarily injuring him, so he'd still want to avoid the strikes even if they weren't all that dangerous to him.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I think a match up with Wonder Woman would be a lot closer than most think because she actually can be hurt somewhat by bullets, which means Spidey would be able to hurt her. And he is fast enough to avoid her attacks. IIRC in a DC/Marvel crossover Spidey and WW did meet. WW thought Spidey was a villain and went to attack. Spidey dodged and took out the lights. This left WW holding a glowing lasso making her a great target in the dark. Spidey came up behind her and pointed that out and it convinced WW he was not the bad guy.

Wonder Woman has an odd vulnerability to piercing weapons (bullets, swords, knives), but her highest demonstrated reaction speed is literally absurd. Thousands of times light-speed absurd.

Spider Sense gives Spidey perfect spacial awareness, which combined with his own impressive reflexes makes him incredibly hard to hit... but I don't think he stands a ghost of a chance against someone as fast and strong as WW.

EDIT: RE Batman, I'll stand by Death Battle's analysis. Without prep time, Spider Sense is a hard counter to Batman. Spider-man is too tough and has too good a healing factor to be taken out in one shot by any of Batman's standard tricks, and his perfect spatial awareness and high intelligence means he won't fall for any trick more than once. The more prep-time given, the more it favors Batman, though.

I'll second The Riddler being an interesting long-term match up.

[Peelee]

Wonder Woman['s]... highest demonstrated reaction speed is literally absurd. Thousands of times light-speed absurd.

Spider Sense gives Spidey perfect spacial awareness.
Yeah I'm gonna ask for a source on both those.

[HandofShadows]

Maybe an environment without friction?

Wouldn't work. Spidey can stick to teflon. His wall crawling abilities manipulate electrostatic forces and he can support several tons on just one finger. He can also stick with other parts of his body, though not as strongly and he doesn't do it often. The problem of leading Spidey into a trap is that his Spider Sense would pick it up before the trap could be sprung. (Unless there is a bad writer.)

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Yeah I'm gonna ask for a source on both those.

I'm quoting Death Battle for both.

It looks like the thousands of times light-speed is referencing Wonder Woman V2 194?, where she blocks thousands of "god shards" that traveled from the "edges of the universe" to her location in a matter of seconds, so "thousands of times light-speed" is actually underselling it by quite a bit even if we assume "edges of the universe" = "edges of the visible universe". Oh, and she helped drag the Earth out of it's orbit, which is rather far out of Spidey's league in the strength department as well. (These feats are all referenced in the Wonder Woman vs Thor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp-bjnn_aOE) Death Battle).

The Spider Man vs Batman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8K1m6SCRz4) Death Battle doesn't cite what comic the Spider Sense = perfect spatial awareness comes from, but does note it's the canon explanation for why he doesn't need to look where he's shooting webs to swing around the city. It also matches pretty exactly with the scene in the 2002 film when he first uses Spider Sense and it shows time slowing down and him being able to perceive everything around him, from paper planes behind his head to what everyone else in the hallway is doing to a random fly on the wall.

[Cikomyr2]

Wouldn't work. Spidey can stick to teflon. His wall crawling abilities manipulate electrostatic forces and he can support several tons on just one finger. He can also stick with other parts of his body, though not as strongly and he doesn't do it often. The problem of leading Spidey into a trap is that his Spider Sense would pick it up before the trap could be sprung. (Unless there is a bad writer.)

So an electrocharged environment that prevents any sticking?

[Xyril]

Wonder Woman has an odd vulnerability to piercing weapons (bullets, swords, knives)

So you've found her weakness, and it's small knives?



Yeah I'm gonna ask for a source on both those.

Yeah, Spider-sense is weird. I remember a few issues where it was stated that--due to the web-of-life connection--Spider-sense is actually limited precognition. In other words, better than what can be achieved by perfect spatial awareness.

However, it more often than not falls well short of even limited spatial awareness because Spider-man doesn't have access to all of the information that implies, or doesn't know how to properly interpret it. He's been able to "hack" his spider-sense a few times (that's how he detects his spider-tracers) but he doesn't have conscious access to most of the implicit knowledge that should go into knowing "I'm in danger, danger is over there."

I think this actually works pretty well in justifying the inconsistencies in combat performance you see in comics. If he punches well above his weight class (i.e., that time when he beat up all of the X-men), you could argue that it's plausible if he happened to be in the zone that day (particularly in tune with his Spider-sense and instinctively able to respond properly) and pretty much any opponent could be caught unprepared to beat literal, short-term precognition.

Conversely, you could completely take away his advantage simply by saying he's having a particularly bad day--I think most of us can remember times when we inexplicably fail to follow our instincts or our training, even though it should be second-nature. I vaguely remember a few arcs where some villain tried to catch him off guard by simply exposing him to constant, serious dangers that either never materialized or didn't end up directed at him, and he ended up having trouble picking up the signal out of all of the noise.

[HolyDraconus]

Would Sideways work as an opponent for Spidey? And why does everyone forget that the Joker is nearly on par with Batman in hand to hand combat?

[Blackhawk748]

Seriously Spider-Man is stronger and faster than Terry McGinnis with the Batman Beyond suit. Spider-Man is taking down anyone who is not in Wonderwoman / Aquaman’s weight class.

It's why all of his Villains get really, really scared when he stops making jokes. Cuz that's when he starts chucking buses.

[Cikomyr2]

Would Sideways work as an opponent for Spidey? And why does everyone forget that the Joker is nearly on par with Batman in hand to hand combat?

Because the Joker is akin to an Atreides to Batman's Foreteller.

Batman is stupidly intelligent. So much that it's an annoying meme, and he fights through incredible knowledge and technique, but also observation of his opponent and anticipation.

The Joker is unreadable, unpredictable. That's why he is Batman's nemesis. It's like a future-teller fighting against the one who can break Destiny. Batman is permanently at a disadvantage when fighting the Joker compared to his usual self.

Spider just punch hard as ****, fast as ****, and can actually read the future by a quarter second when it's a matter of danger.

[Peelee]

I actually get really annoyed when Joker can competently fight Batman without rampant cheating. The best Joker fights are when he has his goons to beef up the numbers or when he outright cheats or uses other unfair advantages (basically, all his fights in the Arkham games are great representations).

[Sapphire Guard]

Would Sideways work as an opponent for Spidey? And why does everyone forget that the Joker is nearly on par with Batman in hand to hand combat?

Because he's not.

Generally, it goes: Joker + Deathtrap + henchmen v Batman. I can't think of a Bats v Joker confrontation off hand that is actually a fair encounter, he always builds the environment to his advantage and tends to leverage hostages against Bats and still lose.

[Traab]

Because he's not.

Generally, it goes: Joker + Deathtrap + henchmen v Batman. I can't think of a Bats v Joker confrontation off hand that is actually a fair encounter, he always builds the environment to his advantage and tends to leverage hostages against Bats and still lose.

Yeah ive always seen it along the lines of, "Ok, you fought your way through the gauntlet of goons, traps, hostages to be saved from deathtraps, and general chaos I add at random from my control center, you are bruised, bleeding, battered, and tired, LETS FIGHT!" /joker loses after getting a couple good shots in.

[HolyDraconus]

So no love for Sideways? As for Joker, he proved that he was. It was hinted at throughout the series and was outright stated in Batman Beyond that he's really that good of a fighter. In his own words " its hard to fight someone that skilled that often and not learn a few things" or something to that effect.

[Peelee]

So no love for Sideways? As for Joker, he proved that he was. It was hinted at throughout the series and was outright stated in Batman Beyond that he's really that good of a fighter. In his own words " its hard to fight someone that skilled that often and not learn a few things" or something to that effect.

By that logic Kareem Abdul Jabbar could have dominated the fight scene if he'd made a few more movies with Bruce Lee.

Jokers own words don't count for much, is what I'm saying.

[JNAProductions]

So no love for Sideways? As for Joker, he proved that he was. It was hinted at throughout the series and was outright stated in Batman Beyond that he's really that good of a fighter. In his own words " its hard to fight someone that skilled that often and not learn a few things" or something to that effect.

I don't think anyone doubts that Joker is a GOOD fighter, but the question is "Is he equal to Batman?" Which, I think we can say, is a solid no. Given that, as mentioned above, Batman generally owns his butt even AFTER going through his goons and traps.

[HolyDraconus]

By that logic Kareem Abdul Jabbar could have dominated the fight scene if he'd made a few more movies with Bruce Lee.

Jokers own words don't count for much, is what I'm saying.

Bruce backed him on that in Beyond tho...

[Peelee]

Bruce backed him on that in Beyond tho...

Did he? Is been a while since I've seen it, but did Bruce admit Joker was a good hand-to-hand combatant? Or did he just call him dangerous?

[HolyDraconus]

Did he? Is been a while since I've seen it, but did Bruce admit Joker was a good hand-to-hand combatant? Or did he just call him dangerous?

Its been awhile too. He probably said dangerous.

[Keltest]

Its also worth pointing out that the Joker cheats. Batman may be a better martial artist, but that doesn't really matter if the Joker is willing to just electrocute you into submission.

[Ramza00]

Batman: Let's dance, bozo.
[As they fight, Joker gets the upper hand]
Batman: [To Bruce, through comlink] He's tough. Any suggestions, boss?
Bruce Wayne: Joker's vain and likes to talk. He'll try to distract you, but don't listen. Block it out and power on through.

The full conversation is here (not the whole script), but those are the only words Bruce said to Terry over the comlink right before Terry engaged with the Joker.

https://transcripts.fandom.com/wiki/Batman_Beyond:_Return_of_the_Joker

[Peelee]

I think the overall point here is we should all have a Batman Beyond watch party.

[Ramza00]

i think the overall point here is we should all have a batman beyond watch party.

Sway!

🦇🦇🦇🦇🦇

[HolyDraconus]

Sway!

🦇🦇🦇🦇🦇

I can easily get behind this

[Traab]

Sway!

🦇🦇🦇🦇🦇

/pedant nerd voice "I believe its pronounced, SCHWAY!

[Ramza00]

/pedant nerd voice "I believe its pronounced, SCHWAY!

Only Talia gets to tell me how to properly pronounce words :smallwink:

Begone to the Phantom Zone!:smallbiggrin:

[Clertar]

I actually get really annoyed when Joker can competently fight Batman without rampant cheating. The best Joker fights are when he has his goons to beef up the numbers or when he outright cheats or uses other unfair advantages (basically, all his fights in the Arkham games are great representations).

I echo the sentiment. It's utterly uninteresting when the Joker is a physical threat or menace to Batman. The way Nolan portrayed him is a great example: Batman can kick the Joker's a∫∫ any time, but the battle is not about that and the Joker's edge is on an orthogonal level:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDVWr93Z9Yc