Arcane Archer balance

[spbtc]

I'm just started DMing my first 5e campaign and one of my players has started a dex-based fighter with plans to spec into Arcane Archer. I don't have any real experience with fighters (the campaign I play in has none), so I don't really know how they scale as they level up. But in reading the description it seems that AA are a bit underpowered, specifically in only getting Imbue Arrow twice per rest. Now I know fighters get lots of other goodies as they level, and a skilled archer can be formidable, but the specifics of their subclass seem a bit anemic, especially in the mid levels.

What are others experiences with this class?

[jaappleton]

I'm just started DMing my first 5e campaign and one of my players has started a dex-based fighter with plans to spec into Arcane Archer. I don't have any real experience with fighters (the campaign I play in has none), so I don't really know how they scale as they level up. But in reading the description it seems that AA are a bit underpowered, specifically in only getting Imbue Arrow twice per rest. Now I know fighters get lots of other goodies as they level, and a skilled archer can be formidable, but the specifics of their subclass seem a bit anemic, especially in the mid levels.

What are others experiences with this class?

I love the AA.... in concept.

However, its mechanically pretty darn weak, as you know. One thing I've seen is the following adjustments:

1. You can use a number of Arcane Shots equal to your Intelligence Modifier per short rest
2. Remove the restriction in the wording which prevents it from working with Crossbows of all sorts

[Eldariel]

I'm just started DMing my first 5e campaign and one of my players has started a dex-based fighter with plans to spec into Arcane Archer. I don't have any real experience with fighters (the campaign I play in has none), so I don't really know how they scale as they level up. But in reading the description it seems that AA are a bit underpowered, specifically in only getting Imbue Arrow twice per rest. Now I know fighters get lots of other goodies as they level, and a skilled archer can be formidable, but the specifics of their subclass seem a bit anemic, especially in the mid levels.

What are others experiences with this class?

It's a decent class but it could use more different shots as it levels up. Being restricted to just two is highly annoying especially since most of them are save-gated. That said, some of them are quite strong and Fighter is at least a decent damage dealer if nothing else across their career. I don't think giving it few extra arrows known would hurt and perhaps some crafting or whatever-related utility too.

[Yakk]

The Fighter is a solid chassis. The BM is an over-powerful subclass of the Fighter.

But it isn't that far in damage behind the BM. It generally deals 2d6 (7) instead of 1d8 (4.5) per use and gets 2 instead of 4 uses.

So 7*2 = 14, vs 4.5*4 = 18. Only a small edge in damage to BM. The Arcane Archer on-hit effects are generally much stronger than the BM ones (like, AOE 10' damage, Charm, halve damage, Nasty pseudo-grapple, nearly blind).

It lacks something as strong as Riposte on the BM.

But, for example, SS+AA level 4 18 dex with a +1 longbow.

+10 to hit, 1d8+5 damage or +5 to hit, 1d8+15 damage.

Use seeking shot and you deal 1d8+1d6+15 damage (save for half) on a save.

Curving Shot against non-bosses is a lot like a bonus action attack, which is nice.

[Lupine]

As a DM, one of my players joined the group while we were at level 11, and asked me to make build for him. (His first time playing)

I had the same initial reaction: this is too weak.

First, lets talk about why to leave it as is:
•its simple, and allows the the AA to flavor a few attacks.
•It’s short rest dependent, so you get them back quickly
•The other features are fairly good (curving shot, for example.)

Now, why to change it:
•At fifth level, you can blow all uses in one turn.
•monks, the major short-rest dependent class get many more uses of ki, making this not comparable (you might do better going monk kensei for an archer build)
•up until 18th level, and after level ten, the 2d6 is basically meaningless. At level 18, 4d6 doesn’t mean much either, but meh.

And some ideas how to beef up AA, if you decide to do so. (I would recommend that you NOT take all of these, because it would make AA too powerful):
•Amount of uses equal to proficiency bonus (scaling amount)
•When a creature is required to make a save, due to an arrow, it suffers the effects until it succeeds the save (re-rolled at the end of their turn)
•Can choose to spend hit-dice to add to damage beyond the 2d6. This plays well with the short rest regen, because they choose to exchange some very limited resources for extra damage.
•Ensure a steady supply of magical ammo. You’re the DM, make it happen.

Lastly, if you don’t want to give AA a power creep, you can design encounters with the AA in mind, where his or her ammo could almost trivialize the encounter, or otherwise make a massive contribution. The player will enjoy feeling important, and the party will like that they found the “way put”
A note on that, however, do not make the AA required for success, and do not make the AA targets obvious, or even frequent. You want the players to think:
“Wow, we just used our AA to overcome a great disadvantage.”
Not:
“Wow, an encounter where the DM’s favorite character outshined us. Again.”
That’s most of what I can think of, let me know if you need any more advice, and happy DMing, dude

[Lupine]

You can use a number of Arcane Shots equal to your Intelligence Modifier per short rest

Oops, missed that option. That would also work.

[Yakk]

You can also rebuild it as a 1/3 Ki caster (where a monk is a 1/2 Ki caster).

Monks get 1 pt/level/rest, and that pt is worth 5-9 damage with a miss chance; so 4-7 damage.

A 1/3 Ki caster gets 2/3 of a pt/level/rest. That is an awkward amount.

Here goes:

Arcane Archer Lore

At 3rd level, you learn magical theory or some of the secrets of nature – typical for practitioners of of this elven martial tradition. You choose to gain proficiency in either the Arcana or the Nature skill, and you choose to learn either the Prestidigitation or Druidcraft cantrip.
Arcane Shot

At 3rd level, you learn to unleash special magical effects with some of your shots. When you gain this feature, you learn two Arcane Shot options of your choice (see "Arcane Shot Options" below).

You have 2d6 Arcane Dice at level 1, and gain an additional one at level 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18.

Once per turn when you fire an arrow from a shortbow or longbow as part of the Attack action, you can apply one of your Arcane Shot options to that arrow. You decide to use the option when the arrow hits, unless the option doesn’t involve an attack roll. They have a cost in Arcane Dice.

You regain 1 Arcane Die on a short rest and all of them on a long rest. At level 11 you regain 2 Arcane Dice on a short rest, at at level 17 you regain 3. At level 11 your Arcane Dice become d8s.

You gain an additional Arcane Shot option of your choice when you reach certain levels in this class: 7th, 10th, 15th, and 18th level.

Magic Arrow

At 7th level, you gain the ability to infuse arrows with magic. Whenever you fire a nonmagical arrow from a shortbow or longbow, you can make it a +1 magical arrow. The magic fades from the arrow immediately after it hits or misses its target.

Curving Shot

At 7th level, you learn how to direct an errant arrow toward a new target. When you make an attack roll with a magic arrow and miss, you can use a bonus action to reroll the attack roll against a target within 60 feet of the original target. If you pick the original target, the reroll is at disadvantage.

Ever-Ready Shot

Starting at 15th level, your magical archery is always available. You can use an arcane shot that cost 1 arcane die for free on your turn.

Arcane Shot Options

The Arcane Shot feature lets you choose options for it at certain levels. The options are presented here in alphabetical order. They are all magical effects, and each one is associated with one of the schools of magic.

If an option requires a saving throw, your Arcane Shot save DC equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier.

Banishing Arrow. Costs 2 Arcane Dice. You use abjuration magic to try to temporarily banish your target to a harmless location in the Feywild. The creature hit by the arrow must also succeed on a Charisma saving throw or be banished. While banished in this way, its speed is 0, and it is incapacitated. At the end of its next turn, the target reappears in the space it vacated or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied.

Beguiling Arrow. Costs up to 4 Arcane Dice. Your enchantment magic causes this arrow to temporarily beguile its target. The creature hit by the arrow takes an extra arcane dice in psychic damage, and choose one of your allies within 30 feet of the target. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw, or it is charmed by the chosen ally until the start of your next turn. This effect ends early if the chosen ally attacks the charmed target, deals damage to it, or forces it to make a saving throw.

Bursting Arrow. Costs up to 3 Arcane Dice. You imbue your arrow with force energy drawn from the school of evocation. The arrow detonates after your attack. Immediately after the arrow hits the creature, the target and all other creatures within 10 feet of it take your arcane dice in force damage.

Enfeebling Arrow. Costs up to 4 Arcane Dice. You weave necromantic magic into your arrow. The creature hit by the arrow takes extra arcane dice in necrotic damage. The target must also succeed on a Constitution saving throw, or the damage dealt by its weapon attacks is halved until the start of your next turn.

Grasping Arrow. Costs up to 3 Arcane Dice. When this arrow strikes its target, conjuration magic creates grasping, poisonous brambles, which wrap around the target. The creature hit by the arrow takes extra arcane dice poison damage, its speed is reduced by 10 feet, and it takes the same arcane dice in slashing damage the first time on each turn it moves 1 foot or more without teleporting. The target or any creature that can reach it can use its action to remove the brambles with a successful Strength (Athletics) check against your Arcane Shot save DC. Otherwise, the brambles last for 1 minute or until you use this option again.

Piercing Arrow. Costs 2 or 4 Arcane Dice. You use transmutation magic to give your arrow an ethereal quality. When you use this option, you don’t make an attack roll for the attack. Instead, the arrow fires forward in a line, which is 1 foot wide and 30 feet long, before disappearing. The arrow passes harmlessly through objects, ignoring cover. Each creature in that line must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes damage as if it were hit by the arrow, plus an extra one arcane die (two dice of damage if you spend 4 dice) piercing damage. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage.

Seeking Arrow. Cost 1 or 2 Arcane Dice. Using divination magic, you grant your arrow the ability to seek out your target, allowing the arrow to curve and twist its path in search of its prey. When you use this option, you don’t make an attack roll for the attack. Instead, choose one creature you have seen in the past minute. The arrow flies toward that creature, moving around corners if necessary and ignoring three-quarters cover and half cover. If the target is within the weapon’s range and there is a path large enough for the arrow to travel to the target, the target must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, it takes damage as if it were hit by the arrow, plus an extra arcane dice in force damage, and you learn the target’s current location. On a successful save, the target takes half as much damage, and you don’t learn its location.

Shadow Arrow. Costs 1 to 4 arcane dice. You weave illusion magic into your arrow, causing it to occlude your foe’s vision with shadows. The creature hit by the arrow takes extra arcane dice in psychic damage, and it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be unable to see anything farther than 5 feet away until the start of your next turn.

[Man_Over_Game]

At the end of the day, it's a Fighter, and Fighters do well enough, balance-wise, regardless of what subclass they pick.

The issue is that it's so friggin' boring.

Ranged combat is inherently more boring than melee combat, since things like positioning, Opportunity Attacks, and counter attacks are all less common. The Arcane Archer only gains features that improve ranged attacks. And yet, the Fighter is generally a class that does both rather well. Continuing to play it as a ranged character after expending your resources, just to get use out of your passive powers, feels like a waste when considering the rest of the Fighter chassis.
In comparison, the Ranger has more offensive abilities in the chassis (like spells) where Fighters have more defense, so why is the defensive class only doing ranged damage? Even most of the Ranger's ranged features (like Entangling Shot) are usable at range, not restricted to them.

Additionally, the AA's resources are extremely limited. Twice-per-day can you do your main subclass feature, on a class that attacks 1-4 times per day.

Combine both, and you have one of the dullest subclasses in the game, without having the luxury of simplicity like the Champion. Fire a cannon, spend the rest of the fight moving in circles as you shoot things with basic attacks.

A solution I'd recommend is simply just this:

An Arcane Archer must spend a Bonus Action before he attacks to fire his Arcane Shot, but Arcane Shot no longer has a limited number of uses.

At levels 10 and 15, you gain an additional use of Arcane Shot that does not consume your Bonus Action, which are expended when used until you complete a Long Rest.

Additionally, Curving Shot now costs your Reaction.

This lowers the overall power of Arcane Shot, while also allowing you to use it every single turn. Removing options for your Reaction actually makes the Fighter's player feel content with their decision to be a ranged character, as a Reaction on a Fighter is a resource that should be regularly relevant. You spend your Bonus Action, Reaction, 2-3 attacks and tried to make something explode by positioning yourself accordingly; a pretty satisfying turn for a ranged character.

[stoutstien]

Yea over all AA is an ok option just really boring and one dimensional

[spbtc]

I love the AA.... in concept.

However, its mechanically pretty darn weak, as you know. One thing I've seen is the following adjustments:

1. You can use a number of Arcane Shots equal to your Intelligence Modifier per short rest
2. Remove the restriction in the wording which prevents it from working with Crossbows of all sorts

Yeah, I agree that being able to use Arcane Shot more would make it more interesting. My player kind of latched on to the druid side of Arcane Archer and went with a higher WIS than INT - I'm going to let him base his Arcane Shots on WIS. So we'll let him base this on his WIS modifier. (I also have a feeling that he may dual with Druid or Ranger at some point.)

[Man_Over_Game]

I bet it wouldn't take much work to convert the AA into a half-Warlock that regains spell slots on a Short Rest, and doesn't upgrade those spell slots until level 18. Then just limit the Arcane Shots to only be allowed to use Fighter spell slots (similar to Eldritch Smite).

That way, there's some direct synergy between the Ranger and the Fighter in being able to shoot enhanced shots.

[MaxWilson]

Yea over all AA is an ok option just really boring and one dimensional

...which isn't necessarily bad. Someone who's attracted to playing an Arcane Archer specifically, instead of a switch-hitting Dex-y Eldritch Knight Sharpshooter who also shines in melee thanks to Shadow Blade, may have chosen Arcane Archer specifically because they're not comfortable with complexity.

The key thing is that you don't want someone who does choose Arcane Archer, hoping for one thing, to come away disappointed that they didn't get it. The suggestions in this thread are good ones toward that end.

Me personally, in my house rules I just let them have 3 shots per short rest instead of 2, but then again, no one's ever taken me up on that offer so who knows if it's generous enough.

[ad_hoc]

We have a 6th level Arcane Archer at the table and they are doing just fine. They do the most damage of any character.

Next level they will be getting a huge buff with magic attacks and the bending arrow Bonus Action to reroll.

[Man_Over_Game]

...which isn't necessarily bad. Someone who's attracted to playing an Arcane Archer specifically, instead of a switch-hitting Dex-y Eldritch Knight Sharpshooter who also shines in melee thanks to Shadow Blade, may have chosen Arcane Archer specifically because they're not comfortable with complexity.

I can get that, but that could have just been accomplished by playing a Samurai or Champion. The Arcane Archer is this weird hybrid of requiring more bookkeeping than the Battlemaster, yet spends most of its time doing the most simple things you could do as the game's simplest class.

It basically encompasses the worst parts of both the complex and simple options in the game, which obviously results in something worse than both. There's not really a kind of player that wouldn't have more fun just playing something else.

[MaxWilson]

I can get that, but that could have just been accomplished by playing a Samurai or Champion.

I don't see how. Neither the Samurai nor the Champion serves the "magic arrow" fantasy. If you want to be Hank, the Ranger from the D&D cartoon, Samurai and Champion have nothing for you, but Arcane Archer sort of does (although like all things 5E it's mostly combat-focused). Emphasis mine:

Hank, the Ranger (voiced by Willie Aames): At 15 years of age,[3] he is the leader of the group. Hank is brave and noble, maintaining a focus and determination even when presented with grave danger. Hank is a Ranger, with a magical bow that shoots arrows of glowing energy. These arrows could be used in many different ways such as a climbing tool, to hurt enemies, to bind them or to create light. His deepest fear is a failure to be a leader ("Quest of the Skeleton Warrior"). Twice he does fail as a leader: making the wrong decision trying to save Bobby from Venger ("The Traitor") and disobeying Dungeon Master's instructions ("The Dungeon at the Heart of Dawn"). Only once does his anger and frustration at not going home result in uncontrollable rage at Venger ("The Dragon's Graveyard"). Of all the kids, Venger regards Hank as his most personal enemy ("The Dungeon at the Heart of Dawn").


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_(TV_series)

If you want to be a magical archer who is very powerful, complex, and versatile both in ranged combat and melee, choose Eldritch Knight. If you want to be a magic archer who is simple and one-dimensional, choose Arcane Archer. The question is, is it too weak to make that fantasy fulfilling?

My view is that slightly increasing the number of magic shots eases the psychological pressure to conserve them. Shooting two arrows and having one in reserve that you may or may not eventually use feels different than shooting two arrows and then being out of arrows. I want the arrows to feel plentiful without being unlimited.

[ad_hoc]

I can get that, but that could have just been accomplished by playing a Samurai or Champion. The Arcane Archer is this weird hybrid of requiring more bookkeeping than the Battlemaster, yet spends most of its time doing the most simple things you could do as the game's simplest class.

It basically encompasses the worst parts of both the complex and simple options in the game, which obviously results in something worse than both. There's not really a kind of player that wouldn't have more fun just playing something else.

That's just not true.

The subclass properly feels like an Arcane Archer and if that is what the player wants then it does the job. It's basically an Eldritch Knight only themed for archery.

Also, we have a player at my table who is having a blast playing one.

[Man_Over_Game]

It's basically an Eldritch Knight only themed for archery.

But what about the Eldritch Knight couldn't have done the same?

The world "Melee" isn't mentioned anywhere in the subclass.
The Wizard spell list is more catered towards a ranged caster than a melee one.

Unless we're talking about something like Shield, there's no real reason an Eldritch Knight would actually perform better in melee combat. Even if you included the Shield spell as a reason to be a melee character vs. ranged, that's also saying that Wizards shouldn't take Shield because they wouldn't get much value out of it as a ranged character.

------------------

What niche was the Arcane Archer supposed to fill, when almost every Fighter subclass does ranged combat better than melee combat, as a class with more core defensive powers than almost every other choice?

They could have made it add something unique to ranged combat, like piercing arrows for basic attacks, or teleporting behind a guy you just shot, or SOMETHING. Instead, it basically boils down to "Cast 2 spells per day" and "get the Archery Fighting Style a second time". Which isn't much different than the Action Surge and Archery Style playstyle any other ranged Fighter would have been doing.

I feel like the Battlemaster has more of a reason to be a ranged character, honestly. It utilizes mechanics that are more relevant to a ranged attacker, like Prone, pushing a creature back, or taunting a creature. But more importantly, it works off the theory that you're going to be constantly attacking, where the Arcane Archer works perfectly fine if you seldom attack, and which of the two better describes a melee or a ranged character?

[Dienekes]

But what about the Eldritch Knight couldn't have done the same?

Well, I'm not all that knowledgeable about the EK's spell list. But I would assume they don't really have many spells that deal effects against people after you shoot them with arrows first. The best spells I know to model that whole "my attack is the spell!" feature are all 5 ft reach limited.

[MaxWilson]

But what about the Eldritch Knight couldn't have done the same?

Didn't we just cover this?

Eldritch Knights can do the same. EKs make fantastic archers. But to repeat post #12, an Arcane Archer can also fulfill the same fantasy, without as much complexity. Instead of having to familiarize yourself with dozens of wizard spells, figuring out which ones are abj or evoc, and allocating your spells known, cantrips, and spell slots accordingly, an Arcane Archer just chooses from a small number of magic arrows.

Same fantasy, lower complexity. Worse versatility but that isn't the point.

Last time we talked about this you mentioned Samurais and Champioins, so clearly you understand that some people don't like EKs with all the bells and whistles. The Arcane Archer lets those people play something simple, but still magic.

[Man_Over_Game]

Last time we talked about this you mentioned Samurais and Champioins, so clearly you understand that some people don't like EKs with all the bells and whistles. The Arcane Archer lets those people play something simple, but still magic.

Yeah, but describing a Samurai as magical doesn't really seem all that difficult either, while still being just as effective of a ranged character as an Arcane Archer. As far as I know, there aren't many examples of getting Temporary Hitpoints without magic, and Bless does nearly the same effect as Advantage; the Devotion Paladin's weapon enhancement is probably the number 1 reason most players pick that subclass instead of the other Paladin subclasses, which has a similar effect.

Mechanically, they don't seem different enough to justify needing both.

Conceptually, I don't think the Arcane Archer provides anything that couldn't have been done with something like Magic Adept, Ritual Caster, or a single level of a caster on the Samurai.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the Samurai, but a lot of other players do. Most of what I've heard about the Arcane Archer is that it's about as relevant as the Banneret.


Well, I'm not all that knowledgeable about the EK's spell list. But I would assume they don't really have many spells that deal effects against people after you shoot them with arrows first. The best spells I know to model that whole "my attack is the spell!" feature are all 5 ft reach limited.

The Eldritch Knight has something similar, with:

Attack after casting a spell (similar thing, but in reverse order)
Enemy is more susceptible to your spells after hitting them with an attack


There are options for the last bit with Flame Arrows and Magic Weapon, technically better for an attack-heavy Fighter than Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade.

[MaxWilson]

Conceptually, I don't think the Arcane Archer provides anything that couldn't have been done with something like Magic Adept, Ritual Caster, or a single level of a caster on the Samurai.

That Samurai sounds a lot more complicated than an Arcane Archer.

It sounds to me like you're equating "complexity" with "resource management" but complexity is really about choices, and the potential to make wrong choices. All three of your suggestions require a player to familiarize themselves with a large spell list and make very important choices, up front, with consequences that a new or casual player perhaps doesn't understand well. It's complex and risky. In contrast the Arcane Archer just requires them to pick from a short list of magic arrows, and the consequences of picking the "wrong" one are pretty low. No matter which one you pick, you still have Curving Shot and built-in magical arrows (by 7th level), and none of the magic arrow options are so bad that you won't find a use for them. Even Beguiling Arrow at least comes with extra psychic damage.

The inability to make bad (build) choices is what makes it simple.

[moonfly7]

I'm just started DMing my first 5e campaign and one of my players has started a dex-based fighter with plans to spec into Arcane Archer. I don't have any real experience with fighters (the campaign I play in has none), so I don't really know how they scale as they level up. But in reading the description it seems that AA are a bit underpowered, specifically in only getting Imbue Arrow twice per rest. Now I know fighters get lots of other goodies as they level, and a skilled archer can be formidable, but the specifics of their subclass seem a bit anemic, especially in the mid levels.

What are others experiences with this class?

I can't speak for everyone, but I just finished about a year long game with an Arcane Archer played by a friend of mine. At first I was concerned the class was going to be too weak compared to the rest of us because on paper two shots kind of sucks. But in combat proved me wrong.
Dude was our premier damage dealer, since archery fighting style made it near impossible for him to miss, and if he did then you better believe his curving shot made him hit. I think he missed all of twice the entire game. The small pool of shots looks really hampering, but if you use them strategically they're cery affective. I can't tell you how many times his arrows trapped bosses on the battlefield so we could wreck them, often he killed them with his first arcane shot. I think the quantity issue is like the problem with low level casters and warlocks: most combats don't last 10+turns. Most last around 5 or so, if that. Now obviously really hard battles are exempt, but in a normal day your not going to find a combat where you'll run into a situation where your put of spell slots if you use them right. Same thing with arcane archer, most combats aren't gonna go on so long that you'll need a ton of shots.

[Vogie]

I'm a huge fan of mixing up the classes, and leaning into the player's concept. If they're playing an Arcane Archer trying to be Hawkeye or the Green Arrow, they're going to want different things than an Arcane Archer trying to be Vivien Reid. A more mundane AA could add Disarming Shot and Tripping shot to their arsenal of available shots, or you can givie them access to other 1st level spells in shot form could be fun. Sleep Arrows, Faerie Fire Arrows, Flashbang arrows (Color Spray), Smoke arrow (Fog Cloud), and so forth.

Also, giving them access to spend a shot to cast Flame Arrows, Hunter's Mark, or Hex would actually make sense. You could delineate it as a sort of "expanded shot list" for the two versions of AA: Arcane or Nature proficient.

If you don't want to simply increase the number of Shots by a static amount, based on Proficiency, Int, or the like, here are some other options:

Combat-Focused Regeneration - the AA regains arcane shots on kills or Crits
Experimental Fletching - Similar to the Alchemist artificer, each long rest the AA gains 2 random arcane shots that they can use, then anything beyond that uses the Shots (in lieu of spell slots)
Definitely-not-Blade-Flourish - At higher levels, you can simply add a shot each of your turns with a single d6 damage die augment without spending Arcane Shot Slots.
The Spice Must Flow - Give the AA the ability to consume their other cooldowns as Arcane Shots. This could be as few as the Second Wind and Action Surge Features, or as many as the ability to spend hit dice (capped at a certain amount, probably based on Con mod)

[MaxWilson]

The Spice Must Flow - Give the AA the ability to consume their other cooldowns as Arcane Shots. This could be as few as the Second Wind and Action Surge Features, or as many as the ability to spend hit dice (capped at a certain amount, probably based on Con mod)


Another possibility (which I actually use for Battlemasters) is to trade attacks for Arcane Shot.

Battlemaster: You can temporarily regain expended superiority dice, up to your normal maximum, by studying enemies for weaknesses. For every Attack you forgo during the Attack action, you regain one expended superiority die, which is usable only against creatures you can see at the time you regain the die. This temporary die expires after one minute if it has not already been used, as do any temp HP gained from Rally with it.

I'd have to think about it from a game-logic perspective, but from a game-balance perspective I'd be fine with exchanging 2 attacks for 1 Arcane Shot (expires in 1 minute). An 11th+ level Fighter would therefore be able to launch one Arcane Shot at will, every single turn of every combat, if he wanted to dedicate two of his attacks to it.

[Trustypeaches]

I'm playing in a campaign right now that applied the following fix to Arcane Archer: they have a number of arcane shots equal to 2 + their Intelligence modifier.

I quickly discovered Banishing Arrow and Shadow Arrow are extremely powerful if you can fire them off 4+ times per short rest.

[MaxWilson]

I'm playing in a campaign right now that applied the following fix to Arcane Archer: they have a number of arcane shots equal to 2 + their Intelligence modifier.

I quickly discovered Banishing Arrow and Shadow Arrow are extremely powerful if you can fire them off 4+ times per short rest.

I should note that I've indirectly nerfed Shadow Arrow by not letting unseen attackers have advantage except on melee attacks. I suppose by strict RAW the Arcane Archer may be fine just because Shadow Arrow is so powerful (advantage to all ranged attacks for everybody!), but then again by strict RAW lots of things are similarly powerful (Silent Image of a large hedge = advantage to all ranged attacks for everybody!) which is exactly what I dislike about the RAW: ranged advantage is too easy to get.

So perhaps my houserule to give Arcane Archers an additional arrow per short rest helps compensate for this indirect nerf to Shadow Arrow.

[Trustypeaches]

I should note that I've indirectly nerfed Shadow Arrow by not letting unseen attackers have advantage except on melee attacks. I suppose by strict RAW the Arcane Archer may be fine just because Shadow Arrow is so powerful (advantage to all ranged attacks for everybody!), but then again by strict RAW lots of things are similarly powerful (Silent Image of a large hedge = advantage to all ranged attacks for everybody!) which is exactly what I dislike about the RAW: ranged advantage is too easy to get.
Doesn't physical interaction with the Silent Image reveal it to be an illusion, after which the image becomes transparent?

Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an Illusion, because things can pass through it.
I imagine seeing an arrow fly through an illusory wall would count here. It doesn't specify that the observer needs to be the one who interacts with the image directly. Observing someone else or something else pass through it should suffice.

It's also worth noting that ranged attacks will typically reveal your position to your target, even if you were hidden. See the skulker feat, which allows you to stay hidden when you miss a ranged attack from hiding:

When you are hidden from a creature and miss it with a ranged weapon attack, making the attack doesn't reveal your position.
If the enemy isn't blinded, or the attacker isn't invisible, they (and likely any nearby allies) won't be hidden after making that attack and won't have advantage on their ranged attacks any longer.

[MaxWilson]

Doesn't physical interaction with the Silent Image reveal it to be an illusion, after which the image becomes transparent?

If the enemy can touch your hedge, then yes, sure, they can feel that it's not there. Otherwise it's just arrows shooting out of the middle of a thick hedge, which is totally physically possible and may or may not even rouse suspicion.


I imagine seeing an arrow fly through an illusory wall would count here. It doesn't specify that the observer needs to be the one who interacts with the image directly. Observing someone else or something else pass through it should suffice.

There's nothing unphysical about shooting through an actual hedge:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2Fwvs6n_wWDnk%2Fm axresdefault.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

In fact that's one of the other things I dislike about RAW: just hiding inside of an actual, physical bush is enough to give you advantage on your ranged attacks, which makes no sense at all because the target still knows exactly where your arrows are originating from and can see them flying towards him. Why should you get advantage just because he can't see your face?

[Necromas]

I definitely agree with giving the AA more to do than 2 shots per short rest. I also think though that giving them lots of uses of options like banishing arrow or shadow arrow is probably a bit too strong on top of the fighter chassis. So here's just some brainstorming on ideas for limiting factors.


Limit each option to once per short rest, total uses would equal number of shots known which is close to proficiency bonus.
Add minor arcane shot options that use a separate resource but are weaker. I like the idea of combining this one with spending your extra attack as the resource.
Allow the archer to specialize in a specific shot and have extra uses of that specific one. If you don't want lots of banishing arrows for example than don't make it a specialization option. Can also combine with spending your extra attack as a resource to fire the specialized shot.
Make the extra uses a long rest resource.

[Kane0]

I like the sound of each arrow once per short rest, with the ability to recharge them another way somehow.

[Segev]

On vision and advantage/disadvantage, my personal house rule is that you have Disadvantage on attack rolls against creatures you cannot see, but only gain Advantage on attack rolls against creatures that can't see you and which you can see.

I do see the argument about not gaining Advantage when the target can see your attack coming even if he can't see you. But I think a big part of the justification for the Advantage is inability to see you winding up, and thus not having the timing. The attack just is suddenly coming.

[Yakk]

On vision and advantage/disadvantage, my personal house rule is that you have Disadvantage on attack rolls against creatures you cannot see, but only gain Advantage on attack rolls against creatures that can't see you and which you can see.

I do see the argument about not gaining Advantage when the target can see your attack coming even if he can't see you. But I think a big part of the justification for the Advantage is inability to see you winding up, and thus not having the timing. The attack just is suddenly coming.
Yes, that is about the only way to get rid of some insane corner cases.

Like "Oh, long range? Well I just step into this zone of magic darkness so nobody can see anyone ... and shoot!"

[HPisBS]

On vision and advantage/disadvantage, my personal house rule is that you have Disadvantage on attack rolls against creatures you cannot see, but only gain Advantage on attack rolls against creatures that can't see you and which you can see.

It's already RAW that advantage + disadvantage = regular roll.

In other words, you have advantage vs targets who don't see you, but disadvantage vs targets you can't see, so you just roll your attack as normal. This is why something like Devil's Sight or (the more limited) Eyes of the Dark (Shadow Sorc) are needed to fully benefit from casting Darkness.

[Segev]

It's already RAW that advantage + disadvantage = regular roll.

In other words, you have advantage vs targets who don't see you, but disadvantage vs targets you can't see. This is why something like Devil's Sight or (the more limited) Eyes of the Dark (Shadow Sorc) are needed to fully benefit from casting Darkness.

I'm aware of the RAW. The point of the house rule is to change it so that two blindfolded fools swinging at each other both have Disadvantage, rather than having as good a shot at hitting each other as they would if they were both able to see clearly.

As Yakk points out, it also ensures that you have to arrange to be able to see your target while hiding yourself to negate Disadvantage from other sources (or gain Advantage, yourself).

[Man_Over_Game]

It's already RAW that advantage + disadvantage = regular roll.

In other words, you have advantage vs targets who don't see you, but disadvantage vs targets you can't see. This is why something like Devil's Sight or (the more limited) Eyes of the Dark (Shadow Sorc) are needed to fully benefit from casting Darkness.

What he's saying is that being able to cancel out Disadvantage with Advantage, by making both of you blind, can cause some dumb interactions in-game.

You could have 3 different sources of Disadvantage, a single source of Advantage, and still attack fine.

This could be easily represented by shooting a Longbow beyond its normal range, causing Disadvantage. So you cast Fog Cloud on yourself, blinding both you and the enemy to each other, granting both of you Advantage and Disadvantage. Now that you're blind and beyond the normal distance for a Longbow, you can attack him with normal accuracy.

He's suggesting that being Blinded doesn't grant you extra accuracy to hit unless you can also see the enemy creature. This means that Devil's Sight would still grant you Advantage to attack the creature, but the creature would have Disadvantage to attack you (whether you had Devil's Sight available or not).


It's a slight nerf to visibility effects, but a boon for blinding effects. More players would use Darkness or Fog Cloud defensively, which...is kinda the point.

[Segev]

What he's saying is that being able to cancel out Disadvantage with Advantage, by making both of you blind, can cause some dumb interactions in-game.

You could have 3 different sources of Disadvantage, a single source of Advantage, and still attack fine.

This could be easily represented by shooting a Longbow beyond its normal range, causing Disadvantage. So you cast Fog Cloud on yourself, blinding both you and the enemy to each other, granting both of you Advantage and Disadvantage. Now that you're blind and beyond the normal distance for a Longbow, you can attack him with normal accuracy.

He's suggesting that being Blinded doesn't grant you extra accuracy to hit unless you can also see the enemy creature. This means that Devil's Sight would still grant you Advantage to attack the creature, but the creature would have Disadvantage to attack you (whether you had Devil's Sight available or not).Thanks for clarifying for me. This is what I'm aiming at.



It's a slight nerf to visibility effects, but a boon for blinding effects. More players would use Darkness or Fog Cloud defensively, which...is kinda the point.

Do you mean this in reverse? A slight nerf to blinding effects, but a boon to visiblity? If not, I'm not sure I follow why you say what you do, here, and would appreciate clarification, please.

[Man_Over_Game]

Do you mean this in reverse? A slight nerf to blinding effects, but a boon to visiblity? If not, I'm not sure I follow why you say what you do, here, and would appreciate clarification, please.

Devil's Sight is weaker, but Darkness is better.

[Segev]

Devil's Sight is weaker, but Darkness is better.

How so?

Devil's Sight means you can see and get Advantage. Darkness no longer merely leaves you and your foe with normal d20 rolls, but actually changes things to you both having Disadvantage (unless you can see him, in which case you have Advantage instead).

[Man_Over_Game]

How so?

Devil's Sight means you can see and get Advantage. Darkness no longer merely leaves you and your foe with normal d20 rolls, but actually changes things to you both having Disadvantage (unless you can see him, in which case you have Advantage instead).

Because it means that Devil's Sight would only increase your chance to hit, rather than increasing your hit chance while decreasing theirs.

Similarly, the Alert feature wouldn't provide any benefit in terms of enemies attacking you, unless those enemies had some means of seeing you while you couldn't see them (in which case, they'd attack normally instead of with Advantage).

[Segev]

Because it means that Devil's Sight would only increase your chance to hit, rather than increasing your hit chance while decreasing theirs.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Thanks for explaining!

[DKing9114]

One of the games I'm in right now has an Arcane Archer in the party, and it can be very effective-as in swinging the course of a battle with a single well place Shadow Arrow. It does, however, require three things to be useful. First, the player must understand and embrace the fact that their subclass is more about battlefield control and tactical support than the basic Fighter chassis, and similarly accept that like most other debuffing combatants, a couple of lucky saves will render their contributions less effective. Second, the other players need to enjoy and understand the tactical side of combat enough that they can benefit from the archer's work. Third, the players and the DM need to remember that short rests are a thing-something the fighter should already keep in mind, it's just more important now.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I love the AA.... in concept.

However, its mechanically pretty darn weak, as you know. One thing I've seen is the following adjustments:

1. You can use a number of Arcane Shots equal to your Intelligence Modifier per short rest
2. Remove the restriction in the wording which prevents it from working with Crossbows of all sorts

I've seen this work well.

Also, for the more sorcerer types, allow for Charisma to replace Intelligence.

Or Wisdom if you want some magical Japanese samurai bowcaster.

[Man_Over_Game]

Third, the players and the DM need to remember that short rests are a thing-something the fighter should already keep in mind, it's just more important now.

Why? Aren't all of the Arcane Archer's resources Long Rest ones?

[HappyDaze]

My group and I think that the Arcane Archer has terrible mechanics. None of us have any interest in trying to "fix" them since we consider them beyond help.