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View Full Version : Full round attack and TOB manouver, rule question



Galdor Miriel
2007-10-23, 11:57 AM
Hi all,

quick question from a confused mind.

If you make a full round attack, can you initiate a maneuver with 1 standard action as its initiating action as part of that attack.

In the TOB it has a section where it explains about initiating swift and immediate maneuvers and stances but not ones that require a standard action.

For example, if my Crusader has the Crusaders strike maneuver that heals him, can he strike with his full attack and still make the crusaders strike?

Hmmmm

Penguinizer
2007-10-23, 11:58 AM
No, as a full attack takes the full round. You could do a maneuver and 1 attack I believe.

cupkeyk
2007-10-23, 11:59 AM
Nope, You can only make a full attack with a boost but not a strike. Strikes are always single melee attacks

Galdor Miriel
2007-10-23, 12:04 PM
Thanks guys

Galdor Miriel
2007-10-23, 12:14 PM
Thanks guys

Douglas
2007-10-23, 12:20 PM
You spend the action specified and you do what it says in the maneuver description. No maneuver has an initiation action of "melee attack", so no maneuver can be done as part of a full attack action. A few maneuvers (Flashing Sun, Pouncing Charge, Time Stands Still) have a full attack as part of the maneuver's effect, but you don't make a full attack and do the maneuver - you do the maneuver, which happens to include a full attack.

Kayoden Usoden
2007-10-23, 12:27 PM
What it all boils down to the DM, and interpretation of the text.

For example, the whirlwind feat and the Weapon Master prestige class.

Whirlwind normaly takes a full round action. At 7th - or 8th level of WM (i can't rember right now :smallannoyed:) you get to use WW as a standard action, but only once per-round.
To me this means that you can use WW in your full round attack.

However, it is all up to the DM.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-23, 12:40 PM
No, as a full attack takes the full round. You could do a maneuver and 1 attack I believe.

No, not unless you somehow had more than one standard action per round. A round's worth of actions normally consist of a standard action and a move action. You can substitute your standard action for a move action, but you cannot substitute your move action for a standard action.

A standard action is required to make a single attack.


What it all boils down to the DM, and interpretation of the text.

For example, the whirlwind feat and the Weapon Master prestige class.

Whirlwind normaly takes a full round action. At 7th - or 8th level of WM (i can't rember right now ) you get to use WW as a standard action, but only once per-round.
To me this means that you can use WW in your full round attack.

However, it is all up to the DM.

No, it is only up to the DM in the sense that he/she can ignore the rules and come up with his/her own house rules.

Considering the three action types; Full round action, move action and standard action.

They can be combined as follows (the order does not matter):


Full round action

Move action + Standard action

Move action + Move action

Fixer
2007-10-24, 06:23 AM
Something of a side question, can you mix maneuvers into one attack? I might have an opportunity to play a warblade and there are a few maneuvers I would like to mix together into a single attack. Reading the rules I don't think I can do this but I might have missed something.

Dhavaer
2007-10-24, 06:26 AM
Something of a side question, can you mix maneuvers into one attack? I might have an opportunity to play a warblade and there are a few maneuvers I would like to mix together into a single attack. Reading the rules I don't think I can do this but I might have missed something.

You can use a boost and a strike at the same time (Inferno Blade + Time Stands Still = good times) but you can't use two strikes without some way of getting more actions.

Fixer
2007-10-24, 06:33 AM
Drat.

My guy doesn't have any boosts that I can think of. I have not yet been told by my GM how to build him (stats or level) so I just built a big tree.

Care to critique? (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dch332f9_2fxt2gj)

Dhavaer
2007-10-24, 06:37 AM
How about Iron Heart Endurance? You have a fair few Diamond Mind maneuvers, too, so Skill Focus: Concentration might come in handy.

Fixer
2007-10-24, 06:51 AM
How about Iron Heart Endurance? You have a fair few Diamond Mind maneuvers, too, so Skill Focus: Concentration might come in handy.

He will be using Stone Power to boost his HP every turn, effectively giving him DR against any sort of HP damage per round. That, combined with my being married to the woman playing the party healer (:smallbiggrin:) means that healing won't be much issue and I wanted to retain maneuver slots for later.

With regards to skill focus: concentration, I was hoping to have a custom item made to grant a high concentration circumstance bonus and could use the feat slots elsewhere. The bonus feats granted by Warblade aren't terribly helpful. :smallsigh:

Reel On, Love
2007-10-24, 06:54 AM
There's no need for a "custom item"--there are items that boost concentration checks. For example the Third Eye: Concentrate (XPH/SRD), +10 for 10k gp (as with any skill booster).

Fixer
2007-10-24, 07:00 AM
I was planning to get one that boosted by 30 (max for a non-epic item).

I don't recall seeing one of those in the books. If you have please tell me where. It will keep the GM from arguing too much with me.

The Mormegil
2007-10-24, 07:22 AM
Martial Study - Inferno Blade (no prerequisites!!!:smallbiggrin: ) can be absurdely good, since you haven't got many boosts, as well as White Raven Tactics (better than having IHE, if you have a party healer, since he can obviously do better).
Also, you have too many strikes, and too little counters. Manticore Parry and Wall of Blades are good ones. And unless I'm missing something, you will need Iron Heart Surge. Adding in the Scent stance keeps you a 5th level one (move to find out position means you got a standard to strike) that can as well be Giant's Stance (more damages, no flaws). I'd take White Raven Hammer (stun with no save, then finish him with TSS + IB:smallamused: ).
Apart from that, ok to it.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-24, 07:38 AM
I was planning to get one that boosted by 30 (max for a non-epic item).

I don't recall seeing one of those in the books. If you have please tell me where. It will keep the GM from arguing too much with me.

If he allows custom items at all this is one of those that follow the formula nicely.

Slotted + 30 competence bonus to a skill item = 90K gp.

Fixer
2007-10-24, 11:38 AM
Martial Study - Inferno Blade (no prerequisites!!!:smallbiggrin: ) can be absurdely good, since you haven't got many boosts, as well as White Raven Tactics (better than having IHE, if you have a party healer, since he can obviously do better).
Also, you have too many strikes, and too little counters. Manticore Parry and Wall of Blades are good ones. And unless I'm missing something, you will need Iron Heart Surge. Adding in the Scent stance keeps you a 5th level one (move to find out position means you got a standard to strike) that can as well be Giant's Stance (more damages, no flaws). I'd take White Raven Hammer (stun with no save, then finish him with TSS + IB:smallamused: ).
Apart from that, ok to it.
Inferno Blade - Desert Wind 7 Boost
I like, but I sort of have all my open feat slots after level 12 taken by feats I really want (being able to blink 50 feet as a swift action rocks although I might take it as a 21st level feat, should this character even make it past level 12 which almost none of my campaigns do.)

White Raven Tactics - White Raven 3 Boost
Not a bad maneuver, but I cannot find one to replace it. Also, this character isn't likely to win the initiative often until higher levels when he gets improved initiative. A good maneuver, but I don't want to lose any of the maneuvers I must have at 10th level that I could retrain into it.

Manticore Parry - Iron Heart 6 Counter
Very situational. You have to have an adjacent target to redirect attacks towards. You can only use it against ARMED attacks. Given this character is more gladitorial (single opponent or being alone) I thought this would come up very rarely.

Wall of Blades - Iron Heart 2 Counter
This character will have a very high AC without any help, and will be using Stone Power to boost his HP every turn to make even those attacks that hit hurt less. I also cannot find a decent place to put this maneuver in place of another he already wants to take.

Iron Heart Surge - Iron Heart 3 ?
Good Maneuver. I originally wanted this. I forget why I said no to it... I'll re-examine it. Thanks.
Ah, yeah, I couldn't find anything to trade for it. I had to keep Mountain Hammer until level 10 or he'd lose access to his Stone Power feat. That caused him to miss out on the 8th level retraining.
Ok, but... if I replace Steel Wind with it that will let me do that AND open up the 10th level retrain slot.... Checking and make sure that doesn't screw up any of my Stone Mountain requirements....
... And it does. It makes me inelligible for Elder Mountain Hammer at level 11. Only way around that is to take a different Stance at level 10 so.. I guess Giant's Stance is in, even if I don't particularly like it more than Dancing Blade Form. That lets me upgrade my Mountain Hammer to Elder Mountain Hammer at 10th level. Ok, that's a fair trade-off.

Giant's Stance - Stone Dragon 5 Stance
I had to take feats to get more stances because I wanted more. This one might be nice but at the damage level he will be at (d12) it is unlikely to boost the damage potential by much (what? 2d8 instead?). The biggest limiting factor was losing the stance automatically if you move more than 5 feet for any reason. This character tends to move a bit.
Although I have to take it now in order to meet prerequisites. :smallmad:

White Raven Hammer - White Raven 8 Strike
Requires 3 White Raven maneuvers and this character won't have that many. Otherwise I would have retrained this maneuver in at level 20.

I know I have a lot of strikes, but this guy is more aggressive than counter-attacking. His counters all deal with saving throws because my DMs tend to like enemy spellcasters.

Snooder
2007-10-24, 12:52 PM
What sort of Warblade is Besturn supposed to be? From your manuever/stance selection he seems to be heavily defensive. If you want him to pump out the damage, there are other ways to go.

Just a few tips that I've found useful
- Punishing stance. Crazy good stance. Adds 1d6 damage in exchange for -2AC.
- Rapid Assault. Adds 1d6 damage to all attacks in the first round of combat
- You don't need Adaptive Style. Warblades have an awesome recovery mechanic anyway.
- If I were you, I'd pump most of my WBL into armor. you don't need much more than a +1 magical weapon since dmg comes from maneuvers.
- I wouldn't waste bonus feats on stances/maneuvers you can get anyway.


Quick question for you guys. Do you know if you can hold off on picking stances for level? Cause you get ur second stance at level 4, but you don't get access to the 3rd lvl stances till level 5. Makes sense that you could just wait and learn it then. Also, the sample Warblade in the book has a 1st and a 3rd lvl stance, so something's up.

Temp
2007-10-24, 01:03 PM
White Raven Tactics - White Raven 3 Boost
Not a bad maneuver
But the maneuver's incredible, it lets you control initiative. It might even be worth a Martial Study at sixth level.


You don't need Adaptive Style. Warblades have an awesome recovery mechanic anyway.
Warblades don't get enough readied maneuvers to prepare for everything. Adaptive Style's still handy for them just so they can have the right tools for each encounter. Maybe not at such a low level, but if there are other feats intended for higher slots, it could be worth it.

Fixer
2007-10-24, 01:26 PM
What sort of Warblade is Besturn supposed to be? From your manuever/stance selection he seems to be heavily defensive. If you want him to pump out the damage, there are other ways to go.

Just a few tips that I've found useful
- Punishing stance. Crazy good stance. Adds 1d6 damage in exchange for -2AC.
- Rapid Assault. Adds 1d6 damage to all attacks in the first round of combat
- You don't need Adaptive Style. Warblades have an awesome recovery mechanic anyway.
- If I were you, I'd pump most of my WBL into armor. you don't need much more than a +1 magical weapon since dmg comes from maneuvers.
- I wouldn't waste bonus feats on stances/maneuvers you can get anyway.
Punishing Stance - You are correct that many of his maneuvers/stances are defensive. This is because he uses strikes for attacks and reserves his available readied slots for counters. The extra 1d6 for damage losing a +2 to AC seems counterproductive at the low levels because his potential damage output with his greataxe (d12 + 6, assuming a +4 STR bonus) would only go up slightly and at those low levels AC is more important.

Rapid Assault - This character is for surviving long battles, not finishing them quickly. He is a gladiator at heart and, as such, does not want his battles to end quickly.

Adaptive Style - This guy will be carrying around all his counters by default. In a combat where he won't need to worry about his saving throws he will be able to change them out to get more strikes without waiting 5 minutes. that is very much worth a feat to me.

WBL advice - Taken. I had every intention on having this guy have great armor.

Feat advice. - Actually, he can't get all those stances because he is limited to a certain number per level. The two I had him take feats for are ones I either wanted or needed to meet prereqs.


Quick question for you guys. Do you know if you can hold off on picking stances for level? Cause you get ur second stance at level 4, but you don't get access to the 3rd lvl stances till level 5. Makes sense that you could just wait and learn it then. Also, the sample Warblade in the book has a 1st and a 3rd lvl stance, so something's up.
Yeah, if I could save Stances until higher levels I would definitely do so, like saving the 4th level one to take Absolute Steel instead of Leading the Charge. I haven't found this in any eratta, though.

Although I guess I can drop the Absolute Steel. That lets me rearrange my feats and grab Inferno Blade at level 18 and get Power Attack earlier. Sweetness. :) Now, if I can find where you can hold off picking up stances I will save the 4th level stance to pick up Hearing the Air at 7th level.

Darrin
2007-10-24, 03:00 PM
Drat.
My guy doesn't have any boosts that I can think of. I have not yet been told by my GM how to build him (stats or level) so I just built a big tree.

Care to critique? (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dch332f9_2fxt2gj)

Warblades don't need Adaptive Style. They can recover their maneuvers as a swift action + standard attack or full round attack (so long as they don't activate any other maneuvers). Martial Study: Burning Blade or Cloak of Deception would be good at level 3.

I'd also rethink Stone Power. It's just not worth it. To use it, you have to use a Stone Dragon strike, and almost all of those are standard action attacks, so your iterative attacks are completely wasted... and you don't get much use for your move action if you can't move more than 5' per round. The temporary hit points aren't worth it, either... damage scales up much much faster than those temp HPs, I can't see how they'd make much of a difference in a fight. You're better off taking your full iterative attacks and killing your opponent quicker rather than trying to outlast him with one attack per round and hoping he doesn't exceed your temp HP (which he will). Of the Warblade Bonus Feats, Improved Init is probably the best pick.

The only really worthwhile thing in Stone Dragon is Mountain Hammer. You can pretty much ignore the rest. As for Giant's Stance... unless you really need this for some kind of combo, you're more likely to get better bonus damage from another stance, like Punishing Stance or Assassin's Stance. If you *must* have it for the +4 to bull rushes or trips or whatever, then pick up Charging Minotaur and swap it for something else as soon as you pick up Giant's Stance around 9th/10th level. As far as 5th level stances go, I prefer Press the Advantage (for Full Attack + 10 foot step).

The Warblade capstone ability is a great ability, but put some thought into which two stances you want to have active under what circumstances. For example:

Charging = Leading the Charge + Absolute Steel (negates the -2 AC for charging)
Close-Combat = Press the Advantage + Absolute Steel (full attack, 10 ft step, +2 AC)
Flanking = Punishing Stance + Assassin's Stance (+3d6 per attack)
Anti-Spellcaster = Stance of Alacrity + Hearing the Air (invis)/Supreme Blade Parry (blaster)

Maneuvers:

Consider switching Stone Bones at level 1 with Charging Minotaur. This gives you a maneuver you can use on a charge, when your standard action strikes aren't available. It also synergizes nicely with the Leading the Charge stance. Replace it later with Pouncing Charge or Mountain Avalanche.

At levels 4, 5, 6, and 7, you pick up nothing but standard action strikes, three of them from Diamond Mind, and two of those are Concentration check = damage strikes. Pick either Insightful Strike or Ruby Nightmare Blade, but not both. I'd recommend Mountain Hammer at 4 (replacing Leading the Attack), White Raven Tactics at 5, Iron Heart Surge at 6 (replacing Steel Wind), and Ruby Nightmare Blade at 7. This leaves you a bit thin on strikes, but at level 6 you get your second iterative attack and can switch to full attacks + counter/boosts.

For levels 8, 9 and 10... I'd recommend Bounding Assault (replacing Charging Minotaur) at 8, Iron Heart Focus at 9 is fine, and at 10 you pick up a 5th level stance... I prefer Press the Advantage. If you're set on Giant's Stance, keep Charging Minotaur a bit longer or replace it with Boulder Roll.

Levels 11-20 looks fine.

Snooder
2007-10-24, 06:39 PM
Punishing Stance - You are correct that many of his maneuvers/stances are defensive. This is because he uses strikes for attacks and reserves his available readied slots for counters. The extra 1d6 for damage losing a +2 to AC seems counterproductive at the low levels because his potential damage output with his greataxe (d12 + 6, assuming a +4 STR bonus) would only go up slightly and at those low levels AC is more important.


Yes, but if you combine that +1d6 with a maneuver that adds +1d6 to damage you've almost doubled your damage and pretty much killed anything at low levels. And if you replace the greataxe with a dwarven waraxe and use a shield, you still do more damage, but have the same AC.



Rapid Assault - This character is for surviving long battles, not finishing them quickly. He is a gladiator at heart and, as such, does not want his battles to end quickly.


Can't help you there. I subscribe to the "best defense is a good offense" school of thought.



Adaptive Style - This guy will be carrying around all his counters by default. In a combat where he won't need to worry about his saving throws he will be able to change them out to get more strikes without waiting 5 minutes. that is very much worth a feat to me.


You really only need the counter for Will saves. Fort is good enough, and Reflex gets both dex and int bonuses so it tends to be ok.



Yeah, if I could save Stances until higher levels I would definitely do so, like saving the 4th level one to take Absolute Steel instead of Leading the Charge. I haven't found this in any eratta, though.

Although I guess I can drop the Absolute Steel. That lets me rearrange my feats and grab Inferno Blade at level 18 and get Power Attack earlier. Sweetness. :) Now, if I can find where you can hold off picking up stances I will save the 4th level stance to pick up Hearing the Air at 7th level.

Take a look at the sample warblade on page 26. He is indicated as having a 1st and a 3rd level stance. However, there is no way for him to have both if he got the stance at 4th level. Also, the wording in the book never says that you MUST pick up a stance at the level that you first have it available, just how many you can know at a specific time. I'd definitely talk to the DM about it.

Darrin
2007-10-24, 10:48 PM
Quick question for you guys. Do you know if you can hold off on picking stances for level? Cause you get ur second stance at level 4, but you don't get access to the 3rd lvl stances till level 5.

The only way to hold off on picking up a stance is to multi-class... which spoils picking up your capstone ability before ECL 21. This makes it tough for the Warblades and Crusaders to pick up the 3rd level stances early on, while the SwordSages get a new stance right at ECL 5. But if a Warblade multi-classes for two levels before picking up Warblade 4, he'll have a high enough IL to pick up a 3rd level stance.

A slightly different workaround would be to take a Bloodline level (from UA), but I'm really confused about how those are supposed to work. For example, a Warblade 3 who picked up a Bloodline level would count his Warblade levels as 1 level higher for the purposes of calculating his abilities based on his class level, including his Initiator Level. But then would the Bloodline level count as 0.5 IL for being a non-Martial Adept level? I'm not sure if a Warblade 3/Bloodline 1 would have an IL of 4 or 4.5... but either way, when he takes Warblade 4 he has a high enough IL for a 3rd level stance.

I'm still thoroughy confused about how Bloodlines work... do they cost the same as another level? Do they count towards ECL? Do you have to pick how strong the bloodline is before you take any levels? Can you change the strength of the bloodline later? What happens if you lose a bloodline level via energy drain, fail the save and advance in a different class? Can you retrain a bloodline level?

If you combine multiclassing with bloodline levels, then things get really, really, really broken. A major bloodline, for example, adds 3 levels to all of your classes for the purposes of calculating IL, so a Warblade 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1/Ranger 1/Bloodline 3/Crusader 1/SwordSage 2 has an Initiator Level of 17 (I think... maybe even 18.5) and can pick up 9th level maneuvers... and this is around ECL 11. Replace one of those dips with Cleric and you can also do infinite damage with BassetKing's Imbued Healing/Aura of Chaos trick around ECL 9.

cupkeyk
2007-10-30, 03:14 PM
Can you charge with a standard action strike?

Can you ready an action to initiate a standard action strike? Particularly, can you control your mount to charge, readying an action to initiate a strike when the opponent is within reach (as per normal charging on a mount rules)?

The_Snark
2007-10-30, 03:26 PM
Can you charge with a standard action strike?

Can you ready an action to initiate a standard action strike? Particularly, can you control your mount to charge, readying an action to initiate a strike when the opponent is within reach (as per normal charging on a mount rules)?

1. No.

2. Yes.

3. Ugh, mounted combat... It really depends on how your DM runs mounted combat. Generally, I simply replace your speed with the mount's and give you the +1 for higher ground, but under core rules you could use a maneuver and get the benefits from charging, yeah.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-30, 04:08 PM
Particularly, can you control your mount to charge, readying an action to initiate a strike when the opponent is within reach (as per normal charging on a mount rules)?

No, you can make an attack at the end of the mounted charge, but you cannot take a standard action.