[3.5] Question about gestalt classes progression and prestige classes

[LocoTaco]

Recently, I tried to make a gestalt character BUT I'm not sure when it comes to prestige classes and how those advance in tandem with the normal gestalt classes. Every source I've found were either vague or contradictory so I hope some of you guys can help me.

I'm just gonna post the way I've arranged my test build and if something isn't right, feel free to correct me

WARLOCK 1 || BEGUILER 1
WARLOCK 2 || BEGUILER 2
WARLOCK 3 || BEGUILER 3
WARLOCK 4 || BEGUILER 3 / UNSEEN SEER 1
WARLOCK 5 || BEGUILER 3 / UNSEEN SEER 2
WARLOCK 5 / MINDBENDER 1 || BEGUILER 4 / UNSEEN SEER 2

[NigelWalmsley]

The default rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) state pretty clearly that "A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class.". That said, some DMs allow multiple PrCs anyway. In that case it would presumably work just as you are describing.

Though I don't see how you qualify for Unseen Seer at 4th level. You need at least 8 ranks in a couple of skills, which means there's a pretty hard minimum of 6th level.

[skunk3]

Yep.

One one side of the gestalt you always have to take a level in a base class. You cannot take levels in two different prestige classes at the same time. Also, some DM's will require you to take a prestige class through completion before going to anything else.

So with this character it looks like one side of the gestalt is gonna be Warlock. Good choice. The other side can be whatever you want AS LONG AS YOU QUALIFY for it. As the previous commenter stated, you don't qualify for Unseen Seer that early. I would also recommend looking into Enlightened Spirit if you are a good character. As a prestige class in normal games it is trash, but in a gestalt game it's pretty awesome for Warlocks. Also, any invocations you get are retrainable.

[Nezkrul]

Basically just parroting what has been stated but also to add:

Treat the character as being two in one, however at any given level up you may not choose a PrC for both. However, the rules aren’t clear on whether or not your two “sides” are completely independent or if they are just a sum equaling a whole. Meaning you could possibly take a PrC on one side so long as the whole meets the requirements, not just that side.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Keep in mind that Gestalt doesn't have 'sides' to anything, it's typically just written that way because it's easier to illustrate and understand the level progression of a build. You actually combine the two class levels into a single class level, at any given character level. So you're combining the fourth Warlock level with the first Unseen Seer level, the fifth Warlock level with the second Unseen Seer level, the first Mindbender level with the fourth Beguiler level, etc.

As others have said, you can't qualify for Unseen Seer until your 6th character level, unless there's a house rule on max skill ranks at your table. The highest ranks possible at any given level is three more than your current character level for class skills, or half as many ranks if it's cross-class. You don't gain the skill points for a given level until after selecting the class you level up in, so you can't start taking it at the same level as you would gain the prerequisites.

Mindbender can be qualified for earlier with caster level shenanigans, if all of its skill requirements are class skills. For example, the Primordial Giant template gets a +1 caster level to spell-like abilities, which includes Warlock invocations. So with that (and a race that has the giant creature type) you could take the Mindbender dip at your 5th character level, and start taking Unseen Seer from your 6th character level.

[Kayblis]

However, the rules aren’t clear on whether or not your two “sides” are completely independent or if they are just a sum equaling a whole. Meaning you could possibly take a PrC on one side so long as the whole meets the requirements, not just that side.

The rules explicitly tell you your character gets both class features from both sides(not stacking on the same level), and gets the best of numerical values. You absolutely can pick a PrC if any side meets a prerequisite, as long as you meet them all when you pick the level. So, if you want to go for Arcane Archer, you can go:

Level 6 - Wizard 6 // Ranger 6
Level 7 - Wizard 7 // Ranger 6/Arcane Archer 1

The '1st level arcane spells' prerequisite is met by the Wizard side, and the rest by the Ranger side and feats. You are a singular character, and everything you get at each level is part of your singular character. That's also why Theurge-type classes are usually banned from Gestalt, because it's a straight power boost from normal casting that only takes one side.

[OrbanSirgen]

The rules explicitly tell you your character gets both class features from both sides(not stacking on the same level), and gets the best of numerical values. You absolutely can pick a PrC if any side meets a prerequisite, as long as you meet them all when you pick the level. So, if you want to go for Arcane Archer, you can go:

Level 6 - Wizard 6 // Ranger 6
Level 7 - Wizard 7 // Ranger 6/Arcane Archer 1

The '1st level arcane spells' prerequisite is met by the Wizard side, and the rest by the Ranger side and feats. You are a singular character, and everything you get at each level is part of your singular character. That's also why Theurge-type classes are usually banned from Gestalt, because it's a straight power boost from normal casting that only takes one side.

Theurges technically are already gestalt characters...

[Kayblis]

Theurges technically are already gestalt characters...

Not really, you don't get any class features other than spell progression. Mystic Theurge doesn't give bonus Wizard feats or extra Dread Necromancer features or anything like these. That'd be like saying Abjurant Champion is technically a gestalt character, which is obviously false.

As a side point, I'd like to remind people that Prestige Classes with their own unique spell progression can be advanced by other PrCs that advance casting, so you can have 1 level of Ur-Priest and then 9 levels of Dweomerkeeper to advance your divine casting to max level early. You keep all the good and don't miss out on other PrCs' class features. This is a very high-power option, but it's entirely legal. Works well with classes that don't have good features but present a great spell progression.

[NigelWalmsley]

Theurges technically are already gestalt characters...

No, they aren't. A theurge is a class that advances things that are (typically) from multiple classes. Gestalt is a process of combining two classes. A gestalt character gets class features from both their classes. A theurge does not.

[schreier]

Gestalt can't take "Theurge" type classes from my understanding -- how would something like Swift Hunter work? If at a level, either side was a ranger or scout class, you get +1 to favored enemy and increase skirmish? I would assume ranger/scout would not increase you 2 effective levels?

Has anyone actually played gestalt? I've always been curious, but have been leery of the power creep above the already mix-maxed characters I've tried to build.

[OrbanSirgen]

I mean that it's basically a combination of two classes in one...

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Gestalt can't take "Theurge" type classes from my understanding -- how would something like Swift Hunter work? If at a level, either side was a ranger or scout class, you get +1 to favored enemy and increase skirmish? I would assume ranger/scout would not increase you 2 effective levels?

Has anyone actually played gestalt? I've always been curious, but have been leery of the power creep above the already mix-maxed characters I've tried to build.Generally, the most you can advance a feature is +1 char level per level. So a Ranger 10//Scout 10 with Swift Hunter counts as a Ranger 10 and a Scout 10 for the various stuff. Same with a Ranger 10//Fighter 1/Scout 9, you only count as a Ranger 10 and a Scout 10 even though the advancement now should technically happen at different levels.

There are ways around this, though, that don't involve Theurging. Mindbender is a PRC that advances casting at every odd level. Acolyte of the Skin advances casting every odd level. So a build like:
Wizard 1//Rogue 1
Wizard 2//Rogue 2
Wizard 3//Rogue 3
Wizard 4//Rogue 4
Wizard 5//Rogue 5
Mindbender 1//AotS 1
Mindbender 2//AotS 2
etcWould end up with full caster progression. Similarly, you could probably match Rogue levels with Assassin or similar to gain +1d6 SA every level. A DM can yell about it, but it's not actually any different from a Wizard 5/Argent Savant 5//Rogue 5/Wizard 1/Rogue 4 to skip the caster level loss for Argent Savant 1. Thing is, outside of pretty narrow uses, it's not all that GOOD. You can go with a bunch of different Rogue classes and PRCs for +12d6+10 SA at level 10, or you can be a Pixie 4/Rogue 6//Sorcerer 5/PRC 5 specialized in Greater Invisible Metamagic'd Scorching Ray for an absolute pile of damage. A Wizard//Factotum making a quick dip into Master Specialist in place of a Factotum level is fine for fixing the lost caster levels for Swiftblade, but if a PRC loses more casting than that, it's probably costing too much from your passive side to be worth it.

The thing is, there's 2 separate ways that Gestalt chars are better. One is that they generally get better BAB/Saves/etc, and the other is that they've got 2 sets of class features that synergize to a greater or lesser degree. A Rogue 10//Fighter 10 is a Rogue with d10 HD, 2 good saves, full BAB, and enough feats to actually go TWF. And you can toss in Pounce and Whirling Frenzy without giving up your skills. That's unoptimized, and it's really good. A Rogue 10//Ninja 10 gets full SA and Sudden Strike progression, but sucks because it's just a normal Rogue with more d6. (and both suck compared to a Druid 10//Monk 1/Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warshaper 5.)

I have played Gestalt, but never a full campaign. Either they died, or we got enough players finally that we needed to go back to normal classes.

[NigelWalmsley]

Gestalt can't take "Theurge" type classes from my understanding -- how would something like Swift Hunter work?

The wording is a little less strict for Theurge PrCs than it is for double-dipping PrCs ("should be prohibited" versus "can't"). Presumably part of that is the difficult of determining precisely what qualifies. You can make an argument that the Unseen Seer is supposed to be a Theurge, but you can get in easily as a single-classed Beguiler.

Swift Hunter probably shouldn't double up, but arguably does by strict RAW. The best argument against it working is that a gestalt Ranger//Scout is not a character with a "Ranger level" and a "Scout level", but a character with a "Ranger//Scout level", and therefore not possessed of anything to add together with Swift Hunter.

[Kayblis]

As I see it, as the Swift Hunter feat states that both levels stack, advancing both classes together in one level would count as "advancing the same class feature twice" in Gestalt. The same way Uncanny Dodge isn't stacked between classes that have it, you can't benefit from the feat on a given level if it would result in advancing the same feature twice. You absolutely can have Scout [X] and Ranger [20-X] and get lv 20 features from both classes, but you can't take these levels together. To organize it, setting Scout and Ranger on the same side is a good idea. It's a fine setup to get good martial abilities on one side, and leaves the other side completely free for prestige classes.