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AvatarVecna
2020-03-19, 12:46 PM
Veteran

Alignment: Any

Hit Dice: d12

Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering, local, the planes) (Int), Jump (Str), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight Of Hand (Dex), and Swim (Str)

Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier (x4 at 1st level)



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Bonus Feats
Sneak Attack
Class Features


1
+1
+2
+0
+0
1
+1d6
Armored Mage, General Tactics


2
+2
+3
+0
+0
1
+1d6
Dungeon Crasher I


3
+3
+3
+1
+1

+2d6
Practiced Duelist I


4
+4
+4
+1
+1
1
+2d6
Harder Better Faster Stronger


5
+5
+4
+1
+1

+3d6
Practiced Duelist II


6
+6/+1
+5
+2
+2
1
+3d6
Elusive Attack I, Aligned Strike


7
+7/+2
+5
+2
+2

+4d6
Practiced Duelist III


8
+8/+3
+6
+2
+2
1
+4d6
Dungeon Crasher II


9
+9/+4
+6
+3
+3

+5d6
Practiced Duelist IV


10
+10/+5
+7
+3
+3
1
+5d6
Determination


11
+11/+6/+1
+7
+3
+3

+6d6
Elusive Attack II


12
+12/+7/+2
+8
+4
+4
1
+6d6
Anchored In Reality


13
+13/+8/+3
+8
+4
+4

+7d6



14
+14/+9/+4
+9
+4
+4
1
+7d6
Dungeon Crasher III


15
+15/+10/+5
+9
+5
+5

+8d6
Counterattack


16
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+5
+5
1
+8d6
Elusive Attack III


17
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+5
+5

+9d6
Overwhelming Attack


18
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+6
+6
1
+9d6



19
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+6
+6

+10d6



20
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+6
+6
1
+10d6
Dungeon Crasher IV



Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A veteran is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a veteran gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The veteran gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two veteran levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats, or the Urban Tracking feat. A veteran must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. Finally, a veteran counts as a fighter of equal class level for purposes of meeting prerequisites.

Sneak Attack: If a veteran can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The veteran’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the veteran flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two veteran levels thereafter. Should the veteran score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a veteran can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A veteran can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies - undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The veteran must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A veteran cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Armored Mage: Choose one arcane spellcasting class, such as sorcerer. You can avoid any chance of arcane spell failure for spells gained from this class as long as you restrict yourself to light armor and light shields. This training does not extend to any other form of armor or shields, nor does this ability apply to spells gained from other spellcasting classes. This benefit applies only to spells of a level equal to or lower than your veteran class level + 1.

General Tactics: At 1st level, you gain a +5 bonus on initiative checks, and a +3 bonus on saves vs fear effects. In addition, when attacking a flat-footed opponent within 30 feet, you can add your Dexterity bonus (if any) as a competence bonus on weapon damage rolls.

Dungeon Crasher: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. At 2nd level, you gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle. In addition, you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).

At 8th level, 14th level, and 20th level, this ability improves. The bonus to dealing with traps increases by +2, the bonus on Strength checks to break objects increases by +5, and the damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases by 4d6 + Strength (to a maximum of 16d6 + five times your Strength bonus at 20th level).

Practiced Duelist: At 3rd level, a Veteran gains Skill Focus (Intimidate) as a bonus feat.

Starting at 5th level, a target successfully intimidated by a veteran suffers lasting effects. Instead of ending when the veteran leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after his departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward the veteran shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering fear remains. Whenever the veteran returns to someone he has previously intimidated, he gains a +4 bonus on his Intimidate check to re-establish the effect.

Starting at 7th level, the veteran combines defensive tactics with a stream of wordplay aimed at tricking his opponent into letting his guard down. Whenever a veteran fights defensively, he may attempt a Bluff or Diplomacy check as a free action, opposed by his opponent’s Sense Motive check (the opponent may also add his base attack bonus on this check). If the veteran wins, he gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against that creature until the end of his next turn.

This ability only functions against creatures with Intelligence scores of 3 or higher. It is a language-dependent, mind-affecting ability.

Starting at 9th level, a veteran can use the demoralize opponent aspect of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a standard action.

Harder Better Faster Stronger: At 4th level, a veteran gains +2 to Strength and Constitution. They also gain Dodge as a bonus feat, and a +1 bonus to AC when wearing heavy armor.

Elusive Attack: Starting at 6th level, the veteran masters a technique of combining offense and defense. As a full round action, make one attack at your highest BB. Until the start of your next turn, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC. This bonus improves to +4 at 11th level and to +6 at 16th level.

Aligned Strike (Su): As a free action, you can orient your weapon along one alignment component that you possess. For example, if you are chaotic good, you can make your weapon either chaotic- or good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. This effect lasts until you choose to end it or change it (as a free action) to the other alignment component, or until you no longer wield the weapon. Ammunition or a thrown weapon affected by this ability remains aligned until it either strikes a target or misses.

Determination (Su): Starting at 10th level, you can switch your focus between defenses from moment to moment as necessary, putting the strength of the mortal mind to work. As an immediate action, you can reduce your base Will save to +0 and gain a bonus to your Armor Class equal to the amount of the reduction. This effect lasts until the beginning of your next turn. Alternatively, as an immediate action, you can reduce your base attack bonus by one-half and gain a bonus on your Will save equal to the amount of the reduction. This effect lasts until the end of your next action.

Anchored In Reality (Sp): As a standard action, a veteran of 12th level or higher can activate a dimensional anchor effect on himself with a duration of a number of rounds equal to his class level. In addition, anyone with whom he is grappling is likewise affected by the dimensional anchor ability while they are grappling. Spell resistance applies, and the caster level of the ability equals the veteran’s class level.

Counterattack: At 15th level, the veteran learns to hold back some offensive prowess to enable a potent counterattack. As a full round action, make one melee attacka t your highest BAB. At any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest BAB) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.

Overwhelming Attack: Starting at 17th level, a veteran can focus their attention in combat to deliver a single deadly attack. As a full round action, make one attack at your highest BAB. That attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks you make befor ethe start of your next turn.

JNAProductions
2020-03-19, 12:49 PM
Just off gut feeling... HIghish T4, lowish T3?

I'm not particularly good at 3.5, so I'd be curious to hear what others think.

GrayDeath
2020-03-19, 12:53 PM
Well, on its own (ergo without any OP Shenannigans, fe using only dips for the armored caster stuff or up to certain Bonuses, Id say this is extremely high T4 or quite low T3 (but high given its "mundanness" ^^).

It also makes Rogues, Fighters and largely Barbarians useless, even moreso than Initiators do.

Cerefel
2020-03-19, 12:54 PM
I'd probably tier it somewhere in the lower half of tier 3, along with classes like duskblade.

Also, is that just all of the fighter ACFs stacked onto a single chassis while keeping all of the feats?

AvatarVecna
2020-03-19, 12:57 PM
Also, is that just all of the fighter ACFs stacked onto a single chassis while keeping all of the feats?

Not all of them, but most of them yeah. Some abilities got left out cuz they were too weird or too lame or would just make the lower levels even more crowded.

Demidos
2020-03-19, 01:18 PM
Low Tier 3 or very high T4, yeah. Not as strong as a warblade but better than anything in T4.

Doesn't really have that much utility outside hitting things beyond the feats and intimidate stuff, which prevents it from being a mid-high T3.

Telonius
2020-03-19, 01:48 PM
Yeah, I'd say low tier 3.

The class skill list is a bit odd. Some nice social skills there, plus Perform (?) but no Spot or Listen.

Overwhelming Attack seems kind of underwhelming. Without seeing the math first, I'd think that it would only be useful if you're pretty sure you'll hit on your first attack but miss on your three iteratives. I don't think that situation is going to come up all that often. Even if it does, I might just take my chances on hitting with a natural 20 for the other three iteratives.

Nice capstone though.

AvatarVecna
2020-03-19, 02:00 PM
Yeah, I'd say low tier 3.

The class skill list is a bit odd. Some nice social skills there, plus Perform (?) but no Spot or Listen.

Overwhelming Attack seems kind of underwhelming. Without seeing the math first, I'd think that it would only be useful if you're pretty sure you'll hit on your first attack but miss on your three iteratives. I don't think that situation is going to come up all that often. Even if it does, I might just take my chances on hitting with a natural 20 for the other three iteratives.

Nice capstone though.

Extending Dungeoncrasher to keep competitive with full attacks made sense to me, and if you get SA full attacks are better again.

I think the real advantage to overwhelming attack is on an attack of opportunity build.

Cerefel
2020-03-19, 02:00 PM
Overwhelming Attack seems kind of underwhelming. Without seeing the math first, I'd think that it would only be useful if you're pretty sure you'll hit on your first attack but miss on your three iteratives. I don't think that situation is going to come up all that often. Even if it does, I might just take my chances on hitting with a natural 20 for the other three iteratives.

Don't forget that it also boosts your damage for all attacks that you make until your next turn, which makes it potentially very good for AoO builds.

EDIT: ninja'd

Biggus
2020-03-19, 02:37 PM
Probably very top of tier 4, very low tier 3 if not.

MaxiDuRaritry
2020-03-19, 02:58 PM
Why do fighters never have knowledges that help in dealing with he creatures they fight? This one knows outsiders, humanoids, oozes, and aberrations, and pretty much nothing else, even if they spend all their time fighting giants and goblinoids.

Also needs either more skill points or more Int-based stuff to compensate. Or maybe a Knowledge (Opponents) skill that is an amalgamation of all Knowledge skills, but only when it comes to IDing creatures and their abilities, strengths, and weaknesses, and gaining benefits from abilities like Knowledge Devotion and the archivist's dark knowledge. (Also needs Spot and Listen, at least.)

Of course, that's assuming you're building an actual class and not just making a fighter with all the ACFs you want.

AvatarVecna
2020-03-19, 03:07 PM
Of course, that's assuming you're building an actual class and not just making a fighter with all the ACFs you want.

Essentially. Was curious what taking the existing material and building on it a bit would change, without too many actual chassis changes. That the skill list ends up with these huge holes is...really weird.

Kelb_Panthera
2020-03-19, 04:10 PM
I know there was that project to rewrite the criteria for tiers but I wasn't aware that it had taken quite such a firm hold or that it redefined things to such an extent that -this- is being called high T4 to low T3.

By the old criteria, I'd peg this somewhere beween high T5 and low T4. It's got a bunch of low-end stuff that's moderately helpful but trying to focus it on any one thing is gonna yield middling results. It's better than the actual fighter class that it was very plainly based on but it's gonna fall behind a moderately optimized barbarian pretty quickly.

The +2 to con and str feature is a little weird, btw. There are -very- few things in the system that just give a flat ability increase and none of them give much else with it, much less all at one level, and many even have substantial drawbacks to offset such a potentially potent boost.

Finally, shouldn't this be in the homebrew forum?

MaxiDuRaritry
2020-03-19, 04:31 PM
I know there was that project to rewrite the criteria for tiers but I wasn't aware that it had taken quite such a firm hold or that it redefined things to such an extent that -this- is being called high T4 to low T3.

By the old criteria, I'd peg this somewhere beween high T5 and low T4. It's got a bunch of low-end stuff that's moderately helpful but trying to focus it on any one thing is gonna yield middling results. It's better than the actual fighter class that it was very plainly based on but it's gonna fall behind a moderately optimized barbarian pretty quickly.

The +2 to con and str feature is a little weird, btw. There are -very- few things in the system that just give a flat ability increase and none of them give much else with it, much less all at one level, and many even have substantial drawbacks to offset such a potentially potent boost.

Finally, shouldn't this be in the homebrew forum?As noted, this is simply a fighter build using a ton of ACFs, perhaps with the features moved around a bit to keep from frontloading it as much.

So it's basically a build thread billed (heh) as a class.

Thunder999
2020-03-19, 07:36 PM
Probably tier 4, it's got some nice tricks, it makes both the fighter and rogue pretty irrelevant (trapfinding being the only thing it doesn't do better), but doesn't offer much real utility, it's a decent enough face character, but lacks any sort of cha synergy. Not sure what the point of armoured mage is, you either don't have enough levels of veteran for it to apply to all your spells, or have so many levels of veteran your casting is too far behind to be much use, not to mention the fact that 0 ASF light armour exists.

Gnaeus
2020-03-19, 09:17 PM
High 4. Numbers do help. Fighter is only borderline because it’s easy to screw up. Even without bonus feats I think this would be low 4. With a reliable source of sneak attack should deal overwhelming damage.

It will still need solutions for basic melee problems. But increased baseline competence (especially in combat) should (in a magic mart game) give it more money to do that with. Still, requires specific gear it can’t make, and is vulnerable to low magic or wealth, both of which suggest 4.

rel
2020-03-20, 12:09 AM
Tier 4, maybe only tier 5.

No great class skills, no out of combat abilities beyond the intimidate power and breaking things.
Pretty MAD all things considered.
no amazing synergies or tricks that I can see.

Basically, it hits things good but doesn't seem to do much else.